LDS Freedom Forum

"We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (July 19, 1840, Joseph Smith Collection, LDS Church Historical Department.) (CHB 27-28; revised in TETB 623-24)"

Any thoughts on how "this people" "shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction" any time soon?

I don't don't see that a people who largely keep returning Constitution shredders to Congress and who championed a candidate for president who has promoted unconstitutional principles are ever going to "bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction". At present I can only envision that happening if the First Presidency tells us what to do, just as they did Re. the marriage amendment issues. The Church leadership has for many years now been silent on that principle of the Gospel that requires Latter-day Saints to "befriend" the Constitution.

One thought that I have had is birthrates. I recently read "America Alone" by Mark Steyn. He uses census data to point out that any time a civilization drops below 2.1 births per woman, the population of that civilization will decline. The U.S. is one of the only western civilizations that has a birth rate higher than 2.1. Europe's native population is declining. It is being replaced by immigrants from predominantly Muslim countries with different views on legal structure (aka Sharia law).

Secular and socialist governments have pegged their continued existence on birthrates found in religious societies (like the birth rate of the Mormon culture). The problem is, in all socialist and affluent Western civilizations, the birth rates are all below the replacement rate (2.1) with the exception of the U.S. which is right at the replacement rate.

So one way the church could bear the Constitution away from destruction is by the simple fact we are having more children than enemies of the Constitution. Those with Christian values and respect for the Constitution will be the only ones around in a couple of generations.

Just an idea. I would read the book "America Alone" though. It is very interesting.

lundbaek wrote:I don't don't see that a people who largely keep returning Constitution shredders to Congress and who championed a candidate for president who has promoted unconstitutional principles are ever going to "bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction".

Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name’s sake. (Acts 9:13-16)

"Those with Christian values and respect for the Constitution will be the only ones around in a couple of generations." But I think very few LDSs have any genuine respect for the US Constitution, judging by their performance in Congress and at the polls. May by "this people" Ezra Taft Benson meant certain Americans, but not necessarily LDS who have for years ignored the Constitution and our obligation to "befreind" it. LDSs are the ones who should be leading the charge. LDS members of Congress and our candidate for president should be trying to rally the Elders of Israel in the defense of the Constitution and basic Gospel principles instead of violating them.

I think it's important to educate yourself first: http://www.campaignforliberty.com/education.php

Several of my friends are "arising and awaking unto our awful situation." It may take a while, but you can help others out who are willing to listen. I think there are more members aware of what's going on than we care to think, and the prophets especially. I mentioned Endgame to a member who I never would have thought anything about this kind of thing, and he was all about it. He knew as much or more than I.

I think it's important to get involved. Joseph Smith said something to the effect, "if you don't like your choices for political leaders, then run for office."

Just do you part, strengthen yourself and your family.

Maybe this coming depression will help the saints turn back to the values which founded this nation. Maybe there will be a French Revolution scenario. Maybe we will have a prophet speak out about the Fed and the Secret Combinations that exist and maybe then we will rise up as one and declare a Revolution and restore our government to what it was when George Washington was in office.

I don't see much hope for America unless the Prophet stands up and enlightens the minds of all who listen like that good preacher did for his congregation in the video that Col Flagg posted.

If the whole of Utah state becomes united in the cause of restoring the Constitution I think it would pass over this country like a wake and we could string up the Rockefeller family by their ears.

Is there any question that even we Mormons, as a people, are due for a good humbling? Maybe after, or as a result of, that we will be ready to get more serious about the Constitution.

If you have or can get your hands on a copy of "Prophecy and Modern Times" by Cleon Skousen, I would suggest it.

pg 42-43 Struck me.

Let me know what you think.

" As in the case of Rome, the decline begins in that hour when the cross currents of national life being to ebb and flow with a rapidity wholly baffling to the ingenuity of human leadership; and because a wicked nation will not submit to divine leadership they soon become their own worst enemies. because of distrust, jealousy and unholy ambitions among the people themselves, the very structure of their civil government soon threatens to collapse.

It is at such a time that the people begin to lose confidence in their system of government. A Crisis is precipitated by the populous demanding a change. This is the typical evolution of events in a nation which is sick at heart and will not admit that its growing lethargy is the result of poison issuing from within its own members.

Such a day would literally fulfill the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith when he said that the time would come when the Constitution of the United Stes would hang by a thread. He also said that in that hour the Elders of the Church would labor with their might to save the vestiges of democracy."

