Progression from Telestial Kingdom

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HappyCamper8
captain of 50
Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Silver wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:21 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:16 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 4:53 pm ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.
There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...
Sadly, you're right. If Elder Holland had really wanted to say that this earth in its present state is the ultimate destination for all those bound for The Telestial Kingdom, he would have done so with much more explanation. But wait, he wouldn't do that in the first place because it wouldn't be true. However, when he says we live in the telestial kingdom, pointedly with a little "t" and clarifying that we are not in the celestial (with a little "c") kingdom he was merely referring to the fallen nature of both us (and especially the hypocritical heretics among us) and the world upon which we live.
I'm curious though. Where the celestial kingdom (little c) is.

Rand
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2472

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Rand »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:27 pm
Silver wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:21 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:16 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 4:53 pm ps. Thanks everybody for answering questions. Not sure why but it seemed like before when asking questions, nobody would answer, but just attack me. Was trying to figure out what was going on.
There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...
Sadly, you're right. If Elder Holland had really wanted to say that this earth in its present state is the ultimate destination for all those bound for The Telestial Kingdom, he would have done so with much more explanation. But wait, he wouldn't do that in the first place because it wouldn't be true. However, when he says we live in the telestial kingdom, pointedly with a little "t" and clarifying that we are not in the celestial (with a little "c") kingdom he was merely referring to the fallen nature of both us (and especially the hypocritical heretics among us) and the world upon which we live.
I'm curious though. Where the celestial kingdom (little c) is.
Surrounding all of those living that level of the law...

HappyCamper8
captain of 50
Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Rand wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:49 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:27 pm
Silver wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:21 pm
Spaced_Out wrote: January 25th, 2018, 8:16 pm

There are very many anit-LDS on this site and the war that was started in heaven rages on in full fury on LDSFF. Progressions within kingdoms of glory is one of the key issues that distinguish many anti-LDS. As soon as a person is thought to be dishonest and not really seeking answers but stirring up trouble - it is full on attack and things go nuclear very quickly.

Many anti -LDS are sent here to overrun the forum with rubbish questions like progression between kingdoms of Glory There are so many scriptures and teachings from LDS prophets on the subject - there is no much to discuss...
Sadly, you're right. If Elder Holland had really wanted to say that this earth in its present state is the ultimate destination for all those bound for The Telestial Kingdom, he would have done so with much more explanation. But wait, he wouldn't do that in the first place because it wouldn't be true. However, when he says we live in the telestial kingdom, pointedly with a little "t" and clarifying that we are not in the celestial (with a little "c") kingdom he was merely referring to the fallen nature of both us (and especially the hypocritical heretics among us) and the world upon which we live.
I'm curious though. Where the celestial kingdom (little c) is.
Surrounding all of those living that level of the law...
Thanks! I believe that as well. Goes along with what spaced_out was saying earlier. Not sure why he was doing the little c and little t thing because as far as I can see, the brethren always refer to it with little c and little t.

Could be some exceptions, but the ones I have found are titles to talks or lessons so capitalized. But in the actual talks as far as I can see they always use lower case.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

I found the at least part of the source of the trash that HappyCamper8 is posting here. There is much more than I have copy/pasted below. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated and deservedly so. HappyCamper8 and his pals like alaris, if they really are members of the Church, need to repent or ask for excommunication. Now I must go take a shower after reading so much heresy on Snuffer's blog.

http://denversnuffer.com/2010/07/1-nephi-14-6/

1 Nephi 14: 6

“Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.”
Interestingly, rather than shouting out in rejoicing that all who repent will escape punishment, the angel instead pronounces a “wo” upon the gentiles. It is almost as if the future of the gentile conduct inspires nothing but pessimism for the angel. It inspires another warning and condemnation for the gentiles who, having received the Book of Mormon and other sacred writings, are then fully responsible to repent.
Notice that the relationship is between the “Lamb of God” and the gentiles. It is not between the gentiles and “leaders” or “prophets” or “administrators” or “general authorities” or even messengers. It is between the gentiles and “the Lamb of God.”

Why that specific a relationship? Why is it exclusively between the individual and Christ?

Read again the description of the Telestial folk who return “worlds without end” to their condemnation: “And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” (D&C 76: 98-101.)

From what you’ve now learned can you see how one might follow even a true messenger but fail to gain “the testimony of Jesus?”


Can you now understand why, although you have followed messengers, you may have not in fact received the “everlasting covenant?”


The Temple is a type and shadow. It is a symbol of the real thing, but it is not the real thing. The “everlasting covenant” is taught there. But to gain it you must receive it through “the testimony of Jesus.” Is this “testimony of Jesus” yours? Of is it rather Jesus testifying to you? If it is He testifying to you, then what must His testimony be?

In light of that does it mean then to “harden your hearts against the Lamb of God?” As you answer that, keep in mind His formula in D&C 93: 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” Here Christ is but reiterating the message of the Book of Mormon.

