LDS Freedom Forum

For instance are there times when it is not only OK, but right to bear false witness?

Regards,

George Clay

Certainly. When you're hiding Jews in your basement and the SS stop by, to name a classic example.

captainfearnot,

Certainly. When you're hiding Jews in your basement and the SS stop by, to name a classic example.

Darn! You spoiled my plan. I was planning on bringing this up after a bit of dialog

Are you familiar with this guy ?



Do you have any idea how many lies, forgeries and deceptions he performed in his life?

Regards,

George Clay

"Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou. art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary. deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver. thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison."

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves"

Isn't what Adam and Eve did referred to as a transgression?

natasha,

Isn't what Adam and Eve did referred to as a transgression?

That is true. The discussion we had in Gospel Doctrine about this is at the root of this thread. We could not come here and gain bodies, and God's plan would not have happened had Eve, and then Adam not transgressed.

We were given a homework assignment prior to class to come up with an example of a Transgression that was not a sin. I brought up Raoul Wallenberg, the man whose picture is above. He was a Swedish Diplomat who saved over 100,000 Jews from the holocaust through, lies, forged passports, and many other deceptions.

Everybody has heard of Oskar Schindler, because of a famous Stephan Spielberg movie, but almost nobody has heard of Raoul Walleberg. Not only did Wallenberg save many more Jews than Schindler, but he paid a heavy price for his heroism. When the Soviets conquered Hungary, they took him prisoner and he had to spend the rest of his life in the Soviet Gulags. Nobody cared much except the thousands of people he saved and to a lesser extent the Swedish government, and they had no sway with the Soviets.

So he saved over 100,000 Jews from dieing in German (or Hungarian) prison camps only to be forced to live the rest of his life in a Soviet one.

However, as for me if I had the chance and the guts, I would tell the same lies he did. I also believe that there is a place in the Celestial Kingdom reserved for this Righteous Gentile!

Regards,

George Clay

gclayjr wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 10:39 am captainfearnot,

Certainly. When you're hiding Jews in your basement and the SS stop by, to name a classic example.

Darn! You spoiled my plan. I was planning on bringing this up after a bit of dialog

Are you familiar with this guy ?



Do you have any idea how many lies, forgeries and deceptions he performed in his life?

Regards,

George Clay

It’s a very interesting topic. Most religious and philosophical views that I’ve seen says that it’s never okay to lie, that it’s always immoral. St. Augustine believed it was always wrong, Immanuel Kant, The Catholic Church etc. I Nietzsche is the only one off the top of my head that i think contradicts them.

President Oaks had a talk about this long ago.

http://www.lds-mormon.com/oakslying.shtml (can’t find a link to anywhere else)

In summary, he mentions difficult circumstances. He doesn’t have an answer, he doesn’t know. It’s not for us to judge, only for God. The talk is given in the context of “lying for the Lord” about Polygamy, mostly referring to church leaders, but the clear message still is that it’s never permissble to lie for members of the church, and for leaders of the church.

I once read that Righteousness overpowers Virtue. Lying is not a virtuous act, but it would be righteous to protect the innocent family in your basement and so the righteousness of your act overpowers the lack of virtue in lying, making it “okay”. This can also be used to describe how the Lord can destroy the wicked, as it would seem to be wicked to kill millions of people. The righteousness of his actions overpower the lack of virtue of the act of killing. Idk, sounds confusing but kinda makes sense to me.

Looking Upon the Heart and Discerning "Intention."

Jeremiah 4:
4 Circumcise yourselves to the Lord, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Evil (to "L.I.V.E." backwards) is to "lie" and "deceive" with malicious, sadistic intent. It is to be rebellious with spite. It is without "LOVE" or "HOPE" or "FAITH." It is being "hard hearted" and not caring of others.

In extreme circumstances, such as noted above - saving people's lives, I would lie all day. Lying is a sin, not a transgression. A transgression is when you have a choice to do or not to do. A sin is breaking a commandment that does not offer choices. I will accept the consequences for sinning in this form, that is, saving lives.

It is right when done by God's commandment. Abraham technically disobeyed the commandment to not kill, let alone child sacrifice, but he did (or was willing to) at God's command and it was accounted him for righteousness. He was likewise commanded of God to deliberately lie to Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister.

Obviously transgressing on any other grounds is wrong. The only time it is justified is when obeying a higher command from God/authorized priesthood holder.

It's my personal opinion that not all of God's commandments are equal. Some are more critical than others. Perhaps a given set of circumstances would arise in which the higher commandment may somewhat infringe on the lower. In such situations one simply needs to be in tune with the Holy Spirit and act as constrained by God.

Also here's a point...

But the persons pushing you to be tempted to lie. BY what right do they have to confront you? Their authority is a lie since this Earth belongs to God and Jesus. So by pushing you into a corner they are using the lie of borrowed authority. So if you are trying to escape Babylon and from them, you could say that some trying to avoid the illusions of the great and spacious building are going to be necessary. And one of the great illusions of Satan is to try to make you think that you are trapped and that the only escape is to cheat morality. It doesn't necessarily mean that that's the only way out though...he just tries to make you think it is. If you look a bit closer and use the Spirit then it will open up a way for you if you are obedient, repentant, and righteous enough.

