Progression from Telestial Kingdom

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ajax
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

inho wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:09 pm
HappyCamper8 wrote: January 25th, 2018, 2:00 pm
inho wrote: January 25th, 2018, 1:58 pm HappyCamper8, let's see if I understand your reasoning correctly:
You are saying that since we now live in a telestial world and can later get into terrestrial or celestial kingdom, this implies that one can progress from telestial kingdom to a higher kingdom.


I think the problem is that even though we call this world where we live during our mortal probation telestial, it is not the Telestial kingdom. The Telestial kingdom is something much better than this mortal world:
D&C 76:89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;
Not true according to Elder Holland in general conference last October.
"We are in the telestial kingdom;"
Direct quote.
I disagree with your interpretation. I admit that we sometimes use the adjective telestial, when we refer to this world (as Holland did), but this world is not the telestial kingdom. Let me quote the same passage again, this time I include the next verse too:
89 And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding;

90 And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.
Does this sound like a reference to this world? If we live in the telestial kingdom, then all men know it.
Or perhaps 100% of people don't know this is a/the telestial kingdom/world until revealed. Just because it hasn't been revealed to you yet, doesn't mean it isn't.

And it does surpass all understanding, just thinking of creation, sustaining of life, and the science behind it all - surpasses all of our understandings.

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ajax
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

And then there is the idea of those of higher kingdoms ministering to those of lower kingdoms. What is the point of ministering if not to lift up and perhaps out? I believe Christ was of a higher grade material before he got here. He came to minister to this world to lift people out of it. "Knowest thou the condescension of God?"

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

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ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 12:51 pm And then there is the idea of those of higher kingdoms ministering to those of lower kingdoms. What is the point of ministering if not to lift up and perhaps out? I believe Christ was of a higher grade material before he got here. He came to minister to this world to lift people out of it. "Knowest thou the condescension of God?"
No offense, Ajax, but you're using logical suppositions as a substitute for scripture. Can you show me any scriptures addressing post-resurrection progression between kingdoms?

As per "what is the point of ministering...", do you suppose there could be more goals to ministering than simply the conclusion you came to? I'm not against the idea of progression between kingdoms, per se, but I don't see a lot of scriptural or doctrinal evidence for it.

Think of the concept of First and Second Estates. Those that kept not their First Estate did not progress into the Second Estate. Those that keep not the Second Estate....?

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ajax
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:31 pm Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.
Especially if we get a bunch of free MMP do-overs, eh?

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

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ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:31 pm Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.
1) "reasonable to believe" is not equivalent to doctrinal fact. It can be a belief, however. That's shaky ground at best until confirmed by revelation. To date, it has not been.
2) Nowhere is this concept found in the scriptures.
3) I also believe God to be immensely reasonable and merciful. But if His plan was for advancement within and between kingdoms, I think He would have provided a bit more detail on the matter. If not through the scriptures, then at least through the definitive words of the many modern prophets He has called in this dispensation. To date, He has not. Therefore, how can it be taught as doctrine?

I'd stick to calling it a belief at best for now. I know there are some who teach it as irrefutable doctrine, but to my knowledge they are not within the church. As I have shown earlier, the weight of evidence seems to be in the negative at present.

As always, I await further light and knowledge. I haven't seen it yet.

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ajax
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:40 pm
ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:31 pm Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.
Especially if we get a bunch of free MMP do-overs, eh?
Maybe, maybe not. Makes more sense to my mind than the one shot yer out folks. (I was a one shot yer out folk for years)

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:56 pm
Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:40 pm
ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:31 pm Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.
Especially if we get a bunch of free MMP do-overs, eh?
Maybe, maybe not. Makes more sense to my mind than the one shot yer out folks. (I was a one shot yer out folk for years)
OK, fine, you sat around and figured that you like MMP better. Whatever floats your boat. However, neither you nor alaris, the proven liar, have authority to reveal new doctrine to the Church. You like Snuffer doctrine. I say its anathema. That's why he got his well-deserved excommunication.

