Yes, this is a topic that I have pondered and studied in the Scriptures and words of living prophets for over 10 years and the verdict is still out for me on the details. There is good evidence for both sides and opinions on both sides all the way up to the twelve and first presidencies of the past. One scripture that has made me ponder quite a bit is D&C 19:
4 And surely every man must repent or suffer, for I, God, am endless.
5 Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand.
6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.
7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.
8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.
9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest.
10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—
11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.
12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.
13 Wherefore, I command you to repent, and keep the commandments which you have received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., in my name;
14 And it is by my almighty power that you have received them;
15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.
16 For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;
17 But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;
18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—
19 Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
20 Wherefore, I command you again to repent, lest I humble you with my almighty power; and that you confess your sins, lest you suffer these punishments of which I have spoken, of which in the smallest, yea, even in the least degree you have tasted at the time I withdrew my Spirit.
21 And I command you that you preach naught but repentance, and show not these things unto the world until it is wisdom in me.
22 For they cannot bear meat now, but milk they must receive; wherefore, they must not know these things, lest they perish.
An old forum friend Bob Henstra (who has passed on) and I started talking about this several years ago. He has probably done more research on the topic then anyone I know. In 2006 he sent me a presentation on salvation that he had studied most of his life. Ironically we lost touch for several years and I didn't discover he was on this forum until fairly recently. This is him
This is long but I will include, and is what he sent me back in 2006.
Just what is Salvation? Just who is saved?
Supposing is good, but finding out is better." - Mark Twain
There exists today a modern Need to Search the Scriptures. The biggest problem people have in understanding the scriptures or the words of the Prophets, is one of simply not understanding what the words and terms used in gospel dialog mean, how they are defined. Defining a word or term incorrectly leads to incorrect beliefs which create "stumbling blocks" or impediments to learning that must first be overcome, the incomplete or partially and sometimes totally false beliefs and teachings then corrected before further truth may be obtained, thereby increasing true faith and knowledge.
Alma explains the blessings of proper study of the scriptures and the destructive results of willful ignorance of the word of God.
(Alma 12:9-11.) And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.
"The portion of his word" are the scriptures and the words of our modern day prophets.
10. And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full.
11. And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries; and then they are taken captive by the devil, and led by his will down to destruction. Now this is what is meant by the chains of hell.
Brother McConkie explains to us how to avoid or escape entanglements in the "chains of hell."
(Bruce R. McConkie) Since salvation comes to those who both know and do the will of the Lord, the saints are under express command both to search the scriptures and to keep the commandments. (John 5:39; D. & C. 1:37-39; 3 Ne. 23.) They are to " teach one another the doctrine of the kingdom" (D. & C. 88:77), for "It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance" of God, of Christ, and of the gospel laws. (D. & C. 131:6.) (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Vol. 1 page 59)
To learn the doctrines of salvation men, Elder McConkie continues;
(1)
Must search the scriptures diligently themselves (3 Ne. 23);
(2)
They must hearken to the voice of the prophets and inspired interpreters of the divine word who are sent among them; and
(3) They must themselves so live as to have the spirit and gift of scriptural understanding and interpretation.
"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus," Paul taught the Romans, "and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. . . . For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! . . . So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Rom. 10:9-17.)
However, after personal study and research, and after being taught by an inspired teacher who does have the power of interpretation, the gospel student must get the revelations of the Spirit himself. Only then will the full and clear meaning of the scriptures be unfolded. This principle is the basic rule of scriptural interpretation. "Knowing this first," Peter said, "that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2 Pet. 1:20-21.) It is only when the Holy Ghost reveals anew the same truth originally given in the scripture that its full and perfect meaning is known.
After the baptism of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, the Holy Ghost fell upon them in a miraculous manner. "We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation," the Prophet said. "Our minds being now enlightened, we began to have the scriptures laid open to our understandings, and the true meaning and intention of their more mysterious passages revealed unto us in a manner which we never could attain to previously, nor ever before had thought of." (Jos. Smith 2:73-74.) Truly the things of God are known only by the power of the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2.)
Brother McConkie continues;
In the world today there is an appalling ignorance of the true teachings of the scriptures. There has never been a time before when so many have known so little about Deity and or has there been a time when the opportunity to learn the basic principles of salvation has been available to so many. But instead, "darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people" (D. & C. 112:23); it is "as with the people, so with the priest" (Isa. 24:2); apostasy is universal, except among the Latter-day Saints.
