LDS Freedom Forum

The one shepherd over Israel in those scriptures is the same David that Joseph Smith said would inherit the throne and kingdom of David. We all tend to want to shoehorn these prophecies into what is familiar and comfortable to us, especially if it helps us feel we are giving the Lord His much due reverence and worship. However this latter day King David is a symbol of our Saviors love and the plan of salvation which both the Lord and Heavenly Father have effectuated for us.

Facsimile 3 shows Abraham ruling at Pharaohs behest sitting on the throne while Pharaoh stands behind him. This is a grand principle with smaller microcosms and symbols. Joseph ruled at Pharaoh's behest. The latter day David rules at Christ's behest just as Christ rules at Elohims behest. The plan of salvation is one of participatory Godhood, governance, and salvation. Our baptismal covenant is essentially the role of the Holy Ghost is mosiah 18. Temple work is proxy salvation. The ascension of the Davidic Servant is highly emblematic of our own exaltation and reward and ruling at the behest of a higher being.

The predictions in the OP of this 'marred servant' are mostly based on personal revelation. The times scriptures are cited, it is most often using an 'alternate interpretation'. From what I see, most of the scriptures cited are actually referring to Jesus Christ and a couple refer to Joseph Smith.

I'm not sure what purpose there is in taking scriptures which are referring to the Messiah and trying to rework them to make them fit a personal belief in additional 'servants' coming forward in the last days.

It seems foolish to be looking for a man when we should be looking for the return of the Savior (though a lot needs to happen before this). It seems especially dangerous to be looking for a man during a time when false christs and false prophets will be rising up among us to lead people astray.

And, while I've seen a lot of predictions that something will happen on Sept 23, I really am not sure exactly what people are trying to claim will happen. I think they've kept it vague because while they secretly hope for some calamitous or miraculous event, they know that sept 23 will come and go as any other day.

There are signs in the heavens but I don't think they are meant to be read singly, but to be taken collectively, as this fulfills prophecy. We already know we live in the last days and we already know the events which need to take place before the return of the Savior in his glory.

You tend to shut down speculation and discussion on the pretext of it being dangerous. We are here gathered in the name of the Lord to discuss these exciting times. I'm open to being wrong about every single thing to know the truth and mind of the lord. Are you? Because you are wrong about an important end times servant not appearing before the Lord does. Joseph Smith has stated this more than once. The scriptures state it. Read Isaiah 11. Revelation 11. D&C 113. Ezekiel 37. Humble yourself and be ready to learn something new as the Lord cannot teach those who blind themselves thinking they already know the meaning of all things.

You are not the shepherd of dangerous speculation.

Nobody is prophesying what will happen on 9/23 but we are collectively doing what's been commanded of us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself to look for signs of His coming so to shame us into silence is something we can know with a perfect knowledge is not of Him. To say we err by discussing what the signs mean is wrong. To suggest this is foolishness is in fact the opposite. Until we know all things we should ever be searching together not shaming or fearmongering people into silence.

If the Lord ever tells me, "Go and say unto this people, 'Thus saith the Lord`“ I would do so, wouldn't you? Yet not even the Op has done that as Durzan is just sharing what he feels has been personally revealed to him. Joseph Smith himself encourages this as you can see in the quote that BrianM placed in the rules.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 17th, 2017, 4:47 pm The predictions in the OP of this 'marred servant' are mostly based on personal revelation. The times scriptures are cited, it is most often using an 'alternate interpretation'. From what I see, most of the scriptures cited are actually referring to Jesus Christ and a couple refer to Joseph Smith.

I'm not sure what purpose there is in taking scriptures which are referring to the Messiah and trying to rework them to make them fit a personal belief in additional 'servants' coming forward in the last days.

It seems foolish to be looking for a man when we should be looking for the return of the Savior (though a lot needs to happen before this). It seems especially dangerous to be looking for a man during a time when false christs and false prophets will be rising up among us to lead people astray.

And, while I've seen a lot of predictions that something will happen on Sept 23, I really am not sure exactly what people are trying to claim will happen. I think they've kept it vague because while they secretly hope for some calamitous or miraculous event, they know that sept 23 will come and go as any other day.

There are signs in the heavens but I don't think they are meant to be read singly, but to be taken collectively, as this fulfills prophecy. We already know we live in the last days and we already know the events which need to take place before the return of the Savior in his glory.

Read 3 Nephi 20 and 21. Christ is talking to the Nephites/Lamanites and telling them what is going to happen to their descendants in the last days. He talks about the restoration of the gospel, the cleansing of america, and the building of Zion. Its hard to find scriptures more relevant and important to our day than those 2 chapters, yet hardly anyone takes the time to really study them. If you do, it becomes clear that there absolutely will be an important servant/prophet to usher in Zion and it is definitely not Joseph. Joseph was not marred, he died, this servant does not die, and most importantly Joseph didn't usher in Zion as this servant will. Go read. its important. Its not Joseph and its not Christ, he calls this man his servant, Christ is the one speaking. I think he's also mentioned in D&C 103:13-18.