Why do Snufferites even hang out here anyway?

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ajax
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:49 pm
ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:31 pm Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.
1) "reasonable to believe" is not equivalent to doctrinal fact. It can be a belief, however. That's shaky ground at best until confirmed by revelation. To date, it has not been. Did I ever say it was doctrinal?
2) Nowhere is this concept found in the scriptures. And nowhere in the scriptures is it found that it cannot happen.
3) I also believe God to be immensely reasonable and merciful. But if His plan was for advancement within and between kingdoms, I think He would have provided a bit more detail on the matter. It's nice you think what his time table would be. If not through the scriptures, then at least through the definitive words of the many modern prophets He has called in this dispensation. To date, He has not. Therefore, how can it be taught as doctrine? I never called it doctrine. And I find it fascinating per the link I gave above of the various opinions on the matter from past LDS leaders.

I'd stick to calling it a belief at best for now. That's what I said. I know there are some who teach it as irrefutable doctrine, but to my knowledge they are not within the church. As I have shown earlier, the weight of evidence seems to be in the negative at present.

As always, I await further light and knowledge. I haven't seen it yet. For sure. But why wait for some authority? Why not get it yourself? Not saying I have. Just sayin.

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ajax
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 2:00 pm
ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:56 pm
Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:40 pm
ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:31 pm Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.
Especially if we get a bunch of free MMP do-overs, eh?
Maybe, maybe not. Makes more sense to my mind than the one shot yer out folks. (I was a one shot yer out folk for years)
OK, fine, you sat around and figured that you like MMP better. Whatever floats your boat. However, neither you nor alaris, the proven liar, have authority to reveal new doctrine to the Church. You like Snuffer doctrine. I say its anathema. That's why he got his well-deserved excommunication.

Why do Snufferites even hang out here anyway?
Do you have any conception of reasonable dialogue? OR have you been bitten by the modern social media bug and just yell at people who have differing opinions?

And I'm not sure why you call me a Snufferite.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 2:06 pm
Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 2:00 pm
ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:56 pm
Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:40 pm

Especially if we get a bunch of free MMP do-overs, eh?
Maybe, maybe not. Makes more sense to my mind than the one shot yer out folks. (I was a one shot yer out folk for years)
OK, fine, you sat around and figured that you like MMP better. Whatever floats your boat. However, neither you nor alaris, the proven liar, have authority to reveal new doctrine to the Church. You like Snuffer doctrine. I say its anathema. That's why he got his well-deserved excommunication.

Why do Snufferites even hang out here anyway?
Do you have any conception of reasonable dialogue? OR have you been bitten by the modern social media bug and just yell at people who have differing opinions?

And I'm not sure why you call me a Snufferite.
If it walks like a Snufferite, and talks like a Snufferite...

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iWriteStuff
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

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ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 2:02 pm
iWriteStuff wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:49 pm
ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:31 pm Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.
1) "reasonable to believe" is not equivalent to doctrinal fact. It can be a belief, however. That's shaky ground at best until confirmed by revelation. To date, it has not been. Did I ever say it was doctrinal?
2) Nowhere is this concept found in the scriptures. And nowhere in the scriptures is it found that it cannot happen.
3) I also believe God to be immensely reasonable and merciful. But if His plan was for advancement within and between kingdoms, I think He would have provided a bit more detail on the matter. It's nice you think what his time table would be. If not through the scriptures, then at least through the definitive words of the many modern prophets He has called in this dispensation. To date, He has not. Therefore, how can it be taught as doctrine? I never called it doctrine. And I find it fascinating per the link I gave above of the various opinions on the matter from past LDS leaders.

I'd stick to calling it a belief at best for now. That's what I said. I know there are some who teach it as irrefutable doctrine, but to my knowledge they are not within the church. As I have shown earlier, the weight of evidence seems to be in the negative at present.

As always, I await further light and knowledge. I haven't seen it yet. For sure. But why wait for some authority? Why not get it yourself? Not saying I have. Just sayin.
Sounds like we both refer to it as a belief and not doctrinal fact. No disagreement then?