Then how do you repent? I was asked about idolatry among the Saints. Anything that separates you from the Lamb of God is an idol. Cast it aside and come to Him. Why we have idols between us and the Lord is as different as one person is from another. Almost without exception, it comes as a result of a false tradition handed down. Your false traditions are based on your life’s experiences while another’s false traditions are based on theirs. No matter what they are or how they were acquired, whatever separates Christ from you must be set aside. Come to HIM. Not to me or any other. Only He can save you.

No wonder that after making great promises to the gentiles, if they will but repent, the angel cries out “wo be unto the Gentiles!” They won’t receive: 1) the Gospel, neither 2) the testimony of Jesus, neither 3) the prophets sent to warn them and the message given to them, neither 4) the everlasting covenant offered to them.

Will you?

July 7, 2010


6 thoughts on “1 Nephi 14: 6”
ML1321
July 7, 2010 at 8:45 AM
Joseph said the following about the telestial kingdom:

“And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
“And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.”

Denver, it appears you are teaching multiple mortal probations
(an idea seemingly believed by Eliza R. Snow and Heber C. Kimball, two of the prophet’s closest friends). How are verses 89 & 90 quoted above reconciled with that doctrine? If we are, here and now, experiencing a telestial kingdom and glory how is it that “no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it?” And is this glory we now enjoy the “glory” spoken of which “surpasses all understanding?”

Thank you for all of your insight!
Matt

Denver Snuffer
July 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I’d say the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses your current understanding; and will become known only as God reveals it.

HappyCamper8
captain of 50
Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Silver wrote: January 25th, 2018, 10:04 pm I found the at least part of the source of the trash that HappyCamper8 is posting here. There is much more than I have copy/pasted below. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated and deservedly so. HappyCamper8 and his pals like alaris, if they really are members of the Church, need to repent or ask for excommunication. Now I must go take a shower after reading so much heresy on Snuffer's blog.

http://denversnuffer.com/2010/07/1-nephi-14-6/

1 Nephi 14: 6

“Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.”
Interestingly, rather than shouting out in rejoicing that all who repent will escape punishment, the angel instead pronounces a “wo” upon the gentiles. It is almost as if the future of the gentile conduct inspires nothing but pessimism for the angel. It inspires another warning and condemnation for the gentiles who, having received the Book of Mormon and other sacred writings, are then fully responsible to repent.
Notice that the relationship is between the “Lamb of God” and the gentiles. It is not between the gentiles and “leaders” or “prophets” or “administrators” or “general authorities” or even messengers. It is between the gentiles and “the Lamb of God.”

Why that specific a relationship? Why is it exclusively between the individual and Christ?

Read again the description of the Telestial folk who return “worlds without end” to their condemnation: “And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” (D&C 76: 98-101.)

From what you’ve now learned can you see how one might follow even a true messenger but fail to gain “the testimony of Jesus?”


Can you now understand why, although you have followed messengers, you may have not in fact received the “everlasting covenant?”


The Temple is a type and shadow. It is a symbol of the real thing, but it is not the real thing. The “everlasting covenant” is taught there. But to gain it you must receive it through “the testimony of Jesus.” Is this “testimony of Jesus” yours? Of is it rather Jesus testifying to you? If it is He testifying to you, then what must His testimony be?

In light of that does it mean then to “harden your hearts against the Lamb of God?” As you answer that, keep in mind His formula in D&C 93: 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” Here Christ is but reiterating the message of the Book of Mormon.

Then how do you repent? I was asked about idolatry among the Saints. Anything that separates you from the Lamb of God is an idol. Cast it aside and come to Him. Why we have idols between us and the Lord is as different as one person is from another. Almost without exception, it comes as a result of a false tradition handed down. Your false traditions are based on your life’s experiences while another’s false traditions are based on theirs. No matter what they are or how they were acquired, whatever separates Christ from you must be set aside. Come to HIM. Not to me or any other. Only He can save you.

No wonder that after making great promises to the gentiles, if they will but repent, the angel cries out “wo be unto the Gentiles!” They won’t receive: 1) the Gospel, neither 2) the testimony of Jesus, neither 3) the prophets sent to warn them and the message given to them, neither 4) the everlasting covenant offered to them.

Will you?

July 7, 2010


6 thoughts on “1 Nephi 14: 6”
ML1321
July 7, 2010 at 8:45 AM
Joseph said the following about the telestial kingdom:

“And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
“And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.”

Denver, it appears you are teaching multiple mortal probations
(an idea seemingly believed by Eliza R. Snow and Heber C. Kimball, two of the prophet’s closest friends). How are verses 89 & 90 quoted above reconciled with that doctrine? If we are, here and now, experiencing a telestial kingdom and glory how is it that “no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it?” And is this glory we now enjoy the “glory” spoken of which “surpasses all understanding?”