As you pointed out, there are tons of false prophets, Satan is trying to confuse everything. How will you recognize the real servant if you aren't familiar with the signs and work he will do?

EDIT: Another interesting thing, you mentioned the risks of false prophets, but what about the risks of missing a real one? Here is what it says in 3 Nephi 21:11.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Those who fail to recognize and follow the words Christ gives this servant will be cut off from among the people of the covenant. Seems like that's something everyone should know about and be watching for.

I expect many will react to the real servant and call him a false prophet. In fact, I expect, if he is marred and healed as I believe the scriptures say he will be, that many will in fact mistake him for the antichrist, since many are looking for a similar sign to identify him, where he is wounded in the head, killed, and then revived. What a bad mistake it would be to confuse the two.

Can I add a second like to the above post for the Edit?

How about I do it for you?

On the note of searching dillegently, what are some of the signs you are looking for of the coming of the marred servant? I posted mine, so it's only fair that you guys share what you are looking for. If we can find some common signs (particularly if it is flat out quoted from the scriptures with little to no conjecture) then we have some common ground to work with.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 12:18 am How about I do it for you?

On the note of searching dillegently, what are some of the signs you are looking for of the coming of the marred servant? I posted mine, so it's only fair that you guys share what you are looking for. If we can find some common signs (particularly if it is flat out quoted from the scriptures with little to no conjecture) then we have some common ground to work with.

I applaud you for your bravery. I would be happy to do so tomorrow if I can find time.

alaris wrote: ↑September 17th, 2017, 5:08 pm You tend to shut down speculation and discussion on the pretext of it being dangerous. We are here gathered in the name of the Lord to discuss these exciting times. I'm open to being wrong about every single thing to know the truth and mind of the lord. Are you? Because you are wrong about an important end times servant not appearing before the Lord does. Joseph Smith has stated this more than once. The scriptures state it. Read Isaiah 11. Revelation 11. D&C 113. Ezekiel 37. Humble yourself and be ready to learn something new as the Lord cannot teach those who blind themselves thinking they already know the meaning of all things.

You are not the shepherd of dangerous speculation.

Nobody is prophesying what will happen on 9/23 but we are collectively doing what's been commanded of us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself to look for signs of His coming so to shame us into silence is something we can know with a perfect knowledge is not of Him. To say we err by discussing what the signs mean is wrong. To suggest this is foolishness is in fact the opposite. Until we know all things we should ever be searching together not shaming or fearmongering people into silence.

If the Lord ever tells me, "Go and say unto this people, 'Thus saith the Lord`“ I would do so, wouldn't you? Yet not even the Op has done that as Durzan is just sharing what he feels has been personally revealed to him. Joseph Smith himself encourages this as you can see in the quote that BrianM placed in the rules.

We should all be shepherds of dangerous speculations. Whole sects are ruined by it.

Lets flip that coin and consider: Maybe the only dangerous speculation here, is denying that there will be the end time servant(s)? ...all in all, J.Smith mentions Latter day David, the teaching that cant be denied,...BoM mentions an "Indian prophet"...Isaiah-root rod branch...and so on and so forth.

Its the just around the corner stuff that gets people in trouble. In the 1970's my family knew people who would name their kids David. Still waiting.

Well, I'll start with the scriptures I think are pretty clearly associated with him.

3 Nephi 20 wrote: 41 And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

42 For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.

43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

45 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Verses 41 and 42 are clearly talking about the next prophesied exodus to me and since the verses for the marred servant immediately follow, I am thinking he's the man like unto Moses mentioned in D&C 103, that will lead the righteous on an exodus, helping keep them safe while america is cleansed.

3 Nephi 21 wrote: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

3 Nephi 21 adds more to our understanding. The verses 12-20 are talking about the cleansing of america, and just previous to that, the marred servant is described in almost the exact same ways as 3 Nephi 20 as declaring a marvelous work that causes kings to shut their mouths, etc.

D&C 103 wrote: 15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.

20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

If you look at the exodus described in 3 Nephi 20:41-42, its described very similarly to D&C 103:20, with Christs presence among the people.

So those are the scriptures I think are most easy to draw a link between. From them I see that the servant will be:

1. He will declare God's marvelous work to the people and the kings (3Nephi 20,21)

• He will be badly marred in face and form -- from those who he declares God's marvelous work to (3 Nephi 21:9-10).

• At some point he will gather people for an exodus (3Nephi 20, D&C 103)

That's basically it for the scriptures, at least the ones that I feel fairly certain about. There are a few that I think might be talking about the marred servant but aren't as clear.

Isaiah 42 wrote: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I believe this is talking about the marred servant too. In particular, verse 6 is interesting to me. The marred servant will make a covenant for the gentiles, or in other words, he will help bring the gentiles into the covenant. I think that requires a sacrifice on his part, which will probably be fulfilled by allowing himself to become marred beyond human likeness.

