Is looking at pornography on the same level as fornication as a sin?

[Fiannan]

The first is to know that we don’t need to defeat and eradicate our urges—just to overpower them when they arise. Understanding what is and what isn’t expected of us is very important, because the number one obstacle to overpowering lust is guilt. Once you’re feeling guilty, you are sapped of any willpower, and the vicious cycle of giving in to temptation, feeling guilty/regretful, getting over the guilt and doing it all over again sets in.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_ ... n-Lust.htm

Why is marriage dying and sex evaporating? Because it is based today on the Christian concept of love rather than the Jewish concept of lust.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/l ... me-1.52734

Any thoughts on these statements?

[abijah]

of course there is a hierarchy to sin! is there not a hierarchy to righteousness?

[Fiannan]

I do not think pornography is good because you make sex into a commodity. You have an industry that benefits from all the young women (men too but mostly women) who go to Hollywood to make it big; but never do. They get enticed to go into porn to pay the rent and then become addicted to the "easy money" and sexual activity and exhibitionist thrill. People then pay to subscribe to watch these people engage in sex. How messed up is that?

Porn was mainstreamed by large hotel chains and the advances in technology such as DVDs and most importantly the internet. And now it has mainstreamed such things as female bisexuality. Why do you think the huge surge in young women, yes, even in Church, thinking that making out or having sex with another woman is totally fine? It isn't due to some shaved head, woman with hairy underarms enticing them to explore new ways of sexual expression - not in most cases. And males? What should be an urge that helps motivates them to seek a long-term relationship is de-energized by using porn as a substitute. Ironically, porn use in women intensifies sexual desire while in males it diminishes it.

I think the whole guilt thing that exists in many LDS people actually makes porn use grow. If we treat any desire to view it, or actually viewing it, as a grave sin then it will dominate the mind. Overall it would be fantastic if it did not exist, but since that will never be the case the best way to combat it is to recognize its negative impact and look at it the same way we should look at junk food if our goal is to get in good shape.

[Elizabeth]

I have never viewed pornography, nor do I have any interest nor intention of doing so, and I am sure there are many such as I.
I know it is evil from reports of those whose lives such viewing has ruined.

[thisisspartaaa]

There is no hierarchy regarding sin. Sin is sin and will separate the person from God in any form.

So buying a slurpy at 7-11 after Church is the same as having an abortion?

I would note that in the Bible there was indeed a hierarchy of sin as demonstrated in what sort of animal one had to sacrifice to atone for the sin within the temple.

You’re missing the point. All sin must be cleansed and because of that, it doesn’t matter the supposed severity of it.

The application of the Atonement is what changes.

[Fiannan]

There is no hierarchy regarding sin. Sin is sin and will separate the person from God in any form.

So buying a slurpy at 7-11 after Church is the same as having an abortion?

I would note that in the Bible there was indeed a hierarchy of sin as demonstrated in what sort of animal one had to sacrifice to atone for the sin within the temple.

You’re missing the point. All sin must be cleansed and because of that, it doesn’t matter the supposed severity of it.

The application of the Atonement is what changes.

It actually does. Note that if you cheat on your spouse you will probably get excommunicated but if you admit to the bishop you looked at some porn he will probably direct you to a talk that explains why you shouldn't look at porn.

[marc]

27 Behold, it is written by them of old time, that thou shalt not commit adultery;

28 But I say unto you, that whosoever looketh on a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery already in his heart.

Committing adultery in the heart is the manifestation of the spirit. Committing adultery with another is the manifestation of the flesh. One trespasses against God. The other trespasses against God and fellow man. Neither deed can be unseen or undone; however, the deed of the flesh can have much greater lasting detrimental effects.

[braingrunt]

the Church doesn't have a very healthy sexual culture. Sex is considered taboo, and often a dirty, sinful thing. It puts wives off later when they get married, and drives men to unhealthy outlets, such as pornography. Sex isn't supposed to be a secret and dirty thing, but sacred and empowering. Pornography is a distortion of this, but is not equated with fornication. Fornication more heavily involves another person, and therefore is more serious.

The first words on sexual purity in "For the Strength of Youth" are these:
Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife.

It is also my experience that general conference teachings, encourage us to think of attraction and sexual energy as god given, natural, and useful. We simply keep it in-bounds.

Sounds healthy to me. If we are not healthy, I suppose we should repent and listen to the prophets.

I think this also answers fiannan a bit, regarding his jewish quotes.

[Fiannan]

Utah is the number 1 state in percentage of porn use. If I had to guess I'd guestimate that at least 90% of LDS males look at pornography. Maybe even higher than that. If you say you've never looked at porn then you're a liar. That's just the world we live in.

Not sure it really is #1 but lots of people look at porn. Did you know that rates are not that much different for males and females of the pre-30 age group?

[djinwa]

It actually does. Note that if you cheat on your spouse you will probably get excommunicated but if you admit to the bishop you looked at some porn he will probably direct you to a talk that explains why you shouldn't look at porn.

Depends on the inspiration.

I was new in a bishopric (2nd counselor) and a sister who had married in the temple was having an affair. We prayed for guidance on disciplinary action. I was inspired to excommunicate her. But the bishop and 1C related their inspiration first, which was to restrict the sacrament for a month. I figured I was outnumbered. 4 months later she got pregnant by that guy, at about the time I was leaving the ward.

I do read of guys being excommunicated for porn viewing.

And as we've discussed, I also see several cases of wives blowing up families because they are dissatisfied with his income and want a more extravagant lifestyle. Lusting after material things. No disciplinary action taken. No shame whatsoever.

When you see a lust targeted at the exclusion of lusts that are more destructive, you have to ask what is going on. It is obvious to me this whole War on Porn is an anti-male agenda. It is about power and control.

Women can exchange sex for whatever they want - a man's labor, his money, protection, etc. Sex is their most valuable asset, and it is what most men most desire. If a woman can gain a monopoly over a man's sexuality, that gives her more power. She can get more goods/services for less sex. And since women are overall less sexual than men, they like not having to do it as much. Many women, as we've read here, think sex is gross.

So it turns out that for some reason, God made men in particular to have dirty, nasty, disgusting, obscene thoughts and desires. We are wired to be attracted to women's bodies. So when a young man reaches puberty, he is suddenly a vile creature, in need of continual repentance. He needs to be regularly shamed to control his thoughts. He can be attracted to girls just enough to want to take them on dates, and marry them and earn money, but no more. Sex is not to be enjoyed,

Women, on the other hand, were created as sweet, pure, and wholesome. They can lust after money, or food, or big houses, or tall, dark, handsome men, and can file for divorce for whatever reason, and no problem. They were victims, after all.

Women can also deny sex endlessly with no shame. We read on here of one man being denied for 18 years by his RS president wife, in good standing with the church. Now if he were to fail to earn a paycheck, he would be reprimanded, as I once was by our SP.

I often wonder why we don't put much shame on other lusts. Wonder how it would work to berate women for overspending or overeating. Must be nice to just happen to have lusts that don't matter. How many women could restrain their spending if they had lots of money? How many could restrain their eating if good food is all around. Probably about the same as the number of men who can control their porn viewing when it is easily available.

And yet they have a holier-than-thou attitude about it all. Can't control their lusts, but expect others to control theirs. Jesus didn't like hypocrites. Read how this wife reacts to her husband battling his porn problem. Spreading gossip to all she can, to get "support". Actually, using shame to humiliate him.
https://www.mormonwomen.com/interview/w ... hits-home/

Men are becoming aware they are to be asexual. No lustful thoughts, no porn, no masturbation, and when they are married, they don't necessarily get sex. Sex is not to be enjoyed. Be a man, and forget it. Sacrifice. Don't be selfish.

In the end, as men are told more and more how disgusting they are, more will check out of the whole marriage scene, and go MGTOW. That is where we are heading.

[Elizabeth]

I do.

How many women could restrain their spending if they had lots of money? How many could restrain their eating if good food is all around.

[Bridgey]

Djinwa makes some excellent points. I think there should be more lessons in Relief Society about the benefits of sex in ur marriage. Also how it is a sin to use sex as a weapon. Also how God gave married couples this gift. To keep saying no to ur husband for selfish reasons is a sin. However, likewise a husband needs to be considerate to his wife.

Serious question, is it wrong for a married man or woman to masturbate. Where is this taught? Are there any exceptions eg wife withholding sex for 17yrs, wife away for long periods, separated, etc. If ur not looking at porn and not imanging u r with someone else then is it just as bad as overeating, overspending, (giving into the natural man), etc. I personally don't think it is on the same scale as looking at porn. I'm not confessing just interested.
I understand why the youth should not do it, but is it different if ur married?

[abijah]

The first words on sexual purity in "For the Strength of Youth" are these:
Physical intimacy between husband and wife is beautiful and sacred. It is ordained of God for the creation of children and for the expression of love between husband and wife.

It is also my experience that general conference teachings, encourage us to think of attraction and sexual energy as god given, natural, and useful. We simply keep it in-bounds.

Sounds healthy to me. If we are not healthy, I suppose we should repent and listen to the prophets.

I think this also answers fiannan a bit, regarding his jewish quotes.

On paper the Church's stance and approach toward sexuality is correct. It is the true Church after all. It's the execution that doesn't measure up, when fallible mortals get involved. Maybe you've had a different experience, but from what I've seen and heard this is a big problem for a great many members, male and female.

[Michelle]

I didn't want to look at this thread on purpose, but one of the posts was reported.
I am not even going to touch the topic of "which sin is worse."

I would simply suggest that we avoid generalizations about the opposite sex that may be true for some, but certainly not all.

We should also recognize that no sin may be excused by another persons sin.

We all own our own sins, until we give them to Christ.

[Bridgey]

I have never viewed pornography, nor do I have any interest nor intention of doing so, and I am sure there are many such as I.
I know it is evil from reports of those whose lives such viewing has ruined.

As a woman though (I assume), u do have an advantage in this area. Your natural woman tenancies that u acquired at birth are very different to a males. You don't know what it is like for men in this area so can't compare. God made us different for good reason.
You are right in that there are many women like u, but very few if any men are like u. A man that doesn't have an interest or urge towards the female body is either gay, disabled or psychologically damaged.

[Bridgey]

That's an interesting question about releasing sexual tension yourself, because if men don't get that relief somehow they face a higher risk of developing prostate cancer. So why would God design our bodies that way?

So what is the church's position on married people releasing sexual tension themselves, especially if their spouse is away, not intimate enough, both too old, both too fat, etc. Where can I find this instruction?
I understand it is discouraged in the youth and probably for good reason.
The only things I can think of is that it can be addictive, lessen your self-mastery, not resolve issues why there is a lack of intimacy and not chase your spouse for sex as much.

[Elizabeth]

Because of your use of "u" , I will presume you are young. Your generation has, what I consider to be the misfortune, of being born and raised in a world of immorality. This was not the case for the majority in previous generations.

I have never viewed pornography, nor do I have any interest nor intention of doing so, and I am sure there are many such as I.
I know it is evil from reports of those whose lives such viewing has ruined.

As a woman though (I assume), u do have an advantage in this area. Your natural woman tenancies that u acquired at birth are very different to a males. You don't know what it is like for men in this area so can't compare. God made us different for good reason.
You are right in that there are many women like u, but very few if any men are like u. A man that doesn't have an interest or urge towards the female body is either gay, disabled or psychologically damaged.

[Durzan]

The actual amount of immorality hasn't really increased all that much, as the world has always been full of perversions and immorality. The difference is that my generation and future generations are being exposed to that immorality on an unprecedented level, that access to such immorality has increased, and that immorality is more open and mainstream in nature than it was before.

[Bridgey]

Because of your use of "u" , I will presume you are young. Your generation has, what I consider to be the misfortune, of being born and raised in a world of immorality. This was not the case for the majority in previous generations.

I have never viewed pornography, nor do I have any interest nor intention of doing so, and I am sure there are many such as I.
I know it is evil from reports of those whose lives such viewing has ruined.

As a woman though (I assume), u do have an advantage in this area. Your natural woman tenancies that u acquired at birth are very different to a males. You don't know what it is like for men in this area so can't compare. God made us different for good reason.
You are right in that there are many women like u, but very few if any men are like u. A man that doesn't have an interest or urge towards the female body is either gay, disabled or psychologically damaged.

Actually I am not young. I was just typing on my phone. It's a bit slower so I abbreviate. It was definitely much easier for me as a child, but harder now and it has nothing to do with less spirituality.

[braingrunt]

That's an interesting question about releasing sexual tension yourself, because if men don't get that relief somehow they face a higher risk of developing prostate cancer. So why would God design our bodies that way?

So what is the church's position on married people releasing sexual tension themselves, especially if their spouse is away, not intimate enough, both too old, both too fat, etc. Where can I find this instruction?
I understand it is discouraged in the youth and probably for good reason.
The only things I can think of is that it can be addictive, lessen your self-mastery, not resolve issues why there is a lack of intimacy and not chase your spouse for sex as much.

I don't think we can find a current and direct policy about masturbation.

My advice is don't do it.

[braingrunt]

It actually does. Note that if you cheat on your spouse you will probably get excommunicated but if you admit to the bishop you looked at some porn he will probably direct you to a talk that explains why you shouldn't look at porn.

