LDS Freedom Forum

RocknRoll wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 8:45 am

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 5:55 pm
I would expect that you would say that.

Someone entirely incapable of properly understanding or giving consent . . .hmm well you think you've got me, but you don't. Is 16 too young to give consent? What about 14? 12? 10?

Well, according to the law, it's 18.

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:47 am As to your question about the GAs, I don't have the answers. I have no idea why the Church is allowing this evilness into its ranks. I have lots of ideas-I don't really know which one (if any) is correct.

Maybe it’s time for you to take a step back and think about the possibility that it is you that is incorrect in your thinking and not the General Authorities. Do you honestly believe the church is in apostasy?

I feel very confident that the current middle way is unsustainable long-term. Long-term, you can not say identifying as a homosexual is not a sin and not eventually accept homosexuality. It is just logically not feasible to do. To identify as something, but to not act in accordance with that identity will only bring about cognitive dissonance and much mental anguish. It is a delusion to say one is xyz but then one doesn't do the things that xyz does. I can't identify as a father if I don't have children. I can't identify as as astronaut if I haven't trained as an astronaut. I can't identify as a lawyer if I haven't taken the classes and passed the bar. I can't identify as a boy if I don't have male part, I can't as a teenager if I'm 50. If I do identify as xyz without doing the things that xyz does-it's called delusion, lies, craziness. It becomes total fantasy with no basis in reality. You inherently act out what you identify as (or more precisely you act out how you THINK one would act when you identity as xyz)

It may seem illogical to you, but to most thinking people, it is most certainly possible. Your “logic” here doesn’t hold up.

As an organization they have only labeled it "sin" when only outward behavioral interactions with others are manifested. This is very, VERY dangerous and I don't know if they completely thought this one through.

So, you’re saying YOU have thought this through, but the apostles and prophets have not? I think It’s safer to stick with the opinions of those called of God.

This is critical to understand-the Church's current policy is that you can have an open homosexual as a Primary leader, as a Young Men's leader, as a EQP, as a Bishop, as a SP, as a Mission President, as a Temple President, as a GA, as an Apostle, as President of the Church. The ONLY requirement for position at Bishop and above is that they are married in the temple with a temple recommend.

That’s right. This is how it should be.

And there are PLENTY of cases of men who are married who claim they are homosexual. Just stop and think about that for a second.

The only thing that would stop an openly homosexual married to a woman from becoming a Bishop is if the ward refused to sustain him.

Now, do you REALLY want, as a parishioner, a man who being Bishop of your ward who is "married" but is an open homosexual? Do you want him teaching your ward, your children, calling individuals to positions?

Sure, why not? I wouldn’t have a problem with it, why do you?

This is NOT theoretical-there is currently a woman in a Utah singles ward serving as Relief Society President who claims she is bisexual and her husband is homosexual-but they are married to each other and therefore they commit no "sin".

I don’t see an issue here.

Do you honestly think this idea that you can be openly homosexual but as long as you don't "act on it" is going to last very long?

[ Yes, I do

In my opinion, there is a sifting occurring as the world get more and more wicked in preparation for Christ's coming. And in my opinion, if you want to be ready for it as President Nelson said, the Spirit and following the Spirit is going to be critical.

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:47 am

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 8:12 pm

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 6:25 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Really? Don't dont put words in my mouth. That is disgusting, if you believe same sex attraction is the same as being sexually attracted to little children you are just plain wrong

How is it logically different?

Case A: Sexually attracted to someone of the same sex. God has forbidden relations with the same sex.
Case B: Sexually attracted to a child. God has forbidden relationship with children.

It is IRRELEVANT whether the object of the attraction can CONSENT to the attraction.

Case A: Someone of the same sex finds me sexually attractive-I NEVER gave my consent for it.
Case B: Someone finds my child sexually attractive-my child NEVER gave consent for it.

Yes it is logically EXACTLY the same. And it is the reason why pedophilia WILL become accepted unless homosexuality is rejected.