It also says, he will not cry or lift up, or cause his voice to be heard in the street. I'm not sure what that means, but to my mind, it sounds like he won't be doing too much of the normal prophet routine, speaking to the public, calling to repentance, etc. He won't be heard in the street. Now, even more speculation, I think he will declare God's marvelous work, get marred, then go quiet for a time, giving people time to see that work being fulfilled, giving himself time to recover from the marring, etc. Then, those who were receptive and recognize him will be gathered for the exodus somehow and then the destruction starts. You could also take a look at 1 Nephi 21 and Isaiah 49.

Just a few more bullets.

1. His coming forth marks the end of the time of gentiles (Just inference, end times events can't start til the time of gentiles ends. 2000ish BC (Abraham) to 0 CE - Time of Israelites, 0-2000ish CE, Time of the Gentiles, rougly 2000 years each period)

• Although I don't think he'll do a lot of preaching, I think when he declares God's marvelous work to the kings, he will give us a sign or something to help us see he is a prophet. (just speculation based on the pattern of many other past prophets)

• Even as he sacrifices himself to be tortured and marred to make allowance for the gentiles into the covenant, many will reject him and call him antichrist. Many of the mainstream Christians falsely interpret revelation 13:3 as being the antichrist, who is wounded and then healed. The way the marred servant is hurt so badly and then healed will be close enough to their false interpretation of revelation 13 that they will reject him. Many ignorant LDS will probably jump on board with that thinking too.(just guess work based on what I know of human nature)

• He won't be politically correct or "tolerant." He will be blunt and truthful like past prophets (He won't have time or opportunity to mess around or preach much) (just my own guess)

Ok, that pretty well covers it for my list I guess. If I think of anything else I'll add it in later.

alaris wrote: ↑September 17th, 2017, 5:08 pm You tend to shut down speculation and discussion on the pretext of it being dangerous.It can be dangerous, if it draws people away from truths and a belief in christ. It's also dangerous if it makes people vulnerable to following a false prophet. We are here gathered in the name of the Lord to discuss these exciting times.Alaris, everyone on this forum are not believers, some of them teach and preach falsehoods and you need a spirit of discernment to know what is truth and what is false. I'm open to being wrong about every single thing to know the truth and mind of the lord. Are you? Because you are wrong about an important end times servant not appearing before the Lord does. I know the Messiah Ben David prophecy, I don't deny that.Joseph Smith has stated this more than once. The scriptures state it. Read Isaiah 11. Revelation 11. D&C 113. Ezekiel 37. Humble yourself and be ready to learn something new as the Lord cannot teach those who blind themselves thinking they already know the meaning of all things. I am willing to learn and listen to others, but I am skeptical of the new claims which are being made as long time scripture interpretations are being reworked. As I've been looking at it, I think some of
this is attributable to Avraham Gileadi and Val Brinkerhoff. Not all, but I think that some have taken their theories and then built upon them.

You are not the shepherd of dangerous speculation. I'm simply sharing my thoughts on the forum, since it is for discussion.

Nobody is prophesying what will happen on 9/23 but we are collectively doing what's been commanded of us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself to look for signs of His coming so to shame us into silence is something we can know with a perfect knowledge is not of Him. To say we err by discussing what the signs mean is wrong. To suggest this is foolishness is in fact the opposite. Until we know all things we should ever be searching together not shaming or fearmongering people into silence. I think you are overreacting. I'm giving my views on this. I don't agree with the interpretations which are being offered, that claim more 'servants' to come, other than the ones we know of-- Messiah Ben Joseph (Joseph Smith who already fufilled his mission), Messiah Ben David (who is Jewish and a leader to rise up for the Jews) and Jesus Christ, the Messiah. I'm not convinced of Val Brinkerhoff's theory that 2 Ne 3:24 is speaking of an additional Lamanite prophet (he's reinterpreting this to be referring to a descendant of Joseph, Lehi's son, and not Joseph Smith. I will continue to look at evidence, but he hasn't convinced me. I'm not shaming anyone into silence, if you feel shamed, maybe it's because you are saying things that might make you embarrassed later and that's not my fault.

If the Lord ever tells me, "Go and say unto this people, 'Thus saith the Lord`“ I would do so, wouldn't you? Yet not even the Op has done that as Durzan is just sharing what he feels has been personally revealed to him. Joseph Smith himself encourages this as you can see in the quote that BrianM placed in the rules.

I know you believe that you receive revelation for others, but frankly, I'm skeptical that a lot of what you share here is actual truth. So far, I have often felt unsettled about the things you share. But it's not just you. I see a lot of things shared on this forum over the years that I don't believe are truths from God. I think there is a lot of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture on the forum. I've seen many of these predictions and prophecies come to nothing. I also am extremely concerned with the reworking of scriptural interpretations that are done by you and others which I do not believe is inspired. Especially when scriptures which refer to the Savior are reworked to suggest they prophecy of men, I don't like that. I feel it's taking away the focus of the prophets on prophesying of Christ. We live in the last days and expect to see Satan's power rising so I am always concerned to see LDS losing their focus on our Savior and instead looking for strong men to save them.

