LDS Freedom Forum

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 8th, 2018, 10:38 am My responses in BLUE:

TrueIntent wrote: ↑March 7th, 2018, 8:35 pm

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 7th, 2018, 6:30 pm

TrueIntent wrote: ↑March 7th, 2018, 1:26 pm

Abijah pulled quite a bit from the scriptures. Are the scriptures not LDS cannon? He's just offering thoughts on interpretation, just like everyone else does on the forum. He said he doesn't know if what he says is true...unlike some people who claim truth not really knowing if it's even from the scriptures. While I don't agree with everything he posted, it sounds like it was well thought out. He has an understanding of Old Testament influence and ancient cultures...which is what I would argue many lack (specifically LDS). He did pull from themes of the scriptures. You just may not be aware of them.

Where did he share scriptures (I'm not sure there were any references--did you see some actual scriptural references cited?), other than a couple of psalms and mentioning Leviticus in general? He did refer to some people in scriptures, such as Abraham, Adam and Eve and the serpent, Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, but I'm curious of the sources he's reading in regards to his thoughts on these.

His reference to Innana and Dumizid, is not in the bible, it's pagan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna

Heiro gamos is not something that I believe would have been approved of in ancient times, by worshipers of Jehovah, since it was also a pagan practice, associated with the groves.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/hieros-gamos

And we've got no proof that Jesus was married to anyone, so all that about Jesus and Mary of Bethany is speculation, that's not in the canon.

I asked what he was advocating, because of his speculation over incest being a higher form of marriage and references to heiros gamos.

He interpreting meaning from scriptures.....you know...like we are supposed to do when we read Isaiah. I don't think you know very much about scripture or church history based on what you are saying in regards to this discussion...I don't know you but I think your remarks don't make sense. Because you say he doesnt follow LDS cannon, and yet some of what you are saying, like "jesus wasn't married"...is found in journal of discourse...In fact you will find that some of the brethren taught he was married as a polygamous...NOW I DON"T BELIEVE THAT, but it was still taught by apostles in the early church. So just because you don't believe it's in LDS cannon doesnt mean it wasn't taught.

I'm certain I don't know as much about the scriptures or church history--there are a lot of people on this forum alone who know a ton more than me.

Sorry, I do have to offer a correction. The word is 'canon'--and the Journal of Discourses is not part of LDS canon. I do know that many early church leaders believed Jesus was married, and some believed he was married to Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus. But, that's not part of our canon--it's speculation so it doesn't have the authority of scriptures, such as the D&C, New Testament, etc. And, you don't have to believe it, since it's in the Journal of Discourses, you are free to reject their speculations.

What I need is to know where Abijah is coming up with his theories--I had to look on the internet to find out more, because either I really don't know the Old testament, or a lot of what he's sharing isn't in it.


He is referencing scripture and their parallels to other cultures. You will find that pagan worship is all over the old testament as well. I have studied both. An example is "Hades" being referred to in the new testament. Hades is from mythology. And Rahab and the dragon in the old testament.....just because pagan worship wasn't allowed doesnt mean that prophets of the old testament didn't use it as a reference to teach understanding. Its exactly what Abijah is doing. Using it as a reference for understanding. The tree of life is found in every single ancient culture...is that pagan too? Maybe there is overlap, which is what Abijah is saying in his post. I also believe that there is a thread of truth that exists in all ancient cultures, which is why I enjoyed his post. And you may not recognize when he is referring to scripture without quoting it because you haven't studied the way we study. For example...when he referred to opposites and opposition in all things, that phrase is in the scriptures, even though he didn't cite the specific scripture. His entire post is making parallels of various cultures and their worship to the scriptures. This is a stupid discussion, and you made an ignorant remark so I called you out. You were trying to make someone else feel dumb, and so I am just sticking up for them, and letting you know you got it wrong.

Yes, Rahab is in the Old testament, but not in the context which I can tell that Abijah is referring to, as far as I can see. Rahab and the dragon is medieval jewish folklore, I believe. I'm not saying he's wrong, but I think that references are helpful so I know what texts he's looking at, so I know how valuable the sources are--the sources make a difference to me.

And Yes, Pagan worship is in the old testament, but it's considered 'bad', not something to find spiritual truths in. I'm not saying that it couldn't have been twisted, but arisen out of true forms of worship, but I will say, if it involves claiming the the 'true form of worship' included prostitution or sexual relations being part of a religious worship, I would reject that. The idea of incest being some kind of holy union reminded me of the Kingston clan--they are polygamists who believe they need to keep the bloodlines pure by marrying their own family members--I'm not saying he's advocating this, but I was asking where his theories might take us. If embraced by some today, could they lead to something like the Kingstons believe?

That's why I was asking for clarification on what he is advocating and for the sources he's using. We get a lot of posters with views I find very strange--I like to know what the person is trying to teach us or prove to us. I wasn't trying to make anyone feel dumb. I'd just like more references and an idea of where he's going with his theories and how they are pertinent to LDS doctrine.

But, it seems that others don't need this to enjoy the discussion so I'll leave you to it.

The idea of incest being some kind of holy union reminded me of the Kingston clan--they are polygamists who believe they need to keep the bloodlines pure by marrying their own family members--

Crackers wrote: ↑March 8th, 2018, 2:25 pm

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑March 8th, 2018, 2:22 pm It kind of blows my mind that any LDS person would think that our Lord was not married during His mortal life. This shows, to me anyway, a real lack of understanding about the Lord, the Church, the Gospel, the Priesthood, the Supreme Example and a host of other related topics. I have no doubt He was married and had children, He may have even been a Grandfather at the time of His Atoning Sacrifice, since marriage at age 12 was common in His time, although this does not mean He had children immediately. No, I don't know that it is true, but I think it is vapid to hypothesize that it is not true and I do feel that it is true.

