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Ah, now we have crossed the bridge into the Land of Nuance. I like where this is going.Michelle wrote: ↑December 30th, 2017, 9:45 pm I have to say first, I agree with a lot of what iWriteStuff is saying, but I think the Spirit still needs to be used with regard to "helping' others.
My father worked in San Francisco for years and he said nearly everyday he would invite a beggar to lunch, but no one ever took him up on the offer.
I have seen my share of panhandlers and asked if I should do anything without receiving confirmation that it was right. In fact, I can only remember one time when the Spirit clearly told me to buy a woman lunch, which I did and then I took it to her and she was so grateful. (That doesn't mean I don't help in other ways, but usually the Spirit says no to giving money to strangers like that.)
On the opposite hand, we once gave a lot of groceries (non perishables) to a family member, single mom with two kids, who was always asking for money for groceries. When she moved out of our basement a year or so later, she had my kids throw away all the food we had given her (still in the cupboards) and told them not to tell us. She was too lazy to even prepare the just-open-the-can and add-water foods we had bought for her. She preferred to eat out every meal, usually by showing up at a certain family members house, that liked to go out to eat, about dinner time.
Gotta have the Spirit in all things.
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
"From all of this it would appear that the one thing God will not tolerate in his children is that meanness of spirit which would take advantage of his other children and even of him. "Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the Lord . . . any bullock, or sheep with any blemish or fault whatever or any evil-favoredness: for that is an abomination unto the Lord thy God" (Deuteronomy 17:1). Why? Because it is cheap, it is mean, the equivalent of shaving one's tithing or underestimating one's fast offering. As Isaiah reminds Israel, God does not need your offering, it is you he is testing. He does not ask us to get rich so that we can help him; as Brigham Young said so often, God has put these things into our hands so that we can show him and all the world and ourselves how we will handle them and what we will do with them. It is meanness of spirit that will disqualify us before everything else for a celestial assignment."
Thanks for hitting on that point, Marc. I totally overlooked it. To that point, and only speaking for myself, I have never felt the Spirit tell me to be less charitable.marc wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 8:35 am I have learned in my own life that I don't need inspiration to do what is right, or rather what is required of me if I have it. If I have nothing to give, then I have nothing to give. I do not need the Spirit in every instance, when I already know what is right. To quote Jesus Christ:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Every such situation is an opportunity to measure one's love (or lack thereof). If I have had nothing to impart, I have spent my time getting to know that person. I know that if I was that poor man found "half dead" by the road, the "Samaritan" (Jesus) would have stopped to offer succor. That is what He does and that is because of who He is.iWriteStuff wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 8:42 amThanks for hitting on that point, Marc. I totally overlooked it. To that point, and only speaking for myself, I have never felt the Spirit tell me to be less charitable.marc wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 8:35 am I have learned in my own life that I don't need inspiration to do what is right, or rather what is required of me if I have it. If I have nothing to give, then I have nothing to give. I do not need the Spirit in every instance, when I already know what is right. To quote Jesus Christ:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Thanks for that marvelous opening, Silver! Some thoughts on Babylon from Approaching Zion:
"I could quote a hundred scriptures to show that Babylon is nothing but the inverse image of Zion. Babylon is a state of mind, as Zion is, with its appropriate environment. Just like Zion, Babylon is a city. "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen" (Revelation 18:2). The great world center of commerce and business, "the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies" (Revelation 18:3). Indeed, "thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived" (Revelation 18:23). Babylon's economy is built on deceptions. Babylon is described fully in Revelation 18: She is rich, luxurious, immoral, full of fornications, merchants, riches, delicacies, sins, merchandise, gold, silver, precious stones, pearls, fine linens, purples, silks, scarlets, thyine wood, all manner of vessels, ivory, precious wood, brass, iron, marble, and so on. She is a giant delicatessen, full of wine, oil, fine flour, wheat; a perfume counter with cinnamon, odors, ointments, and frankincense; a market with beasts and sheep. It reads like a savings stamp catalog or a guide to a modern supermarket or department store. Horses and chariots and all manner of services are available; slaves in the souls of men.
"Babylon then, like Zion, is a type. If Zion is wherever the celestial order prevails, Babylon is the culmination of the worldly power wherever it happens. Through the ages, that power has actually culminated in just such world centers as ancient Babylon. Rome itself was entirely eligible for the name. The church of Rome called itself "the church that is at Babylon" (1 Peter 5:13). Rome was Babylon the great in every respect. And in the last days we must have a Babylon, too. For the call has gone forth, "Go ye out of Babylon. Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord. Go ye out of Babylon; gather ye out from among the nations" (D&C 133:7). "Go ye out from among the nations, even from Babylon, from the midst of wickedness, which is spiritual Babylon" (D&C 133:14)."
Can we mix Babylon and Zion?"Just as the order of Zion began with Adam in the garden, the rival system is just as old. It, too, was proposed to Adam, and he rejected it, while his son Cain accepted it. The plan Satan proposed to Adam was to put everything in this glorious and beautiful world up for sale. You could have anything in this world for money, but you had to have money."
"There is an unbridgeable gap between Zion and Babylon. We cannot compromise on the two ways, because the two ways lead in opposite directions. In recent years, the course of the whole world has suddenly and dramatically vindicated the position taken by the early saints and largely forgotten by their descendants. We are discovering that there really are two worlds; that the one leads to sure destruction written in capital letters on everything we behold, as Joseph Smith put it, and only the other offers salvation. This is the ancient doctrine of the "Two Ways" taught in the early church—the way of darkness and the way of light. It was impossible to try to compromise between them because they led in opposite directions. Yet in the ancient church, it was the compromisers, the dyophysites, who won. When we try to mix Zion and Babylon, Babylon has already won the game. It is amazing that any teaching so fundamental and so clear-cut could be so effectively silenced today among people professing to preach and to practice the restored gospel."
Quite frankly, my family and neighbors and close friends are far more important then the stranger on the street who is there year after year. I remember once being ready to give once again to a stranger, when it came to my mind that it is okay to use the money and give good gifts to my children, that in my overzealousness to help someone I don't know, I may be forgetting the one's I really do know and have relationships with. I remember in my times of overzealousness the counsel of my wife, stating that I was so eager to give to those I don't know and yet so stingy with those I know and live with and presumably love.12 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
3 Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.
4 Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,
5 Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?
6 This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.
7 Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.
8 For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.
Also interestingly is King Benjamins addendum to his speech:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children
I remember sitting in Sunday school where this exact topic was being discussed, with many people giving a variety of thoughts on the matter and afterwards my father stating to me that the nice thing about the conversation was that even though there were differences of opinion, everybody had seriously thought about this and tried to make application in their lives.27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
This is nice, but I think it also needs to be coupled with:marc wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 8:35 am I have learned in my own life that I don't need inspiration to do what is right, or rather what is required of me if I have it. If I have nothing to give, then I have nothing to give. I do not need the Spirit in every instance, when I already know what is right. To quote Jesus Christ:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Giving to every request without thought can lead to absurdities. Think non-monetary requests.27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
Cicero had similar thoughts on the matter, derived from Stoic philosophy. Although not scriptural, I offer them for your consideration:ajax wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 9:15 am Also interestingly is King Benjamins addendum to his speech:
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
He goes on further to lay out some guidelines about charitable giving, but with the underlying maxim: Don't give so much away that you can't take care of your family. Your first duty is to your family and dependents; after those needs are satisfied, you can see to the needs of others. Also, don't give away so much that you destroy your ability to give again in the future."Many, indeed, have squandered their property in inconsiderate generosity. But what is more foolish than to disable yourself from continuing to do what you take pleasure in doing? Moreover, rapine follows extravagance in giving; for when men in consequence of their lavish generosity have begun to be in want, they are constrained to lay hands on the property of others... Therefore private property should neither be so shut up that kindness cannot open it, nor so thrown wide as to lie open to all. Let a limit be observed, and let this be determined by our means."
- Cicero, On Moral Duties
I don't read it as denigration of supermarkets. I read it as denouncement of the deification of supermarkets. When men set their hearts upon material goods to the point where the goods become their gods, they've crossed the Bridge of Idolatry into Babylon itself.ajax wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 9:41 am "It reads like a savings stamp catalog or a guide to a modern supermarket or department store. Horses and chariots and all manner of services are available; slaves in the souls of men."
This is where Nibley really loses me. He is always ready to tramp on the common man that bring goods and services on the market. The supermarket? Really? This from a guy who sat in a ivory tower and earned his living off the tithes of others.
I wonder how quickly the eyes of the students in my Gospel Doctrine class would glaze over if I mentioned the debate between the Monophysites and the Dyophysites.iWriteStuff wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 9:12 am Babylon continued:
Can we mix Babylon and Zion?"Just as the order of Zion began with Adam in the garden, the rival system is just as old. It, too, was proposed to Adam, and he rejected it, while his son Cain accepted it. The plan Satan proposed to Adam was to put everything in this glorious and beautiful world up for sale. You could have anything in this world for money, but you had to have money."
"There is an unbridgeable gap between Zion and Babylon. We cannot compromise on the two ways, because the two ways lead in opposite directions. In recent years, the course of the whole world has suddenly and dramatically vindicated the position taken by the early saints and largely forgotten by their descendants. We are discovering that there really are two worlds; that the one leads to sure destruction written in capital letters on everything we behold, as Joseph Smith put it, and only the other offers salvation. This is the ancient doctrine of the "Two Ways" taught in the early church—the way of darkness and the way of light. It was impossible to try to compromise between them because they led in opposite directions. Yet in the ancient church, it was the compromisers, the dyophysites, who won. When we try to mix Zion and Babylon, Babylon has already won the game. It is amazing that any teaching so fundamental and so clear-cut could be so effectively silenced today among people professing to preach and to practice the restored gospel."
Mention of processing olives and grapes brings up the word "extortion"; the literal meaning of the word "is to squeeze the last drop out of a thing."
The gifts of God, we are told, which are the bounties of the earth, are to be used "with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion" (D&C 59:20). How often it is that these last drops mean the extra profit we so eagerly pursue.
And now comes one of the most famous passages in the Bible: "For the poor shall never cease out of the land" (Deuteronomy 15:11). We have given this a rather mean twist today, arguing that since the poor will always be there, it is a waste of time to help them, for that will only encourage them and make more of them. Thus we ignore the rest of the verse (I have never heard anyone quote it), which is: "Therefore I command thee, saying thou shalt open up thy hand wide unto thy brother, to thy poor, and to thy needy, in thy land" (Deuteronomy 15:11). Their perpetual presence is not to make us indifferent, but it is a constant reminder that God has his eye on us.
ajax wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 9:22 amThis is nice, but I think it also needs to be coupled with:marc wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 8:35 am I have learned in my own life that I don't need inspiration to do what is right, or rather what is required of me if I have it. If I have nothing to give, then I have nothing to give. I do not need the Spirit in every instance, when I already know what is right. To quote Jesus Christ:
Luke 6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
Giving to every request without thought can lead to absurdities. Think non-monetary requests.27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.
David13 wrote: ↑December 31st, 2017, 2:59 pm
I think you have it there.
There is something bothering me about it.
What is charity? Is charity giving the doper or alcoholic on the street some "spare change, man" or a dollar or 5? And then being glib about it, and it doesn't matter to you if you have helped them, or hurt them?
That's where you lose me.
What about giving food, as above, where they didn't want it, and didn't eat it. So it went to waste.
"I doesn't matter man, I gave, that's all I have to do, man." "It's not on me if it's waste that could have gone to someone who needed it, or would have used it, man."
And is it always giving money.
What about stopping to talk with that doper or drinker for a moment. Asking about their life. 2 or 3 minutes. And then counseling or advising about getting their life back. Is that charity? Or is is that you can't say anything, just give them money.
It's faster. And less possible hassle. Yes, some of them get real resentful, hostile even. But it isn't very many of them.
Or, do you just do the minimum. As little as possible so you can get back on your way. Toss a buck or two. Or, does charity include planting a seed of hope of change into someone's life.
dc
As an additional thought, I guess it has to be different for me, at least a bit. My stock in trade is my time and advice. But couldn't that be true for all of us?
I does feel like people focus so much on money. All the earth is the Lord's and he can provide manna from heaven. (It seems to be favored by those hoping to GET from United Order more than give. Nothing stopping us from giving right now. )Acts3:3 Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms.
4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
"Is the law unrealistic, impractical? It is much too late for me to worry about that now, for I have already accepted it and repeated my acceptance at least once every month. (At a recent conference [October 1978], Elder Mark E. Petersen spoke of the importance of keeping all the covenants we have made—and none is more important, more specific, more sacred than this one.) What about Brother So-and-So or President So-and So? He is free to do as he pleases; I did not covenant with him! I knew quite well what I was promising to do and when and where I was to do it, and why—now it is up to me! This is not like plural marriage, which was suspended by a formal decree because the whole of American society and government had thrown their weight against it with dedicated and unrelenting fury that disrupted the whole course of life in the Church and even the nation. When the United Order was dissolved in 1834, it was through no pressure from outside but because of greed and hypocrisy ("covetousness, and with feigned words," D&C 104:4, 52) within the Church. Brigham Young revived it again—the Brigham Young Academy at Provo was founded for the explicit purpose, in his words, of countering "the theories of Huxley, of Darwin, or of Miall and the false political economy which contends against cooperation and the United Order."
"But after him the old covetousness and feigned words triumphed again as rich men quietly bought up controlling shares of the cooperatives without changing the name... "I want you to understand," said Heber C. Kimball, "that you make covenants with God, and not with us. We were present and committed those covenants to you, and you made them with God, and we were witnesses." Paul recognizes this in his lucid statements about the law of consecration in his letters to Timothy, which should be studied carefully. And he is talking about the foundation of the Church, which rests on the personal contract between God and the individual: "Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, the Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity" (2 Timothy 2:19). The Lord alone knows who are the true church; he alone stands at the gate, "and he employeth no servant there" (2 Nephi 9:41), as he takes each one by the hand and speaks each name. Even the Prophet does not know who are in the covenant and who are not, "as you cannot always judge the righteous, or as you cannot always tell the wicked from the righteous, therefore I say unto you, hold your peace until I shall see fit to make all things known (D&C 10:37).
"What is there to stop me from observing and keeping the law of consecration at this very day as I have already covenanted and promised to do without reservation? Is the foundation too broad for us to build on?"
Is living the gospel a matter of life and death for us or a matter of life and "meh"? I do love it when people are passionately engaged in living and promoting the gospel. This cannot be a passive endeavor for us, or we may miss out on many blessings we could otherwise receive."I will tell you what this people need, with regard to preaching; you need, figuratively, to have it rain pitchforks, tines downwards, from this pulpit, Sunday after Sunday. Instead of the smooth, beautiful, sweet, still, silk−velvet−lipped preaching, you should have sermons like peals of thunder, and perhaps we then can get the scales from our eyes. This style is necessary in order to save many of this people. Give them smooth preaching, and let them glide along in their own desires and wishes, and they will follow after the traditions of their forefathers and the inclinations of their own wicked hearts, and give way to temptation, little by little, until, by and by, they are ripe for destruction."
- JD 3:223, Brigham Young, March 2, 1856