Thank you for all of your insight!
Matt

Denver Snuffer
July 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I’d say the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses your current understanding; and will become known only as God reveals it.
You are completely obsessed with MMP. Project much? You and the rest of your Julie Rowe followers need to stop wresting the words of the brethren. It's obvious what you are doing. You take a 6 word sentence by one of the brethren and wrest his words, almost each of them. Why?! To set up your MMP ideas in the long run. You and your Rowe followers are doing this to be able to wrest the words of Uchtdorf about 1 mortal adventure.

I choose to follow the words of the brethren. Go back to the other thread you are so obsessed with. Stop polluting the minds of others. Why do you keep posting the words of snuffer? You keep spreading that word which surprises me. You Julie Rowe followers must actually be with snuffer as well.

Silver
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5247

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 5:50 am
Silver wrote: January 25th, 2018, 10:04 pm I found the at least part of the source of the trash that HappyCamper8 is posting here. There is much more than I have copy/pasted below. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated and deservedly so. HappyCamper8 and his pals like alaris, if they really are members of the Church, need to repent or ask for excommunication. Now I must go take a shower after reading so much heresy on Snuffer's blog.

http://denversnuffer.com/2010/07/1-nephi-14-6/

1 Nephi 14: 6

“Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.”
Interestingly, rather than shouting out in rejoicing that all who repent will escape punishment, the angel instead pronounces a “wo” upon the gentiles. It is almost as if the future of the gentile conduct inspires nothing but pessimism for the angel. It inspires another warning and condemnation for the gentiles who, having received the Book of Mormon and other sacred writings, are then fully responsible to repent.
Notice that the relationship is between the “Lamb of God” and the gentiles. It is not between the gentiles and “leaders” or “prophets” or “administrators” or “general authorities” or even messengers. It is between the gentiles and “the Lamb of God.”

Why that specific a relationship? Why is it exclusively between the individual and Christ?

Read again the description of the Telestial folk who return “worlds without end” to their condemnation: “And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” (D&C 76: 98-101.)

From what you’ve now learned can you see how one might follow even a true messenger but fail to gain “the testimony of Jesus?”


Can you now understand why, although you have followed messengers, you may have not in fact received the “everlasting covenant?”


The Temple is a type and shadow. It is a symbol of the real thing, but it is not the real thing. The “everlasting covenant” is taught there. But to gain it you must receive it through “the testimony of Jesus.” Is this “testimony of Jesus” yours? Of is it rather Jesus testifying to you? If it is He testifying to you, then what must His testimony be?

In light of that does it mean then to “harden your hearts against the Lamb of God?” As you answer that, keep in mind His formula in D&C 93: 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” Here Christ is but reiterating the message of the Book of Mormon.

Then how do you repent? I was asked about idolatry among the Saints. Anything that separates you from the Lamb of God is an idol. Cast it aside and come to Him. Why we have idols between us and the Lord is as different as one person is from another. Almost without exception, it comes as a result of a false tradition handed down. Your false traditions are based on your life’s experiences while another’s false traditions are based on theirs. No matter what they are or how they were acquired, whatever separates Christ from you must be set aside. Come to HIM. Not to me or any other. Only He can save you.

No wonder that after making great promises to the gentiles, if they will but repent, the angel cries out “wo be unto the Gentiles!” They won’t receive: 1) the Gospel, neither 2) the testimony of Jesus, neither 3) the prophets sent to warn them and the message given to them, neither 4) the everlasting covenant offered to them.

Will you?

July 7, 2010


6 thoughts on “1 Nephi 14: 6”
ML1321
July 7, 2010 at 8:45 AM
Joseph said the following about the telestial kingdom:

“And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
“And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.”

Denver, it appears you are teaching multiple mortal probations
(an idea seemingly believed by Eliza R. Snow and Heber C. Kimball, two of the prophet’s closest friends). How are verses 89 & 90 quoted above reconciled with that doctrine? If we are, here and now, experiencing a telestial kingdom and glory how is it that “no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it?” And is this glory we now enjoy the “glory” spoken of which “surpasses all understanding?”

Thank you for all of your insight!
Matt

Denver Snuffer
July 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I’d say the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses your current understanding; and will become known only as God reveals it.
You are completely obsessed with MMP. Project much? You and the rest of your Julie Rowe followers need to stop wresting the words of the brethren. It's obvious what you are doing. You take a 6 word sentence by one of the brethren and wrest his words, almost each of them. Why?! To set up your MMP ideas in the long run. You and your Rowe followers are doing this to be able to wrest the words of Uchtdorf about 1 mortal adventure.

I choose to follow the words of the brethren. Go back to the other thread you are so obsessed with. Stop polluting the minds of others. Why do you keep posting the words of snuffer? You keep spreading that word which surprises me. You Julie Rowe followers must actually be with snuffer as well.
Your comments only make you look silly. Those who have read the Julie Rowe threads know that I have written against her as well. And just like you, I'll post where I please.