No, you are the one deceived. I am NOT wrong here. The problem is too many people are absolutely 100% enthralled and deceived by Lucifer and they REFUSE to see the connection.

They have been told over and over and over 1000 times, homosexuals are just like everyone else, love is love and then they see friends/neighbors/family members, come out as "gay" and they think . . .well it's not that bad, why would they choose to be homosexual? God made them that way.

You need to study history. Pedophilia or more commonly known as pedastry was common in the ancient world. There is a reason why it is not common in our culture and society . . . Sexuality is TRAINED, just like any other thing, it is trained/learned/molded/shaped.

You are being lead by Satan on this issue . . . and so are a whole host of other LDS members too and in fact a significant portion of the Church. May God have mercy on those who are deceived when they find out the awful truth.

I do not think those are fair nor accurate comparison at all... but I will admit I'm having a hard time with what the general Authority are saying on the subject of same-sex attraction. I've always thought if you're experiencing continued same-sex attraction you have not been born again, you're not putting off the natural man, you have not crucified your natural man as the Apostle Paul would say. those who do not put off the natural man are without God. How does that aligned with recent statements made by the GA? I don't know. I have a hard time just outright saying the GA is wrong though.

All that really matters for me is that I have taken off my natural man. I do not live by my carnal nature. I use to have sex with different women that I found found attractive... would my hell have been any worse than someone who is living a homosexual lifestyle? ?? No, I don't think it would.

I never said the bold. Honestly, I have no idea which hell is "worse", I don't even think it really matters-which is "worse". They are both gross sin and certainly both according to scripture among the worst that man can do (murder being top). I don't think it's useful to try and pick out which one is worse than the other.

I understand you don't think it's a fair comparison; as this wickedness and evil progresses and spreads across the land, I do believe if you are truly seeking God, reading the scriptures, putting off the natural man the answers will come to you. I think what you have said about the natural man is 100% correct.

As to your question about the GAs, I don't have the answers. I have no idea why the Church is allowing this evilness into its ranks. I have lots of ideas-I don't really know which one (if any) is correct.

I feel very confident that the current middle way is unsustainable long-term. Long-term, you can not say identifying as a homosexual is not a sin and not eventually accept homosexuality. It is just logically not feasible to do. To identify as something, but to not act in accordance with that identity will only bring about cognitive dissonance and much mental anguish. It is a delusion to say one is xyz but then one doesn't do the things that xyz does. I can't identify as a father if I don't have children. I can't identify as as astronaut if I haven't trained as an astronaut. I can't identify as a lawyer if I haven't taken the classes and passed the bar. I can't identify as a boy if I don't have male part, I can't as a teenager if I'm 50. If I do identify as xyz without doing the things that xyz does-it's called delusion, lies, craziness. It becomes total fantasy with no basis in reality. You inherently act out what you identify as (or more precisely you act out how you THINK one would act when you identity as xyz)

As an organization they have only labeled it "sin" when only outward behavioral interactions with others are manifested. This is very, VERY dangerous and I don't know if they completely thought this one through.

This is critical to understand-the Church's current policy is that you can have an open homosexual as a Primary leader, as a Young Men's leader, as a EQP, as a Bishop, as a SP, as a Mission President, as a Temple President, as a GA, as an Apostle, as President of the Church. The ONLY requirement for position at Bishop and above is that they are married in the temple with a temple recommend.

And there are PLENTY of cases of men who are married who claim they are homosexual. Just stop and think about that for a second.

The only thing that would stop an openly homosexual married to a woman from becoming a Bishop is if the ward refused to sustain him.

Now, do you REALLY want, as a parishioner, a man who being Bishop of your ward who is "married" but is an open homosexual? Do you want him teaching your ward, your children, calling individuals to positions?

This is NOT theoretical-there is currently a woman in a Utah singles ward serving as Relief Society President who claims she is bisexual and her husband is homosexual-but they are married to each other and therefore they commit no "sin".

Do you honestly think this idea that you can be openly homosexual but as long as you don't "act on it" is going to last very long?