There is also I think more to the differences between lies and transgressions but I want to think on it a bit before I go into that, so that I can hope for more inspiration on it and how to point it out rightly.

Bwboy wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 12:36 am

Jules wrote: ↑December 21st, 2014, 10:09 pm The identity of the Holy Ghost is revealed in the endowment ceremony, among other places. This might help - Jeremy wrote an amazing article that helps clarify this. It's well worth the long read:

http://www.journeytothefullness.com/the ... endowment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you for sharing this. Very enlightening.

I concur, as it well explains why it was ok for Nephi to slay Laban.

gardener4life wrote: ↑February 9th, 2018, 7:42 pm Also here's a point...

But the persons pushing you to be tempted to lie. BY what right do they have to confront you? Their authority is a lie since this Earth belongs to God and Jesus. So by pushing you into a corner they are using the lie of borrowed authority. So if you are trying to escape Babylon and from them, you could say that some trying to avoid the illusions of the great and spacious building are going to be necessary. And one of the great illusions of Satan is to try to make you think that you are trapped and that the only escape is to cheat morality. It doesn't necessarily mean that that's the only way out though...he just tries to make you think it is. If you look a bit closer and use the Spirit then it will open up a way for you if you are obedient, repentant, and righteous enough.

There is also I think more to the differences between lies and transgressions but I want to think on it a bit before I go into that, so that I can hope for more inspiration on it and how to point it out rightly.

Your point is valid, since Eve was tempted (or, beguiled) by the stinky serpent who did not have a physical or elemental human body.

I would say it is a mute point, since we have all done it. At this point, what we need to focus on, is should we repent? And the answer to that is YES.

So, confessions; anyone? j/k

Juliet,

would say it is a mute point, since we have all done it. At this point, what we need to focus on, is should we repent? And the answer to that is YES.

If I was Wallenberg, and my lies saved the lives of 100,000 Jews, I would not regret my actions. If given the chance to do it again, I would, so what would I be repenting of?

Regards,

George Clay

Saving Jews from the Nazis is a pretty easy one, because it's an act of war. Obviously it's okay to kill your enemy in wartime, so it follows that it's also okay to steal from him, lie to him, etc. A self defense scenario is similar.

But what about other circumstances of desperation? Is it okay to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family, for instance? There are a ton of "ox in the mire" scenarios that we could dream up, but I guess it all depends on whether the situation truly absolves what would otherwise amount to a transgression, or if we are merely trying to justify our actions.

Then there are the little lies we tell all day long just to navigate our society. Everything from insincere social niceties (as illustrated in the OP) to the lies that are part and parcel of professions like sales and the law. How much of that is justified in service of a higher good?

captainfearnot,

Then there are the little lies we tell all day long just to navigate our society. Everything from insincere social niceties (as illustrated in the OP) to the lies that are part and parcel of professions like sales and the law. How much of that is justified in service of a higher good?

No doubt a very slippery slope. Usually better not to transgress.

However, I think it does bring some clarity about

Eve taking the fruit
Abraham telling Pharaoh that Sarah was his sister
Nephi killing Laban
Joseph Smith being less than candid about plural marriage

and yes Roaul Wallenburg lying to Nazis

etc.

Regards,

George Clay

captainfearnot wrote: ↑February 10th, 2018, 11:22 am Saving Jews from the Nazis is a pretty easy one, because it's an act of war. Obviously it's okay to kill your enemy in wartime, so it follows that it's also okay to steal from him, lie to him, etc. A self defense scenario is similar.

But what about other circumstances of desperation? Is it okay to steal a loaf of bread to feed your starving family, for instance? There are a ton of "ox in the mire" scenarios that we could dream up, but I guess it all depends on whether the situation truly absolves what would otherwise amount to a transgression, or if we are merely trying to justify our actions.

Then there are the little lies we tell all day long just to navigate our society. Everything from insincere social niceties (as illustrated in the OP) to the lies that are part and parcel of professions like sales and the law. How much of that is justified in service of a higher good?

Your point is very true. Then there are people like me constantly getting schooled by my wife for telling people the truth which they find offensive and she wants me to stop offending people. but I just can't help it. This cultural lying thing kind of reminds me of shows like "Eddies Father" or "The Dick Van Dyke Show" where people regularly lie in order to keep from hurting someone's feelings. The Drill Sergeant says, "We ain't got time for lies, you people need the truth so you can kill the enemy, which most of you are incapable of. You idiots really think you're something."

I think there was a way for Adam and Eve to keep both commandments and not transgress but that is my own revelation. (Hint, it was Adam's transgression.)

I don't think God gives us a commandment without providing a way to fulfill it. The key is to hear His voice and thereby know the right thing to do in every situation. Sometimes, agree with your adversary. Sometimes, be silent. Sometimes, stand and say the truth. Without discernment then the law isn't worth much.

Adam and Eve did the right thing, it took an imperfect act to get us here - God is incapable of an imperfect act. Adam and Eve's transgression is the second greatest blessing that we have ever received.