Now that we've established that the excommunicated and you and alaris are MMP supporters, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren? You can't possibly follow the excommunicated Snuffer and the brethren.

User avatar
gclayjr
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2727
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by gclayjr »

happycamper8,

I found the quote
To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c. As President Russell M. Nelson has taught, here in mortality perfection is still “pending.”5
I think he was not perfect in his phrasing It would be more correct to say "We are in a telestial kingdom"

There are a couple of direct indicators of this.

1) This was not included in the Deseret News article about this speech, which would have been included had it been a key part of the speech.

2) He referenced Russel M Nelson which coincidentally,so did I, who spoke more clearly about the topic. which makes it clear that this is a Telestial sphere or location not THE telestial kingdom as in the final Kingdom, one may go to after judgment.


I don't know you. There are many on this board who are proponents one heresy or another who dangle out there some obscure quote, from a prophet or GA, without context, in order to "Trap" people into believing that that prophet or GA was preaching or implying this heresy or that one. I hope that is not what you are doing here. If so, I pity you and wonder if you have anything better to do with you time than to surf all the GA talks looking for an errant definite article instead of an indefinite article to support a theory.

If not, then I hope that I was able to clear up your misunderstanding.

Regards,

George Clay

HappyCamper8
captain of 50
Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 5:59 am
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 5:50 am
Silver wrote: January 25th, 2018, 10:04 pm I found the at least part of the source of the trash that HappyCamper8 is posting here. There is much more than I have copy/pasted below. Denver Snuffer was excommunicated and deservedly so. HappyCamper8 and his pals like alaris, if they really are members of the Church, need to repent or ask for excommunication. Now I must go take a shower after reading so much heresy on Snuffer's blog.

http://denversnuffer.com/2010/07/1-nephi-14-6/

1 Nephi 14: 6

“Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.”
Interestingly, rather than shouting out in rejoicing that all who repent will escape punishment, the angel instead pronounces a “wo” upon the gentiles. It is almost as if the future of the gentile conduct inspires nothing but pessimism for the angel. It inspires another warning and condemnation for the gentiles who, having received the Book of Mormon and other sacred writings, are then fully responsible to repent.
Notice that the relationship is between the “Lamb of God” and the gentiles. It is not between the gentiles and “leaders” or “prophets” or “administrators” or “general authorities” or even messengers. It is between the gentiles and “the Lamb of God.”

Why that specific a relationship? Why is it exclusively between the individual and Christ?

Read again the description of the Telestial folk who return “worlds without end” to their condemnation: “And the glory of the telestial is one, even as the glory of the stars is one; for as one star differs from another star in glory, even so differs one from another in glory in the telestial world; For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant.” (D&C 76: 98-101.)

From what you’ve now learned can you see how one might follow even a true messenger but fail to gain “the testimony of Jesus?”


Can you now understand why, although you have followed messengers, you may have not in fact received the “everlasting covenant?”


The Temple is a type and shadow. It is a symbol of the real thing, but it is not the real thing. The “everlasting covenant” is taught there. But to gain it you must receive it through “the testimony of Jesus.” Is this “testimony of Jesus” yours? Of is it rather Jesus testifying to you? If it is He testifying to you, then what must His testimony be?

In light of that does it mean then to “harden your hearts against the Lamb of God?” As you answer that, keep in mind His formula in D&C 93: 1: “Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” Here Christ is but reiterating the message of the Book of Mormon.

Then how do you repent? I was asked about idolatry among the Saints. Anything that separates you from the Lamb of God is an idol. Cast it aside and come to Him. Why we have idols between us and the Lord is as different as one person is from another. Almost without exception, it comes as a result of a false tradition handed down. Your false traditions are based on your life’s experiences while another’s false traditions are based on theirs. No matter what they are or how they were acquired, whatever separates Christ from you must be set aside. Come to HIM. Not to me or any other. Only He can save you.

No wonder that after making great promises to the gentiles, if they will but repent, the angel cries out “wo be unto the Gentiles!” They won’t receive: 1) the Gospel, neither 2) the testimony of Jesus, neither 3) the prophets sent to warn them and the message given to them, neither 4) the everlasting covenant offered to them.

Will you?

July 7, 2010


6 thoughts on “1 Nephi 14: 6”
ML1321
July 7, 2010 at 8:45 AM
Joseph said the following about the telestial kingdom:

“And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
“And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.”

Denver, it appears you are teaching multiple mortal probations
(an idea seemingly believed by Eliza R. Snow and Heber C. Kimball, two of the prophet’s closest friends). How are verses 89 & 90 quoted above reconciled with that doctrine? If we are, here and now, experiencing a telestial kingdom and glory how is it that “no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it?” And is this glory we now enjoy the “glory” spoken of which “surpasses all understanding?”