In my opinion, there is a sifting occurring as the world get more and more wicked in preparation for Christ's coming. And in my opinion, if you want to be ready for it as President Nelson said, the Spirit and following the Spirit is going to be critical.

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 10:07 am I'm 29, I stopped going to church when I was 15. My wife and I have been active for a few years now (she was also inactive for many years)and it's like we have come back to a church and it's people that did not exist when we were young. one of my first Sundays back I noticed a little boy wearing a dress!!! That same Sunday in EQ the lesson turned into a discussion about how Job from the bible was not a real man,that it's just a story to teach us...

illyume wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 5:41 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 5:21 pm

RocknRoll wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 4:36 pm

EmmaLee wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 4:17 pm

It's as relevant as all the other posts on this thread not directly related to the OP, but thanks for just choosing mine to highlight.

Raise of hands, please - how many of you, 20 years ago, would have thought same-sex marriage would ever be made "legal" in the U.S.? And that the LDS Church would do a 180 and say being "gay" or "homosexual" was not a sin? Maybe I'm the only one (who will admit publicly to it anyway...) who never thought either would happen - but look where we are now. This is RELEVANT because this (what I posted here) is the (near) future, whether you like it or not, and whether you believe it or not.

In 1977 I never would have thought that Blacks would be given the priesthood. But in 1978, after the revelation, I wasn’t afraid that the church was now on a slippery slope that would ultimately give the priesthood to women. Just because the LDS church came to realize that being gay isn’t a sin, doesn’t mean they are on a slippery slope to accepting pedophilia as something other than sinful.

Don't get it twisted. People are not under condemnation for the attraction alone. Acting on the attraction mentally or physically is a sin. Living a homosexual lifestyle will get you excommunicated. Those who are excommunicated suffer the second death

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

9 And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

Second-death-sufferer here. Doing pretty okay in my "suffering".

Also still pretty sure that things going on between two consenting adults is pretty different from things going on between an adult and someone entirely incapable of properly understanding or giving consent. But maybe for some people it's a little more difficult to see a distinction there.

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 1:52 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 5:41 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 5:21 pm

RocknRoll wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 4:36 pm

In 1977 I never would have thought that Blacks would be given the priesthood. But in 1978, after the revelation, I wasn’t afraid that the church was now on a slippery slope that would ultimately give the priesthood to women. Just because the LDS church came to realize that being gay isn’t a sin, doesn’t mean they are on a slippery slope to accepting pedophilia as something other than sinful.

Don't get it twisted. People are not under condemnation for the attraction alone. Acting on the attraction mentally or physically is a sin. Living a homosexual lifestyle will get you excommunicated. Those who are excommunicated suffer the second death

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

9 And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

Second-death-sufferer here. Doing pretty okay in my "suffering".

Also still pretty sure that things going on between two consenting adults is pretty different from things going on between an adult and someone entirely incapable of properly understanding or giving consent. But maybe for some people it's a little more difficult to see a distinction there.

Do you believe the in the Testaments of Jesus Christ ?

BTW , I see the distinction in pedophiles, who should be executed, and the average gay person. I don't know why you said that to me.

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 2:11 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 1:52 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 5:41 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 5:21 pm

Don't get it twisted. People are not under condemnation for the attraction alone. Acting on the attraction mentally or physically is a sin. Living a homosexual lifestyle will get you excommunicated. Those who are excommunicated suffer the second death

8 Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.

9 And now behold, my son, do not risk one more offense against your God upon those points of doctrine, which ye have hitherto risked to commit sin.

10 Do not suppose, because it has been spoken concerning restoration, that ye shall be restored from sin to happiness. Behold, I say unto you, wickedness never was happiness.

11 And now, my son, all men that are in a state of nature, or I would say, in a carnal state, are in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; they are without God in the world, and they have gone contrary to the nature of God; therefore, they are in a state contrary to the nature of happiness.

12 And now behold, is the meaning of the word restoration to take a thing of a natural state and place it in an unnatural state, or to place it in a state opposite to its nature?

