LDS Freedom Forum

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

jdtech wrote: ↑March 12th, 2018, 12:36 pm The First Presidency is absolutely a separate "office" from that of the quorum of the twelve. Whether or not they have already been sustained as "prophets, seers and revelators" is irrelevant.

D&C 107:22

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

As a separate office, it would only make sense that a regular sustaining to that calling be made prior to the ordination actually taking place...just as it is done with any local or stake calling. The church follows this process all the way up to the Q of 12. There are no new apostles called outside of a general conference.
You might not recall Elder Holland. Ordained, then sustained.

Anywho, there is no Priesthood office of First President, or First Presidency. An Apostle is the highest office here on this world. All Priesthood offices typically require a sustaining vote prior to ordination. Quorum assignments are typically done in their own quorums. The ward or church sustains after the fact. The First Presidency comes from the quorum of the 12, so all sustaining votes are done within the quorum, then the ordinations take place. The church then sustains or opposes.This same process works in the other quorums. It's not unique to the first presidency. If you're an active Priesthood holder you'll recall how this process has worked in your own quorum. When I was called into the Elders Quorum presidency, a member of the stake presidency showed up to Elders Quorum, released the old presidency and called for a sustaining vote of the new presidency. Then we were ordained. The ward had nothing to do with it. Same thing with my son who is the Deacons Quorum president, other than it was the Bishop and not the Stake Presidency. If you pay attention at church you'll recognize this pattern.

It appears though that this way of ordaining the church president without first sustaining them by the general members began with Lorenzo Snow.
https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/ ... presidents
He acted immediately to re-constitute the first presidency, while the previous presidents did not...and in fact there was some significant push-back originally by those of Brigham Young's day wether or not they even should re-constitute a first presidency.

Just because tradition holds that the first presidency can be ordained to their new office before a sustaining takes place doesn't mean that it is scriptural or correct.

22 Of the Melchizedek Priesthood, three Presiding High Priests, chosen by the body, appointed and ordained to that office, and upheld by the confidence, faith, and prayer of the church, form a quorum of the Presidency of the Church.

jdtech wrote: ↑March 12th, 2018, 10:25 pm I think I understand your perspective now. You're thinking that because those in the first presidency are apostles, and are part of the quorum of the 12, that they have the ability to choose who leads them...and just like a deacon's quorum will sustain their president, that the Q of 12 will sustain and ordain their president.

Here is the problem as I see it. A deacon's quorum president does NOT preside over the elders. The EQ President does not preside over the rest of the ward. As such, those quorums do indeed sustain their new president's without the consent of the rest of the ward. A bishop however, who does preside in the ward, is called and sustained by those he presides over BEFORE the ordination takes place. The first presidency certainly does preside over the entire church, and as D&C 107:22 indicates, is an office in the church (NOT necessarily an office in the priesthood)! Therefore, the ordination to that calling should occur AFTER a sustaining vote...as indicated by D&C 20:65

By the way - I'm not sure how you can interpret D&C 107:22 saying "that office" to mean that a calling to the first presidency is NOT an office in the church. I think we can agree that there are "offices" of the priesthood, and that there are other "offices" of the church.

Also - is a primary worker or nursery leader an "office" in the church? And yet, everyone seems to understand that a calling and sustaining vote should most certainly occur prior to those who accept those calls being set-apart in their respective callings.

I would love to see scriptural citation that the first presidency is to be called and set-apart by the Q of 12, or that once the president dies that those councilors in the first presidency return to their respective places in the quorum. Instead I think we have a lot of tradition that holds sway in how we do things in the church. D&C 107:22 indicates that the members of the first presidency quorum are called from "the body"...which can mean pretty much anything, and most likely refers simply to the body of the priesthood. In Joseph's day there were no members of the Q of 12 apostles called into that 3 person quorum. Also, it is quite understood that if just Joseph had died that Hyrum would have been president of the church, likely calling two new councilors who were not current members of the Q of 12.

drtanner wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 1:11 am

jdtech wrote: ↑March 12th, 2018, 10:25 pm I think I understand your perspective now. You're thinking that because those in the first presidency are apostles, and are part of the quorum of the 12, that they have the ability to choose who leads them...and just like a deacon's quorum will sustain their president, that the Q of 12 will sustain and ordain their president.