Thank you for all of your insight!
Matt

Denver Snuffer
July 7, 2010 at 10:22 AM
I’d say the glory of the telestial kingdom surpasses your current understanding; and will become known only as God reveals it.
You are completely obsessed with MMP. Project much? You and the rest of your Julie Rowe followers need to stop wresting the words of the brethren. It's obvious what you are doing. You take a 6 word sentence by one of the brethren and wrest his words, almost each of them. Why?! To set up your MMP ideas in the long run. You and your Rowe followers are doing this to be able to wrest the words of Uchtdorf about 1 mortal adventure.

I choose to follow the words of the brethren. Go back to the other thread you are so obsessed with. Stop polluting the minds of others. Why do you keep posting the words of snuffer? You keep spreading that word which surprises me. You Julie Rowe followers must actually be with snuffer as well.
Your comments only make you look silly. Those who have read the Julie Rowe threads know that I have written against her as well. And just like you, I'll post where I please.

Now that we've established that the excommunicated and you and alaris are MMP supporters, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren? You can't possibly follow the excommunicated Snuffer and the brethren.
Your comments only make you look silly. I have invited you and any others who would like, to go back and read my comments.
Now that we have established you are obsessed with MMP and Snuffer and continually spread his word and also claiming to rid yourself of your evil spirit by NOT using the atonement but showering, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren?
Use the atonement to become clean. Why do you study the words of Snuffer? You have admitted yourself you do. You also continually spread his words and try to link all topics to MMP.
Follow the prophet. Don't go astray. I'm assuming you are no longer a member of the LDS faith. If you ever were, I invite you to come back. Leave your obsession with snuffer and MMP. Don't wrest the words of the brethren. This will only lead you further into darkness.

HappyCamper8
captain of 50
Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

gclayjr wrote: January 26th, 2018, 6:49 am happycamper8,

I found the quote
To put this issue in context, may I remind all of us that we live in a fallen world and for now we are a fallen people. We are in the telestial kingdom; that is spelled with a t, not a c. As President Russell M. Nelson has taught, here in mortality perfection is still “pending.”5
I think he was not perfect in his phrasing It would be more correct to say "We are in a telestial kingdom"

There are a couple of direct indicators of this.

1) This was not included in the Deseret News article about this speech, which would have been included had it been a key part of the speech.

2) He referenced Russel M Nelson which coincidentally,so did I, who spoke more clearly about the topic. which makes it clear that this is a Telestial sphere or location not THE telestial kingdom as in the final Kingdom, one may go to after judgment.


I don't know you. There are many on this board who are proponents one heresy or another who dangle out there some obscure quote, from a prophet or GA, without context, in order to "Trap" people into believing that that prophet or GA was preaching or implying this heresy or that one. I hope that is not what you are doing here. If so, I pity you and wonder if you have anything better to do with you time than to surf all the GA talks looking for an errant definite article instead of an indefinite article to support a theory.

If not, then I hope that I was able to clear up your misunderstanding.

Regards,

George Clay
Thank you for your clarification. You are saying he didn't mean to say "the" but "a".

I don't think it's a good idea or practice to reference news articles about a general conference talk. They leave parts out and add their own commentary and can help muddy the water.

Please don't accuse me of trying to trap people. It's amazing. A person comes on this site and if they are not part of the 10 or so people who regularly post, it's full on attack mode. I hope this behavior doesn't happen in Priesthood/Relief Society and Sunday School all over the world. I have seen it personally in Priesthood meeting where a certain person was continuously attacked until he stopped asking questions. Not good.

Btw, I'm from Pennsylvania also. (Not currently living there).

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by iWriteStuff »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:09 am Your comments only make you look silly. I have invited you and any others who would like, to go back and read my comments.
Now that we have established you are obsessed with MMP and Snuffer and continually spread his word and also claiming to rid yourself of your evil spirit by NOT using the atonement but showering, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren?
Use the atonement to become clean. Why do you study the words of Snuffer? You have admitted yourself you do. You also continually spread his words and try to link all topics to MMP.
Follow the prophet. Don't go astray. I'm assuming you are no longer a member of the LDS faith. If you ever were, I invite you to come back. Leave your obsession with snuffer and MMP. Don't wrest the words of the brethren. This will only lead you further into darkness.
Perhaps you could explain how your statement is different than Snuffer's rather than wresting the words of the brethren and fixating on grammatical nuances. I haven't seen anything yet to imply that Elder Holland believes this is the Telestial Kingdom of post-resurrection fame. Nor have I seen anything to make me believe the false doctrine of post-resurrection progression between kingdoms. Instead, I read this:
Alma 34:31-35
31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
I invite you to show me scriptures supporting the notion that after we have procrastinated our repentance, been fully judged, and allotted a lesser kingdom of glory that we can start repenting after this life. My understanding is that the weight of scriptures advocates repentance now, as afterwards is everlastingly too late. This is especially true if we have been given the word of God in its plainness. There are no do-overs.