But even in the true Church there are few sound scriptorians and theologians who have a comprehensive knowledge of revealed truth. So far this dispensation has not been noted for the diffusion of real gospel scholarship among the elders and saints generally. There are few modern experts on the gospel. Few have paid the price of intense study, of determined self-discipline, and of righteous living necessary to gain a broad knowledge of the truths of salvation. Nearly all members of the Church need to study the revealed word far more than they now do. Even a brief daily study period works miracles in adding to one's knowledge of the doctrines of the gospel. (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. Vol. 1 page 59)
Elder Orson Pratt commenting on revelations given 42 years earlier; Speaking about understanding;
Perhaps you may ask me why I dwell on this mysterious subject? I answer, why did the Lord dwell upon it forty-two years ago, if he did not want us, in some measure to understand it? Would he speak at random? Would he give a revelation without expecting that the people would ever try to understand it? If the Lord wished us to understand something, and condescended to reveal something, why should we, after forty-two years of experience, think that we are stepping over our bounds in trying to approximately comprehend what the Lord desired us to understand, in some measure, forty-two years ago? It is an old sectarian whim and notion, to suppose that we must not try to understand revelation. You know that when they come to something in the divine records which they do not understand, they will say—"Oh, the Lord never intended us to understand that, that is a mystery, we must not search into these things, they are mysteries." Just as though the Lord would reveal something that he never intended or wished the human family to understand. Saying nothing about the Deity, it would be an act of foolishness on the part of a man to attempt a revelation of something that he never intended his fellow-men to understand. The Lord is more consistent then man; and if he reveals anything, he surely intends that thing to be for the profit and edification of the pure in heart.
(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. 17: 326.)
So there it is, if the Lord or his Prophets have spoken on a truth, if their words are recorded, then we as members are free to search, study and understand everything they have spoken on!
We need to consider the following statement of Christ,
"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
Truth and light are synonyms of intelligence. The term salvation has been partially defined for us by Joseph Smith as " freedom from the power of our enemies," The Savior taught the Prophet and the Prophet taught us when Joseph said:
" No man can be saved in ignorance ." Man's salvation in this portion of life, mortality, then seems to be predicated on his degree of intelligence (even as it has been in the past, considering time spent in the pre-existence). This seems natural to the serious gospel student when we remember that our "knowledge" or lack of, is the only portion of mortality that passes with us into the next stage of existence, that place we commonly call "the spirit world" which actually, is right here with us. However, in that next stage of existence worldly knowledge is not included as knowledge of any "great worth" . For example, I have no idea what a lawyer or even a doctor might accomplish in the spirit world, if being a lawyer or doctor is the limit of an individuals knowledge. When you consider that as mortals we spend less then two hours of the Lords time here in mortality, perhaps, we just might make an attempt to understand the scriptures, and understand the Temple, which understanding is of "great worth" in the next stage of our life or existence.
Harold B. Lee
stated: "Our existence is eternal . He continues; We use words rather loosely when we speak of the "life before this, and this life, and the next life," as though we were a cat of nine lives, when as a matter of fact we only have one life. This life we speak of did not begin with mortal birth. This life does not end with mortal death. There is something that is not created or made. The scriptures called it "intelligence," which at a certain stage in the pre-existence was organized into a "spirit." After that spirit had grown to a certain stature it then was given the opportunity by an all-wise Father to come into another stage for its development. It was added upon, and after having lived its span and having attained to its purpose in mortality, another change took place. We go, not into another life, in fact, but into another stage of the same life . There is something which was not created or made, and something which does not die, and that something shall live on forever."
(Harold B. Lee, The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, page 74)
Joseph Smith
"Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection . And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." (Doctrine & Covenants, 130:18-19)
Please notice above that the prophet is talking about the resurrection, not the spirit world. And notice also that the word "world" above, is singular not plural, it refers to "The Kingdom of God in heaven," or, this earth, Celestialized. We remember that there are three (3) degrees of glory (intelligence) in the Celestial Kingdom
( The "glory" of God is intelligence, D & C 93:36 )
The Apostle Paul
counseled the wavering Timothy: (2 Timothy 3:14-17.)
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
"Wise unto salvation"
Just what does that word salvation mean? How are the scriptures "able" to make Timothy and the rest of us "wise unto salvation?" Above we read a partial definition of salvation, lets read it again, and finish the definition as stated by the prophet Joseph. Then perhaps we will see how each of us may become "wise unto salvation." And then understand, or be able to "work" out our own salvation, by increasing our knowledge of the scriptures. (Philippians 2:12)"
The prophet Joseph Smith taught: "Salvation is for a man to be saved from all his enemies; for until a man can triumph over death, he is not saved. A knowledge of the priesthood alone will do this." ( Teachings , p. 305; see also pp. 297, 301.)