The 9/23 prophecies are a good example of what I find unsettling. They come from varying sources on the internet, they seem to have been picked up, reworked for an LDS audience and then put forward here. This happened with the blood moons, with the end of the world prophecies of 2012, the earthquake prophecies of Julie Rowe, the predictions of economic collapse which seems to come forward every Sept/October for the last few years. Can you blame anyone for being skeptical, if they've seen this pattern repeated over and over?

What I'm taking issue with now is the mixing of the 9/23 with these additional servant prophecies. Val Brinkerhoff's Lamanite Prophet and the recent addition of a 'Davidic Servant' (who apparently isn't Jewish and is a prophet to the LDS people) are good examples. Can anyone show where these to prophecies were considered by any LDS prophets/apostles/ devout scholars before Avraham Gileadi and Val Brinkerhoff? Now you are adding this 'marred servant'? So, now we have three new 'servants' that poster are claiming are coming before the Savior, in addition to the Messiah Ben David, who is well known, among LDS and Jewish traditions.

This forum is for discussion and so, if you bring your predictions and prophecies here, I think you should expect to defend them and not feel this is 'shutting down' discussion. I'll remind those of you on this forum who put forward your predictions and prophecies--there's such a thing as witnesses to back up what you say and saying it comes from 'personal revelation' is not solid evidence for the rest of us. I'm also going to be wary of beliefs that rework or reinterpret scriptures and/or diminish the scriptural references to the Savior.

Rensai wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 9:32 am Well, I'll start with the scriptures I think are pretty clearly associated with him.

3 Nephi 20 wrote: 41 And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

42 For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.

43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

45 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Verses 41 and 42 are clearly talking about the next prophesied exodus to me and since the verses for the marred servant immediately follow, I am thinking he's the man like unto Moses mentioned in D&C 103, that will lead the righteous on an exodus, helping keep them safe while america is cleansed.

3 Nephi 21 wrote: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

3 Nephi 21 adds more to our understanding. The verses 12-20 are talking about the cleansing of america, and just previous to that, the marred servant is described in almost the exact same ways as 3 Nephi 20 as declaring a marvelous work that causes kings to shut their mouths, etc.

D&C 103 wrote: 15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.

20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

If you look at the exodus described in 3 Nephi 20:41-42, its described very similarly to D&C 103:20, with Christs presence among the people.

So those are the scriptures I think are most easy to draw a link between. From them I see that the servant will be:

1. He will declare God's marvelous work to the people and the kings (3Nephi 20,21)

• He will be badly marred in face and form -- from those who he declares God's marvelous work to (3 Nephi 21:9-10).

• At some point he will gather people for an exodus (3Nephi 20, D&C 103)

That's basically it for the scriptures, at least the ones that I feel fairly certain about. There are a few that I think might be talking about the marred servant but aren't as clear.

Isaiah 42 wrote: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I believe this is talking about the marred servant too. In particular, verse 6 is interesting to me. The marred servant will make a covenant for the gentiles, or in other words, he will help bring the gentiles into the covenant. I think that requires a sacrifice on his part, which will probably be fulfilled by allowing himself to become marred beyond human likeness.

It also says, he will not cry or lift up, or cause his voice to be heard in the street. I'm not sure what that means, but to my mind, it sounds like he won't be doing too much of the normal prophet routine, speaking to the public, calling to repentance, etc. He won't be heard in the street. Now, even more speculation, I think he will declare God's marvelous work, get marred, then go quiet for a time, giving people time to see that work being fulfilled, giving himself time to recover from the marring, etc. Then, those who were receptive and recognize him will be gathered for the exodus somehow and then the destruction starts. You could also take a look at 1 Nephi 21 and Isaiah 49.

Just a few more bullets.

1. His coming forth marks the end of the time of gentiles (Just inference, end times events can't start til the time of gentiles ends. 2000ish BC (Abraham) to 0 CE - Time of Israelites, 0-2000ish CE, Time of the Gentiles, rougly 2000 years each period)

• Although I don't think he'll do a lot of preaching, I think when he declares God's marvelous work to the kings, he will give us a sign or something to help us see he is a prophet. (just speculation based on the pattern of many other past prophets)

• Even as he sacrifices himself to be tortured and marred to make allowance for the gentiles into the covenant, many will reject him and call him antichrist. Many of the mainstream Christians falsely interpret revelation 13:3 as being the antichrist, who is wounded and then healed. The way the marred servant is hurt so badly and then healed will be close enough to their false interpretation of revelation 13 that they will reject him. Many ignorant LDS will probably jump on board with that thinking too.(just guess work based on what I know of human nature)

• He won't be politically correct or "tolerant." He will be blunt and truthful like past prophets (He won't have time or opportunity to mess around or preach much) (just my own guess)

Ok, that pretty well covers it for my list I guess. If I think of anything else I'll add it in later.

Are these your own thoughts and theories or have you been reading someone else's writings on this subject?

First of all - excellent post. This also addresses "Seek The Truth"' concern and reinforces dafty's point that it's more dangerous to not be on the lookout for this person. Keep those lamps oiled!