Here is the problem as I see it. A deacon's quorum president does NOT preside over the elders. The EQ President does not preside over the rest of the ward. As such, those quorums do indeed sustain their new president's without the consent of the rest of the ward. A bishop however, who does preside in the ward, is called and sustained by those he presides over BEFORE the ordination takes place. The first presidency certainly does preside over the entire church, and as D&C 107:22 indicates, is an office in the church (NOT necessarily an office in the priesthood)! Therefore, the ordination to that calling should occur AFTER a sustaining vote...as indicated by D&C 20:65

By the way - I'm not sure how you can interpret D&C 107:22 saying "that office" to mean that a calling to the first presidency is NOT an office in the church. I think we can agree that there are "offices" of the priesthood, and that there are other "offices" of the church.

Also - is a primary worker or nursery leader an "office" in the church? And yet, everyone seems to understand that a calling and sustaining vote should most certainly occur prior to those who accept those calls being set-apart in their respective callings.

I would love to see scriptural citation that the first presidency is to be called and set-apart by the Q of 12, or that once the president dies that those councilors in the first presidency return to their respective places in the quorum. Instead I think we have a lot of tradition that holds sway in how we do things in the church. D&C 107:22 indicates that the members of the first presidency quorum are called from "the body"...which can mean pretty much anything, and most likely refers simply to the body of the priesthood. In Joseph's day there were no members of the Q of 12 apostles called into that 3 person quorum. Also, it is quite understood that if just Joseph had died that Hyrum would have been president of the church, likely calling two new councilors who were not current members of the Q of 12.

Would it really make you feel better if it were done in conference? With the worldwide church we have now how do you see this happening according to your interpretations of the scriptures?

jdtech wrote: ↑March 12th, 2018, 10:25 pm I think I understand your perspective now. You're thinking that because those in the first presidency are apostles, and are part of the quorum of the 12, that they have the ability to choose who leads them...and just like a deacon's quorum will sustain their president, that the Q of 12 will sustain and ordain their president.

Here is the problem as I see it. A deacon's quorum president does NOT preside over the elders. The EQ President does not preside over the rest of the ward. As such, those quorums do indeed sustain their new president's without the consent of the rest of the ward. A bishop however, who does preside in the ward, is called and sustained by those he presides over BEFORE the ordination takes place. The first presidency certainly does preside over the entire church, and as D&C 107:22 indicates, is an office in the church (NOT necessarily an office in the priesthood)! Therefore, the ordination to that calling should occur AFTER a sustaining vote...as indicated by D&C 20:65

By the way - I'm not sure how you can interpret D&C 107:22 saying "that office" to mean that a calling to the first presidency is NOT an office in the church. I think we can agree that there are "offices" of the priesthood, and that there are other "offices" of the church.

Also - is a primary worker or nursery leader an "office" in the church? And yet, everyone seems to understand that a calling and sustaining vote should most certainly occur prior to those who accept those calls being set-apart in their respective callings.

I would love to see scriptural citation that the first presidency is to be called and set-apart by the Q of 12, or that once the president dies that those councilors in the first presidency return to their respective places in the quorum. Instead I think we have a lot of tradition that holds sway in how we do things in the church. D&C 107:22 indicates that the members of the first presidency quorum are called from "the body"...which can mean pretty much anything, and most likely refers simply to the body of the priesthood. In Joseph's day there were no members of the Q of 12 apostles called into that 3 person quorum. Also, it is quite understood that if just Joseph had died that Hyrum would have been president of the church, likely calling two new councilors who were not current members of the Q of 12.

investigator wrote: ↑March 11th, 2018, 10:09 am

2 Ne 28: 14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Nephi saw our day and prophesied about it. He said that all would go astray except a few who were the humble followers of Christ. Those humble followers of Christ cannot be the leaders of the LDS or any church because Nephi continues and tells us that even those few humble followers of Christ make mistakes because of their leaders who teach them the precepts of men.

You condemn those who do not sustain the leaders of the church to hell, when in reality, according to the prophecy of Nephi, it is the leaders who should be worrying about condemnation.

Kiwi57 wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 5:40 pm Your reading is defective. The third "they" refers to the same group as the first and second, not the humble followers, who are listed parenthetically as an exception.

Mormon 8: 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

investigator wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 9:12 pm Okay, here we go, right off with labeling me defective.