Joseph Smith
also taught: "Salvation consists in the glory, authority, majesty, power and dominion which Jehovah possesses and in nothing else; and no being can possess it but himself or one like him " ( Lectures on Faith 7:9)
.
This is important to understand, lets repeat it;
"and no being can possess it (Salvation) but himself (Christ) or one like him!"
The prophet again
: " Salvation is the ultimate fruit of faith, for salvation consists of being- with and like Jesus Christ, who is the prototype of a saved being . Those who wish to be saved must thereby seek to become as Christ is . "When men begin to live by faith they begin to draw near to God; and when faith is perfected they are like him; and because he is saved they are saved also." (Lectures on Faith 7:8; see also 6:1 1; 7:9.) In this light the plan of salvation becomes "a system of faith—it begins with faith, and continues by faith; and every blessing which is obtained in relation to it is the effect of faith, whether it pertains to this life or that (stage of life) which is to come." (Lectures on Faith 7:17.)
There can be no faith without knowledge, you cannot have faith in God unless you first have knowledge of God. Then as you gain knowledge your faith increases until you have perfect knowledge! Lets use this key of "knowledge" to understand our salvation.
What does the Lord say about salvation?
(Doctrine and Covenants 6:13.)
If thou wilt do good, yea, and hold out faithful to the end, thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God, which is the greatest of all the gifts of God ; for there is no gift greater than the gift of salvation.
Now notice what the Lord "who cannot lie" says about eternal life:
(Doctrine and Covenants 14:7.) And, if you keep my commandments and endure to the end you shall have eternal life, which gift is the greatest of all the gifts of God .
The Lord in his plainness seems to be stating that the terms "salvation (save and saved) and eternal life have the same meaning. Lets see if the brethren, our prophets and apostles can help clarify the matter in our minds;
.
Elder Bruce R. McConkie has written: "We are ofttimes prone to create artificial distinctions, to say that salvation means one thing and exaltation another, to suppose that salvation means to be resurrected, but that exaltation or eternal life is something in addition thereto. It is true that there are some passages of scripture that use salvation in a special and limited sense in order to give an overall perspective ( from the first step to the last step) of the plan of salvation that we would not otherwise have. (2 Nephi 9:1-27; D&C 76:40-49; D&C 132:15-17.) These passages show the difference between general or universal salvation that consists of coming forth from the grave in immortality, and specific or individual salvation that consists of an inheritance in the celestial kingdom (last step of salvation).
.. Alma 11 40" Since it is the prophetic purpose to lead men to full salvation in the highest heaven of the celestial world, when they speak and write about salvation, almost without exception, they mean eternal life or exaltation. They use the terms salvation, exaltation, and eternal life as synonyms , as words that mean exactly the same thing without any difference, distinction, or variance whatever." ( Promised Messiah , p. 129.)
The above statement by Elder McConkie confirms the prior statements of our Lord.
If one takes a large bite (portion) out of the "salvation" apple, does the rest of the fruit remain apple, and, Are you able to consume the remainder? If you obtain a portion of salvation, are you able to partake of the rest? Lets see what the Lord proclaims. Remembering that the " glory" of God is intelligence, and that the Lord cannot lie!
(Doctrine and Covenants 88:25-31.)25 And again, verily I say unto you, the earth abideth the law of a celestial kingdom , for it filleth the measure of its creation, and transgresseth not the law—
26 Wherefore, it shall be sanctified; yea, notwithstanding it shall die, it shall be quickened again, and shall abide the power by which it is quickened, and the righteous shall inherit it (as they become righteous)
27 For notwithstanding they die, they also shall rise again, a spiritual body.
28 They who are of a celestial spirit shall receive the same body which was a natural body; even ye shall receive your bodies, and your glory shall be that glory by which your bodies are quickened.
29 Ye who are quickened by a portion of the celestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness .
30 And they who are quickened by a portion of the terrestrial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.
31 And also they who are quickened by a portion of the telestial glory shall then receive of the same, even a fullness.
Now, notice that the Lord here is speaking about what will happen when this earth becomes a Celestialized Earth with its "glories" as in; "The Three Degrees of Glory in the Celestial Kingdom" (fullness of the earth).