My point was simply that it is not doctrine.

brianj wrote: ↑March 8th, 2018, 10:21 am

The Airbender wrote: ↑March 8th, 2018, 9:29 am I've read before that when God creates a man spiritually, he also creates a woman. As in, you cannot create one without creating the other. It's like Sodium and Chloride or Hydrogen and Oxygen.

I have never come across claims that male and female spirits were created in equal numbers. If you can recall the source, I would like to read it.

Matter and antimatter would probably be a better similie than Na and Cl or H and O. A lot of oxygen exists independent of hydrogen, and there's plenty of sodium and chloride that exist independent of one another. You can easily find KCl in stores sold as a substitute for NaCl.

TrueIntent wrote: Yes. As a woman in the church, I feel like there is sometimes a dismissiveness about the role of the woman because the "man is at the head"....but what is lesser discussed is the ordinance of the second anointing, where the woman pronounces her husband a "king or priest" and lays the blessings on his head. She washes his feet, just as mary washed christ's feet, and then just as Christ washed his disciples. There is not much information ordinance available to the general membership, but it was recorded in many pioneer journals...or at least described. Elohim has "male and female meaning" in hebrew. It's a union for sure.

Earlier I said that I had read that the Davidic Servant was a couple....actually i have to correct myself. It was actually that I had read that the two endtime prophets who are killed in the streets were a husband and wife. There is symbolism that points to a male and female. Sometimes we assume that "prophets can only be male" because of the current heir achy of the the church, however, as the scriptures teach, there were prophetesses, and female high priests in the old testament and ancient cultures, as well as female disciples in the new testament. We may be in for a culture shock when we realize the role of the woman is very much equal in all aspects of the gospel.

BruceRGilbert wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 10:07 am

TrueIntent wrote: Yes. As a woman in the church, I feel like there is sometimes a dismissiveness about the role of the woman because the "man is at the head"....but what is lesser discussed is the ordinance of the second anointing, where the woman pronounces her husband a "king or priest" and lays the blessings on his head. She washes his feet, just as mary washed christ's feet, and then just as Christ washed his disciples. There is not much information ordinance available to the general membership, but it was recorded in many pioneer journals...or at least described. Elohim has "male and female meaning" in hebrew. It's a union for sure.

Earlier I said that I had read that the Davidic Servant was a couple....actually i have to correct myself. It was actually that I had read that the two endtime prophets who are killed in the streets were a husband and wife. There is symbolism that points to a male and female. Sometimes we assume that "prophets can only be male" because of the current heir achy of the the church, however, as the scriptures teach, there were prophetesses, and female high priests in the old testament and ancient cultures, as well as female disciples in the new testament. We may be in for a culture shock when we realize the role of the woman is very much equal in all aspects of the gospel.

This notion of 'man is the head' has been very problematic, ( a stumbling block,) for many because it is not clearly understood in context of what Heavenly Father intended. It has become consistently apparent in my studies and reinforced through personal revelation, that there is an "eternal duality" that was intended throughout existence. This "duality" is repeated over and over again in many ways. Forgive me; therefore, as I repeat some of the things that can be found elsewhere among my "stuff."
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The Tabernacle of Moses illustrates several things having to do with God's nature, as well as our own. It has to do with "Tabernacles" as HOMES, for Himself as well as for us.
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Please note that the Shikineh Glory resides over the "Heart" denoting and reaffirming the manifestation of God's presence with the "burning bosom."
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The "two witnesses" within each one of us have to do with the duality of our "consciousness" - thoughts and feelings.
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The very nature of "Light" has been shown to consist of "mind / heart" type duality.
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What is it that we are being shown repeatedly?
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Man is the "head" in that he is the "mind" given for direction. This may have more to do with Adam following Eve, initially, than it does with some kind of conceded notion that he was superior . . . which he is not. Woman is the "heart." You cannot compare "apples" with "oranges" to the level that some wish to take it. True, they are both fruit . . . just like man and woman are both human; however, the similitude quickly departs in the physiology and likeness.
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In the Proclamation of the Family - inspired revelation - things are very noteworthy:
1.) Gender is an "eternal" identity with purpose.
2.) Procreation is a power of "Godliness" requiring this "duality" of essence. In this regard, the woman has an "internal womb" with which to "transfigure" and "nurture" within, the "child of light" with a "tabernacle" formed from the elements that she "ingests." In this way, "like begets like" based upon that which is "consumed." The man has an "external womb" with power to create in the external environment.
3.) Just like the Holy Place in the Tabernacle model, the Man, as the 'Mind,' stands foremost as the "head of the home" to PRESIDE, PROVIDE, and PROTECT that which lies at the "HEART" of the home . . . the woman . . . that is the "kernel" and "attractive, binding force" which nurtures the essence of life. She is symbolic of the Holy of Holies and truly is an Ark of the Covenant - the New and Everlasting Covenant - in having the children of the Sacred Union.

Seek the Truth wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 1:58 am I'm not sure I can get with Jesus having kids, who is the grandfather and where are the genes today.