Kiwi57 wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 5:40 pm Your reading is defective. The third "they" refers to the same group as the first and second, not the humble followers, who are listed parenthetically as an exception.

Kiwi57
I suppose that you will deny that the Lord is speaking about the Latter-day church in the following verse, even though he specifically calls out the holy church of God? Is there a another church the lord would characterize as holy? Let's see how you interpret this one? Why is it so hard for people to admit that the church is under condemnation when the scriptures and even the Latter-day leaders of the church to include President Benson and Elder Oaks openly admit it. Here again the Lord talks about the few just like the verse in 2Nephi 28:

Mormon 8: 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 12:59 am

investigator wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 9:12 pm Okay, here we go, right off with labeling me defective.

Kiwi57 wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 5:40 pm Your reading is defective. The third "they" refers to the same group as the first and second, not the humble followers, who are listed parenthetically as an exception.

Kiwi57
I suppose that you will deny that the Lord is speaking about the Latter-day church in the following verse, even though he specifically calls out the holy church of God? Is there a another church the lord would characterize as holy? Let's see how you interpret this one? Why is it so hard for people to admit that the church is under condemnation when the scriptures and even the Latter-day leaders of the church to include President Benson and Elder Oaks openly admit it. Here again the Lord talks about the few just like the verse in 2Nephi 28:

Mormon 8: 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

These verses are not talking about the church today. They are talking about the churches in “that” day meaning the day(s) the Book of Mormon was brought forward. The condemnation mentioned by elder oaks,benson and the D&C have nothing to do with the church not being true.

We sense that the only thing Moroni is living for is to complete the record, as he writes, “Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.” (Morm. 8:4.)

All he has is the faith that the Lord will preserve him long enough to complete the record and that someday it will be found by one chosen of the Lord. He realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the members of the Church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)--Elder L. Tom Perry, General Conference Oct. 1992

Years before Elder Perry made these comments Elder H. Verlan Anderson also taught that these verses in the Book of Mormon referred to the LDS church. He said,

Moroni was similarly explicit in predicting false teachings among the saints. Reflect upon the unmistakable implications of this point-blank indictment of members of the “holy church of God:”

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?” (Mormon 8:38)

Since there is only one “holy church of God” on earth, and since it is being polluted, the blame therefore appears to rest upon the teachers and hypocrites within that church. -- The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, pp. 170-171

Saints must keep the covenant of consecration. The Lord has blessed us as a people with a prosperity unequaled in times past. The resources that have been placed in our power are good, and necessary to our work here on the earth. But I am afraid that many of us have been surfeited with flocks and herds and acres and barns and wealth and have begun to worship them as false gods, and they have power over us. Do we have more of these good things than our faith can stand? Many people spend most of their time working in the service of a self image that includes sufficient money, stocks, bonds, investment portfolios, property, credit cards, furnishings, automobiles, and the like to guarantee carnal security throughout, it is hoped, a long and happy life. Forgotten is the fact that our assignment is to use these many resources in our families and quorums to build up the kingdom of God—to further the missionary effort and the genealogical and temple work; to raise our children up as fruitful servants unto the Lord; to bless others in every way, that they may also be fruitful. Instead, we expend these blessings on our own desires, and as Moroni said, “Ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not.” (Mormon 8:39.) --The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.357

marc wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 5:05 am

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 12:59 am

investigator wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 9:12 pm Okay, here we go, right off with labeling me defective.

Kiwi57 wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 5:40 pm Your reading is defective. The third "they" refers to the same group as the first and second, not the humble followers, who are listed parenthetically as an exception.

Kiwi57
I suppose that you will deny that the Lord is speaking about the Latter-day church in the following verse, even though he specifically calls out the holy church of God? Is there a another church the lord would characterize as holy? Let's see how you interpret this one? Why is it so hard for people to admit that the church is under condemnation when the scriptures and even the Latter-day leaders of the church to include President Benson and Elder Oaks openly admit it. Here again the Lord talks about the few just like the verse in 2Nephi 28:

Mormon 8: 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

These verses are not talking about the church today. They are talking about the churches in “that” day meaning the day(s) the Book of Mormon was brought forward. The condemnation mentioned by elder oaks,benson and the D&C have nothing to do with the church not being true.