HappyCamper8
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:29 am
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:09 am Your comments only make you look silly. I have invited you and any others who would like, to go back and read my comments.
Now that we have established you are obsessed with MMP and Snuffer and continually spread his word and also claiming to rid yourself of your evil spirit by NOT using the atonement but showering, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren?
Use the atonement to become clean. Why do you study the words of Snuffer? You have admitted yourself you do. You also continually spread his words and try to link all topics to MMP.
Follow the prophet. Don't go astray. I'm assuming you are no longer a member of the LDS faith. If you ever were, I invite you to come back. Leave your obsession with snuffer and MMP. Don't wrest the words of the brethren. This will only lead you further into darkness.
Perhaps you could explain how your statement is different than Snuffer's rather than wresting the words of the brethren and fixating on grammatical nuances. I haven't seen anything yet to imply that Elder Holland believes this is the Telestial Kingdom of post-resurrection fame. Nor have I seen anything to make me believe the false doctrine of post-resurrection progression between kingdoms. Instead, I read this:
Alma 34:31-35
31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
I invite you to show me scriptures supporting the notion that after we have procrastinated our repentance, been fully judged, and allotted a lesser kingdom of glory that we can start repenting after this life. My understanding is that the weight of scriptures advocates repentance now, as afterwards is everlastingly too late. This is especially true if we have been given the word of God in its plainness. There are no do-overs.
Which statement of mine are you asking me to explain?
I invite you to show me my statement where I'm preaching do-overs?
You do realize I'm asking questions, correct? I'm not preaching anything.
You seem to believe I'm preaching something.
Please show me what I'm preaching.
Again. I'm asking questions.
People have such paranoia on this forum. Are you also trying to relate this to MMP? What are you trying to imply?

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by iWriteStuff »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:34 am
Which statement of mine are you asking me to explain?
I invite you to show me my statement where I'm preaching do-overs?
You do realize I'm asking questions, correct? I'm not preaching anything.
You seem to believe I'm preaching something.
Please show me what I'm preaching.
Again. I'm asking questions.
People have such paranoia on this forum. Are you also trying to relate this to MMP? What are you trying to imply?
So rather than answer a question you'd prefer to ask more. Alright, I'll take the bait this once.

Your title says "Progression from Telestial Kingdom". That is the concept being discussed. Show me using the scriptures where it is possible to progress from the Telestial Kingdom post-judgment, post-resurrection, to a higher kingdom of glory. It's your premise. You began this thread by saying:
If we know we can progress from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial or Celestial...
I'm asking you to prove your premise. Otherwise the question that follows is irrelevant. As it is, I find no scriptural evidence for your premise.

HappyCamper8
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:29 am
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:09 am Your comments only make you look silly. I have invited you and any others who would like, to go back and read my comments.
Now that we have established you are obsessed with MMP and Snuffer and continually spread his word and also claiming to rid yourself of your evil spirit by NOT using the atonement but showering, will you take back your lie that you follow the words of the brethren?
Use the atonement to become clean. Why do you study the words of Snuffer? You have admitted yourself you do. You also continually spread his words and try to link all topics to MMP.
Follow the prophet. Don't go astray. I'm assuming you are no longer a member of the LDS faith. If you ever were, I invite you to come back. Leave your obsession with snuffer and MMP. Don't wrest the words of the brethren. This will only lead you further into darkness.
Perhaps you could explain how your statement is different than Snuffer's rather than wresting the words of the brethren and fixating on grammatical nuances. I haven't seen anything yet to imply that Elder Holland believes this is the Telestial Kingdom of post-resurrection fame. Nor have I seen anything to make me believe the false doctrine of post-resurrection progression between kingdoms. Instead, I read this:
Alma 34:31-35
31 Yea, I would that ye would come forth and harden not your hearts any longer; for behold, now is the time and the day of your salvation; and therefore, if ye will repent and harden not your hearts, immediately shall the great plan of redemption be brought about unto you.
32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.
33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.
34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.
35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.
I invite you to show me scriptures supporting the notion that after we have procrastinated our repentance, been fully judged, and allotted a lesser kingdom of glory that we can start repenting after this life. My understanding is that the weight of scriptures advocates repentance now, as afterwards is everlastingly too late. This is especially true if we have been given the word of God in its plainness. There are no do-overs.
Btw, so far in my question asking, spaced_out answers seem to be hitting closest to satisfying my curiosity on this subject. What he has said so far seems to jive much more than what others have been saying while change the wording of what Holland said to fit a preconceived idea.

His answers don't have to involve MMP or snuffer or anything else others are obsessed with.

Silver
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

For the first time in my life I go to Snuffer's blog yesterday and do a casual search for telestial and, lo and behold, I find the pernicious MMP heresy in one of the same articles. The record speaks for itself.

Denver, you better repent and come back the Savior's church.

Hopefully, the many converts he deceived will follow him back.