TrueIntent wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 8:38 am
You're getting caught up in "what was taught"....the more you study "what was taught" you will find you should stick to "what is actually found as revelation in the scriptures"....you will also find we as a church have gone back and forth on what we have taught as a "doctrine" and what is not a doctrine....Eldnar Bednar gave a talk on this recently....however what he conveniently left out is that our own leadership taught many things as doctrine that were not. Which is fine...I don't expect them to own up to everything. it's a P.R. thing for the church, and really, it's about definitions....Like what is the definition of the word "doctrine", and as bill clinton would say, "could you please define "is".....really I don't fault the leadership as long as they didn't understand what they were doing. . but my point is...the scriptures cut a clear path...which is through and only through Christ. As I say that...realize that I recognize that that is hard to understand. But I have experienced it. When I dropped the "practiced" and found the reason I was doing it was because there was something that I needed to go to Christ for, and I would receive a witness for it. Even as I say that, I still wrestle with what to "do". My point is....what is doctrine according to Christ?

TrueIntent wrote:
Great Post!, I love your graphics. are they your own? I believe and identify very closely to what you have posted that the male/female, adam/eve is a symbolic representation of energies and symbols. In my original post that you responded to, I wrote that I felt sometimes dismissed in the church because we are taught that the male is at the head....how I personally came to peace with the teaching "the male is at the head" was believing and understanding very much what you posted, and understanding the symbolism. However, my question for you, and I hope this doesnt take this thread off topic, but "the family proclamation"....would apply in a symbolic sense as well? How do you explain the male and female, with homosexuality. Because in my eyes, just like a male and female in a marriage are spiritually "energetically" paired....Ive seen it with gays as well, there is always a "male and female" energy. One more masculine, one more feminine. See, once I started applying symbolism, I no longer felt I could be judgmental about what sex paired with another. Just as the temple is a symbol of a spiritual male and female....joseph smith taught that the ordinances are for the spiritually minded....so I choose not to apply them literal...just like I choose not to apply "the male is at the head" literally, because when I previously believed this principle as a literal interpretation, I literally felt dammed, and unable to progress. But believing the male is a symbolic head...that opened the door for progression in knowledge. So, not to take this off topic....with that same understanding...Often times when I hear the family proclamation read, I hear people regurgitate it with, "see, you can't be gay".....my question is, if it's a spiritual symbol, just as the temple is, and the spiritual law is higher....maybe you can be gay? Actually its not really a question....it's what I believe. Any thoughts?

BTW, i loved this....
"Procreation is a power of "Godliness" requiring this "duality" of essence. In this regard, the woman has an "internal womb" with which to "transfigure" and "nurture" within, the "child of light" with a "tabernacle" formed from the elements that she "ingests." In this way, "like begets like" based upon that which is "consumed." The man has an "external womb" with power to create in the external environment."

Ether 12:
27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

abijah wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 3:58 pm
The grandfather is Jesus's Father.

The reason why people struggle with the concept is due to the enduring protestant/catholic abstract notions of the Godhead. Joseph Smith was the first in a long time to preach anthropomorphic God but the Church and saints still haven't fully shaken off all the false traditions from the Great Apostasy.

There is a disproportionate amount of those genes within the Church today. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, the Pratt brothers and a long list of others were all descendants by one line or another.

Most of Jesus's offspring spread throughout Europe, concentrated in Scandinavia, the British Isles and western Europe. Peoples who's descendants converted en masse at the dawning of the Restoration.

Seek the Truth wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 7:27 pm
Seems like that would cause a problem with the only begotten aspect.

Seek the Truth wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 7:27 pm Citation desperately needed.

Seek the Truth wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 7:27 pm I think this is entirely fact free.

THE LORD’S LATTER DAY DESCENDANTS

pp. 365-367



“There is a 'chosen people' reserved in premortality to come to this earth in the last days through certain lineages. There is also a 'chosen family' in the latter days for Joseph Smith declared, 'but few of them [gentiles] will be gathered with the chosen family.' The 'chosen' were not all Jews, but also Ephraimites of the Shiloh Dynasty, who were called and ordained before the foundation of the earth to this work, and for the most part have admirably accomplished their missions.



“We have attempted to show how the patriarchal and matriarchal bloodline of the Lamb's chosen family presently flows through the veins of Joseph Smith, and because of it he was the Grail king and inheritor of the promises of the dispensation of the fullness of time. Because of this extended family the gospel could flourish where it was planted. In this regard, speaking of New York and by extension New England, the Lord declared: Behold, and lo, I have much people in this place, in the regions round about; and an effectual door shall be opened in the regions round about in this eastern land. -- D & C 100:3

(...)

“If the noble blood of Jesus Christ and His wives was present in America's founding fathers and specifically in Joseph Smith's lineage, might it also be present in other members of the Church leadership at all levels? If the blood of Israel was richly concentrated in England, Wales, and Scotland, was this not the ancestral base of most of our LDS leaders?...



“In scripture, the 'true vine' is usually used as a reference to Jesus Christ (John 15:1,5). However, it is also a metaphor for God's chosen people... It should be noted as well that later genealogical research has shown that many members of the early LDS Church leadership were distantly related to the Joseph Smith family. Brigham Young, speaking in 1845 of a shared genealogy, noted: 'When we come to the connections we discover that we all sprung back to the settlement of New England about 200 years ago...



“Other lines descending from Jesus Christ may be included in the Church's royal family...



“A few common ancestors in Britain seem to have been a crucial pivot in the family tree, which spread its branches to other founder and apostles in the LDS Church. Dealing with this issue, an interesting letter written in 1853, referencing a speech from Brigham Young, from Orson Pratt to Parley P. Pratt has come to light: 'You will recall that Joseph had a vision and saw that our families and his all sprang from the same man a few generations ago... The Lord has his eye upon him, and upon his father, and upon their progenitors, clear back to Abraham and from Abraham to the flood, and from the flood to Enoch and from Enoch to Adam.'...



“...Archibald F. Bennett (1896-1965), Church genealogist...discovered that several generations back to Joseph did have a common ancestor with the Pratts. This ancestor was the English reformer, John Lathrop (1584-1653), the fifth great-grandfather of the Prophet Joseph Smith.



“John Lathrop was a minister in the Church of England who broke from his church and formed a small dissident congregation. He was persecuted and imprisoned and eventually emigrated to America. Thousands of his descendants are LDS, as Richard W. Price wrote in his biography and genealogy of Lathrop: 'In the [LDS] Church I would say probably 25 percent of the original Church members in America were descended from him [Lathrop]... I don't think there's any recent, common ancestor that has more descendants in the Church.'



“According to genealogy, early Church leaders related to Lathrop include Oliver Cowdery, Orson and Parley P. Pratt, Wilford Woodruff, Frederick G. Williams, Joseph Smith, Sr., Joseph F. and Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, and others. More recently are included Nathan Eldon Tanner, Marion G. Romney and Bishop H. Burke Peterson, to name a very few. From this astonishing discovery, one can reason that Joseph selected many of the general authorities, not because of nepotism, but because he knew them through revelation to be descendants of Jesus Christ.



“Besides LDS leaders, the Lathrop line has produced other noted Americans, namely Ulysses S. Grant, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Eli Whitney, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and Dr. Benjamin Spock. More recently we have President George Bush, Utah Congressman Dan Marriott, former Secretary of Education T. H. Bell, former LDS Michigan governor George Romney and his son, Mitt Romney, governor of Massachusetts."



“We are reminded of Pelagius, the fifth-century British monk, who left the Catholic Church to pursue a truer vision of the gospel. He claimed descent from the ‘children of Joseph of Arimathea’ (a code name for the children of Jesus Christ). In like manner, Lathrop left the church of England to live as he felt the scriptures taught. The was thrown into prison and eventually banished to New England where he was able to teach and practice a more Puritanical life. Interestingly, there are many similarities between the early Pilgrims, Puritans, and the LDS Church. ‘Half of what the Puritans believed,’ writes Cureton, ‘is what Mormons believe also.’



“The converging genealogical lines point to Joseph Smith and the immediate families of the Church as having a special calling. Joseph’s lineage in Christ was very potent and was shared by many early Latter-day Saints. Among these are Judge James Adams, George Q. Cannon, and Heber C. Kimball.



“The Oliver B. Huntington journal records and account of how Joseph Smith sealed a Sister Repshire to Judge James Adams of Springfield, Illinois. The entry notes that, ‘The Prophet stated to her (Repshire) that Judge Adams was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.’ Another example is brother Joseph saying to Edward Hunter, his scribe for section 128 of the Doctrine and Covenants. ‘I know who you are, we are near kin, I know your genealogy.’



“These noted instances help to establish Joseph Smith’s understanding of the concept of a genealogical link between the royal lineage of the Savior to living Latter-day Saints of the early Church. The genealogy of the family of the first Church bishop, Edward Partridge (1793-1840) indicates that they are related to the Rex Deus ancestry of the Plantagenets, d’Anjoy, Stewarts of Scotland, and the Dukes of Normandy.



“The Isaac Morley lineage was supposedly through the Mores of Orkneys, Sinclairs of Scotland, Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd (the Welsh Knight Templar), John Dee (1527-1608), the occult alchemist, and others of the Grail bloodline. 16. Isaac Morley was the Mormon patriarch who established the first pioneer settlement in Sanpete Valley in 1849 and baptized Ute Indian chief ‘Joseph’ Walker in 1855.



“The apostle Heber C. Kimball, grandfather of president Spencer W. Kimball, also claimed ancestry from Jesus Christ. A number of quotations from the early brethren comfirm this concept. Orson F. Whitney, of the Grail seed himself, writes: ‘So was it with this servant of Christ [Heber C. Kimball], this brother of Jesus in the British Isles… His, also, was the Savior’s lineage; in his heart a kindred spirit; in his veins the self-same blood.’



“This was not some metaphorical blood, but literal and living blood, with the Savior’s DNA signature flowing through Kimball’s very veins."


(Dynasty of the Holy Grail: Mormonism's Sacred Bloodline, Vern G. Swanson, 2006, pp. 365-367)

The Airbender wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 8:59 am

brianj wrote: ↑March 8th, 2018, 10:21 am

The Airbender wrote: ↑March 8th, 2018, 9:29 am I've read before that when God creates a man spiritually, he also creates a woman. As in, you cannot create one without creating the other. It's like Sodium and Chloride or Hydrogen and Oxygen.

I have never come across claims that male and female spirits were created in equal numbers. If you can recall the source, I would like to read it.

Matter and antimatter would probably be a better similie than Na and Cl or H and O. A lot of oxygen exists independent of hydrogen, and there's plenty of sodium and chloride that exist independent of one another. You can easily find KCl in stores sold as a substitute for NaCl.

