Mike Stroud Reeled in by the church

[watchthewatchers]

It could be that he had an Oh crap! epiphony as he watched Snuffer loosing his steam, so Mike jumped ship before the whole thing Titanics.

[XEmilyX]

I thought his podcasts were great. It really helped me understand things in a different way that makes better sense. I downloaded all of his podcasts. I wish he could keep going.

[TrueIntent]

There is also this blog post on Mike Stroud: MIKE STROUD'S PODCASTS ARE DOWN
From the comments:

After talking with Mike and getting the "rest of the story" surrounding his need to pull his podcasts, spend more time with his family and his latest podcast that he his humbled by the brethren who he has been in contact with concerning his podcasts, the dust has settled and we have a clear path what changes will be made.

1. Mike was called in because of another individual who had been called in and clarification was needed about the origins of his podcasts. Mike is not under any disciplinary councils or the main subject of the other individual. Mike was given the counsel to remove some content that may or may not be appropriate for a podcast situation.

2. Those changes will be made in subsequent books (#4 is being released in the next two months).

3. I will be "hosting" a list of podcasts for download on nofearpreps.com (audio section) that will not include Calling & Election, Second Comforter podcasts.

4. Mike will not be leaving our community, but taking a lesser role in sharing information in the future. We are still on track to finish all his books.

Well now I want to hear what he was asked to remove...anytime someone withholds information that is not appropriate or too sacred for the masses, I think of the scribes and Pharisees that withheld information.. or all the sacred texts of the Bible that were altered or hidden, or not allowed to be read by anyone but clergy...information should be free to access...can't he just put a disclaimer "not approved by lds church" like everyone else does. ......it's because he's gaining a following of members (not his fault...lots of people teach stuff, his just must be good) ...that means people want meat. It's when you gain a following.

All the brethren have to do is give meat. That's the thing that is bugging me the most about the church right now...they keep claiming they aren't trying to control the flow of information but they are..every basic search in religion in google, an LDS website pops up, we are paying big money to be first in the search engines on google..then defenders of the church say, well they do it because they don't want members to be lead astray, or they aren't ready...but since when do grown adults not get to make their own decisions or does dog not want go to him directly ..but if what a person teaches they believe it to be true, and they are acting with real intent...they should teach it. Let people see a false teacher debate a true one...but most of these people just genuinely believe what they teach and have a genuine desire to share it. the funny thing is, anytime the brethren say, tone down your teaching...I say what is the teaching....so now I'm like, let me here what this mike guy has to say.

Also, I just in the last year read a book about the history of Free Masonry. The higher up in the ranks you get, you realize the withholding of information is about gaining and keeping the lower ranking following. You realize the truths that are taught at the top are simple universal truths that were always available to be accessed, and they were suppposed to be available to the poor in spirit so that they could be healed. As the church teaches, sacred does not mean secret...right?

so what topics specifically was Mike teaching that they disagree with.......?

[TrueIntent]

I was listening to his last podcast (the one posted above this thread) and I guess he was apologizing what he said in the past regarding certain topics. I did not listen to any of those podcasts but from what I got from the podcast above.. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging others to receive their calling and election - building alters etc. I have been thinking of building a room for that purpose. We should always have a spot in our home to have our personal quietness/holiness/prayer room. A room that is pure and clean. A room just for those in the family and outside of the world. That's my personal feeling. Whether he's teaching Snuffer doctrine - IDK. Like I said, I didn't hear those podcasts.

I think that there is a clear difference between having a room for quietness and performing temple ordinances home.
I haven't listening to Stroud's podcast, so I don't know what he has specifically said. However, the temple ordinances and seeking ordinations outside proper channels sounds pretty apostate to me. Doing blessings over phone is just weird, there shouldn't be any need for that if the home teachers did their duty. There are some true teachings about calling and election, 144000, and the Church of Firstborn, but those are also topics that the splinter groups frequently twist to suit their own agendas, that is why one should be careful about what one says about them.

Anyway, I am glad that Mike Stroud was humble. I liked his testimony of the fact that Lord directs the church.

Matthew 8:8

The Jewish temple anciently was symbolic of the human body...the holy of Holies is the heart....hence...know ye not that you are a temple of god. Our homes can and should be our consecrated space...it would be nice if the temple was that...but yes...ordinances can be "performed" at home....what do you think the sacrament represents? That ordinance of the sacrament is a symbol for an event that occurs over and over in scripture...all the ancient prophets and apostles partook of the "sacrament". The bread and water is just the symbol. Blessings over the phone....sometimes apostles would give someone a hanker chief to heal someone...just because it had touched them it had healing properties.....Joseph smith did the same thing. Jesus healed people at his "word" only. This is an example of culture ruling the behavior of members instead of scripture.....and just because someone "holds" the priesthood doesn't mean they can access the "power" of the priesthood. If a home teacher holds an officer but can't access the power an individual should go to people that can....this is why people sought out Christ instead of the leadership at the time....they all held the office, he accessed the power. His apostles eventually were able to access the power and performed miracles too.

[harakim]

I was listening to his last podcast (the one posted above this thread) and I guess he was apologizing what he said in the past regarding certain topics. I did not listen to any of those podcasts but from what I got from the podcast above.. I personally don't think there's anything wrong with encouraging others to receive their calling and election - building alters etc. I have been thinking of building a room for that purpose. We should always have a spot in our home to have our personal quietness/holiness/prayer room. A room that is pure and clean. A room just for those in the family and outside of the world. That's my personal feeling. Whether he's teaching Snuffer doctrine - IDK. Like I said, I didn't hear those podcasts.

I think that there is a clear difference between having a room for quietness and performing temple ordinances home.
I haven't listening to Stroud's podcast, so I don't know what he has specifically said. However, the temple ordinances and seeking ordinations outside proper channels sounds pretty apostate to me. Doing blessings over phone is just weird, there shouldn't be any need for that if the home teachers did their duty. There are some true teachings about calling and election, 144000, and the Church of Firstborn, but those are also topics that the splinter groups frequently twist to suit their own agendas, that is why one should be careful about what one says about them.

Anyway, I am glad that Mike Stroud was humble. I liked his testimony of the fact that Lord directs the church.

Matthew 8:8

The Jewish temple anciently was symbolic of the human body...the holy of Holies is the heart....hence...know ye not that you are a temple of god. Our homes can and should be our consecrated space...it would be nice if the temple was that...but yes...ordinances can be "performed" at home....what do you think the sacrament represents? That ordinance of the sacrament is a symbol for an event that occurs over and over in scripture...all the ancient prophets and apostles partook of the "sacrament". The bread and water is just the symbol. Blessings over the phone....sometimes apostles would give someone a hanker chief to heal someone...just because it had touched them it had healing properties.....Joseph smith did the same thing. Jesus healed people at his "word" only. This is an example of culture ruling the behavior of members instead of scripture.....and just because someone "holds" the priesthood doesn't mean they can access the "power" of the priesthood. If a home teacher holds an office but can't access the power an individual should go to people that can....this is why people sought out Christ instead of the leadership at the time....they all held the office, he accessed the power. His apostles eventually were able to access the power and performed miracles too.

I was referring to Jesus' remotely performed blessings. Blessings over the phone makes sense.

[brianj]

It could be that he had an Oh crap! epiphony as he watched Snuffer loosing his steam, so Mike jumped ship before the whole thing Titanics.

I think the Bismarck is a better metaphor than the Titanic.

[h_p]

so what topics specifically was Mike teaching that they disagree with.......?

Inho posted the specifics from his latest podcast transcription above, as to what he said he shouldn't have taught. I think the podcasts are still available on that site he linked to if you want to download them and listen.

[TrueIntent]

>Mike Stroud has been counseled and talked to by the church, has admitted a list of inappropriate teachings,

Looks like the podcast was taken down before I could hear it. What was the list of teachings he admitted were inappropriate?

There have been times when I have not followed the revelatory counsel given in Doctrine and Covenants 63:64 and I have taught and said things that were outside of the protective umbrella of priesthood keys and inspired direction. It was inappropriate for me to teach:

• That person should seek to be translated or seek and ordinance of translation and become members of the 144,000 spoken of in scripture.
• That temple ordinances, specifically the use of alters should be practiced outside of the temple
• That the Church of Latter-day Saints is Aaronic in nature and preparatory to the Melchizedec Priesthood institution referred to in scripture as the Church of the Firstborn.
• That people should seek Priesthood ordinations outside of the ordained channels found within the Church.
• That priesthood healings and ordinances should be practiced using prescribed format and that they can be performed over the phone.

You can find the podcast here as mp3 or pdf-transcript.

Questions....Adam built an altar outside the temple....so did Levi, .....Jospeh smith taught that the temple endowment was for the 144,000 who would come forth in the last days.....so shouldn't we be seeking that ordinance???? His understanding of the church being Aaronic in nature is my understanding as well.....I got this from passages of the Joseph smith translation in genesis in d&c....the scritptures teach that God can ordain anyone he wants to the priesthood...it doesn't come through a church it comes through him (the church is merely an instituted pattern of how a Zion type society might function, they administer ordinances which are patterns, not Power). According to the scriptures...Christ healed people who weren't even in his presence...at his word alone, so I would argue...a phone call would work for someone like jesus who doesn't just have authority...but also possesses power....at his word, healing or blessings are done..

So why was he asked not to teach this stuff? ...it seems in Line with scripture and the teachings of Joseph smith, and Mormonism.

[TrueIntent]

As for d&c 63:64
64 Remember that that which cometh from above is sacred, and must be spoken with care, and by constraint of the Spirit; and in this there is no condemnation, and ye receive the Spirit through prayer; wherefore, without this there remaineth condemnation.

Read the verses just prior and Look up ""authority" in the topical guide and every single scripture says authority is coming from God not the leadership or brethren.....that's a stretch for them to use this scripture and say that he can't teach.....based on this interpretation, NOBODY should be writing any commentary or attempting to interpret any scripture on there own.....it also says you receive the spirit by prayer


Also in that same chapter the Lord condemns Sydney rigdon and says his writing is no longer acceptable to him,...if that can apply to Sidney it can also apply to the current 12.

[Ahometheaterguy]

From brother Strouds book "Highly Favored of the Lord"; page 127, third paragraph I quote his words out of context:" In my opinion, this is Mike Stroud". This phrase and the fact that this books do not have the official Church logo on the back makes me want to stick to the general authorities, and scriptures to gain knowledge.

[TCF]

I know Mike Stroud, I came to know him some time before his mission ended in NJ. This was right before he started his podcast. First I’d say Mike is a great man and he sustains the brethren of the church. From my perspective he had no intentions of misleading or doing anything the church would not support. He was a great teacher and his teaching abilities bless many people. I don’t recall him ever teaching any false doctrine and when he shared his opinion he often stated it was just his opinion. He did teach some deap doctrines that might of been appropriate to the group originally listening to his podcast but not appropriate for the larger audience that gathered. For this reason and the fact that similar situations have really led people
Astray the church wisely puts a stop to them. In my opinion you can get similar information and knowledge by attending your local institute classes.

Mike’s response seems to be one of humility and shows the respect he has for Christ’s church and it’s leaders. I respect him for taking the council from his leaders if that’s what he has done.

[Rand]

I know Mike Stroud, I came to know him some time before his mission ended in NJ. This was right before he started his podcast. First I’d say Mike is a great man and he sustains the brethren of the church. From my perspective he had no intentions of misleading or doing anything the church would not support. He was a great teacher and his teaching abilities bless many people. I don’t recall him ever teaching any false doctrine and when he shared his opinion he often stated it was just his opinion. He did teach some deap doctrines that might of been appropriate to the group originally listening to his podcast but not appropriate for the larger audience that gathered. For this reason and the fact that similar situations have really led people
Astray the church wisely puts a stop to them. In my opinion you can get similar information and knowledge by attending your local institute classes.

Mike’s response seems to be one of humility and shows the respect he has for Christ’s church and it’s leaders. I respect him for taking the council from his leaders if that’s what he has done.

Agreed! I appreciate his response to the chastening. A sign of a good man.

[RBD]

I’m an energy worker who has a dad who served as a bishop and has always supported energy work and I have visited with my current bishop and he supports me as well. But in my energy work community, many people talked about his podcasts so I decided to check it out. From the beginning, his content was almost truth, but not quite. I never felt the Spirit. I was appalled that people were so supportive of him and his content.

Some people asked what topics were false and here are a couple that I know of and deeply searched truth from doctrinal sources about. But I have only listened to a small portion of them, so I don’t even know about his calling and election, 144,000, etc. topics that others on the thread are concerned about. And they do seem incredibly concerning especially the one about ordinances being preformed in the home or over the phone. Not sure if that’s really true, but that’s definitely concerning.

The topics I have been turned off by because of the false doctrine taught in them have been:

1) Him saying that the light of Christ is what we have been promised to always have with us in the sacramental prayer and not the Holy Ghost. I’m really surprised this has been such a popular one in my circles because it’s so easily debunked. There’s nothing that can separate us from the light of Christ, so why would that be a promise made from God to us? It’s just not logical.

2) That spiritual gifts are something that all people have access to, when it’s extremely clear that doctrinally only people who have been confirmed with the gift of the Holy Ghost have access to spiritual gifts.

3) That the gift of the Holy Ghost was not something given to us AT confirmation and that it’s something that we have to work really hard at to receive and most members are walking around WITHOUT the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The thing that’s most concerning to me is that in one of his last podcasts, he admitted that he had shared some things that were not in alignment with the Brethren. And he just shrugged his shoulders at it. The podcast was entiteled “Tying up Loose Ends”.

I’m surprised that he’s starting to do podcasts again and I was really surprised that his podcast that talks about the light of Christ and the sacrament that he did years ago is back up on his podcasts.

This is how God’s elect is to be led astray, by people who seem like they can be trusted like former CES teachers.

We have to stay close to the Holy Ghost and Brethren.

[I AM]

Honestly I don’t know Mike Stroud, but he seems like a humble man. Sounds like he was teaching some unfounded or misapplied philosophies and was willing to set them aside.

------------------

more like - he was hitting a little too close to home by bring out the truth of really where the church is - in apostasy.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the @#$ its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

[I AM]

I've exchanged a few emails with him quite some time ago .
He is a very knowledgeable humble man who loves the gospel -
and also the truth.

[nightlight]

I liked his talks

[Kingdom of ZION]

I’m an energy worker who has a dad who served as a bishop and has always supported energy work and I have visited with my current bishop and he supports me as well. But in my energy work community, many people talked about his podcasts so I decided to check it out. From the beginning, his content was almost truth, but not quite. I never felt the Spirit. I was appalled that people were so supportive of him and his content.

Some people asked what topics were false and here are a couple that I know of and deeply searched truth from doctrinal sources about. But I have only listened to a small portion of them, so I don’t even know about his calling and election, 144,000, etc. topics that others on the thread are concerned about. And they do seem incredibly concerning especially the one about ordinances being preformed in the home or over the phone. Not sure if that’s really true, but that’s definitely concerning.

The topics I have been turned off by because of the false doctrine taught in them have been:

1) Him saying that the light of Christ is what we have been promised to always have with us in the sacramental prayer and not the Holy Ghost. I’m really surprised this has been such a popular one in my circles because it’s so easily debunked. There’s nothing that can separate us from the light of Christ, so why would that be a promise made from God to us? It’s just not logical.

2) That spiritual gifts are something that all people have access to, when it’s extremely clear that doctrinally only people who have been confirmed with the gift of the Holy Ghost have access to spiritual gifts.

3) That the gift of the Holy Ghost was not something given to us AT confirmation and that it’s something that we have to work really hard at to receive and most members are walking around WITHOUT the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The thing that’s most concerning to me is that in one of his last podcasts, he admitted that he had shared some things that were not in alignment with the Brethren. And he just shrugged his shoulders at it. The podcast was entiteled “Tying up Loose Ends”.

I’m surprised that he’s starting to do podcasts again and I was really surprised that his podcast that talks about the light of Christ and the sacrament that he did years ago is back up on his podcasts.

This is how God’s elect is to be led astray, by people who seem like they can be trusted like former CES teachers.

We have to stay close to the Holy Ghost and Brethren.

There are many who would say the very same thing about Energy Work / Muscle Testing. And it really does not matter who approves you doing so, it does not make it correct principle or true. It is not found in the scriptures and is a counterfeit for true faith, the spirit and Priesthood. I have seen many who were also appalled that people were so supportive of such practices.

Some people asked about this topics Energy healing, whether it is false and here are a couple of things that I know of and have deeply searched truth from doctrinal sources about. We have example of Joseph Smith blessing a handy and sending it unto the sick and they were made well. That just by a believing person of faith, the touching of the Messiah's rob, brought healing. I have only listened to a small portion of these examples or healings by prayer, fasting, and faith, so I don’t even know about every person who has preformed such miracles, etc. but there are others who have done much, even in our day, such as Iohani Otto Melila Wolfgramm, born: January 20, 1911 and Died: September 16, 1997. It was claimed that he once raised the dead and healed many many people by priesthood/faith. I have a good friend who's brother I meet and worked for, for one summer. He was healed over the phone by taking to Iohani. I have been in Iohani home and visited with him a few years before his death, so it is not just a hear-say story. You might be equally concerned about such claims. And they do seem incredible concerning especially that one without a calling does such ordinances being preformed in his home or over the phone. You might also claim, not sure if that’s really true, but that’s definitely concerning.

If I lived in a glass house and wanted people to take my faith or deeds serious, presuming you have such... I would not through stones at others who are doing equally different and non-conventional things. There are many who also claim energy working is not of G_d, and is a path to being ensnared by the deceptions of the adversary.

[GrandMasterB]

I’m an energy worker who has a dad who served as a bishop and has always supported energy work and I have visited with my current bishop and he supports me as well. But in my energy work community, many people talked about his podcasts so I decided to check it out. From the beginning, his content was almost truth, but not quite. I never felt the Spirit. I was appalled that people were so supportive of him and his content.

Some people asked what topics were false and here are a couple that I know of and deeply searched truth from doctrinal sources about. But I have only listened to a small portion of them, so I don’t even know about his calling and election, 144,000, etc. topics that others on the thread are concerned about. And they do seem incredibly concerning especially the one about ordinances being preformed in the home or over the phone. Not sure if that’s really true, but that’s definitely concerning.

The topics I have been turned off by because of the false doctrine taught in them have been:

1) Him saying that the light of Christ is what we have been promised to always have with us in the sacramental prayer and not the Holy Ghost. I’m really surprised this has been such a popular one in my circles because it’s so easily debunked. There’s nothing that can separate us from the light of Christ, so why would that be a promise made from God to us? It’s just not logical.

2) That spiritual gifts are something that all people have access to, when it’s extremely clear that doctrinally only people who have been confirmed with the gift of the Holy Ghost have access to spiritual gifts.

3) That the gift of the Holy Ghost was not something given to us AT confirmation and that it’s something that we have to work really hard at to receive and most members are walking around WITHOUT the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The thing that’s most concerning to me is that in one of his last podcasts, he admitted that he had shared some things that were not in alignment with the Brethren. And he just shrugged his shoulders at it. The podcast was entiteled “Tying up Loose Ends”.

I’m surprised that he’s starting to do podcasts again and I was really surprised that his podcast that talks about the light of Christ and the sacrament that he did years ago is back up on his podcasts.

This is how God’s elect is to be led astray, by people who seem like they can be trusted like former CES teachers.

We have to stay close to the Holy Ghost and Brethren.

I should have stopped reading at “I am an energy worker” but alas I am weak. I know what or who inspires energy work and it ain’t the Holy Ghost my friend. With that said, I listened to all of Mike’s original podcasts. You have taken everything out of context and twisted some things he discussed. He was very clear when he had opinions and never to my knowledge taught any of his opinions as gospel truth. Leaders within the church did counsel him and asked that he pull some of the things he shared his opinions on. People were getting all bent out of shape because someone dared to reach for the furthest branches of the gospel. That is why he was asked to pull it. If people are scared about what Mike shares then if they don’t strengthen their testimonies fast it won’t sustain them when the actual false teachers and deceives come among them. BTW. I didn’t embrace all of Mike’s “opinions”, but still enjoyed hearing his perspective.

[Maroriginal1]

I too listened to all his original podcasts. The depth of gospel knowledge he has is impressive. I learned a lot and found a new desire to study many topics on my own. As podcasts progressed little red flags came out here and there as he excercused his opinion more. I’m not saying it was all incorrect. But it missed the mark of us gaining testimonies for ourselves line upon line. I was done once he openly campaigned his efforts to become part of the 44 hundred. It is one thing to share opinions. It’s another to cast your pearls before swine. The internet is no respecter of persons. However, anybody in the church can post an opinion, write a blog, book, or video. There is no church police to reign everybody in. What we sift through today is what I imagine the council in heaven to be. Many beliefs and ideas being shared. We have to have the power to discern. I don’t take pleasure in slapping down others when their opinions go astray. Rather I love the counsel of Pres Hinkley to learn from the good of others. I truly learned much good from Brother Stroud, but he takes no ownership of my testimony.

[Rand]

more like - he was hitting a little too close to home by bring out the truth of really where the church is - in apostasy.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

Who ascribes Isaiah's writing to the modern Church?
Isaiah specifically says he is referring to Judah.
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
Your saying it applies to the modern LDS Church may be only your opinion, not fact, as you assert it to be. Personally, I don't think you are right in your application of it.
We can all repent and be better. Not saying the whole church is as righteous as it needs to be. But it seems to me you are saying you are righteous and the brethren and the body of the church are off base.

[John Tavner]

more like - he was hitting a little too close to home by bring out the truth of really where the church is - in apostasy.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

Who ascribes Isaiah's writing to the modern Church?
Isaiah specifically says he is referring to Judah.
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
Your saying it applies to the modern LDS Church may be only your opinion, not fact, as you assert it to be. Personally, I don't think you are right in your application of it.
We can all repent and be better. Not saying the whole church is as righteous as it needs to be. But it seems to me you are saying you are righteous and the brethren and the body of the church are off base.

I think Jesus did in 3 Neph 23

1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.

2 For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.

3 And all things that he spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake.

4 Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you; and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles.

5 And whosoever will hearken unto my words and repenteth and is baptized, the same shall be saved. Search the prophets, for many there be that testify of these things....
Chapter 22 is talking about the last days and how His words apply to us.

[drtanner]

more like - he was hitting a little too close to home by bring out the truth of really where the church is - in apostasy.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

Who ascribes Isaiah's writing to the modern Church?
Isaiah specifically says he is referring to Judah.
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
Your saying it applies to the modern LDS Church may be only your opinion, not fact, as you assert it to be. Personally, I don't think you are right in your application of it.
We can all repent and be better. Not saying the whole church is as righteous as it needs to be. But it seems to me you are saying you are righteous and the brethren and the body of the church are off base.

I think Jesus did in 3 Neph 23

1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.

2 For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.

3 And all things that he spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake.

4 Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you; and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles.

5 And whosoever will hearken unto my words and repenteth and is baptized, the same shall be saved. Search the prophets, for many there be that testify of these things....
Chapter 22 is talking about the last days and how His words apply to us.

The ambiguity is in the interpretation of gentile and how much and what is ascribed to the current church members, leaders, or generalized to the people of this country. That seems to be the crux of the issues with so many on this forum.

[Rand]

more like - he was hitting a little too close to home by bring out the truth of really where the church is - in apostasy.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

Who ascribes Isaiah's writing to the modern Church?
Isaiah specifically says he is referring to Judah.
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
Your saying it applies to the modern LDS Church may be only your opinion, not fact, as you assert it to be. Personally, I don't think you are right in your application of it.
We can all repent and be better. Not saying the whole church is as righteous as it needs to be. But it seems to me you are saying you are righteous and the brethren and the body of the church are off base.

I think Jesus did in 3 Neph 23

1 And now, behold, I say unto you, that ye ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give unto you that ye search these things diligently; for great are the words of Isaiah.

2 For surely he spake as touching all things concerning my people which are of the house of Israel; therefore it must needs be that he must speak also to the Gentiles.

3 And all things that he spake have been and shall be, even according to the words which he spake.

4 Therefore give heed to my words; write the things which I have told you; and according to the time and the will of the Father they shall go forth unto the Gentiles.

5 And whosoever will hearken unto my words and repenteth and is baptized, the same shall be saved. Search the prophets, for many there be that testify of these things....
Chapter 22 is talking about the last days and how His words apply to us.

The ambiguity is in the interpretation of gentile and how much and what is ascribed to the current church members, leaders, or generalized to the people of this country. That seems to be the crux of the issues with so many on this forum.

Agreed. It serves an apparent agenda to isolate the interpretation to the current church organization, rather than the country as a whole etc. Seems like an agenda serving interpretation.

[I AM]

more like - he was hitting a little too close to home by bring out the truth of really where the church is - in apostasy.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

Who ascribes Isaiah's writing to the modern Church?
Isaiah specifically says he is referring to Judah.
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
Your saying it applies to the modern LDS Church may be only your opinion, not fact, as you assert it to be. Personally, I don't think you are right in your application of it.
We can all repent and be better. Not saying the whole church is as righteous as it needs to be. But it seems to me you are saying you are righteous and the brethren and the body of the church are off base.

--------------------

I am saying I am righteous ?
How does quoting Isaiah say that I am righteous ?
It's what Isaiah' is saying, not me.
And YES, Isaiah, along with the words of Jesus Christ and prophets in the Book of Mormon,
not only say that the church is off base, but in apostasy.
I could quote pages of scriptures (which I have already done in this forum) showing this.
Look up some of my posts and comments.
The first 3 chapters of Isaiah bring out the major sins of the people and of the church.

Isaiah has now been unsealed and brought
to light by the Lord for our understanding in these last days.

Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah uses what are called types from the past to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.
ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/

Here is one you might want to read taking about the church - "the drunkards of Ephraim! "

Isaiah 28
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

Now if the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

[Rand]

more like - he was hitting a little too close to home by bring out the truth of really where the church is - in apostasy.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.

Who ascribes Isaiah's writing to the modern Church?
Isaiah specifically says he is referring to Judah.
1 The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah."
Your saying it applies to the modern LDS Church may be only your opinion, not fact, as you assert it to be. Personally, I don't think you are right in your application of it.
We can all repent and be better. Not saying the whole church is as righteous as it needs to be. But it seems to me you are saying you are righteous and the brethren and the body of the church are off base.

--------------------

I am saying I am righteous ?
How does quoting Isaiah say that I am righteous ?
It's what Isaiah' is saying, not me.
And YES, Isaiah, along with the words of Jesus Christ and prophets in the Book of Mormon,
not only say that the church is off base, but in apostasy.
I could quote pages of scriptures (which I have already done in this forum) showing this.
Look up some of my posts and comments.
The first 3 chapters of Isaiah bring out the major sins of the people and of the church.

Isaiah has now been unsealed and brought
to light by the Lord for our understanding in these last days.

Isaiah 44:7
7 "Who predicts what happens as do I, and is the equal of me in
appointing a people from of old as types, foretelling things to come?

Isaiah uses what are called types from the past to show the future.
What has happened before, will happen again.
ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/

Here is one you might want to read taking about the church - "the drunkards of Ephraim! "

Isaiah 28
http://www.isaiahexplained.com/28#commentary

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

Now if the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

To me, you quote Isaiah according to your own interpretation that seems to condemn almost everyone else. So, you are setting yourself up as better than everyone else, or almost everyone else.
I was just reading in TPJS and read this:
"Do Not Betray the Brethren
O ye Twelve! and all Saints! profit by this important Key—that in all your trials, troubles, temptations, afflictions, bonds, imprisonments and death, see to it, that you do not betray heaven; that you do not betray Jesus Christ; that you do not betray the brethren; that you do not betray the revelations of God, whether in the Bible, Book of Mormon, or Doctrine and Covenants, or any other that ever was or ever will be given and revealed unto man in this world or that which is to come. Yea, in all your kicking and flounderings, see to it that you do not this thing, lest innocent blood be found upon your skirts, and you go down to hell. All other sins are not to be compared to sinning against the Holy Ghost, and proving a traitor to the brethren.

A Key to Mysteries
I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives. The principle is as correct as the one that Jesus put forth in saying that he who seeketh a sign is an adulterous person; and that principle is eternal, undeviating, and firm as the pillars of heaven; for whenever you see a man seeking after a sign, you may set it down that he is an adulterous man."

Uhm, it sounds to me like you are doing just this. Maybe I am wrong and misunderstand you. If that is so, I apologize. But, I don't think I do.