LDS Freedom Forum

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 10:38 am BoM says we are to repent in this life. Believe that or not, that is up to you.

Alma 40:14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 10:49 am

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 10:38 am BoM says we are to repent in this life. Believe that or not, that is up to you.

Alma 40:14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

I agree with you, NOW is the time to repent--I know that to be true and Alma is absolutely correct in telling us this and we need to repent each and every day and be better, every day. I just don't agree with you that repentance is not possible in the next life. I believe it is much harder to repent, but not impossible; as per Peter and Joseph F. Smith (two church presidents), as well as an experience that my cousin had, I am convinced that spirits of the dead are able to repent and avail themselves of the Atonement(it is infinite and eternal) in the spirit world. I believe there is a lot of missionary work which takes place in Paradise and Spirit Prison and spirits there are taught the principles of the gospel (just as Peter and Joseph F. Smith saw and confirmed)--they are taught about Jesus Christ and they are invited to have faith in him, repent and call on him to save them. We also do proxy work in the temple for those who never had the ordinances and they are necessary.

You apparently reject this doctrine of the LDS church, but then you rejected the LDS church and living prophets as well. That would make it hard for you to receive all truths available to you.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 11:02 am I don't believe everything that people claim JS said, but can you give a quote from JS that states directly we can repent after we die?

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 2:14 pm I do progression can happen if we make it to the highest degree. No exact direct quote then I take it.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 10:45 am Regarding rejecting living prophets, where have your so called prophets prophesied, boldly claimed they have seen Jesus face to face, translated an ancient record, or revealed something new? We are to know prophets by their fruits, not know their fruits after we believe they are prophets.

“When you bear testimony that you have seen God. … Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. … Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you.” Oliver Cowdery DHC 2:195-196

I am glad you like some of the blog posts. We may not agree on everything, but perhaps in some areas we can help each other learn.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/

shadow wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 2:40 pm

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 2:14 pm I do progression can happen if we make it to the highest degree. No exact direct quote then I take it.

22. Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; for the prisoners go free.- Joseph Smith

Why are they in prison? What would cause them to be freed?

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 3:56 pm Mark obviously rejects what is taught in the BoM.

Just because I don't believe things the same way you do does not mean I reject revelations or scriptures.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 11:01 am Repentance is a thing that cannot be trifled with every day. Daily transgression and daily repentance is not that which is pleasing in the sight of God. - Joseph Smith, Words of Joseph Smith - Deluxe Study Edition, Kindle Locations 10455-10456

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 5th, 2018, 8:11 am I love the word of God aka iron rod aka scriptures. I honestly believe in the BoM more that I did before.

I'm not saying not to repent, but I'm saying we should not keep sinning.

LDS church rejects things that JS restored. Lectures on Faith comes to mind as one document. FYI it was the doctrine of the D&C in 1835.

Lectures on Faith 5:2 there is a phrase that confuses people, it did me at first also, “The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fulness”, namely “personage of spirit”.

You say living prophets, what have they actually done that goes with that title you keep assigning to them?
https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/

In honor of today and yesterday

Show me a Prophet that prophecies. Or better yet show me a prophet that boldly testifies that he has seen the face of God and lives, Genesis 32:30. Just like the charge from Oliver Cowdrey “When you bear testimony that you have seen God.”This sounds like a partial sentence and so I'm not sure exactly what context and what point he was trying to make. I do think that Oliver Cowdery understood that it was a great privilege that he was a special witness for the restoration and I know he understood that there would be many who whose gift of the spirit would be to 'believe on the testimony of others'--namely his testimony. Not everyone is given this gift, but yet, we are still expected to bear testimony. I bear testimony of my faith in the Savior, but I haven't seen him in the flesh. It feels to me that you don't respect my kind of testimony, but only want to hear from those who can tell you (and will share it) that they've seen Jesus in the flesh. With what the Lord told Thomas--that is was 'more blessed' to believe without seeing. I don't understand those like you who discount the testimonies of those who know by faith, and not by pure knowledge. DHC 2:195-196. Such that I will gain the courage myself to experience the fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ myself, see D&C 76:14 and LoF 2:56, which is seeing God face to face.That's fine, you should be working toward that, but I think you should not discount the power of a testimony borne in faith. The Lord did not discount these humble testimonies. Show me a prophet of God that teaches us not to rely on him but on God.Go listen to a General Conference talk--they tell us all the time to rely on God--I've never heard them tell us to rely on them--they've only reminded us to heed their counsel, as they try to teach us the things that Heavenly Father has inspired them to teach, for this is their calling and stewardship--to be witnesses for Christ. And no, they don't have to tell us they've 'seen' him for their testimonies to be of value to us. That teaches us what God’s commandments are, that we may receive God’s protection, and in preparation to see God. Wise words from Joseph Smith on the subject, “Oh! I beseech you to go forward, go forward and make your calling and your election sure; and if any man preach any other Gospel than that which I have preached, he shall be cursed; and some of you who now hear me shall see it, and know that I testify the truth concerning them.” TPJS, p. 366.No one is preaching against striving to make your calling and election sure, but I am warning some to realize that keeping commandments, keeping covenants made in the temple and through the waters of baptism, living the gospel in our relationships with those around us, serving and loving others, etc....these things are a requirement for receiving the second comforter--there are no short cuts. THAT is what Joseph Smith taught and that's what we should emphasize. It comes after a life of living and showing that we will do all he's asked and live the commandments strictly, repenting and receiving of his spirit daily. He desires to bless us, but we must do our part and then we wait patiently and humbly upon the Lord.