Yeah, I was having a hard time coming up with a good comparison. Although, I don't believe you can find Pure Sodium or Chloride in nature. I could be mistaken but I seem to recall that they have to be separated into their base elements.

abijah wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 9:25 pm No, Jesus is still the Only Begotten of the Father. Did you suppose Jesus would remain permanently celibate? Do you think he needs to be in order that he might be the "only begotten"?

"there are those in this audience who are descendants of the old 12 Apostles and, shall I say it, yes, descendants of the Savior himself. His seed is represented in this body of men." -Pres George Q. Cannon (A Ministry of Meetings: The Apostolic Diaries of Rudger Clawson, edited by Stan Larson, Signature Books, 1993, pp. 71-72)

"Are you ever going to be prepared to see God, Jesus Christ, His angels, or comprehend His servants, unless you take a faithful and prayerful course? Did you actually know Joseph Smith? No. Do you know brother Brigham? No. Do you know brother Heber? No, you do not. Do you know the Twelve? You do not, if you did, you would begin to know God, and learn that those men who are chosen to direct and counsel you are near kindred to God and to Jesus Christ, for the keys, power, and authority of the kingdom of God are in that lineage." -Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 248, Salt Lake City, March 1, 1857

“That blood which was in him [Joseph Smith] was pure and he had the sole right and lawful power, as he [Joseph Smith] was the legal heir to the blood that has been on the earth and has come down through a pure lineage. The union of various ancestors kept that blood pure." Vern G. Swanson. Dynasty of the Holy Grail: Mormonism’s Sacred Bloodline. Page 285.

Seek the Truth wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 7:27 pm I think this is entirely fact free.

Think what you like. It is a longstanding tradition that Joseph of Arimathea brought a great deal of Jesus' household and kin to Glastonbury, outside of Rome & Jerusalem's power, who would have killed them.

Many put great stock in the widespread notion that a few of Jesus's offspring by Mary Magdalene went to France and Switzerland, likely developing into the Merovingian family.

There are prominent traditions of Jesus's firstborn son going to Denmark, and his children further removing to Sweden and establishing the royal line of swedish kings.

Also relevant and perhaps interesting...

THE LORD’S LATTER DAY DESCENDANTS

pp. 365-367



“There is a 'chosen people' reserved in premortality to come to this earth in the last days through certain lineages. There is also a 'chosen family' in the latter days for Joseph Smith declared, 'but few of them [gentiles] will be gathered with the chosen family.' The 'chosen' were not all Jews, but also Ephraimites of the Shiloh Dynasty, who were called and ordained before the foundation of the earth to this work, and for the most part have admirably accomplished their missions.



“We have attempted to show how the patriarchal and matriarchal bloodline of the Lamb's chosen family presently flows through the veins of Joseph Smith, and because of it he was the Grail king and inheritor of the promises of the dispensation of the fullness of time. Because of this extended family the gospel could flourish where it was planted. In this regard, speaking of New York and by extension New England, the Lord declared: Behold, and lo, I have much people in this place, in the regions round about; and an effectual door shall be opened in the regions round about in this eastern land. -- D & C 100:3

(...)

“If the noble blood of Jesus Christ and His wives was present in America's founding fathers and specifically in Joseph Smith's lineage, might it also be present in other members of the Church leadership at all levels? If the blood of Israel was richly concentrated in England, Wales, and Scotland, was this not the ancestral base of most of our LDS leaders?...



“In scripture, the 'true vine' is usually used as a reference to Jesus Christ (John 15:1,5). However, it is also a metaphor for God's chosen people... It should be noted as well that later genealogical research has shown that many members of the early LDS Church leadership were distantly related to the Joseph Smith family. Brigham Young, speaking in 1845 of a shared genealogy, noted: 'When we come to the connections we discover that we all sprung back to the settlement of New England about 200 years ago...



“Other lines descending from Jesus Christ may be included in the Church's royal family...



“A few common ancestors in Britain seem to have been a crucial pivot in the family tree, which spread its branches to other founder and apostles in the LDS Church. Dealing with this issue, an interesting letter written in 1853, referencing a speech from Brigham Young, from Orson Pratt to Parley P. Pratt has come to light: 'You will recall that Joseph had a vision and saw that our families and his all sprang from the same man a few generations ago... The Lord has his eye upon him, and upon his father, and upon their progenitors, clear back to Abraham and from Abraham to the flood, and from the flood to Enoch and from Enoch to Adam.'...



“...Archibald F. Bennett (1896-1965), Church genealogist...discovered that several generations back to Joseph did have a common ancestor with the Pratts. This ancestor was the English reformer, John Lathrop (1584-1653), the fifth great-grandfather of the Prophet Joseph Smith.



“John Lathrop was a minister in the Church of England who broke from his church and formed a small dissident congregation. He was persecuted and imprisoned and eventually emigrated to America. Thousands of his descendants are LDS, as Richard W. Price wrote in his biography and genealogy of Lathrop: 'In the [LDS] Church I would say probably 25 percent of the original Church members in America were descended from him [Lathrop]... I don't think there's any recent, common ancestor that has more descendants in the Church.'



“According to genealogy, early Church leaders related to Lathrop include Oliver Cowdery, Orson and Parley P. Pratt, Wilford Woodruff, Frederick G. Williams, Joseph Smith, Sr., Joseph F. and Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, and others. More recently are included Nathan Eldon Tanner, Marion G. Romney and Bishop H. Burke Peterson, to name a very few. From this astonishing discovery, one can reason that Joseph selected many of the general authorities, not because of nepotism, but because he knew them through revelation to be descendants of Jesus Christ.