I also find it interesting that there has been a lot of speculation on the subject by many renowned leaders and yet no official doctrinal revelation to the church. I suppose we can infer from that what we will. Until then, I'd say the burden of proof lies with the proponents of the belief. I don't feel as though I stand to lose anything by sticking with the doctrine that "this life is the time to prepare to meet God", given the bountiful evidence for it in the scriptures and words of modern prophets.

I have no issue with gaining my own testimony of truth. It is why I'm still in the good ship Zion.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by ajax »

iWriteStuff wrote: January 26th, 2018, 2:15 pm
Sounds like we both refer to it as a belief and not doctrinal fact. No disagreement then?

I also find it interesting that there has been a lot of speculation on the subject by many renowned leaders and yet no official doctrinal revelation to the church. I suppose we can infer from that what we will. Until then, I'd say the burden of proof lies with the proponents of the belief. I don't feel as though I stand to lose anything by sticking with the doctrine that "this life is the time to prepare to meet God", given the bountiful evidence for it in the scriptures and words of modern prophets.

I have no issue with gaining my own testimony of truth.
I agree. We all give reasons for belief. No need to jump down each others throats over it. I would say that despite my different opinion, the idea that "this life is the time to prepare to meet God" has not lost its import.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by HappyCamper8 »

gclayjr wrote: January 26th, 2018, 10:01 am While I will take you at your word that you are not trying to sneak in an advocacy for this heresy, and are just asking questions, I have to confess, that because of the similarity of your posts to so many other such advocates, I do still have my doubts.

by the way I live in Southern Chester county (SE corner of PA) where are you from?

Regards,

George Clay
Thanks George.
I have other questions relating to other topics of which I'd really love to hear peoples thoughts, so I can ponder ideas to questions I have. (Especially some questions relating to things said in Gospel Doctrine yesterday). Unfortunately, I don't think I will be asking here. It doesn't seem fruitful and the spirit of contention seems high here. To be fair, there were a couple thoughts given without contention, of which I'm pondering, but I don't think it was worth what happened. Thanks!

ps.
I'm from smack dab right in the middle of the state pretty much.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

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HappyCamper8 wrote: January 29th, 2018, 7:36 amTo be fair, there were a couple thoughts given without contention, of which I'm pondering, but I don't think it was worth what happened.
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Durzan
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Durzan »

IMO, I think that progression between kingdoms is possible... Its just very slow, even by Eternity's standards. God encourages us to put forth all our effort now, because like heated Iron, our souls are much easier to shape and meld to the desired forms and outcomes while we are in mortality and/or premortality. In the spirit world, our souls start to cool, and our minds start to set in their personalities, and thus it becomes harder to change, though still possible.

After the resurrection, our minds have cooled so much that we become mostly set in our ways. Most will be content in the kingdom to which they are assigned, and thus is the end of their progression; they cannot have an increase because they lost their desire to work for it. Thus it becomes almost impossible to progress once you make it to your kingdom. If by some miracle, however, someone manages to rekindle their desire to progress upwards, then I am sure it is possible to do so, although it will take exponentially more time and effort than if he did the work during mortality. Hence, the statement "he cannot have an increase" is true alongside the theoretical possiblity of someone managing to progress from one kingdom to another.

Though, since nobody is given in marriage in the Celestial kingdom, I would hazard a guess that you can only manage to go so far, and will hit an impassible wall around the 2nd degree of the celestial kingdom (assuming you manage to get that far)

Disclaimer: This is conjecture based off of what I know. While I believe its theoretically possible, that doesn't mean that this is the case; I have no real knowledge regarding the particulars of this, and it matters little in the long run, so I don't put much thought beyond entertaining the possibility.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by shadow »

ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:56 pm
Silver wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:40 pm
ajax wrote: January 26th, 2018, 1:31 pm Absent of direct revelation, reason is what we have.