"Brigham Young points out that the Constitution will never be completely destroyed, however, because "it will be held inviolate by this people (the Latter-day Saints.)"


I cannot find the page at the moment, but it talks about that there will be an event, and the majority of the saints will suddenly wake up and fear God and realize they have been slothful and so on.

Yes it is the Humbling that is comming that will be part opf the awakening of more I believe. Unfortunately so many LDS and others are comfortable with the false precepts of men at this time. They know not where to find truth and they see us as extremists.

I do think we the extremists are part of the awakening process of others, it is us that support and push the education of these principles that are going to make the biggest difference.

lundbaek wrote:"We are fast approaching that moment prophesied by Joseph Smith when he said: "Even this nation will be on the very verge of crumbling to pieces and tumbling to the ground, and when the Constitution is upon the brink of ruin, this people will be the staff upon which the nation shall lean, and they shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction." (July 19, 1840, Joseph Smith Collection, LDS Church Historical Department.) (CHB 27-28; revised in TETB 623-24)"

Any thoughts on how "this people" "shall bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction" any time soon?

I don't don't see that a people who largely keep returning Constitution shredders to Congress and who championed a candidate for president who has promoted unconstitutional principles are ever going to "bear the Constitution away from the very verge of destruction". At present I can only envision that happening if the First Presidency tells us what to do, just as they did Re. the marriage amendment issues. The Church leadership has for many years now been silent on that principle of the Gospel that requires Latter-day Saints to "befriend" the Constitution.

The Elders will save the constitution the same way our ancestors saved their constitutional way of life. By enthroning the rule of Law via Law Institutions. Law Institutions are the Germanic 10s, 50s, 100s, 1000s work together units and system. This is bottom-up living, of, by and for the people.

The Ancestors of the “Founders” of this Church and of so many of its Members are the Founders of New England. The “TOWNSHIP MEETING WAY OF ORGANIZING THEIR LIVES AND OF ALL OF THEIR COLLABORATIONS TOGETHER” is the preparation that prepared them to:
1. Invent how to write and operate on the World’s First Written Constitution;
2. Be THE SOLE AUTHORS of the Constitution of the USA; and
3. Have all of the Nations of the Earth but 6 copy them by shifting over to putting all of the operations of their Countries to be organized so as to be able to operate on Written Constitutions.


The LDS People are the most qualified people on this Planet to show, through their vast Genealogy Resources, the exact way that the Ancient Free Enterprise System of their Ancestors operated.

The Secret Combination that is the Worldwide Conspiracy, that currently controls all of the World’s Central Banks and issues, through them, all of its different types of Fiat Money, the values of which it can make end, at any time, only has access to One Value (of those Stocks and Bonds) that is valuable enough that it can serve as the REAL Value behind such things as all of the different types of the Fiat Money of that Conspiracy.

The New England Forefathers of the first Latter-day Saints had virtually all of the USA divided up into New England type Townships. All of the people living in almost all of them are at liberty, at any time, to call themselves the “Freeholders,” within their particular Township, and to have Township Meetings (in “perpetual session,” if they wish, through their e-mailing to each other over the Internet), and vote that their Township and all of the rest of this Country be run according to their understanding of the “Just and Holy Principles” of the Township Meetings of New England which produced the US Constitution. Doing that they will have returned to those Original “Just and Holy Principles” which produced our US Constitution, in the first place.

Otherwise we have Obama's Greek Methods of top-down controls.
God Bless,
Darren

It seems to me there will have to be a change of heart like what hasn't happened since Nineveh, followed by education.

My awakening came when I "accidentally" heard a radio show here in my area about shadow government and dark ops in the CIA and FBI. I had been trying to tune into the Dr. Laura show. Instead, I accidentally tuned into an independent radio station in my area. Joel Skousen was being interviewed by the radio host on this station. I was stunned and fascinated at the same time, and had to keep listening to the same radio show every day after that. Wow, it sure changed my whole outlook on life. I am so glad I found the "wrong"station then. If I hadn't I would still be listening to Rush and Hannity, not really knowing what was going on. I probably would have been one of the neocon cheerleaders!

Later I began to research on the internet. I also started to keep a closer eye on Bush and realized that he and the estabishment Republicans were not really working for the people or the Constitution, but for a secret elite group. What these Republicans did vs what they said became more and more obvious to me. The awakening process takes awhile because there is so much info to absorb. It is also very emotionally disturbing and frightening. I literally felt like I had a huge lump in my stomach for a whole year during that time.

I think more and more grass roots democrats will wake up now with Obama being in when they realize he is not really working for the good of the country.
I have a relative who voted for him who I have been sending information to. She has the book: "Awakening to Our Awful Situation." She is slowly waking up, but says she still is trying to have hope. I think that when she starts to see Obama's real actions she will learn the truth. I keep telling her that both the dems and the reps are working for the same people. She really thought that the democratic Congress elected back in 2006 would pull the troops out of Iraq. At the time I told her it wouldn't happen. She is starting to see things like this and I think it is waking her up.

The funny thing is we both commiserated about Bush and the war in Iraq. We had great discussions on the phone about Guantanamo and secret executive orders and secret wiretapping. Now I am waiting to see how we will get along when Obama is in office. I already told her that I am going to be as hard on Obama as I was on Bush. I also asked her to please do the same and judge Obama objectively. I don't think she liked that.

I think the main problem is that people really think they are informed when they listen to Rush or Hannity or watch The Daily Show or the nightly news. They see no need to research further. They don't know there is more info out there. I know I didn't. If you don't know you are in the dark about how things really work, why would you need to research and study?

Now I try to keep an open mind about all information. I am still learning and studying to find the truth. It has been an interesting and fascinating journey.

D&C 88:77-80 counsel (command) us to make ourselves aware of "things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms". In other words, what on earth is going on.

This is a challenge because what we read, hear, and even see is usually a mixture of truths, partial truths, errors, and lies. 911 & OKC are 2 recent examples.

The account related by Istand4truth has probably happened to many others in various ways. He was apparently ready to receive the message that he got from that experience. It seems most LDSs are not, and if push came to shove now, most would not be of a mind to help save the Constitution.

OK. So why so why are some of us open to this information more so than other people?

Before I woke up I was a Rush ditto head like many of my acquaintances still are, so why did I stop drinking the koolaid? I used to be like everyone else around me: blissfully unaware living my life. To me Democrats were the enemies and Republicans the good guys who could do no wrong.

Why are some of us here so interested in these things while others are so indifferent? Is it temperament? Is it genetics or who we are individually? Why are we so different from family members and friends who still think that Bush is a conservative Christian who only wants the best for us? I used to be just like everyone else. Now I feel different. I am an oddball. I have even changed my diet and spending habits for goodness sakes! I am also more serious. I think I have changed as a person. Did anyone else experience this?

When I first woke up I tried to tell all the people I know about what I had learned. I found that conservative republicans were least responsive to the things I wanted to share with them. They would disagree with anything I shared about what Bush was doing.
To this day they continue to go on with their lives thinking that things were good under Bush. I would send them info on the net by e-mail. They would rarely even respond.
It was almost like they wanted to keep their blinders on.

I did wake up my husband, who now agrees with me and voted for Chuck Baldwin for president, but he is definitely not drawn to researching things about freedom and the Constitution like I am.

So I am interested in everyone's thoughts on why they are receptive to Constitutional principles while others around them couldn't care less.
And why are some of us so interested in analyzing the PTB and whats going on with secret combos?

To the above question "And why are some of us so interested in analyzing the PTB and whats going on with secret combos?", I have 2 reasons.

1.) The expressions "evasive action" and "damage control" come to my mind. The Church has given us what I consider basic instructions with which we all are familiar and in 100% compliance. But to improve on that, we need to factor in our individual and family circumstances (food preferences, medication requirements, climate and weather, ages of family members, etc.). Additonal factors, for me at least, are what I think the enemy is up to. And that is a big reason why I study what the LDGs are planning for us.

2.) I find that the more accurate information I have on the enemy, the more effectively I can awaken others. The information that I use to try to arouse a person's concern and awareness depends to a great extent on what I know of the person I am trying to convince of the existence of the conspiracy to establish a world government. So to be effective, I have to have a good variety of facts that I can choose from.

As to how I became receptive to Constitutional principles while others around me couldn't care less, I think it is the sum of a number of certain events that caused me to suspect treason, an experience in the USN which goes to the grave with me, observations and conclusions of people who I respect, words of certain Prophets and Apostles, our Scriptures, and a certain sensitivity I have now for this subject.

Thanks for the reply lundbaek. That makes a lot of sense. We also study a lot of this stuff to learn how we can protect our families and country. We can also contribute in different ways in saving the Constitution (according to what talents we have).