Rensai wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 9:32 am Well, I'll start with the scriptures I think are pretty clearly associated with him.

3 Nephi 20 wrote: 41 And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

42 For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.

43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

45 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Verses 41 and 42 are clearly talking about the next prophesied exodus to me and since the verses for the marred servant immediately follow, I am thinking he's the man like unto Moses mentioned in D&C 103, that will lead the righteous on an exodus, helping keep them safe while america is cleansed.

Agreed. I love how the Lord says "ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight"

Rensai wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 9:32 am

3 Nephi 21 wrote: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

3 Nephi 21 adds more to our understanding. The verses 12-20 are talking about the cleansing of america, and just previous to that, the marred servant is described in almost the exact same ways as 3 Nephi 20 as declaring a marvelous work that causes kings to shut their mouths, etc.

For those who try to shoehorn Joseph Smith into the marred servant, this is someone who holds the mantle during the transition from "the time of the gentiles" to "the gathering of Israel." The servant is the one who cuts off the gentiles - AKA NOT Joseph Smith people.

Rensai wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 9:32 am

D&C 103 wrote: 15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.

20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

If you look at the exodus described in 3 Nephi 20:41-42, its described very similarly to D&C 103:20, with Christs presence among the people.

So those are the scriptures I think are most easy to draw a link between. From them I see that the servant will be:

1. He will declare God's marvelous work to the people and the kings (3Nephi 20,21)

• He will be badly marred in face and form -- from those who he declares God's marvelous work to (3 Nephi 21:9-10).

• At some point he will gather people for an exodus (3Nephi 20, D&C 103)

That's basically it for the scriptures, at least the ones that I feel fairly certain about. There are a few that I think might be talking about the marred servant but aren't as clear.

I think the marring means something else. Nobody on our side of the veil knows him because we are behind the veil. His visage is marred to hide him imho - I don't recall if it's this thread or another I make that point with how the healing shows the Lord's wisdom. I agree on everything else.

3 Nephi 21:10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

Rensai wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 9:32 am

Isaiah 42 wrote: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I believe this is talking about the marred servant too. In particular, verse 6 is interesting to me. The marred servant will make a covenant for the gentiles, or in other words, he will help bring the gentiles into the covenant. I think that requires a sacrifice on his part, which will probably be fulfilled by allowing himself to become marred beyond human likeness.

It also says, he will not cry or lift up, or cause his voice to be heard in the street. I'm not sure what that means, but to my mind, it sounds like he won't be doing too much of the normal prophet routine, speaking to the public, calling to repentance, etc. He won't be heard in the street. Now, even more speculation, I think he will declare God's marvelous work, get marred, then go quiet for a time, giving people time to see that work being fulfilled, giving himself time to recover from the marring, etc. Then, those who were receptive and recognize him will be gathered for the exodus somehow and then the destruction starts. You could also take a look at 1 Nephi 21 and Isaiah 49.

Isaiah 41-46 (maybe 49 as I might be flipping that 9 in my head) are the chapters about the Davidic Servant's personal descent / ascent, so I strongly believe that not crying or lifting up his voice means he's not speaking to the public during this time. This stands in stark contrast to the earlier scripture you quoted about kings shutting their mouths at him. That suggests he will be very public at some point - and also boots Joseph Smith out of the running as Kings never shut their mouths at him.

Rensai wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 9:32 am Just a few more bullets.

1. His coming forth marks the end of the time of gentiles (Just inference, end times events can't start til the time of gentiles ends. 2000ish BC (Abraham) to 0 CE - Time of Israelites, 0-2000ish CE, Time of the Gentiles, rougly 2000 years each period)

• Although I don't think he'll do a lot of preaching, I think when he declares God's marvelous work to the kings, he will give us a sign or something to help us see he is a prophet. (just speculation based on the pattern of many other past prophets)

• Even as he sacrifices himself to be tortured and marred to make allowance for the gentiles into the covenant, many will reject him and call him antichrist. Many of the mainstream Christians falsely interpret revelation 13:3 as being the antichrist, who is wounded and then healed. The way the marred servant is hurt so badly and then healed will be close enough to their false interpretation of revelation 13 that they will reject him. Many ignorant LDS will probably jump on board with that thinking too.(just guess work based on what I know of human nature)

• He won't be politically correct or "tolerant." He will be blunt and truthful like past prophets (He won't have time or opportunity to mess around or preach much) (just my own guess)

Ok, that pretty well covers it for my list I guess. If I think of anything else I'll add it in later.

1. totally agreed

• agreed on the sign - I believe his pattern will be vastly different as his "preaching" will be aimed at the gathering. The light to the gentiles is a secondary facet but still a prophesied facet.

• Totally agreed - these are largely the same people who reject the Book of Mormon who profess to be Christian. I believe there will be many who think the DS is the antichrist just as many rejected the Spiritual Messiah. All the focus on the end times antichrist used to bother me before I really studied up on the DS, and now I know why. The devil himself is pushing that line because he knows who's coming and is laying the groundwork for mass rejection.