HappyCamper8
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:39 am
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:34 am
Which statement of mine are you asking me to explain?
I invite you to show me my statement where I'm preaching do-overs?
You do realize I'm asking questions, correct? I'm not preaching anything.
You seem to believe I'm preaching something.
Please show me what I'm preaching.
Again. I'm asking questions.
People have such paranoia on this forum. Are you also trying to relate this to MMP? What are you trying to imply?
So rather than answer a question you'd prefer to ask more. Alright, I'll take the bait this once.

Your title says "Progression from Telestial Kingdom". That is the concept being discussed. Show me using the scriptures where it is possible to progress from the Telestial Kingdom post-judgment, post-resurrection, to a higher kingdom of glory. It's your premise. You began this thread by saying:
If we know we can progress from the Telestial Kingdom to the Terrestrial or Celestial...
I'm asking you to prove your premise. Otherwise the question that follows is irrelevant. As it is, I find no scriptural evidence for your premise.
What bait?!
Look at my question again. I'm asking if we can progress from the telestial kingdom to terrestrial, which WILL happen at the millenium. The earth will move from telestial kingdom to terrestrial kingdom. Will it not? Spaced_out's answers have helped give me something to ponder on how it all fits together. Like I said in the post or so above yours.
In those answers, he didn't have to start saying I'm baiting people or trying to preach MMP. Just simply stated what he believed etc...

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:46 am For the first time in my life I go to Snuffer's blog yesterday and do a casual search for telestial and, lo and behold, I find the pernicious MMP heresy in one of the same articles. The record speaks for itself.

Denver, you better repent and come back the Savior's church.

Hopefully, the many converts he deceived will follow him back.
Make up your mind Julie. Are you with or against Denver?
Why did you automatically go to Denver's blog to search for answers? Search the scriptures and words of the brethren. False prophets will lead to darkness and apostasy.

Silver
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:50 am
Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:46 am For the first time in my life I go to Snuffer's blog yesterday and do a casual search for telestial and, lo and behold, I find the pernicious MMP heresy in one of the same articles. The record speaks for itself.

Denver, you better repent and come back the Savior's church.

Hopefully, the many converts he deceived will follow him back.
Make up your mind Julie. Are you with or against Denver?
Why did you automatically go to Denver's blog to search for answers? Search the scriptures and words of the brethren. False prophets will lead to darkness and apostasy.
What happened to that guy in the other heretical thread that was apologizing and wishing me well? You apostates are such an easy read.

HappyCamper8
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Posts: 98

Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 8:00 am
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:50 am
Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:46 am For the first time in my life I go to Snuffer's blog yesterday and do a casual search for telestial and, lo and behold, I find the pernicious MMP heresy in one of the same articles. The record speaks for itself.

Denver, you better repent and come back the Savior's church.

Hopefully, the many converts he deceived will follow him back.
Make up your mind Julie. Are you with or against Denver?
Why did you automatically go to Denver's blog to search for answers? Search the scriptures and words of the brethren. False prophets will lead to darkness and apostasy.
What happened to that guy in the other heretical thread that was apologizing and wishing me well? You apostates are such an easy read.
You're correct. I'm sorry. Will you forgive me?

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by iWriteStuff »

HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:48 am What bait?!
Look at my question again. I'm asking if we can progress from the telestial kingdom to terrestrial, which WILL happen at the millenium. The earth will move from telestial kingdom to terrestrial kingdom. Will it not? Spaced_out's answers have helped give me something to ponder on how it all fits together. Like I said in the post or so above yours.
In those answers, he didn't have to start saying I'm baiting people or trying to preach MMP. Just simply stated what he believed etc...
I call it baiting when someone refuses to answer a question and instead asks another. You've done this to me twice now.

The earth, much like the mortals that inhabit it, will experience the same types of progress during its "mortality" as we will. It is a fallen world, as we are a fallen people. It was baptized in the flood, as we are baptized. It will be cleansed by fire, much like we are baptized by fire with the reception of the Holy Ghost. And it will be exalted after the final judgment into a Celestialized state, much like we will if we stay true and faithful to our covenants in this mortal probation (see D&C 77:1 & 12).

As it is, I think it's a false equivalency to state that the progression of the earth is a perfect parallel to our own. After it is exalted, it has achieved its ultimate state (as far as the scriptures tell us) and becomes Christ's (D&C 130:9). Man, however, upon receiving a celestial glory, goes on to become more and more like God and creates future dominions of his own, with eternally expanding families. This is what inheriting the celestial glory is about. Inheriting a lesser kingdom is to receive only partial glory and an end of increase. How do we know this?
D&C 131:1-4

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
That's how I understand it, at least. If you can show me something in the scriptures that says otherwise, I'm open to hearing you out.

HappyCamper8
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 26th, 2018, 8:09 am
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 26th, 2018, 7:48 am What bait?!
Look at my question again. I'm asking if we can progress from the telestial kingdom to terrestrial, which WILL happen at the millenium. The earth will move from telestial kingdom to terrestrial kingdom. Will it not? Spaced_out's answers have helped give me something to ponder on how it all fits together. Like I said in the post or so above yours.
In those answers, he didn't have to start saying I'm baiting people or trying to preach MMP. Just simply stated what he believed etc...
I call it baiting when someone refuses to answer a question and instead asks another. You've done this to me twice now.