Depends on the inspiration.

I was new in a bishopric (2nd counselor) and a sister who had married in the temple was having an affair. We prayed for guidance on disciplinary action. I was inspired to excommunicate her. But the bishop and 1C related their inspiration first, which was to restrict the sacrament for a month. I figured I was outnumbered. 4 months later she got pregnant by that guy, at about the time I was leaving the ward.

I do read of guys being excommunicated for porn viewing.

And as we've discussed, I also see several cases of wives blowing up families because they are dissatisfied with his income and want a more extravagant lifestyle. Lusting after material things. No disciplinary action taken. No shame whatsoever.

When you see a lust targeted at the exclusion of lusts that are more destructive, you have to ask what is going on. It is obvious to me this whole War on Porn is an anti-male agenda. It is about power and control.

Women can exchange sex for whatever they want - a man's labor, his money, protection, etc. Sex is their most valuable asset, and it is what most men most desire. If a woman can gain a monopoly over a man's sexuality, that gives her more power. She can get more goods/services for less sex. And since women are overall less sexual than men, they like not having to do it as much. Many women, as we've read here, think sex is gross.

So it turns out that for some reason, God made men in particular to have dirty, nasty, disgusting, obscene thoughts and desires. We are wired to be attracted to women's bodies. So when a young man reaches puberty, he is suddenly a vile creature, in need of continual repentance. He needs to be regularly shamed to control his thoughts. He can be attracted to girls just enough to want to take them on dates, and marry them and earn money, but no more. Sex is not to be enjoyed,

Women, on the other hand, were created as sweet, pure, and wholesome. They can lust after money, or food, or big houses, or tall, dark, handsome men, and can file for divorce for whatever reason, and no problem. They were victims, after all.

Women can also deny sex endlessly with no shame. We read on here of one man being denied for 18 years by his RS president wife, in good standing with the church. Now if he were to fail to earn a paycheck, he would be reprimanded, as I once was by our SP.

I often wonder why we don't put much shame on other lusts. Wonder how it would work to berate women for overspending or overeating. Must be nice to just happen to have lusts that don't matter. How many women could restrain their spending if they had lots of money? How many could restrain their eating if good food is all around. Probably about the same as the number of men who can control their porn viewing when it is easily available.

And yet they have a holier-than-thou attitude about it all. Can't control their lusts, but expect others to control theirs. Jesus didn't like hypocrites. Read how this wife reacts to her husband battling his porn problem. Spreading gossip to all she can, to get "support". Actually, using shame to humiliate him.
https://www.mormonwomen.com/interview/w ... hits-home/

Men are becoming aware they are to be asexual. No lustful thoughts, no porn, no masturbation, and when they are married, they don't necessarily get sex. Sex is not to be enjoyed. Be a man, and forget it. Sacrifice. Don't be selfish.

In the end, as men are told more and more how disgusting they are, more will check out of the whole marriage scene, and go MGTOW. That is where we are heading.

So, what do you think healthy sexuality looks like? And do you have some scriptural support for your idea?

[brianj]

The actual amount of immorality hasn't really increased all that much, as the world has always been full of perversions and immorality. The difference is that my generation and future generations are being exposed to that immorality on an unprecedented level, that access to such immorality has increased, and that immorality is more open and mainstream in nature than it was before.

I'm going to disagree with you here. It is true that people haven't been as moral as we were taught in the past; in puritan times many marriages happened after a young woman got pregnant. But these days marriage rates are at historic lows. Homosexuality is far more widespread than ever before, as are porn, human trafficking, promiscuity, and other moral vices. I have no doubt that the unprecedented levels of exposure to immorality and mainstreaming of immoral behavior has significantly increased immoral behavior.

[Fiannan]

As long as members do not recognize that the #1 source of evil in our society is the TV set, more specifically prime time and daytime entertainment on the alphabet (non cable) networks, then things are going to get worse. In fact, porn is probably less a threat to morality than regular TV because the average viewer of porn knows it is a fantasy being presented while hours and hours of TV programming bypasses cognitive barriers and goes directly to the sub conscious emotional portions of our psyche.

[Durzan]

Just would like to say one thing...

Both men and women are sexual creatures. How and what arouses them is different in nature.

[Benjamin_LK]

The act of unchastity is worse. However, porn is feeding your temptation to commit the act. You should be pulling and moving away from temptation, or turning away (repent means to turn away ) from the temptations.