• Agreed as well. Again the PC buildup has also been specifically aimed at stopping the Kingdom of God. Israel is proof there are levels of separation and distinction of more advanced beings (Abraham 3) which is so not PC. Men lead their wives. So not PC. etc. etc. The time for LDS "delicacy" will be over imho and the DS will have some choice words for the gentiles who have embraced the mass slaughter of children through abortion.
  
  Great post Rensai! Looks like you and I agree on quite a bit.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:34 am

alaris wrote: ↑September 17th, 2017, 5:08 pm You tend to shut down speculation and discussion on the pretext of it being dangerous.It can be dangerous, if it draws people away from truths and a belief in christ. It's also dangerous if it makes people vulnerable to following a false prophet. We are here gathered in the name of the Lord to discuss these exciting times.Alaris, everyone on this forum are not believers, some of them teach and preach falsehoods and you need a spirit of discernment to know what is truth and what is false. I'm open to being wrong about every single thing to know the truth and mind of the lord. Are you? Because you are wrong about an important end times servant not appearing before the Lord does. I know the Messiah Ben David prophecy, I don't deny that.Joseph Smith has stated this more than once. The scriptures state it. Read Isaiah 11. Revelation 11. D&C 113. Ezekiel 37. Humble yourself and be ready to learn something new as the Lord cannot teach those who blind themselves thinking they already know the meaning of all things. I am willing to learn and listen to others, but I am skeptical of the new claims which are being made as long time scripture interpretations are being reworked. As I've been looking at it, I think some of
this is attributable to Avraham Gileadi and Val Brinkerhoff. Not all, but I think that some have taken their theories and then built upon them.

You are not the shepherd of dangerous speculation. I'm simply sharing my thoughts on the forum, since it is for discussion.

Nobody is prophesying what will happen on 9/23 but we are collectively doing what's been commanded of us by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself to look for signs of His coming so to shame us into silence is something we can know with a perfect knowledge is not of Him. To say we err by discussing what the signs mean is wrong. To suggest this is foolishness is in fact the opposite. Until we know all things we should ever be searching together not shaming or fearmongering people into silence. I think you are overreacting. I'm giving my views on this. I don't agree with the interpretations which are being offered, that claim more 'servants' to come, other than the ones we know of-- Messiah Ben Joseph (Joseph Smith who already fufilled his mission), Messiah Ben David (who is Jewish and a leader to rise up for the Jews) and Jesus Christ, the Messiah. I'm not convinced of Val Brinkerhoff's theory that 2 Ne 3:24 is speaking of an additional Lamanite prophet (he's reinterpreting this to be referring to a descendant of Joseph, Lehi's son, and not Joseph Smith. I will continue to look at evidence, but he hasn't convinced me. I'm not shaming anyone into silence, if you feel shamed, maybe it's because you are saying things that might make you embarrassed later and that's not my fault.

If the Lord ever tells me, "Go and say unto this people, 'Thus saith the Lord`“ I would do so, wouldn't you? Yet not even the Op has done that as Durzan is just sharing what he feels has been personally revealed to him. Joseph Smith himself encourages this as you can see in the quote that BrianM placed in the rules.

I know you believe that you receive revelation for others, but frankly, I'm skeptical that a lot of what you share here is actual truth.

Well you've already mistated beginning with the word "I know." Since I know I have not received revelation for others, do I even need to keep reading this? Well I'm a glutton for punishment.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:34 am So far, I have often felt unsettled about the things you share. But it's not just you. I see a lot of things shared on this forum over the years that I don't believe are truths from God. I think there is a lot of the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture on the forum. I've seen many of these predictions and prophecies come to nothing. I also am extremely concerned with the reworking of scriptural interpretations that are done by you and others which I do not believe is inspired. Especially when scriptures which refer to the Savior are reworked to suggest they prophecy of men, I don't like that. I feel it's taking away the focus of the prophets on prophesying of Christ. We live in the last days and expect to see Satan's power rising so I am always concerned to see LDS losing their focus on our Savior and instead looking for strong men to save them.

I hear you AI2.0. I do. I used to be you in fact and thought the Davidic Servant stuff was looking way past the mark. I have received a lot of personal revelation on the matter - not revelation for others. Things I wish I could shout from the rooftops, but that is not the pattern. We are taught to withhold our pearls form the swine. We are taught to listen to the spirit before sharing something sacred - something I have strived to do. I am merely looking for people here who have had similar experiences and revelation and as you can see from my response to Rensai - he and I are nearly spot on with our interpretations on these scriptures. There are many prophecies mainstream LDS think are about Christ which are not. They are just not. If that's true, and it is, then it doesn't mininimze Christ at all! HE is the one in charge - HE is the one who has a servant like an arrow in his quiver - whom HE has sheltered in the shadow of HIS hand for HIS purpose. HE has commanded us to seek the mysteries - to LOOK for his signs. You are being slightly overzealous in protecting people from looking past the mark because you are presuming you know all these prophecies are about Christ and we are wrong. Again, I'm open to being wrong but I'm truly seeking. You on the other hand have made up your mind on the matter and will remain unteachable by the Lord Himself until you open and inquire. Have you studied these? Have you read Isaiah 41-53 with a prayer in your heart and in humility and sincerity? If not, I strongly encourage you to do so.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:34 am The 9/23 prophecies are a good example of what I find unsettling. They come from varying sources on the internet, they seem to have been picked up, reworked for an LDS audience and then put forward here. This happened with the blood moons, with the end of the world prophecies of 2012, the earthquake prophecies of Julie Rowe, the predictions of economic collapse which seems to come forward every Sept/October for the last few years. Can you blame anyone for being skeptical, if they've seen this pattern repeated over and over?