“Besides LDS leaders, the Lathrop line has produced other noted Americans, namely Ulysses S. Grant, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Eli Whitney, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and Dr. Benjamin Spock. More recently we have President George Bush, Utah Congressman Dan Marriott, former Secretary of Education T. H. Bell, former LDS Michigan governor George Romney and his son, Mitt Romney, governor of Massachusetts."



“We are reminded of Pelagius, the fifth-century British monk, who left the Catholic Church to pursue a truer vision of the gospel. He claimed descent from the ‘children of Joseph of Arimathea’ (a code name for the children of Jesus Christ). In like manner, Lathrop left the church of England to live as he felt the scriptures taught. The was thrown into prison and eventually banished to New England where he was able to teach and practice a more Puritanical life. Interestingly, there are many similarities between the early Pilgrims, Puritans, and the LDS Church. ‘Half of what the Puritans believed,’ writes Cureton, ‘is what Mormons believe also.’



“The converging genealogical lines point to Joseph Smith and the immediate families of the Church as having a special calling. Joseph’s lineage in Christ was very potent and was shared by many early Latter-day Saints. Among these are Judge James Adams, George Q. Cannon, and Heber C. Kimball.



“The Oliver B. Huntington journal records and account of how Joseph Smith sealed a Sister Repshire to Judge James Adams of Springfield, Illinois. The entry notes that, ‘The Prophet stated to her (Repshire) that Judge Adams was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.’ Another example is brother Joseph saying to Edward Hunter, his scribe for section 128 of the Doctrine and Covenants. ‘I know who you are, we are near kin, I know your genealogy.’



“These noted instances help to establish Joseph Smith’s understanding of the concept of a genealogical link between the royal lineage of the Savior to living Latter-day Saints of the early Church. The genealogy of the family of the first Church bishop, Edward Partridge (1793-1840) indicates that they are related to the Rex Deus ancestry of the Plantagenets, d’Anjoy, Stewarts of Scotland, and the Dukes of Normandy.



“The Isaac Morley lineage was supposedly through the Mores of Orkneys, Sinclairs of Scotland, Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd (the Welsh Knight Templar), John Dee (1527-1608), the occult alchemist, and others of the Grail bloodline. 16. Isaac Morley was the Mormon patriarch who established the first pioneer settlement in Sanpete Valley in 1849 and baptized Ute Indian chief ‘Joseph’ Walker in 1855.



“The apostle Heber C. Kimball, grandfather of president Spencer W. Kimball, also claimed ancestry from Jesus Christ. A number of quotations from the early brethren comfirm this concept. Orson F. Whitney, of the Grail seed himself, writes: ‘So was it with this servant of Christ [Heber C. Kimball], this brother of Jesus in the British Isles… His, also, was the Savior’s lineage; in his heart a kindred spirit; in his veins the self-same blood.’


“This was not some metaphorical blood, but literal and living blood, with the Savior’s DNA signature flowing through Kimball’s very veins."


(Dynasty of the Holy Grail: Mormonism's Sacred Bloodline, Vern G. Swanson, 2006, pp. 365-367)

While I cite these various sources, I am well aware they are not "proof". My primary source of knowledge is the spirit of revelation.

abijah wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 9:25 pm

Seek the Truth wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 7:27 pm
Seems like that would cause a problem with the only begotten aspect.

No, Jesus is still the Only Begotten of the Father. Did you suppose Jesus would remain permanently celibate? Do you think he needs to be in order that he might be the "only begotten"?

Seek the Truth wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 7:27 pm Citation desperately needed.

"there are those in this audience who are descendants of the old 12 Apostles and, shall I say it, yes, descendants of the Savior himself. His seed is represented in this body of men." -Pres George Q. Cannon (A Ministry of Meetings: The Apostolic Diaries of Rudger Clawson, edited by Stan Larson, Signature Books, 1993, pp. 71-72)

"Are you ever going to be prepared to see God, Jesus Christ, His angels, or comprehend His servants, unless you take a faithful and prayerful course? Did you actually know Joseph Smith? No. Do you know brother Brigham? No. Do you know brother Heber? No, you do not. Do you know the Twelve? You do not, if you did, you would begin to know God, and learn that those men who are chosen to direct and counsel you are near kindred to God and to Jesus Christ, for the keys, power, and authority of the kingdom of God are in that lineage." -Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, p. 248, Salt Lake City, March 1, 1857

“That blood which was in him [Joseph Smith] was pure and he had the sole right and lawful power, as he [Joseph Smith] was the legal heir to the blood that has been on the earth and has come down through a pure lineage. The union of various ancestors kept that blood pure." Vern G. Swanson. Dynasty of the Holy Grail: Mormonism’s Sacred Bloodline. Page 285.

Seek the Truth wrote: ↑March 9th, 2018, 7:27 pm I think this is entirely fact free.

Think what you like. It is a longstanding tradition that Joseph of Arimathea brought a great deal of Jesus' household and kin to Glastonbury, outside of Rome & Jerusalem's power, who would have killed them.

Many put great stock in the widespread notion that a few of Jesus's offspring by Mary Magdalene went to France and Switzerland, likely developing into the Merovingian family.

There are prominent traditions of Jesus's firstborn son going to Denmark, and his children further removing to Sweden and establishing the royal line of swedish kings.

Also relevant and perhaps interesting...

