LDS Freedom Forum

For starters it's in the BoM. In multiple places.

Those who don’t seek the presence of the Lord will be lead into temptations.

3 Nephi 18:25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather HAVE COMMANDED THAT YE SHOULD COME UNTO ME, THAT YE MIGHT FEEL AND SEE; even so shall ye do unto the world; and WHOSOEVER BREAKETH THIS COMMANDMENT SUFFERETH HIMSELF TO BE LED INTO TEMPTATION.

After saying this, Jesus turns to the 12.

3 Nephi 18:26 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he turned his eyes again upon the disciples whom he had chosen, and said unto them:

Have you heard of three different types of baptisms?

Still not sure what your getting at in terms of the ordinances and where / how they can be performed.

What was the point of temples (actual structures) as part of the restoration?

BoM has the fullness of the gospel does it not? And yet it doesn't mention any temple ordnances as necessary.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2018, 3:00 pm BoM has the fullness of the gospel does it not? And yet it doesn't mention any temple ordnances as necessary.

Christ has the fullness of the gospel and that is what he restored to Jospeh Smith. There are lots of things not in the Book of Mormon. (Celestial, Terrestrial, Telestial kingdoms, baptism for the dead, and the list goes on) That is why scripture and prophets go hand in hand in understanding Christ’s work on earth.

Still have no idea what you are alluding to in terms of ordinances and how to receive them?? And what the purpose of temples are in terms of the restoration? Please address those questions if you wouldn’t mind.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2018, 12:21 pm For starters it's in the BoM. In multiple places.

Those who don’t seek the presence of the Lord will be lead into temptations.

3 Nephi 18:25 And ye see that I have commanded that none of you should go away, but rather HAVE COMMANDED THAT YE SHOULD COME UNTO ME, THAT YE MIGHT FEEL AND SEE; even so shall ye do unto the world; and WHOSOEVER BREAKETH THIS COMMANDMENT SUFFERETH HIMSELF TO BE LED INTO TEMPTATION.

After saying this, Jesus turns to the 12.

3 Nephi 18:26 And now it came to pass that when Jesus had spoken these words, he turned his eyes again upon the disciples whom he had chosen, and said unto them:

Temples are also in the Book of Mormon. Nephi builds one.

BoM states we can not repent after we die.

Regarding ordinances, not sure what else to tell you.

Yes temples are in the BoM but if you read the text about the temples they are like the Temple in Jerusalem no temple recommends and not like LDS temples.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2018, 8:21 pm BoM states we can not repent after we die.

Regarding ordinances, not sure what else to tell you.

The Book of Mormon states the atonement is infinite and eternal.

BoM does state the atonement is infinite and eternal, but that does not negate that the BoM says we need a mortal body to repent.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 1st, 2018, 7:44 am I literally do believe that we need to seeks God's face.

I commented that the author of the blog was a literalist. Are you the author?

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2018, 8:21 pm
BoM does state the atonement is infinite and eternal, but that does not negate that the BoM says we need a mortal body to repent.

BoM states we can not repent after we die.

Regarding ordinances, not sure what else to tell you.

You'll need to provide a reference to back up the claim that the 'Book of Mormon states we can not repent after we die' because I know that is false.
Alma 34:32-37 states;

32 For behold, this life is the time for men to prepare to meet God; yea, behold the day of this life is the day for men to perform their labors.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed.

34 Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.

35 For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.

36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.

37 And now, my beloved brethren, I desire that ye should remember these things, and that ye should work out your salvation with fear before God, and that ye should no more deny the coming of Christ;

In his teachings, Alma strongly cautions us not to delay our repentance because we are the same person, with the same thoughts, desires, weaknesses, abilities etc. it is also in this life that we 'perform our labors', such as keeping the commandments, receiving ordinances, loving and serving those around us. Once we are dead, we are not able to perform those labors anymore and so we can't work to make restitution or right wrongs we've committed against others. And it is much harder to repent in the next life when we've ingrained these sins into our character during our mortal life, but he never makes the statement that we are NOT ever able to repent in the next life, we're just not able to perform these labors as we'll be in the spirit world--and spirit prison where the wicked dwell is even more confining.

How do I know that we are capable of repenting in the spirit world? The vision of Peter, which an LDS prophet also saw, proves that the wicked and disobedient spirits are capable and are given the opportunity to repent, otherwise, there would be no reason to teach them, as is shown to have happened (and is happening at this very time in the spirit world) in Doctrine and Covenants 138.

Joseph F. Smith was pondering 1 Peter 4:6 and was able to see what Peter saw and share further understanding with us. The vision he had and the doctrines it supported are part of our canon of belief.

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison, who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

33 These were taught faith in God, repentance from sin, vicarious baptism for the remission of sins, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands,

34 And all other principles of the gospel that were necessary for them to know in order to qualify themselves that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

35 And so it was made known among the dead, both small and great, the unrighteous as well as the faithful, that redemption had been wrought through the sacrifice of the Son of God upon the cross.