May I offer some clarification? I personally do believe Mormon 8 is aimed directly at us in the church. Elder Perry also claims the same. In a General Conference talk, he said,

We sense that the only thing Moroni is living for is to complete the record, as he writes, “Therefore I will write and hide up the records in the earth; and whither I go it mattereth not.” (Morm. 8:4.)

All he has is the faith that the Lord will preserve him long enough to complete the record and that someday it will be found by one chosen of the Lord. He realizes that the record will be a voice of warning to future generations of what occurs when nations like his own turn away from the teachings of the Lord. It is from the depths of his heart that Moroni cries out to those who will eventually receive the record. He wants to spare those who read his account the heartache and misery which comes from disobedience.

He writes first to the members of the Church and then to those who have not embraced the gospel of Jesus Christ. Moroni’s last words to the members of the Church are written as a voice of warning. He writes as one who sees the history of his people repeating itself in the future. From the Book of Mormon we read:

“Behold, the Lord hath shown unto me great and marvelous things concerning that which must shortly come, at that day when these things shall come forth among you.

“Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

“And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

“For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?” (Morm. 8:34–38.)--Elder L. Tom Perry, General Conference Oct. 1992

Furthermore,

Years before Elder Perry made these comments Elder H. Verlan Anderson also taught that these verses in the Book of Mormon referred to the LDS church. He said,

Moroni was similarly explicit in predicting false teachings among the saints. Reflect upon the unmistakable implications of this point-blank indictment of members of the “holy church of God:”

“O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God?” (Mormon 8:38)

Since there is only one “holy church of God” on earth, and since it is being polluted, the blame therefore appears to rest upon the teachers and hypocrites within that church. -- The Great and Abominable Church of the Devil, pp. 170-171

President Spencer W. Kimball also associated these verses with the Latter-day Saints.

Saints must keep the covenant of consecration. The Lord has blessed us as a people with a prosperity unequaled in times past. The resources that have been placed in our power are good, and necessary to our work here on the earth. But I am afraid that many of us have been surfeited with flocks and herds and acres and barns and wealth and have begun to worship them as false gods, and they have power over us. Do we have more of these good things than our faith can stand? Many people spend most of their time working in the service of a self image that includes sufficient money, stocks, bonds, investment portfolios, property, credit cards, furnishings, automobiles, and the like to guarantee carnal security throughout, it is hoped, a long and happy life. Forgotten is the fact that our assignment is to use these many resources in our families and quorums to build up the kingdom of God—to further the missionary effort and the genealogical and temple work; to raise our children up as fruitful servants unto the Lord; to bless others in every way, that they may also be fruitful. Instead, we expend these blessings on our own desires, and as Moroni said, “Ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not.” (Mormon 8:39.) --The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.357

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 12:59 am

investigator wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 9:12 pm Okay, here we go, right off with labeling me defective.

Kiwi57 wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 5:40 pm Your reading is defective. The third "they" refers to the same group as the first and second, not the humble followers, who are listed parenthetically as an exception.

Kiwi57
I suppose that you will deny that the Lord is speaking about the Latter-day church in the following verse, even though he specifically calls out the holy church of God? Is there a another church the lord would characterize as holy? Let's see how you interpret this one? Why is it so hard for people to admit that the church is under condemnation when the scriptures and even the Latter-day leaders of the church to include President Benson and Elder Oaks openly admit it. Here again the Lord talks about the few just like the verse in 2Nephi 28:

Mormon 8: 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

These verses are not talking about the church today. They are talking about the churches in “that” day meaning the day(s) the Book of Mormon was brought forward. The condemnation mentioned by elder oaks,benson and the D&C have nothing to do with the church not being true.

Finrock wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 9:09 am

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 12:59 am

investigator wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 9:12 pm Okay, here we go, right off with labeling me defective.

Kiwi57 wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 5:40 pm Your reading is defective. The third "they" refers to the same group as the first and second, not the humble followers, who are listed parenthetically as an exception.

Kiwi57
I suppose that you will deny that the Lord is speaking about the Latter-day church in the following verse, even though he specifically calls out the holy church of God? Is there a another church the lord would characterize as holy? Let's see how you interpret this one? Why is it so hard for people to admit that the church is under condemnation when the scriptures and even the Latter-day leaders of the church to include President Benson and Elder Oaks openly admit it. Here again the Lord talks about the few just like the verse in 2Nephi 28:

Mormon 8: 36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

These verses are not talking about the church today. They are talking about the churches in “that” day meaning the day(s) the Book of Mormon was brought forward. The condemnation mentioned by elder oaks,benson and the D&C have nothing to do with the church not being true.