The earth, much like the mortals that inhabit it, will experience the same types of progress during its "mortality" as we will. It is a fallen world, as we are a fallen people. It was baptized in the flood, as we are baptized. It will be cleansed by fire, much like we are baptized by fire with the reception of the Holy Ghost. And it will be exalted after the final judgment into a Celestialized state, much like we will if we stay true and faithful to our covenants in this mortal probation (see D&C 77:1 & 12).

As it is, I think it's a false equivalency to state that the progression of the earth is a perfect parallel to our own. After it is exalted, it has achieved its ultimate state (as far as the scriptures tell us) and becomes Christ's (D&C 130:9). Man, however, upon receiving a celestial glory, goes on to become more and more like God and creates future dominions of his own, with eternally expanding families. This is what inheriting the celestial glory is about. Inheriting a lesser kingdom is to receive only partial glory and an end of increase. How do we know this?
D&C 131:1-4

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;
2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage];
3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.
4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.
That's how I understand it, at least. If you can show me something in the scriptures that says otherwise, I'm open to hearing you out.
Thanks.
Again. I'm not trying to preach a doctrine or anything.
It sounds very much like what you are saying is close to what spaced_out was answering. We very much may be saying the same things with different words.
I was trying to figure out how what Holland said fits into it, without changing his words and saying "he really meant ..." or "he misspoke" or "he is wrong"
Like somebody before (don't remember who) asked me a bunch of questions about what I think it all means and what it would infer. My answer was, I don't know the answer to those questions.
I really am asking questions, asking for responses so I can use them to ponder about. Some have responded that they think he didn't really mean that. That is something I can ponder. Some have responded that it's a kingdom, but no glory yet. I can ponder about that. Some have responded by attacking me saying I follow some dude named Snuffer. There really isn't anything to ponder about that. Don't really know anything about him, and don't really care.
It bothers me that many assume there is a hidden agenda and baiting and whatever. There must have been some serious crap go down on this forum in the past.
Thanks again for your comments.

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inho
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by inho »

HappyCamper8,
I start with apologizing that I ask the same questions again. I just try to understand where you are coming for.

So far, it seems that you are only referring to Elder Holland's talk. Was this where you got the idea that we are currently living in the telestial kingdom? Or did you believe that already earlier? How do you square that belief with the D&C 76? For me that section is much more important source than a short paragraph in a talk by an apostle–especially since the point of that paragraph was not to discuss the different kingdoms, but to make a point about perfectionism.

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gclayjr
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by gclayjr »

HappyCamper8,
Again. I'm not trying to preach a doctrine or anything.
It sounds very much like what you are saying is close to what spaced_out was answering. We very much may be saying the same things with different words.
I was trying to figure out how what Holland said fits into it, without changing his words and saying "he really meant ..." or "he misspoke" or "he is wrong"
Apparently, you haven't been on this board much. I have been.. There is a long history here of people who are advocates of one of the LDS heretical philosophies that so pepper the Wasatch front, who join this board, and then start a thread with what appears to be an innocent question. Then introduce seemingly innocent or unrelated quotes or data, then try to evangelize that that one well known heresy or another is just a mystery that the GAs know, but have not chosen to reveal to us.

They also tend to start threads when there are similar other threads about their favorite heresy going on as other discussions. Now while you may not using this topic to "back into" some form of path to evangelizing post judgment progression of souls from a telestial world to a Celestial world, it does smell like it.

So please don't blame Silver, IWritestuff and others for harboring such suspicions, It has happen so often before.

While I will take you at your word that you are not trying to sneak in an advocacy for this heresy, and are just asking questions, I have to confess, that because of the similarity of your posts to so many other such advocates, I do still have my doubts.

by the way I live in Southern Chester county (SE corner of PA) where are you from?

Regards,

George Clay

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ajax
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

Statements from past LDS leaders on the topic.
http://probationarystate.blogspot.com/2 ... gdoms.html

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inho
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by inho »

ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 11:08 am Statements from past LDS leaders on the topic.
http://probationarystate.blogspot.com/2 ... gdoms.html
That is a nice list of quotes both for and against the idea of progression between the kingdoms.

I glanced through it, but I couldn't find any arguments there for (or against) the idea that this mortal world where we currently live is the telestial kingdom.

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ajax
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

Robin Hood wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:01 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 1:51 pm
Second, this isn't just some telestial world. We live in the telestial kingdom.
I agree.
There is a part in the temple ceremony where it is announced that the lone and dreary world that we are now in is the telestial kingdom.
I would just like to know what we did to wind up here.
"ADAM: Brethren and sisters, this represents the telestial kingdom, or the world in which we now live."

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