Istand4truth wrote:OK. So why so why are some of us open to this information more so than other people?

Before I woke up I was a Rush ditto head like many of my acquaintances still are, so why did I stop drinking the koolaid? I used to be like everyone else around me: blissfully unaware living my life. To me Democrats were the enemies and Republicans the good guys who could do no wrong.

Why are some of us here so interested in these things while others are so indifferent? Is it temperament? Is it genetics or who we are individually? Why are we so different from family members and friends who still think that Bush is a conservative Christian who only wants the best for us? I used to be just like everyone else. Now I feel different. I am an oddball. I have even changed my diet and spending habits for goodness sakes! I am also more serious. I think I have changed as a person. Did anyone else experience this?

When I first woke up I tried to tell all the people I know about what I had learned. I found that conservative republicans were least responsive to the things I wanted to share with them. They would disagree with anything I shared about what Bush was doing.
To this day they continue to go on with their lives thinking that things were good under Bush. I would send them info on the net by e-mail. They would rarely even respond.
It was almost like they wanted to keep their blinders on.

I did wake up my husband, who now agrees with me and voted for Chuck Baldwin for president, but he is definitely not drawn to researching things about freedom and the Constitution like I am.

So I am interested in everyone's thoughts on why they are receptive to Constitutional principles while others around them couldn't care less.
And why are some of us so interested in analyzing the PTB and whats going on with secret combos?

My guess is that you have been reading the scriptures and praying pretty consistently and the other is the simple statement that you were ready and it was your time. We are awakened when we are because of our missions our purpose. (That is my opinion of course) As I have watched many awaken, it seems to be just in time to do certain things.

You're right Proud. We wake up when we are ready.

Because of what I know I have been able to teach my children correct constitutional principles. They now know what is right. They are much more aware of things than I ever was at their ages. Maybe some of them will serve a purpose in restoring this Republic in the future. They will teach their children, and so on. At least I can influence that!

I like this quote from Heber C. Kimball..

"After a while the Gentiles will gather to this place by the thousands and Salt Lake will be classified among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints and the result will be financial bondage.
Persecution comes next, and all true Latter Day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize, and others will stand still, not knowing what to do...Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people."


(Prophecy:Key to the Future, Crowther: Prophetic sayings of HCK to Amanda H. Wilcox, BYU)

I think this statement holds a clue as to what that "event" would be that would cause an "awakening". What is the result of financial bondage and an economic collapse? We need true humility to survive the onslaught of persecution that is coming our way. Unfortunately, as we can read from the scriptures, being brought to the depths of humility is not very fun.

Maybe there will be a French Revolution scenario.

Sorry, I haven't read every post since this statement caught my attention.

Curiously, there are indeed many of the same elements in place which precipitated the French Revolution, but they are not the conditions we were taught in most history books.

By the time the Reign of Terror began in July 1793, the French middle-class in fitful cooperation with the nobles and clergy had gone a long way toward creating a constitutional republic.

Yes, the elite class had debauched the value of money by borrowing for wars, nonsense, and supporting the American Revolution. Two men appointed with the wisdom to create a financial plan that would have saved the French currency were each forced out of their positions by manipulation of the grain markets thus creating famine and by inciting the general population into believing that Marie Antoinette was an Austrian spy and that Louis XVI was indifferent to the people's will and condition. Louis XVI was executed in January 1793

In July 1793 the National Convention set aside the constitutional concept and created The Committee of Public Safety which had dictatorial power to arrest anyone considered an 'enemy of the state'. Under Robespierre a Republic of Virtue was created in which "the welfare of each individual, and where each individual enjoys with pride the prosperity and glory of our country.."

Under the Law of Suspects the Committee of Public Safety sent agents to enlist local 'reliable's' throughout France to identify all opponents to the 'new order'. Tens of thousands of men, women, and children were guillotined for 'disloyalty'.

In addition, CPS dealt with the 'threat' of foreign invasion by instituting a national draft law making every Frenchman - whatever his age or occupation - eligible to be drafted into the army.

CPS set strict price and wage limits and rationed food.

If the 'guilty' nobles were eliminated why did the Reign of Terror begin after Louis XVI's death?

What was the force behind the manipulation which continued a blood bath of not only the ruling class, but of anyone opposed to the 'revolution'?

Apparently, 'secret combinations' within Jacobin 'clubs' upholding Illuminati goals for social/economic engineering were the force driving the French Revolution. That fact remains true in our time. Beware of uprisings and Committees of Public Safety.

tmac wrote:Is there any question that even we Mormons, as a people, are due for a good humbling? Maybe after, or as a result of, that we will be ready to get more serious about the Constitution.

I believe we, as LDS, are definitely due for a "cleansing" or humbling. The majority of members are way too complacent with the status quo and only see things in black and white. For instance, you're either a "Bush supporter" or a "Bush hater". Too many times when I try to wake up members, they just keep saying "You just hate Bush", no matter what I say or how many documented truths and unconstitutional laws I show them. They're stuck in the "left-right false paradigm" and can't see outside that box.

I agree with President Benson that the need for a cleansing is definitely increasing.

"Sometimes the Lord waits on his children to act on their own, and when they do not, they lose the greater prize. The more He has to spell it out, the smaller is our reward. Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the Church – and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing — a famine in the land of one year’s duration could wipe out a large percent of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers." - Ezra Taft Benson, CR April 1965

Anyone else see this?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a9c_1226423566

Apparently there are others out there willing to make a real commitment to the Constitution.

Army Of Truth wrote:

tmac wrote:Is there any question that even we Mormons, as a people, are due for a good humbling? Maybe after, or as a result of, that we will be ready to get more serious about the Constitution.

I believe we, as LDS, are definitely due for a "cleansing" or humbling. The majority of members are way too complacent with the status quo and only see things in black and white. For instance, you're either a "Bush supporter" or a "Bush hater". Too many times when I try to wake up members, they just keep saying "You just hate Bush", no matter what I say or how many documented truths and unconstitutional laws I show them. They're stuck in the "left-right false paradigm" and can't see outside that box.

I agree with President Benson that the need for a cleansing is definitely increasing.

"Sometimes the Lord waits on his children to act on their own, and when they do not, they lose the greater prize. The more He has to spell it out, the smaller is our reward. Should the Lord decide at this time to cleanse the Church – and the need for that cleansing seems to be increasing — a famine in the land of one year’s duration could wipe out a large percent of slothful members, including some ward and stake officers." - Ezra Taft Benson, CR April 1965

Now that is humbling....

Now that the national election is over, the Idaho Constitution Party is trying to regroup and start making some new goals/objectives for the next two years. One thing that came up in our latest meeting was that since the "Obama" election there has been an increase in people seeking our party out and saying that they are finally fed up with the Republican Party. The sad part about this is that the majority of those people are not LDS (which is interesting since I would still say that Idaho is predominately LDS compared to most parts of the country).

Anyway we were talking about the fact that many of the LDS community still at the end of the day, plugged their nose and voted for McCain so they could at least say they didn't vote for Obama and now they are just going back to their normal life (albeit with a little fear in what an Obama Presidency may bring). In one respect I am very excited that some people are finally seeing that the whole Republican campaign was a crock, but in another way it makes me sad that so many are content to just say "well I at least didn't vote for Obama" so I can go back to my normal life with a clear conscience (I won't even go down the path of discussing my Republican friends that got fed up with the Republican Party, but to revolt they chose Obama--ugh!).

In actuality I sometimes find it easier to discuss the Constitution with a "good-intentioned" Obama supporter than a "at least I did my duty and pulled the R lever, Mormon McCain supporter."

What is everyone else seeing? The reason I bring this up in this thread is that I wonder if some of "the people" that save the Constitution may not be long-time Mormons, but instead long-time Constitution supporters who join the church later (and/or even innocently incorrect Obama supporters who after a little discussion about the Constitution humbly change at the appropriate time).

At any rate, in relation to "which people" will save the Constitution, the future is definitely hard to predict.

The effort to save the Constitution that we are on about here will include certain LDSs, if I understand correctly the statements given about it. At present, a relatively few of us are trying to do that now, or at least grease the skids for a future greater effort. Most LDS are probably aware of the issue, but barely give it lip service. Ezra Taft Benson suggested that a formal effort to "save the Constitution" will not involve or include a program initiated by the Church. In that case, the effort will have to be made by people led by leaders not appointed by the Church. It may be that certain politicians will try to take some lead in such an effort. Can you imagine any one of the current crop of LDS politicos doing a turnabout and trying to lead in an effort to restore constitutional government in America? I can imagine a few of them trying, and I can imagine a large number of LDSs following them, even though they were previously Constitution shredders in office.