THE LORD’S LATTER DAY DESCENDANTS

pp. 365-367



“There is a 'chosen people' reserved in premortality to come to this earth in the last days through certain lineages. There is also a 'chosen family' in the latter days for Joseph Smith declared, 'but few of them [gentiles] will be gathered with the chosen family.' The 'chosen' were not all Jews, but also Ephraimites of the Shiloh Dynasty, who were called and ordained before the foundation of the earth to this work, and for the most part have admirably accomplished their missions.



“We have attempted to show how the patriarchal and matriarchal bloodline of the Lamb's chosen family presently flows through the veins of Joseph Smith, and because of it he was the Grail king and inheritor of the promises of the dispensation of the fullness of time. Because of this extended family the gospel could flourish where it was planted. In this regard, speaking of New York and by extension New England, the Lord declared: Behold, and lo, I have much people in this place, in the regions round about; and an effectual door shall be opened in the regions round about in this eastern land. -- D & C 100:3

(...)

“If the noble blood of Jesus Christ and His wives was present in America's founding fathers and specifically in Joseph Smith's lineage, might it also be present in other members of the Church leadership at all levels? If the blood of Israel was richly concentrated in England, Wales, and Scotland, was this not the ancestral base of most of our LDS leaders?...



“In scripture, the 'true vine' is usually used as a reference to Jesus Christ (John 15:1,5). However, it is also a metaphor for God's chosen people... It should be noted as well that later genealogical research has shown that many members of the early LDS Church leadership were distantly related to the Joseph Smith family. Brigham Young, speaking in 1845 of a shared genealogy, noted: 'When we come to the connections we discover that we all sprung back to the settlement of New England about 200 years ago...



“Other lines descending from Jesus Christ may be included in the Church's royal family...



“A few common ancestors in Britain seem to have been a crucial pivot in the family tree, which spread its branches to other founder and apostles in the LDS Church. Dealing with this issue, an interesting letter written in 1853, referencing a speech from Brigham Young, from Orson Pratt to Parley P. Pratt has come to light: 'You will recall that Joseph had a vision and saw that our families and his all sprang from the same man a few generations ago... The Lord has his eye upon him, and upon his father, and upon their progenitors, clear back to Abraham and from Abraham to the flood, and from the flood to Enoch and from Enoch to Adam.'...



“...Archibald F. Bennett (1896-1965), Church genealogist...discovered that several generations back to Joseph did have a common ancestor with the Pratts. This ancestor was the English reformer, John Lathrop (1584-1653), the fifth great-grandfather of the Prophet Joseph Smith.



“John Lathrop was a minister in the Church of England who broke from his church and formed a small dissident congregation. He was persecuted and imprisoned and eventually emigrated to America. Thousands of his descendants are LDS, as Richard W. Price wrote in his biography and genealogy of Lathrop: 'In the [LDS] Church I would say probably 25 percent of the original Church members in America were descended from him [Lathrop]... I don't think there's any recent, common ancestor that has more descendants in the Church.'



“According to genealogy, early Church leaders related to Lathrop include Oliver Cowdery, Orson and Parley P. Pratt, Wilford Woodruff, Frederick G. Williams, Joseph Smith, Sr., Joseph F. and Joseph Fielding Smith, Harold B. Lee, and others. More recently are included Nathan Eldon Tanner, Marion G. Romney and Bishop H. Burke Peterson, to name a very few. From this astonishing discovery, one can reason that Joseph selected many of the general authorities, not because of nepotism, but because he knew them through revelation to be descendants of Jesus Christ.



“Besides LDS leaders, the Lathrop line has produced other noted Americans, namely Ulysses S. Grant, Franklin D. Roosevelt, Eli Whitney, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow, Oliver Wendell Holmes, and Dr. Benjamin Spock. More recently we have President George Bush, Utah Congressman Dan Marriott, former Secretary of Education T. H. Bell, former LDS Michigan governor George Romney and his son, Mitt Romney, governor of Massachusetts."



“We are reminded of Pelagius, the fifth-century British monk, who left the Catholic Church to pursue a truer vision of the gospel. He claimed descent from the ‘children of Joseph of Arimathea’ (a code name for the children of Jesus Christ). In like manner, Lathrop left the church of England to live as he felt the scriptures taught. The was thrown into prison and eventually banished to New England where he was able to teach and practice a more Puritanical life. Interestingly, there are many similarities between the early Pilgrims, Puritans, and the LDS Church. ‘Half of what the Puritans believed,’ writes Cureton, ‘is what Mormons believe also.’



“The converging genealogical lines point to Joseph Smith and the immediate families of the Church as having a special calling. Joseph’s lineage in Christ was very potent and was shared by many early Latter-day Saints. Among these are Judge James Adams, George Q. Cannon, and Heber C. Kimball.



“The Oliver B. Huntington journal records and account of how Joseph Smith sealed a Sister Repshire to Judge James Adams of Springfield, Illinois. The entry notes that, ‘The Prophet stated to her (Repshire) that Judge Adams was a literal descendant of Jesus Christ.’ Another example is brother Joseph saying to Edward Hunter, his scribe for section 128 of the Doctrine and Covenants. ‘I know who you are, we are near kin, I know your genealogy.’



“These noted instances help to establish Joseph Smith’s understanding of the concept of a genealogical link between the royal lineage of the Savior to living Latter-day Saints of the early Church. The genealogy of the family of the first Church bishop, Edward Partridge (1793-1840) indicates that they are related to the Rex Deus ancestry of the Plantagenets, d’Anjoy, Stewarts of Scotland, and the Dukes of Normandy.



“The Isaac Morley lineage was supposedly through the Mores of Orkneys, Sinclairs of Scotland, Madoc ab Owain Gwynedd (the Welsh Knight Templar), John Dee (1527-1608), the occult alchemist, and others of the Grail bloodline. 16. Isaac Morley was the Mormon patriarch who established the first pioneer settlement in Sanpete Valley in 1849 and baptized Ute Indian chief ‘Joseph’ Walker in 1855.



“The apostle Heber C. Kimball, grandfather of president Spencer W. Kimball, also claimed ancestry from Jesus Christ. A number of quotations from the early brethren comfirm this concept. Orson F. Whitney, of the Grail seed himself, writes: ‘So was it with this servant of Christ [Heber C. Kimball], this brother of Jesus in the British Isles… His, also, was the Savior’s lineage; in his heart a kindred spirit; in his veins the self-same blood.’



“This was not some metaphorical blood, but literal and living blood, with the Savior’s DNA signature flowing through Kimball’s very veins."


(Dynasty of the Holy Grail: Mormonism's Sacred Bloodline, Vern G. Swanson, 2006, pp. 365-367)

While I cite these various sources, I am well aware they are not "proof". My primary source of knowledge is the spirit of revelation.

Dynasty of the Holy Grail: Mormonism's Sacred Bloodline
Reviewer Jesse D. Hurlbut

What do the Virgin Mary, King Arthur, and Joseph Smith have in common? This is one of the questions that Vern Swanson attempts to answer in Dynasty of the Holy Grail: Mormonism's Sacred Bloodline. Swanson, who has been director of the Springville Art Museum in Utah since 1980 and who has published extensively in art historical topics, applies his skills to a different body of material in this impressive, large-format volume of over five hundred pages.

The author refers to his own work as a "scattershot miscellany of random thoughts" (411). While some may find in this statement a self-effacing motif, most readers will acknowledge that the phrase provides a fair assessment of this unusual project. This book falls outside the parameters of traditional academic inquiry. It can be categorized neither as fictional narrative nor religious treatise. It is not history, theology, or science. It borrows from each of these disciplines as well as from a significant body of folklore to derive and to propagate myth. I use the term "myth" in its original sense of something that a group holds to be true, although I am not certain who constitutes the believers in this case. To be sure, Swanson's arguments will be most intelligible to an educated LDS audience, but the degree of speculation required to accept them as fact will dissuade most from buying into the theories. The author does plainly state (at least four times in the front-matter sections) that his conclusions do not represent official LDS doctrine, although the tone throughout the book is matter-of-fact.
Categories:
Book Reviews

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 10th, 2018, 10:22 am
It's actually in my best interest to believe these claims, since it would mean that I have the 'living' DNA/blood of the Savior in me. While, it's a nice thought, unfortunately it's built on a foundation of myth/folklore. The sources these beliefs are based on are legends, which are pretty spurious.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 10th, 2018, 10:22 am I've always felt that Jesus was probably married, but there's no proof, so IMO, people are free to believe or disbelieve this. Even if he was married, and had children, there's no guarantee that his children lived to produce their own children. His line (if he had one) easily could have died off.

abijah wrote: ↑March 10th, 2018, 12:17 pm

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 10th, 2018, 10:22 am
It's actually in my best interest to believe these claims, since it would mean that I have the 'living' DNA/blood of the Savior in me. While, it's a nice thought, unfortunately it's built on a foundation of myth/folklore. The sources these beliefs are based on are legends, which are pretty spurious.

It's a hard read for the issues the reviewer mentions, and the author's train of thought is often all over the place. It is useful and interesting for its research and citations, but it's badly written.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 10th, 2018, 10:22 am I've always felt that Jesus was probably married, but there's no proof, so IMO, people are free to believe or disbelieve this. Even if he was married, and had children, there's no guarantee that his children lived to produce their own children. His line (if he had one) easily could have died off.

If he weren't married and didn't have children, he would be breaking the oldest and among the most serious commandments. The injunctions to leave his father mother, cling to his wife and have children applied to him the same as everyone.

No guarantee that his children survived? Sure there is no definitive proof of that, I guess I just figured that God would pay greater respect to his own blood than that. The idea of Christ having kids who's line just promptly dies out makes reason stare for me.

Overall I feel I have a very intuitive process of thinking and writing. Rather than dismissing things as folklore/myth I will attempt and read them with the discernment of the Spirit and watch for parallels with more trusted sources.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 10th, 2018, 10:22 am I've always felt that Jesus was probably married, but there's no proof, so IMO, people are free to believe or disbelieve this. Even if he was married, and had children, there's no guarantee that his children lived to produce their own children. His line (if he had one) easily could have died off.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 10th, 2018, 12:35 pm
I did read 'Holy Blood, Holy Grail', which is where a lot of these myths are found and some of it was pretty sketchy.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑March 10th, 2018, 12:35 pm But, if you think it's a sign of respect by God to make sure our offspring live and profligate, well....I don't. I think he had a lot of respect for Joseph and Emma and they lost six children. Many people have had their children die and have not had their lines continue. Some though married, still aren't able to have children. These things happen and I believe that sometimes it is the plan that Heavenly Father has for us, which we may not understand. And, maybe you don't know the mind of God, if you think he might allow Jesus' line to die off. I can see reasons why he might do this.