The prophecies of the Book of Mormon were specifically placed in to the book so that we, in the latter-days, would be able to recognize things for how they are. The Book of Mormon shows us a pattern that happens with God's Church on earth. It goes through periods of apostasy/condemnation and periods of enlightenment/blessing. Over and over again the Church of God on earth in the Book of Mormon allowed pride, haughtiness, wickedness to enter in. That is because of the general wickedness of the people who were members of the Church. This pattern is not just a frivolous, neat to know historical fact about an ancient Church that has no bearing on us today. This pattern is being shown in the Book of Mormon for a purpose, because this pattern of apostasy is relevant to the Church in the Latter-days. The warnings, the prophecies, the guidance, the direction, the counsel, the examples, all of it, in the Book of Mormon, applies to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its members today. I believe one of the reasons why President Benson taught that we have neglected the Book of Mormon and are therefore condemned is because we have treated the Book of Mormon as a text relevant to another time or relevant to a different people as opposed to recognizing that the blessings and the condemnations in the Book of Mormon are talking about and relevant to us, today, and the Church, today. Why wouldn't we be condemned if we are treating portions of the Book of Mormon that are applicable to us today as if they didn't exist? Imagine, regardless of your belief, if God placed specific prophecies, counsel, and warnings to us in the Book of Mormon, but we completely ignored those prophecies, counsel, and warnings because we thought they didn't apply to us. A prophet would be justified in saying at that point that we are neglecting the Book of Mormon and are under condemnation for treating it lightly.

-Finrock

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 8:48 am
I agree with what those men say. They are not saying the church isn’t true which is what the post is implying. Are you or investigator implying the authority to administer ordinances are found outside of the church? Just want to clarify.

shadow wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 11:48 am

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 8:48 am
I agree with what those men say. They are not saying the church isn’t true which is what the post is implying. Are you or investigator implying the authority to administer ordinances are found outside of the church? Just want to clarify.

There are plenty of people who will carefully say one thing but not mean it. Yes, Marc implies that authority to administer ordinances are found outside the church. His most recent baptism was performed by someone outside of the church.

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 12:43 pmFinrock, Investigator, Marc

What are your beliefs about the church? Why is it so hard to just give a straight forward answer?

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?...

marc wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 2:59 pm

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 12:43 pmFinrock, Investigator, Marc

What are your beliefs about the church? Why is it so hard to just give a straight forward answer?

I have given straightforward answers over the last several years. To recap my belief about the church is we are not yet redeemed because we, as a whole, are not living up to our covenants, and are as the prophets of the BoM warned. Claiming authority and priesthood and all that we do does not vindicate the saints today any more than it did anciently. They also had priesthood, ordinances, temples (from the time of Moses through to Jesus Christ's resurrection), but remained unredeemed except some few, which is also a reflection of what Moroni saw in us. And just as the ancient saints were overrun by the world powers of the day, the saints in our day will face the same/similar scourge. All is not well in Zion. It has not been well for almost 200 years.

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What we as a the true church should look like can be found in 4 Nephi 1, which gives us a glimpse of how the people of the City of Enoch lived. It is why Moroni lamented when he saw the "holy church of God" in the last days, saying:

35 Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not. But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing.

36 And I know that ye do walk in the pride of your hearts; and there are none save a few only who do not lift themselves up in the pride of their hearts, unto the wearing of very fine apparel, unto envying, and strifes, and malice, and persecutions, and all manner of iniquities; and your churches, yea, even every one, have become polluted because of the pride of your hearts.

37 For behold, ye do love money, and your substance, and your fine apparel, and the adorning of your churches, more than ye love the poor and the needy, the sick and the afflicted.

38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

39 Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life, and yet suffer the hungry, and the needy, and the naked, and the sick and the afflicted to pass by you, and notice them not?...