13 O, my son, this is not the case; but the meaning of the word restoration is to bring back again evil for evil, or carnal for carnal, or devilish for devilish—good for that which is good; righteous for that which is righteous; just for that which is just; merciful for that which is merciful.

Second-death-sufferer here. Doing pretty okay in my "suffering".

Also still pretty sure that things going on between two consenting adults is pretty different from things going on between an adult and someone entirely incapable of properly understanding or giving consent. But maybe for some people it's a little more difficult to see a distinction there.

Do you believe the in the Testaments of Jesus Christ ?

BTW , I see the distinction in pedophiles, who should be executed, and the average gay person. I don't know why you said that to me.

Used to believe, definitely don't now. Mormonism still pretty heavily affects my life though, which is why I'm here.

The rest of my comment is admittedly more directed toward the people earlier in that quote chain, rather than to you.

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 3:54 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 2:11 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 1:52 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 11th, 2018, 5:41 pm

Second-death-sufferer here. Doing pretty okay in my "suffering".

Also still pretty sure that things going on between two consenting adults is pretty different from things going on between an adult and someone entirely incapable of properly understanding or giving consent. But maybe for some people it's a little more difficult to see a distinction there.

Do you believe the in the Testaments of Jesus Christ ?

BTW , I see the distinction in pedophiles, who should be executed, and the average gay person. I don't know why you said that to me.

Used to believe, definitely don't now. Mormonism still pretty heavily affects my life though, which is why I'm here.

The rest of my comment is admittedly more directed toward the people earlier in that quote chain, rather than to you.

Brother, it's not Mormonism that is affecting you,it is Jesus Christ that is calling you. This is not the church of Moses or Mormon. This is the church of Jesus Christ.

When is the last time you opened up the Book of Mormon to the first book of Nephi and began to read?

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:22 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 3:54 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 2:11 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 1:52 pm

Do you believe the in the Testaments of Jesus Christ ?

BTW , I see the distinction in pedophiles, who should be executed, and the average gay person. I don't know why you said that to me.

Used to believe, definitely don't now. Mormonism still pretty heavily affects my life though, which is why I'm here.

The rest of my comment is admittedly more directed toward the people earlier in that quote chain, rather than to you.

Brother, it's not Mormonism that is affecting you,it is Jesus Christ that is calling you. This is not the church of Moses or Mormon. This is the church of Jesus Christ.

When is the last time you opened up the Book of Mormon to the first book of Nephi and began to read?

I suppose I could be more complete with my use of words, hmm? It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its teachings (colloquially known as "Mormonism") that most of my family still adheres to (and thus affects the way they and I interact), that positioned itself as the very most important thing possible through much of my childhood (and thus affected much of the way I and others around me saw the world), and that holds a great amount of influence on the public opinions and beliefs of most of the people in my home state (and thus affects the laws and perceptions of people in that state).

And as to reading the Book of Mormon? The last time I read it from start to finish was in October last year. That read-through was actually a pretty decisive factor in my decision to officially distance myself from the LDS Church. Since then? I don't really see much purpose in re-reading yet again a piece of literature I've read dozens of times and now find neither terribly enlightening nor entertaining.

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:30 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:22 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 3:54 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 2:11 pm

Used to believe, definitely don't now. Mormonism still pretty heavily affects my life though, which is why I'm here.

The rest of my comment is admittedly more directed toward the people earlier in that quote chain, rather than to you.

Brother, it's not Mormonism that is affecting you,it is Jesus Christ that is calling you. This is not the church of Moses or Mormon. This is the church of Jesus Christ.

When is the last time you opened up the Book of Mormon to the first book of Nephi and began to read?

I suppose I could be more complete with my use of words, hmm? It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its teachings (colloquially known as "Mormonism") that most of my family still adheres to (and thus affects the way they and I interact), that positioned itself as the very most important thing possible through much of my childhood (and thus affected much of the way I and others around me saw the world), and that holds a great amount of influence on the public opinions and beliefs of most of the people in my home state (and thus affects the laws and perceptions of people in that state).

And as to reading the Book of Mormon? The last time I read it from start to finish was in October last year. That read-through was actually a pretty decisive factor in my decision to officially distance myself from the LDS Church. Since then? I don't really see much purpose in re-reading yet again a piece of literature I've read dozens of times and now find neither terribly enlightening nor entertaining.

Did you pray while you read it? What was your mindset going into it?

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:43 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:30 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:22 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 3:54 pm

Brother, it's not Mormonism that is affecting you,it is Jesus Christ that is calling you. This is not the church of Moses or Mormon. This is the church of Jesus Christ.

When is the last time you opened up the Book of Mormon to the first book of Nephi and began to read?

I suppose I could be more complete with my use of words, hmm? It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its teachings (colloquially known as "Mormonism") that most of my family still adheres to (and thus affects the way they and I interact), that positioned itself as the very most important thing possible through much of my childhood (and thus affected much of the way I and others around me saw the world), and that holds a great amount of influence on the public opinions and beliefs of most of the people in my home state (and thus affects the laws and perceptions of people in that state).

And as to reading the Book of Mormon? The last time I read it from start to finish was in October last year. That read-through was actually a pretty decisive factor in my decision to officially distance myself from the LDS Church. Since then? I don't really see much purpose in re-reading yet again a piece of literature I've read dozens of times and now find neither terribly enlightening nor entertaining.

Did you pray while you read it? What was your mindset going into it?

Yes, I prayed while reading, before, and after. Many times, earnestly. It wasn't something I was going to just let go easily!

And my mindset going into it could probably best summed up as "What's right? What's true? What should I do? What have I founded my life on, and what should I do moving forward?"

But... I'm going to guess the only possible explanation for my not receiving an answer of "Yes the Book of Mormon is the Word of God" is that something I did was wrong--that I wasn't sincere enough, didn't try hard enough, wasn't open enough to the Spirit, or something?

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:25 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:43 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:30 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:22 pm

I suppose I could be more complete with my use of words, hmm? It's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and its teachings (colloquially known as "Mormonism") that most of my family still adheres to (and thus affects the way they and I interact), that positioned itself as the very most important thing possible through much of my childhood (and thus affected much of the way I and others around me saw the world), and that holds a great amount of influence on the public opinions and beliefs of most of the people in my home state (and thus affects the laws and perceptions of people in that state).

And as to reading the Book of Mormon? The last time I read it from start to finish was in October last year. That read-through was actually a pretty decisive factor in my decision to officially distance myself from the LDS Church. Since then? I don't really see much purpose in re-reading yet again a piece of literature I've read dozens of times and now find neither terribly enlightening nor entertaining.

Did you pray while you read it? What was your mindset going into it?

Yes, I prayed while reading, before, and after. Many times, earnestly. It wasn't something I was going to just let go easily!

And my mindset going into it could probably best summed up as "What's right? What's true? What should I do? What have I founded my life on, and what should I do moving forward?"

But... I'm going to guess the only possible explanation for my not receiving an answer of "Yes the Book of Mormon is the Word of God" is that something I did was wrong--that I wasn't sincere enough, didn't try hard enough, wasn't open enough to the Spirit, or something?

Do it again. This time offer up a sacrifice in the form of abstinence, refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation. And include fasting to this most important endeavor. You claim to not want to let go easily...Prove it.

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:31 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:25 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:43 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:30 pm

Did you pray while you read it? What was your mindset going into it?

Yes, I prayed while reading, before, and after. Many times, earnestly. It wasn't something I was going to just let go easily!

And my mindset going into it could probably best summed up as "What's right? What's true? What should I do? What have I founded my life on, and what should I do moving forward?"

But... I'm going to guess the only possible explanation for my not receiving an answer of "Yes the Book of Mormon is the Word of God" is that something I did was wrong--that I wasn't sincere enough, didn't try hard enough, wasn't open enough to the Spirit, or something?