Show me a Seer that translates ancient records himself, see Mosiah 8:13 & Mosiah 28:16, instead of hiring people to translate ancient records. Show me a Seer who is translating the Book of Mormon into Hebrew to help bring the Book of Mormon to the Jews as talked about in its title page, not someone who supports political agreements to keep a school in Jerusalem at the expense of the Lord’s public stated plans. Show me a Seer who makes unknown things known, see Mosiah 8:17.How do you know that this is not the will of Heavenly Father on how this was handled? You know that 'the last shall be first and the first shall be last'. I believe that not until the Jews humble themselves and repent, will they have the opportunity to hear the gospel, and so, by their own choice, they will be 'last', as was prophesied. As for translating, why does the Prophet have to do everything? Why not allow others to use their gifts to translate things that can easily be translated by someone who knows the language? You know, Joseph didn't translate the Book of Mormon because he was fluent in reformed egyptian--the fact is, no one was fluent and knew the language. That was why Joseph had to do it, through the power of God. And, if Heavenly Father needs a prophet to translate something that no one knows the language, the Prophet can do it. Otherwise, there's no reason to not let others do it.

Show me a Revelator that reveals things from the Lord saying thus saithI disagree with the narrow demand that some, like you insist on, that Revelations must begin with 'thus saith the Lord'. Sorry, I simply disagree and think you are straining at gnats. the Lord so we can know what is from the Lord We're supposed to pray for confirmation that the things taught to us by our Prophets are from God--That's how we 'know' it is from the Lord. I personally don't need a 'thus saith the Lord' to know when something is a revelation, I've received witnesses many times that the Prophet was revealing the Lord's will for us.and what is expounding as in ancient times and as Joseph Smith followed, who boldly teachings us the gospel not cute one line sayings from men.Excuse me? 'Cute line sayings'? Maybe you need to listen with a more humble and less prideful, elitist, judgemental heart and maybe you'll be able to know when the Lord is trying to teach you something. Show me a Revelator like Lehi who was not scared to speak the words from the Lord to the people no matter how the people would take it, vs someone who reads words from a talk that was edited for 6 months by who knows how many people and committees.Their talks are not edited for 6 months and they don't run through any committees. This is a false notion and a very dismissive one, which is unfair. LDS general authorities are not given a topic and their talks are not edited or passed for approval. Frankly, I see boldness in many of the things that are shared. Listen to Pres. Oaks talk from the last General Conference.

Show me a man of God who is not afraid of the arm of flesh like Jerimiah, who boldly declares what commandments we are not following.You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. I think their approach must be different because our society is different. The people won't listen to their leaders in the same way they would 50 years ago--because they are different. I believe they love us and work tirelessly and prayerfully to try to reach our hearts and help the spirit to teach us. Sorry they don't do things the way you think they should, and that doesn't make them wrong.

Show me a prophet who labors himself to sustain himself instead of living off of the people, see 2 Nephi 26:29, 2 Nephi 26:31, Mosiah
18:24, Mosiah 18:26, Mosiah 27:5, Alma 1:26.You sound like Korihor, he accused Alma and Amulek of the same thing. Now your list is sounding just like the rest of the disgruntled dissidents who've left the church and go through their laundry list of complaints against the Lord's anointed servants.
Look, if they call someone to serve full-time in their church calling, the only fair and right thing to do is give them an allowance or living stipend so that they are not a burden on their extended family, having to be supported. Or, the church could only call men who are wealthy and can live off their own money, while they serve. This is one of the more frustrating things that dissidents bring up because it's just so....dumb. Joseph received money from the church, as well as the other leaders at that time-- does that upset you?

In Matt 7:15-20 Jesus teaches us that we shall know prophets by their fruits. Matt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Jesus did not say you shall know their fruits of being a prophet after you believe you believe they are a prophet. On the contrary, Jesus is showing us one important principle of not being deceived. Before you can know that some is the title that they claim to have from God, you must know of their fruits. We must have knowledge of the fruits of the title before we can study it out in our minds before we take it to the Lord for confirmation that the title comes from Him, see D&C 9:8.You are right, we know them by their fruits. I see men who are humble, spiritual, loving and give their lives over to the church--it's no picnic! They are no longer in control of their own lives and they are on stage 24-7, they can never just be people. Their fruits are a testimony of their character.

Many will say just have faith. Let’s not forget the counsel that James gave us in James 2:14-26. Verse 20 is very instructive, “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” What could he be saying there? The last part of verse 18 I believe will help us out, “I will shew thee my faith by my works.” For me it is clear what he is teach hear. Faith is not idling by doing nothing, but going out and doing good works in the name of God. Which also relates to what I am saying up above. What is another word for works? It is fruit. So I ask once again by what fruits are prophet, seers, and revelators known by that I may study out what they have done that I may then go to God and ask for confirmation if they are called of Him and not men, see Matt 7-15-20 and D&C 9:8. Still not convinced? Let’s see what a modern prophet taught, namely the prophet Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith 1:9 “From this we learn … and the principle of action in all intelligent beings.” Joseph Smith says faith is a principle of action, sounds just like what James was saying, work or going out and doing good in the name of God.

Also I believe the BoM prophecies of Brigham Young, you might want to take a look of that also.
https://seekingyhwh.com/2017/07/04/king-brigham/

shadow wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 2:40 pm

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 2:14 pm I do progression can happen if we make it to the highest degree. No exact direct quote then I take it.

22. Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; for the prisoners go free.- Joseph Smith

Why are they in prison? What would cause them to be freed?

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 6th, 2018, 8:17 am LDS church has taught that a prophet needs to say THUS SAITH THE LORD