And many General Authorities in our dispensation have also warned us. So it's not just me or Finrock or whoever else. We have all been warned over and over again. My voice is just a small one among many greater voices of "authority." I don't know how much more straightforward I can be than to say I see a problem. All of us who have been endowed in the temple have covenanted to obey five laws including the law of consecration. We who are the true church are not living the law of consecration as a whole. We are asked if we are tithe payers in our temple recommend interviews, but are not asked if we live the law of consecration. We are living below our full obligation as a people. If we as a people possessed the fullness of the priesthood, mountains would be moving. Armies would be fleeing. Rivers would change course before us. More of us would be conversing with angels and heaven and being on heavenly errands to redeem Zion. Priesthood is SO much more than just blessing bread and water every Sunday and baptizing eight year olds and administering covenants to live important laws.

The talent will soon be given back to a remnant of Jews.

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 3:59 pmI guess what I am trying to clarify is this. If someone does meet the qualifications outlined by Christ but still needs ordinances. COULD they receive valid ordinances in the lds church today? Does that authority exist in the church or do you believe it is gone because of the condemnation? Or do you believe it does not matter where they receive those ordinances and who they receive them from? That is the confusing part that I feel I can never get a straight forward answer on.

marc wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 4:14 pm I agree that there are some few who do consecrate with all their hearts and striving to do their best in this regard.

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 3:59 pmI guess what I am trying to clarify is this. If someone does meet the qualifications outlined by Christ but still needs ordinances. COULD they receive valid ordinances in the lds church today? Does that authority exist in the church or do you believe it is gone because of the condemnation? Or do you believe it does not matter where they receive those ordinances and who they receive them from? That is the confusing part that I feel I can never get a straight forward answer on.

I certainly believe ordinances in the church are valid today. I do not equate our condemnation with lack of authority. This might be where our communication is lacking, or at least on my part to clarify better. Even when Joseph Smith was alive, the church was under condemnation. The saints were polluting their inheritances with their pride and vanity and unbelief, all of which caused them not to engage in the work of redemption. This unbelief continues today and it is our collective unbelief and pride and vanity that prevents us from humbling ourselves to the dust and doing what we are "authorized" to do: redeem Zion.

investigator wrote: ↑March 13th, 2018, 9:12 pm Okay, here we go, right off with labeling me defective.

shadow wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 8:17 pm

marc wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 4:14 pm I agree that there are some few who do consecrate with all their hearts and striving to do their best in this regard.

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 3:59 pmI guess what I am trying to clarify is this. If someone does meet the qualifications outlined by Christ but still needs ordinances. COULD they receive valid ordinances in the lds church today? Does that authority exist in the church or do you believe it is gone because of the condemnation? Or do you believe it does not matter where they receive those ordinances and who they receive them from? That is the confusing part that I feel I can never get a straight forward answer on.

I certainly believe ordinances in the church are valid today. I do not equate our condemnation with lack of authority. This might be where our communication is lacking, or at least on my part to clarify better. Even when Joseph Smith was alive, the church was under condemnation. The saints were polluting their inheritances with their pride and vanity and unbelief, all of which caused them not to engage in the work of redemption. This unbelief continues today and it is our collective unbelief and pride and vanity that prevents us from humbling ourselves to the dust and doing what we are "authorized" to do: redeem Zion.

I think drtanner is trying to nail you down on where to go to get valid ordinances. I think he's trying to ask if you believe you can get them elsewhere other than through the church. You aught to just be frank with him and tell him you went to some dude outside the church to be baptized. That way he can see that you don't believe that only the church is authorized to carry out Priesthood responsibilities. I'm not sure if you're not understanding him or if you're purposefully being ambiguous.

Lecture on Faith 6:5 For a man to lay down his all, his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, requires more than mere belief, or supposition that he is doing the will of God, but actual knowledge: realizing, that when these sufferings are ended he will enter into eternal rest; and be a partaker of the glory of God.

marc wrote: ↑March 16th, 2018, 5:07 am

shadow wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 8:17 pm

marc wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 4:14 pm I agree that there are some few who do consecrate with all their hearts and striving to do their best in this regard.

drtanner wrote: ↑March 15th, 2018, 3:59 pmI guess what I am trying to clarify is this. If someone does meet the qualifications outlined by Christ but still needs ordinances. COULD they receive valid ordinances in the lds church today? Does that authority exist in the church or do you believe it is gone because of the condemnation? Or do you believe it does not matter where they receive those ordinances and who they receive them from? That is the confusing part that I feel I can never get a straight forward answer on.

I certainly believe ordinances in the church are valid today. I do not equate our condemnation with lack of authority. This might be where our communication is lacking, or at least on my part to clarify better. Even when Joseph Smith was alive, the church was under condemnation. The saints were polluting their inheritances with their pride and vanity and unbelief, all of which caused them not to engage in the work of redemption. This unbelief continues today and it is our collective unbelief and pride and vanity that prevents us from humbling ourselves to the dust and doing what we are "authorized" to do: redeem Zion.

I think drtanner is trying to nail you down on where to go to get valid ordinances. I think he's trying to ask if you believe you can get them elsewhere other than through the church. You aught to just be frank with him and tell him you went to some dude outside the church to be baptized. That way he can see that you don't believe that only the church is authorized to carry out Priesthood responsibilities. I'm not sure if you're not understanding him or if you're purposefully being ambiguous.

Shadow, I have shared my life's story with drtanner, so he knows almost everything about me. But to address your comment about my being ambiguous, I also believe that whatever the Lord requires, He authorizes. Scriptures are filled with examples of servants being required to obey the Lord that sometimes lie outside the scope of "church" authority. If people (church members) in general weren't so judgmental (pharisaical), I might have shared my story publicly already. But I will not put myself out there to be mocked unless the Lord requires it of me. Only then will I do it gladly.

Lecture on Faith 6:5 For a man to lay down his all, his character and reputation, his honor and applause, his good name among men, his houses, his lands, his brothers and sisters, his wife and children, and even his own life also, counting all things but filth and dross for the excellency of the knowledge of Jesus Christ, requires more than mere belief, or supposition that he is doing the will of God, but actual knowledge: realizing, that when these sufferings are ended he will enter into eternal rest; and be a partaker of the glory of God.

shadow wrote: ↑March 16th, 2018, 8:08 am Nobody is mocking you. drtanner asked a straightforward question and your response didn't address it. I'm just trying to help the guy out.

And yes, whatever the Lord requires, He authorizes- so long as it's accomplished in the way He requires it. He requires baptism, but only by authorized servants. Most Christian religions believe they are authorized, yet Joseph Smith had Priesthood keys restored to him and passed those keys down to the current presiding High Priest. Plenty of people sincerely believe the Lord requires them to do strange things. I've read accounts of murderers and rapists claiming God told them to do it. Jim Jones thought he was doing God's will and just as importantly, his followers thought they had God's approval too. They were just as sincere as you or I, but they obviously were NOT following God- they were deceived. It happens, even to elect folks.
I'm not here to argue your recent baptism, just pointing out to drtanner that you believe you can go outside the church for ordinances. That's the question he asked.

Judges 3:14 So the children of Israel served Eglon the king of Moab eighteen years.

15 But when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.

16 But Ehud made him a dagger which had two edges, of a cubit length; and he did gird it under his raiment upon his right thigh.

17 And he brought the present unto Eglon king of Moab: and Eglon was a very fat man.

18 And when he had made an end to offer the present, he sent away the people that bare the present.

19 But he himself turned again from the quarries that were by Gilgal, and said, I have a secret errand unto thee, O king: who said, Keep silence. And all that stood by him went out from him.

20 And Ehud came unto him; and he was sitting in a summer parlour, which he had for himself alone. And Ehud said, I have a message from God unto thee. And he arose out of his seat.

21 And Ehud put forth his left hand, and took the dagger from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly:

22 And the haft also went in after the blade; and the fat closed upon the blade, so that he could not draw the dagger out of his belly; and the dirt came out.

23 Then Ehud went forth through the porch, and shut the doors of the parlour upon him, and locked them.

24 When he was gone out, his servants came; and when they saw that, behold, the doors of the parlour were locked, they said, Surely he covereth his feet in his summer chamber.

25 And they tarried till they were ashamed: and, behold, he opened not the doors of the parlour; therefore they took a key, and opened them: and, behold, their lord was fallen down dead on the earth.

26 And Ehud escaped while they tarried, and passed beyond the quarries, and escaped unto Seirath.

27 And it came to pass, when he was come, that he blew a trumpet in the mountain of Ephraim, and the children of Israel went down with him from the mount, and he before them.

28 And he said unto them, Follow after me: for the Lord hath delivered your enemies the Moabites into your hand. And they went down after him, and took the fords of Jordan toward Moab, and suffered not a man to pass over.