Do it again. This time offer up a sacrifice in the form of abstinence, refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation. And include fasting to this most important endeavor. You claim to not want to let go easily...Prove it.

That very much was part of it when I did! So, with that... what new requirements are you going to set to explain that I didn't try hard enough?

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:46 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:31 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:25 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:43 pm

Yes, I prayed while reading, before, and after. Many times, earnestly. It wasn't something I was going to just let go easily!

And my mindset going into it could probably best summed up as "What's right? What's true? What should I do? What have I founded my life on, and what should I do moving forward?"

But... I'm going to guess the only possible explanation for my not receiving an answer of "Yes the Book of Mormon is the Word of God" is that something I did was wrong--that I wasn't sincere enough, didn't try hard enough, wasn't open enough to the Spirit, or something?

Do it again. This time offer up a sacrifice in the form of abstinence, refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation. And include fasting to this most important endeavor. You claim to not want to let go easily...Prove it.

That very much was part of it when I did! So, with that... what new requirements are you going to set to explain that I didn't try hard enough?

Do it again. Jesus repeated Commandments for a reason. A prophet once counsel to read the book of Mormon three times and on the third time something would become... I'm sure you read it a bunch of times but in this stage in your life offer up that sacrifice and do it again.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:31 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:25 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:43 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:30 pm

Did you pray while you read it? What was your mindset going into it?

Yes, I prayed while reading, before, and after. Many times, earnestly. It wasn't something I was going to just let go easily!

And my mindset going into it could probably best summed up as "What's right? What's true? What should I do? What have I founded my life on, and what should I do moving forward?"

But... I'm going to guess the only possible explanation for my not receiving an answer of "Yes the Book of Mormon is the Word of God" is that something I did was wrong--that I wasn't sincere enough, didn't try hard enough, wasn't open enough to the Spirit, or something?

Do it again. This time offer up a sacrifice in the form of abstinence, refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation. And include fasting to this most important endeavor. You claim to not want to let go easily...Prove it.

That very much was part of it when I did! So, with that... what new requirements are you going to set to explain that I didn't try hard enough?

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:03 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:31 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:25 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 4:43 pm

Yes, I prayed while reading, before, and after. Many times, earnestly. It wasn't something I was going to just let go easily!

And my mindset going into it could probably best summed up as "What's right? What's true? What should I do? What have I founded my life on, and what should I do moving forward?"

But... I'm going to guess the only possible explanation for my not receiving an answer of "Yes the Book of Mormon is the Word of God" is that something I did was wrong--that I wasn't sincere enough, didn't try hard enough, wasn't open enough to the Spirit, or something?

Do it again. This time offer up a sacrifice in the form of abstinence, refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation. And include fasting to this most important endeavor. You claim to not want to let go easily...Prove it.

That very much was part of it when I did! So, with that... what new requirements are you going to set to explain that I didn't try hard enough?

I'm just going to go out on a limb here . . maybe what is hanging you up is homosexuality? Maybe prior to a witness about the BoM you need to change to be heterosexual . . .maybe in the actual change from homosexual to heterosexual you gain a testimony of Christ power to change our very beings and in so doing you gain a testimony of the BoM??

Just a thought, and I do hope you consider the above with complete sincerity. While I despise the gross sin of homosexuality; I do not despise you. You are my brother and I pray and hope that you will be able to overcome this through Christ's Atonement. I pray and hope that through His Atonement you can gain the wonderful, glorious testimony of His redeeming life, that it is in and through Him that we are saved, that in and through Him our Elder Brother-we can truly be changed, be made new men, be made new thoughts, new feelings, a completely new individual. It's not just prayer and hope, it's faith-it's faith that through Christ- you can and will be made to be new.

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:54 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:46 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:31 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:25 pm

Do it again. This time offer up a sacrifice in the form of abstinence, refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation. And include fasting to this most important endeavor. You claim to not want to let go easily...Prove it.

That very much was part of it when I did! So, with that... what new requirements are you going to set to explain that I didn't try hard enough?

Do it again. Jesus repeated Commandments for a reason. A prophet once counsel to read the book of Mormon three times and on the third time something would become... I'm sure you read it a bunch of times but in this stage in your life offer up that sacrifice and do it again.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

So what, keep trying the same thing over and over until I wear myself out completely, or until I die? Because The only possible answer is that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and that the LDS Church is true? And if I'm not getting that answer, I'm simply not sacrificing enough, not trying hard enough, not enduring long enough?

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:42 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:54 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:46 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:31 pm

That very much was part of it when I did! So, with that... what new requirements are you going to set to explain that I didn't try hard enough?

Do it again. Jesus repeated Commandments for a reason. A prophet once counsel to read the book of Mormon three times and on the third time something would become... I'm sure you read it a bunch of times but in this stage in your life offer up that sacrifice and do it again.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

So what, keep trying the same thing over and over until I wear myself out completely, or until I die? Because The only possible answer is that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and that the LDS Church is true? And if I'm not getting that answer, I'm simply not sacrificing enough, not trying hard enough, not enduring long enough?

Brother I guarantee that if you keep trying you will know Jesus Christ is God. what's in the Book of Mormon and the New Testament are his words and the words that we must live by because these are the words that we will be judged by. In these Testaments of Jesus Christ are the keys to putting off the natural man. do not choose the easy way brother, do not live by your natural man. Try again

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:18 pm

mgridle1 wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:03 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:31 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:25 pm

Do it again. This time offer up a sacrifice in the form of abstinence, refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation. And include fasting to this most important endeavor. You claim to not want to let go easily...Prove it.

That very much was part of it when I did! So, with that... what new requirements are you going to set to explain that I didn't try hard enough?

I'm just going to go out on a limb here . . maybe what is hanging you up is homosexuality? Maybe prior to a witness about the BoM you need to change to be heterosexual . . .maybe in the actual change from homosexual to heterosexual you gain a testimony of Christ power to change our very beings and in so doing you gain a testimony of the BoM??

Just a thought, and I do hope you consider the above with complete sincerity. While I despise the gross sin of homosexuality; I do not despise you. You are my brother and I pray and hope that you will be able to overcome this through Christ's Atonement. I pray and hope that through His Atonement you can gain the wonderful, glorious testimony of His redeeming life, that it is in and through Him that we are saved, that in and through Him our Elder Brother-we can truly be changed, be made new men, be made new thoughts, new feelings, a completely new individual. It's not just prayer and hope, it's faith-it's faith that through Christ- you can and will be made to be new.

Why yes, that's so simple! I'll just decide to give up homosexuality and start being straight!

Unfortunately, life isn't that simple. Sexual orientation isn't that simple. And do you think that's not something I've tried? Cried my heart out to God to change? To take my "abominable perversions" from me? I spent the entire two years of my mission begging God to accept my efforts to do what I thought was right, pleading to have the power of Christ's Atonement change me. Spent years after my mission trying to find some way to make a proper relationship with a young woman work!

Maybe I just didn't try hard enough for that, either.

I guess that's the crux of the church's teachings though. No matter what you do, it's never enough.

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:18 pmWhy yes, that's so simple! I'll just decide to give up homosexuality and start being straight!

Unfortunately, life isn't that simple. Sexual orientation isn't that simple. And do you think that's not something I've tried? Cried my heart out to God to change? To take my "abominable perversions" from me? I spent the entire two years of my mission begging God to accept my efforts to do what I thought was right, pleading to have the power of Christ's Atonement change me. Spent years after my mission trying to find some way to make a proper relationship with a young woman work!

Maybe I just didn't try hard enough for that, either.

I guess that's the crux of the church's teachings though. No matter what you do, it's never enough.

BackBlast wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:56 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:18 pmWhy yes, that's so simple! I'll just decide to give up homosexuality and start being straight!

Unfortunately, life isn't that simple. Sexual orientation isn't that simple. And do you think that's not something I've tried? Cried my heart out to God to change? To take my "abominable perversions" from me? I spent the entire two years of my mission begging God to accept my efforts to do what I thought was right, pleading to have the power of Christ's Atonement change me. Spent years after my mission trying to find some way to make a proper relationship with a young woman work!

Maybe I just didn't try hard enough for that, either.

I guess that's the crux of the church's teachings though. No matter what you do, it's never enough.

I believe that usually when people feel this way they are doing the wrong thing, asking for the wrong thing. The Lord is in charge and asking that our trials be removed often isn't what will help us. I progress the most and best when I try to put myself in tune with what He would have me do. Figure out what that is, and then do it. Sometimes it's doing something really hard, like forsaking sin and giving your heart to Him. Other times it's just hanging on for dear life.

But sometimes the thing really just is that hard.

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:51 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:42 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:54 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:46 pm

Do it again. Jesus repeated Commandments for a reason. A prophet once counsel to read the book of Mormon three times and on the third time something would become... I'm sure you read it a bunch of times but in this stage in your life offer up that sacrifice and do it again.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

So what, keep trying the same thing over and over until I wear myself out completely, or until I die? Because The only possible answer is that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and that the LDS Church is true? And if I'm not getting that answer, I'm simply not sacrificing enough, not trying hard enough, not enduring long enough?

Brother I guarantee that if you keep trying you will know Jesus Christ is God. what's in the Book of Mormon and the New Testament are his words and the words that we must live by because these are the words that we will be judged by. In these Testaments of Jesus Christ are the keys to putting off the natural man. do not choose the easy way brother, do not live by your natural man. Try again

I feel like I have to ask again: How many years is enough? How much sacrifice is sufficient? How many times does someone need to read and re-read the Book of Mormon before they can be allowed to say "I don't feel this is right" or "I didn't get an answer" or anything to that effect? Is there any possible circumstance where a person can be allowed to say "I took Moroni's challenge, and the answer was no, the book's not true"?

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 8:34 pm

BackBlast wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:56 pm I believe that usually when people feel this way they are doing the wrong thing, asking for the wrong thing. The Lord is in charge and asking that our trials be removed often isn't what will help us. I progress the most and best when I try to put myself in tune with what He would have me do. Figure out what that is, and then do it. Sometimes it's doing something really hard, like forsaking sin and giving your heart to Him. Other times it's just hanging on for dear life.

But sometimes the thing really just is that hard.

So... what, was I wrong in asking to have my desires changed? Asking to have my attraction toward men replaced with attraction toward women wasn't the right request?

And there were plenty of days where my prayers were just pleading to be led by the Lord, for assistance making it through just one more day, and so on.

But I guess it still comes back to "either you get the answer that the church is the right way to go, or you're doing something wrong."

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:54 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:46 pm

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:31 pm

NIGHTLIGHT wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 5:25 pm

Do it again. This time offer up a sacrifice in the form of abstinence, refrain from all sexual activity, including masturbation. And include fasting to this most important endeavor. You claim to not want to let go easily...Prove it.

That very much was part of it when I did! So, with that... what new requirements are you going to set to explain that I didn't try hard enough?

Do it again. Jesus repeated Commandments for a reason. A prophet once counsel to read the book of Mormon three times and on the third time something would become... I'm sure you read it a bunch of times but in this stage in your life offer up that sacrifice and do it again.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

So what, keep trying the same thing over and over until I wear myself out completely, or until I die? Because The only possible answer is that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God, and that the LDS Church is true? And if I'm not getting that answer, I'm simply not sacrificing enough, not trying hard enough, not enduring long enough?

illyume wrote: ↑July 12th, 2018, 6:51 pm I feel like I have to ask again: How many years is enough? How much sacrifice is sufficient? How many times does someone need to read and re-read the Book of Mormon before they can be allowed to say "I don't feel this is right" or "I didn't get an answer" or anything to that effect? Is there any possible circumstance where a person can be allowed to say "I took Moroni's challenge, and the answer was no, the book's not true"?