So, there we have definitive proof that it is a doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that those in the spirit world are capable of repenting, though as Alma points out and wanted to emphasize, it is much more difficult, but they are given the opportunity to take advantage of the infinite and eternal atonement wrought by our Savior for all who repent and call upon his name in faith. To make the statement that the Book of Mormon teaches otherwise is a misreading of scripture.

Also, vicarious ordinances are offered for those who repent in the next life and accept the Atonement. See D&C 138:33.

Isn't continuing revelation through a true prophet of God, a marvelous blessing? Yes, it is. Alma may not have had the same understanding of what Peter and Joseph F. Smith saw, and so, it is such a blessing that we can receive further understanding and are able to understand these teachings in their fullness. That is the value of having the LDS canon of scripture and of having living Prophets.

Alma 34:32-37 is a good example of saying we need to repent before we die.

I believe in continuing revelation, just not new revelation that contradicts previous revelation.

"There have also been ministering angels in the church which were of satan appearing as an angel of light:— A sister in the State of New York had a vision who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods an angel would appear to her,— she went at the appointed time and saw a glorious personage descending arrayed in white ... he commenced and told her to fear God and said that her husband was called to do great things, but that he must not go more than one hundred miles from home or he would not return; whereas God had called him to go to the ends of the earth; and he has since been more than one thousand miles from home, and is yet alive. Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false.—How it may be asked was this known to be a bad angel? ... by his contradicting a former revelation.
(Times and Seasons 3 [April 1, 1842]: 747)"

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 2nd, 2018, 3:00 pm BoM has the fullness of the gospel does it not? And yet it doesn't mention any temple ordnances as necessary.

In your view, do you think it's possible for an active, temple attending member to see the Lord's face?

In my view anyone seeking Jesus Christ can see his face. I've come across many stories from all types of religious faiths who have been visited by Jesus Christ and then converted to him.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 8:12 am In my view anyone seeking Jesus Christ can see his face. I've come across many stories from all types of religious faiths who have been visited by Jesus Christ and then converted to him.

From what you've said, it sounds like you don't think Temples are needed.

How do you explain this statement by Joseph Smith (you do still accept his teachings, don't you?) :

"If a man gets the fulness of God he has to get (it) in the same way that Jesus Christ obtain(ed) it and that was by keeping all the ordinances of the house of the Lord. (Words of Joseph Smith, p 213)


From Joseph's statement, the Temple ordinances are necessary, yet you seem to dismiss their necessity.

So in your view, what's the purpose for the Temple and the ordinances we receive there?

How do you explain JS seeing God without having a temple?

Not everything in that book are direct quotes from JS. There is much in that book that people claimed to remember JS saying.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 3rd, 2018, 7:49 pm Alma 34:32-37 is a good example of saying we need to repent before we die.

I believe in continuing revelation, just not new revelation that contradicts previous revelation.

"There have also been ministering angels in the church which were of satan appearing as an angel of light:— A sister in the State of New York had a vision who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods an angel would appear to her,— she went at the appointed time and saw a glorious personage descending arrayed in white ... he commenced and told her to fear God and said that her husband was called to do great things, but that he must not go more than one hundred miles from home or he would not return; whereas God had called him to go to the ends of the earth; and he has since been more than one thousand miles from home, and is yet alive. Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false.—How it may be asked was this known to be a bad angel? ... by his contradicting a former revelation.
(Times and Seasons 3 [April 1, 1842]: 747)"

If you reject anything that is different from previous revelation, then you reject continuing revelation and living prophets--a fundamental principle of the gospel. I've never understood so-called LDS members who claim to believe the church but want the church to remain the same as it was in 1830. Change through continuing revelation and a prophet to lead and guide us is the whole point of having a LIVING prophet who receives revelation from God--if the church remains static and never changes, then that means there is no new revelation. Also, you must expect that some revelation is not going to please you--it will try your faith, especially if you are the type who balks at change.

I asked if you were the author of the blog and you didn't respond. Are you the author?

I reject new revelation that contradicts what the scriptures already teach.

"There have also been ministering angels in the church which were of satan appearing as an angel of light:— A sister in the State of New York had a vision who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods an angel would appear to her,— she went at the appointed time and saw a glorious personage descending arrayed in white ... he commenced and told her to fear God and said that her husband was called to do great things, but that he must not go more than one hundred miles from home or he would not return; whereas God had called him to go to the ends of the earth; and he has since been more than one thousand miles from home, and is yet alive. Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false.—How it may be asked was this known to be a bad angel? ... by his contradicting a former revelation.
(Times and Seasons 3 [April 1, 1842]: 747)"

If I missed answering you if I'm the author I'm sorry, did not mean to do that, I am the author. What does that matter?