Again, I haven't even shared the source of why I know 9/23 is the ascension of the Davidic Servant. I know it AI 2.0. I do not know how many accompanying signs there will be or if it will be a private affair, but it will at the very least be a private affair. If and when the Davidic Servant comes, we can ask him. We can find out whether he is the DS the same way we can find out the Book of Mormon is true - study and prayer. But like the thousands of christians who turned me away personally in Texas, nobody can find out without being open to it. So you're trying to shut down these conversation are truly a disservice to the Lord.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:34 am What I'm taking issue with now is the mixing of the 9/23 with these additional servant prophecies. Val Brinkerhoff's Lamanite Prophet and the recent addition of a 'Davidic Servant' (who apparently isn't Jewish and is a prophet to the LDS people) are good examples. Can anyone show where these to prophecies were considered by any LDS prophets/apostles/ devout scholars before Avraham Gileadi and Val Brinkerhoff? Now you are adding this 'marred servant'? So, now we have three new 'servants' that poster are claiming are coming before the Savior, in addition to the Messiah Ben David, who is well known, among LDS and Jewish traditions.

I couldn't follow your logic train there. There is a root and a rod in D&C 113. Nobody should be shamed away from taking a closer look and sharing their sacred thoughts and feelings on it. Those who follow the snuffers and the fundamentalists all seem to have that same spirit of contention and mocking and condescension because the choices they are making are a reflection of how off-kilter their souls are. Likely they've chosen selfishness and something about snufferism or fundamentalism fits them better.

Me? I've knelt in humility with my wife to know the mind and will of the Lord. We put the "ask, seek, knock" into practice about 2 years ago now and we have learned SO much. I sense some fear in you AI2.0 - have you lost a loved one to apostasy? Because your efforts here are off base. Are you afraid of searching and finding out these things for yourself? Remember that perfect love casts out all fear.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:34 am This forum is for discussion and so, if you bring your predictions and prophecies here, I think you should expect to defend them and not feel this is 'shutting down' discussion. I'll remind those of you on this forum who put forward your predictions and prophecies--there's such a thing as witnesses to back up what you say and saying it comes from 'personal revelation' is not solid evidence for the rest of us. I'm also going to be wary of beliefs that rework or reinterpret scriptures and/or diminish the scriptural references to the Savior.

This "solid evidence" sounds a lot like "Seeking after a sign." There are a few scriptures and quotes from Joseph Smith on sign seeking. They are not good. I'm not looking to "prove" anything. That's not how the model of learning works and you should know that. I haven't made a single prophecy here, yet you know that don't you? You and other "prophecy" police are listing to the wrong spirit. You try to shoehorn reality to justify your shutting people down which is why you and others erroneously call "speculation" prophecy.

I haven't read a single "prophecy" about the Davidic Servant in these forums made by an individual. I've read a lot of predictions and interpretation--none of which are dangerous. People are here to discuss as you said, and some people have even shared their personal revelation. Personal revelation does not equal prophecy or prophetic revelation for other people does it? I don't agree with much of Durzan's OP, but did he make any prophecies? NO. He's shared what he's learned and feels has been personally revealed to him. Good on him especially given how many LDS here bash people over the head with scriptures.

I'm sorry but I can't get over the "solid evidence for the rest of us" - I've had way more constructive conversations here than not, so I'm not even sure who "us" is - but the whole premise of "solid evidence" is preposterous. That's not how the Lord's model of learning is. Let me help you:

Ether 12:6 And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world that faith is things which are hoped for and not seen; wherefore, dispute not because ye see not, for ye receive no witness until after the trial of your faith.

And as for witnesses there are plenty here as evidenced by the many people who have solid testimonies that the Davidic Servant will be the Lord's end time servant. We should be free to discuss our thoughts and feelings and even personal revelation without the personal revelation police flying in SWAT team style.

As for "shutting down" discussion, your tone of your OP in this thread was exactly that essentially calling us all foolish. This is the spirit of the large and spacious building. The spirit with which you've engaged is off and is devoid of charity and has fruits of sign seeking and mocking. I suggest a personal inventory AI2.0.