What are the names of those three degrees of glory? If we have been attentive, we should have discovered those names. Once you are in the Celestialized Earth and its kingdoms or glories, even perhaps, if by the skin of you teeth, are you are then able to go to the top of that kingdom? There is also mentioned in the scripture a "degree without glory or little intelligence" more about this later.
Lets read some words by John A. Widtsoe who provides insight to a mortal responsibility that was agreed to in the premortal world which is of great importance. He highlights a contractual agreement we made concerning the eternal welfare of all the sons and daughters of our Eternal Father:
John A Widtsoe
: In our pre-existent state, in the day of the great council, we made a certain agreement with the Almighty. The Lord proposed a plan, conceived by him. We accepted it . Since the plan is intended for all men (mankind), we become parties to the salvation of every person under the plan. We agreed, right then and there, to be not only saviors for ourselves, but measurably saviors for the whole human family . We went into a partnership with the Lord. The working out of the plan became then not merely the Father's work, and Savior's work, but also our work. The least of us, the humblest, is in partnership with the Almighty in achieving the purpose of the eternal plan of salvation (John A. Widtsoe, "The Worth of Souls," Utah Genealogical and Historical Magazine, October 1934, p. 189).
Because we now know that salvation, eternal life and exaltation are synonyms and have the same meaning, lets discuss just who will be saved, or receive eternal life and exaltation. First Paul:
(1st Timothy 4:10.) "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (first) of those that believe."
Howard W. Hunter
: "I know that God lives, that he is the supreme power of heaven and earth. I bear witness of the divinity of Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind. My knowledge of these truths moves me to allegiance to divine sovereignty, also to sustain the law of the land."
(Elder Howard W. Hunter, Conference Report, April 1968, page 66.)
Thomas S. Monson
: "His laws were not inscribed upon stone, but upon human hearts. I speak of the master teacher, even Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of all mankind."
(Elder Thomas S. Monson, Conference Report, April 1970 )
Marion D. Hanks
: "Jesus is his Son, the Savior of all mankind ; there is a plan, there is a Church. They have been restored to the earth, and the foundations of happy living are to be found in the principles and programs and inspiration of that Church."
(Elder Marion D. Hanks, May 4, 1960, BYU Speeches of the Year, 1960 6.)
John H. Groberg
: "O Zion! Dear Zion! home of the free-home of the pure in heart-home of all who have overcome the world through Jesus Christ, the Savior of all mankind . In thy temples we'll bend; all thy rights we'll defend; and our home shall be ever with thee-the healer of the penitent and the purifier of all who (as they repent) will come to His Zion and enter into His rest."
(John H. Groberg, The Fire of Faith, page 160.)
We need not be (more) redundant here, the statement "Savior of all mankind" appears many times throughout the words of the prophets. However Parley P. Pratt as quoted by B. H. Roberts made a very clear statement that concerns even the least of all men
Parley P Pratt
: "Thus perfected, the whole family will possess the material universe—that is, the earth and all the other planets and worlds, as an inheritance incorruptible, undefiled, and that fadeth not away. They will also continue to organize people and redeem and perfect other systems which are now in the womb of chaos, and thus go on increasing their several dominions, till the weakest child of God which now exists upon earth will possess more dominions, more property, more subjects and more power and glory than is possessed (presently) by Jesus Christ or by his Father; while at the same time Jesus Christ and his Father will have their dominions, kingdoms and subjects increased in proportion."—Parley P. Pratt, quoted by B. H. Roberts in The Mormon Doctrine of Deity, page 257.
(B. H. Roberts, Defense of the Faith and the Saints, 2 vol. 2: page 274)
Lets see what the Lord and Savior of all mankind himself says; Speaking in the 76th Section about those in this world,
(Doctrine and Covenants 76:41-44.) 41: That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world , and to bear the sins of the world , and to sanctify the world , and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;
42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him;
43 Who glorifies the Father, and saves all the works of his hands, except those sons of perdition who deny the Son after the Father has revealed him.
44 Wherefore, he saves all except them (sons of perdition,)
And then speaking specifically of those in the Telestial Kingdom (or glory) our Lord states;
(Doctrine and Covenants 76:81-88.)
81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.
82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.
83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.
84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.
85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.
86 These are they who receive not of his fullness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit through the ministration of the terrestrial;
87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.
88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation .
Also the Lord speaking through his prophet, specifically of the very wicked says this, the following several paragraphs speak of the Lords plan concerning the very wicked and later, even explaining how long the process might take for some;
(Doctrine and Covenants 138:58-59.)
58 The dead who repent (as they repent) will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God, (Temple)
59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation .