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 10:14 am How do you explain JS seeing God without having a temple?

Not everything in that book are direct quotes from JS. There is much in that book that people claimed to remember JS saying.

That's not a concern since the quote is completely in line with what Joseph Smith knew of the importance of having a temple--the Doctrine and Covenants has many revelations which emphasize the need for the Saints to build a temple.

The answer to your question is simple and I believe several people already answered it for you--the article you dissed answered it. Joseph Smith prayed to God in 1820 in a grove of trees. Mountains and forests have always been able to serve as sacred places of refuge to commune with God when there has been no temple on the earth or available. And in 1820, where was the Lord's temple? There was none on the earth, the Temple was not built yet--The Lord told Joseph when he commanded a temple to be built that He had 'no place to lay his head'--and he told them a temple would be necessary for him to continue to reveal new truths and bless his people.

That's why it's so tragic that some members of the church, who had access to a temple have cut themselves off from it. It would not surprise me if people who make that choice to break temple covenants, resign their right to enter the temple--may then be kept from TRULY seeing the Lord, except when they are willing to humble themselves and return to his temple and follow his true gospel and his true servants.

So you believe the requirements to see God changes? I don't.

Alma 7:20 I perceive that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he cannot walk in crooked paths; NEITHER DOTH HE VARY FROM THAT WHICH HE HATH SAID; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal round.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 3rd, 2018, 7:49 pm Alma 34:32-37 is a good example of saying we need to repent before we die.

I believe in continuing revelation, just not new revelation that contradicts previous revelation.

It helps to first understand what previous revelation actually means. But I gather that your interpretation of scripture is contrary to section 138 and the Bible.

7 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

8 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

9 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.” (1 Peter 3:18–20.)

Why would there be a need at all to preach to the disobedient who no longer have mortal bodies? It's because the atonement of Christ is actually and literally infinite and eternal, not just infinite and eternal so long as you have a mortal body.
Since you can't answer the question and deflect it to being translated incorrectly, which it wasn't, I'll help you out-

22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.

35 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.

19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

73 And also they who are the spirits of men kept in prison, whom the Son visited, and preached the gospel unto them, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh;

99 And after this another angel shall sound, which is the second trump; and then cometh the redemption of those who are Christ’s at his coming; who have received their part in that prison which is prepared for them, that they might receive the gospel, and be judged according to men in the flesh.

57 And as many of the spirits as were in prison came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remainder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day.

BoM says we are to repent in this life. Believe that or not, that is up to you.

Alma 40:14 Now this is the state of the souls of the wicked, yea, in darkness, and a state of awful, fearful looking for the fiery indignation of the wrath of God upon them; thus they remain in this state, as well as the righteous in paradise, until the time of their resurrection.

SJR3t2 wrote: ↑January 4th, 2018, 10:22 am I reject new revelation that contradicts what the scriptures already teach.

"There have also been ministering angels in the church which were of satan appearing as an angel of light:— A sister in the State of New York had a vision who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods an angel would appear to her,— she went at the appointed time and saw a glorious personage descending arrayed in white ... he commenced and told her to fear God and said that her husband was called to do great things, but that he must not go more than one hundred miles from home or he would not return; whereas God had called him to go to the ends of the earth; and he has since been more than one thousand miles from home, and is yet alive. Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false.—How it may be asked was this known to be a bad angel? ... by his contradicting a former revelation.
(Times and Seasons 3 [April 1, 1842]: 747)"

I know why you reject revelation that you think contradicts scriptures--the Fundamentalists think the same way as you...and look where it's gotten them. They reject the blessing God has given in having a living Prophet to lead and guide them, they miss so much God has to offer, but that's their choice.

If I missed answering you if I'm the author I'm sorry, did not mean to do that, I am the author. What does that matter?

It matters if you are the author because now I know how to put your answers in context. You resigned your church membership so you've rejected living Prophets, continuing revelation and cut yourself off from the Temple. Of course you don't think you need a temple and that matters to the context of this discussion as well your interpretation of scriptures shared here.

I will say, I think it's a tragedy that you did that, but every one has their agency and they choose for themselves. I also enjoyed reading some of your other blog postings, which were interesting, Thanks.

Regarding rejecting living prophets, where have your so called prophets prophesied, boldly claimed they have seen Jesus face to face, translated an ancient record, or revealed something new? We are to know prophets by their fruits, not know their fruits after we believe they are prophets.

“When you bear testimony that you have seen God. … Never cease striving until you have seen God face to face. … Your ordination is not full and complete till God has laid His hand upon you.” Oliver Cowdery DHC 2:195-196

I am glad you like some of the blog posts. We may not agree on everything, but perhaps in some areas we can help each other learn.

https://seekingyhwh.com/2015/10/04/in-h ... yesterday/