Per Talmage:
"It is reasonable to believe, in the absence of direct revelation by which alone absolute knowledge of the matter could be acquired, that, in accordance with God’s plan of eternal progression, advancement from grade to grade within any kingdom, and from kingdom to kingdom, will be provided for." Articles of Faith, James E. Talmage (1st Edition, 1899, pp. 420-421)

I believe God to be an immensely reasonable person. I think the very concept of "Eternal Progression" necessitates this, coupled with the ideas of forgiveness and redemption.
Especially if we get a bunch of free MMP do-overs, eh?
Maybe, maybe not. Makes more sense to my mind than the one shot yer out folks. (I was a one shot yer out folk for years)
I don't follow the one shot crowd either. I think for the most part it's fear based. I also don't follow the multiple mortal probation idea.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by BruceRGilbert »

"Lift where you are." Create what you desire in the here and now. It is in the making of that which is "Telestial" into that which is "Celestial." It is not a "from" thing at all - it is a "to" thing" in context. It is in the "BE ing;" that which provides action and influence.

Our bodies were produced from the elements of this Earth, a sentient and sapient BE ing. In a way, we belong to "Her."

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True
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by True »

I have done a lot of genealogy and temple work and was bothered by section 76. Why was a doing all this work and sealing families if they just had to stop at the telestial kingdom. Here are some scriptures I found:

D&C 138:
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This says that the dead can repent and they can be redeemed through OBEDIENCE to the ordinances of the temple, this implies work can be done after death. Where does the temple lead? Does it stop at the telestial kingdom?

Alma 5:
21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

Anyone who inherits any kingdom has to be washed clean in the blood of Christ. Even though telestial people have to suffer for their own sins, they still are not clean, they have to accept Christ and be washed in his blood to obtain a kingdom of glory.

As per D&C 138, at some point, after a price they must pay, they then have to repent and receive the Lord (every knee will bow) and be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the temple. If you are obeying the highest law in the endowment, doesn't it seem natural that you would progress? Just to go from hell to the telestial kingdom is progression. It cannot be done without repentance and obedience to the ordinances of the temple. Why would they even need the temple if they couldn't take advantage of all of the ordinances? Why in the world am I sealing all of these families in the temple if, for the most part, that just isn't going to happen.

One other thing that I thought of was that those from higher kingdoms minister to those of a lower kingdom. Why teach and minister if there is no purpose? Why do angels minister to people on this earth? To give more light and knowledge. Having more light and knowledge is progression.

These are things I have been pondering and those are the scriptures I found. I don't go around teaching it to my kids or anything but that is what I think. I am not an apostate, not trying to pick a fight, not trying to convince anyone. Those are just my reasons for believing in post mortal progression.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

True wrote: January 31st, 2018, 4:35 pm I have done a lot of genealogy and temple work and was bothered by section 76. Why was a doing all this work and sealing families if they just had to stop at the telestial kingdom. Here are some scriptures I found:

D&C 138:
58 The dead who repent will be redeemed, through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God,

59 And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions, and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation.

This says that the dead can repent and they can be redeemed through OBEDIENCE to the ordinances of the temple, this implies work can be done after death. Where does the temple lead? Does it stop at the telestial kingdom?

Alma 5:
21 I say unto you, ye will know at that day that ye cannot be saved; for there can no man be saved except his garments are washed white; yea, his garments must be purified until they are cleansed from all stain, through the blood of him of whom it has been spoken by our fathers, who should come to redeem his people from their sins.

Anyone who inherits any kingdom has to be washed clean in the blood of Christ. Even though telestial people have to suffer for their own sins, they still are not clean, they have to accept Christ and be washed in his blood to obtain a kingdom of glory.

As per D&C 138, at some point, after a price they must pay, they then have to repent and receive the Lord (every knee will bow) and be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the temple. If you are obeying the highest law in the endowment, doesn't it seem natural that you would progress? Just to go from hell to the telestial kingdom is progression. It cannot be done without repentance and obedience to the ordinances of the temple. Why would they even need the temple if they couldn't take advantage of all of the ordinances? Why in the world am I sealing all of these families in the temple if, for the most part, that just isn't going to happen.

One other thing that I thought of was that those from higher kingdoms minister to those of a lower kingdom. Why teach and minister if there is no purpose? Why do angels minister to people on this earth? To give more light and knowledge. Having more light and knowledge is progression.

These are things I have been pondering and those are the scriptures I found. I don't go around teaching it to my kids or anything but that is what I think. I am not an apostate, not trying to pick a fight, not trying to convince anyone. Those are just my reasons for believing in post mortal progression.
I can't imagine why you would be discouraged. Your dear ancestors have died but you have had their necessary ordinances done in the temple. If they accept Christ as their Savior and accept the ordinances that are done vicariously for them then they are able to enter the Celestial Kingdom. No other church teaches this. It is the very reason why Christ went to the spirit world to organize the teaching there.

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True
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by True »

Read section 76 where it basically hints that the vast majority of people will go to the telestial kingdom. Everyone who has ever lived will get their temple work done, does that mean everyone will end up in the celestial kingdom? 76 seems to say ‘no’. I am assuming most of the people I do work for are going to the telestial kingdom since that is where most people go. I started looking at it as a starting place.

No one can be saved without accepting Christ and his atonement and being washed in the blood of Christ. (Alma 5). And the dead who repent and are made clean by Christ are redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God (D&C 138). The ordinances of the house of God do not stop at the telestial kingdom. That is where they start.

Hope that makes sense.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by brianj »

True wrote: January 31st, 2018, 7:33 pm Read section 76 where it basically hints that the vast majority of people will go to the telestial kingdom. Everyone who has ever lived will get their temple work done, does that mean everyone will end up in the celestial kingdom? 76 seems to say ‘no’. I am assuming most of the people I do work for are going to the telestial kingdom since that is where most people go. I started looking at it as a starting place.

No one can be saved without accepting Christ and his atonement and being washed in the blood of Christ. (Alma 5). And the dead who repent and are made clean by Christ are redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God (D&C 138). The ordinances of the house of God do not stop at the telestial kingdom. That is where they start.

Hope that makes sense.
I don't see the hint you mention, and I don't believe it is true. Look at how many people died before reaching the age of 8. In some places in the last few hundred years that was well over 50%. I expect that everybody born during the Millennium will be going to the Celestial Kingdom, just as the first generation of Nephites born after Christ visited seem to fit this description. But the Millennium lasts for around 1,000 years and I expect the total number of births will have dwarfed the number of people born in the last 2,000 years. And I have the understanding that murder victims, plus victims of war, will have their sins placed on the heads of those responsible for causing the war or murder so they will be fast tracked for exaltation.

Furthermore, didn't we have a general authority claim the missionary success rate in the spirit world exceeds 90%?

When I joined the church, when I went on a mission, the discussion booklets had a triangle diagram. The big bottom section referred to the people going to the Telestial Kingdom, the smaller but substantial middle was people going to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the special few at the top go to the Celestial Kingdom. The more I progress, the more convinced I am that this diagram is upside down.

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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by Silver »

brianj wrote: January 31st, 2018, 10:04 pm
True wrote: January 31st, 2018, 7:33 pm Read section 76 where it basically hints that the vast majority of people will go to the telestial kingdom. Everyone who has ever lived will get their temple work done, does that mean everyone will end up in the celestial kingdom? 76 seems to say ‘no’. I am assuming most of the people I do work for are going to the telestial kingdom since that is where most people go. I started looking at it as a starting place.

No one can be saved without accepting Christ and his atonement and being washed in the blood of Christ. (Alma 5). And the dead who repent and are made clean by Christ are redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God (D&C 138). The ordinances of the house of God do not stop at the telestial kingdom. That is where they start.

Hope that makes sense.
I don't see the hint you mention, and I don't believe it is true. Look at how many people died before reaching the age of 8. In some places in the last few hundred years that was well over 50%. I expect that everybody born during the Millennium will be going to the Celestial Kingdom, just as the first generation of Nephites born after Christ visited seem to fit this description. But the Millennium lasts for around 1,000 years and I expect the total number of births will have dwarfed the number of people born in the last 2,000 years. And I have the understanding that murder victims, plus victims of war, will have their sins placed on the heads of those responsible for causing the war or murder so they will be fast tracked for exaltation.

Furthermore, didn't we have a general authority claim the missionary success rate in the spirit world exceeds 90%?

When I joined the church, when I went on a mission, the discussion booklets had a triangle diagram. The big bottom section referred to the people going to the Telestial Kingdom, the smaller but substantial middle was people going to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the special few at the top go to the Celestial Kingdom. The more I progress, the more convinced I am that this diagram is upside down.
Exactly. The work of salvation that takes place during the Millennium will raise many of God's children to His presence, forever, to go no more out. We are commanded to seek out our dead now, but the current numbers will be dwarfed, to use your descriptive phrase, by what is accomplished in the Millennium.

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True
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by True »

brianj wrote: January 31st, 2018, 10:04 pm
True wrote: January 31st, 2018, 7:33 pm Read section 76 where it basically hints that the vast majority of people will go to the telestial kingdom. Everyone who has ever lived will get their temple work done, does that mean everyone will end up in the celestial kingdom? 76 seems to say ‘no’. I am assuming most of the people I do work for are going to the telestial kingdom since that is where most people go. I started looking at it as a starting place.

No one can be saved without accepting Christ and his atonement and being washed in the blood of Christ. (Alma 5). And the dead who repent and are made clean by Christ are redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God (D&C 138). The ordinances of the house of God do not stop at the telestial kingdom. That is where they start.

Hope that makes sense.
I don't see the hint you mention, and I don't believe it is true. Look at how many people died before reaching the age of 8. In some places in the last few hundred years that was well over 50%. I expect that everybody born during the Millennium will be going to the Celestial Kingdom, just as the first generation of Nephites born after Christ visited seem to fit this description. But the Millennium lasts for around 1,000 years and I expect the total number of births will have dwarfed the number of people born in the last 2,000 years. And I have the understanding that murder victims, plus victims of war, will have their sins placed on the heads of those responsible for causing the war or murder so they will be fast tracked for exaltation.

Furthermore, didn't we have a general authority claim the missionary success rate in the spirit world exceeds 90%?

When I joined the church, when I went on a mission, the discussion booklets had a triangle diagram. The big bottom section referred to the people going to the Telestial Kingdom, the smaller but substantial middle was people going to the Terrestrial Kingdom, and the special few at the top go to the Celestial Kingdom. The more I progress, the more convinced I am that this diagram is upside down.
Here is what I am referring to from section 76:
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

It does not make a reference to number for any other kingdom.

It is true that roughly half have died before 8. Because of that and because the gospel has not been preached to most of the world throughout all the history of the world, there is a lot more to just coming and getting a body than we even realize - although all have the light of Christ.

But that is what I am saying. I think there is a lot of progression in the next life and that a lot more people will end up in the celestial kingdom. My work in the temple and the scriptures I referenced convinced me of that.

brianj
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Re: Progression from Telestial Kingdom

Post by brianj »

True wrote: February 1st, 2018, 7:45 am Here is what I am referring to from section 76:
109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore;

It does not make a reference to number for any other kingdom.

It is true that roughly half have died before 8. Because of that and because the gospel has not been preached to most of the world throughout all the history of the world, there is a lot more to just coming and getting a body than we even realize - although all have the light of Christ.

But that is what I am saying. I think there is a lot of progression in the next life and that a lot more people will end up in the celestial kingdom. My work in the temple and the scriptures I referenced convinced me of that.
What's innumberable to Joseph Smith? If he saw all of the ~1,100,000,000 people alive in 1832, would he consider that number innumberable or easy to count? Most people can't really conceive of what a billion is. A stack of 1.1 billion $1 bills would be about 74.7 miles high.
And are the people in the Telestial Kingdom Smith saw only those from our planet or the entire population of that kingdom?

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