If the Davidic Servant is a future servant of the Lord - he is - then learning about Him IS learning about the Savior and His plan and giving Him true reverence. How many christians have rejected the Book of Mormon and not even glanced on it on the same pretext - that it somehow takes away from the Bible or the Lord Himself or have accused us of worshiping Joseph Smith? They are just as wrong for the exact same reasons.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:39 am

Rensai wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 9:32 am Well, I'll start with the scriptures I think are pretty clearly associated with him.

3 Nephi 20 wrote: 41 And then shall a cry go forth: Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch not that which is unclean; go ye out of the midst of her; be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord.

42 For ye shall not go out with haste nor go by flight; for the Lord will go before you, and the God of Israel shall be your rearward.

43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

45 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Verses 41 and 42 are clearly talking about the next prophesied exodus to me and since the verses for the marred servant immediately follow, I am thinking he's the man like unto Moses mentioned in D&C 103, that will lead the righteous on an exodus, helping keep them safe while america is cleansed.

3 Nephi 21 wrote: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

3 Nephi 21 adds more to our understanding. The verses 12-20 are talking about the cleansing of america, and just previous to that, the marred servant is described in almost the exact same ways as 3 Nephi 20 as declaring a marvelous work that causes kings to shut their mouths, etc.

D&C 103 wrote: 15 Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be.

19 Therefore, let not your hearts faint, for I say not unto you as I said unto your fathers: Mine angel shall go up before you, but not my presence.

20 But I say unto you: Mine angels shall go up before you, and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land.

If you look at the exodus described in 3 Nephi 20:41-42, its described very similarly to D&C 103:20, with Christs presence among the people.

So those are the scriptures I think are most easy to draw a link between. From them I see that the servant will be:

1. He will declare God's marvelous work to the people and the kings (3Nephi 20,21)

• He will be badly marred in face and form -- from those who he declares God's marvelous work to (3 Nephi 21:9-10).

• At some point he will gather people for an exodus (3Nephi 20, D&C 103)

That's basically it for the scriptures, at least the ones that I feel fairly certain about. There are a few that I think might be talking about the marred servant but aren't as clear.

Isaiah 42 wrote: 1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.
4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
5 ¶ Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:
6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

I believe this is talking about the marred servant too. In particular, verse 6 is interesting to me. The marred servant will make a covenant for the gentiles, or in other words, he will help bring the gentiles into the covenant. I think that requires a sacrifice on his part, which will probably be fulfilled by allowing himself to become marred beyond human likeness.

It also says, he will not cry or lift up, or cause his voice to be heard in the street. I'm not sure what that means, but to my mind, it sounds like he won't be doing too much of the normal prophet routine, speaking to the public, calling to repentance, etc. He won't be heard in the street. Now, even more speculation, I think he will declare God's marvelous work, get marred, then go quiet for a time, giving people time to see that work being fulfilled, giving himself time to recover from the marring, etc. Then, those who were receptive and recognize him will be gathered for the exodus somehow and then the destruction starts. You could also take a look at 1 Nephi 21 and Isaiah 49.

Just a few more bullets.

1. His coming forth marks the end of the time of gentiles (Just inference, end times events can't start til the time of gentiles ends. 2000ish BC (Abraham) to 0 CE - Time of Israelites, 0-2000ish CE, Time of the Gentiles, rougly 2000 years each period)

• Although I don't think he'll do a lot of preaching, I think when he declares God's marvelous work to the kings, he will give us a sign or something to help us see he is a prophet. (just speculation based on the pattern of many other past prophets)

• Even as he sacrifices himself to be tortured and marred to make allowance for the gentiles into the covenant, many will reject him and call him antichrist. Many of the mainstream Christians falsely interpret revelation 13:3 as being the antichrist, who is wounded and then healed. The way the marred servant is hurt so badly and then healed will be close enough to their false interpretation of revelation 13 that they will reject him. Many ignorant LDS will probably jump on board with that thinking too.(just guess work based on what I know of human nature)

• He won't be politically correct or "tolerant." He will be blunt and truthful like past prophets (He won't have time or opportunity to mess around or preach much) (just my own guess)

Ok, that pretty well covers it for my list I guess. If I think of anything else I'll add it in later.

Are these your own thoughts and theories or have you been reading someone else's writings on this subject?

I thought it was pretty clear. The first parts are straight out of scriptures, the stuff towards the end is just my own speculation.

You might also find this interesting.

JD, O PRATT 15:45
Whether that man is now in existence, or whether it is someone yet to be born; or whether it is our present leader who has led us forth into these valleys of the mountains, whether God will grant unto us the great blessing to have his life spared to lead forth his people like a Moses, we perhaps may not all know. ... But be this as it may, whether he [Joseph Smith] is the man, whether President Young is the man, or whether the Lord shall hereafter raise up a man, for that purpose, we do know that when that day comes the Lord will not only send his angels before the army of Israel, but his presence will also be there.
JD, O PRATT 21:18
Indeed, before we can go back to inherit this land [in Jackson County, Missouri] in all its fulness of perfection, God has promised that he would raise up a man like unto Moses. Who this man will be I do not know; it may be a person with whom we are entirely unacquainted; it may be one of our infant children; it may be some person not yet born; it may be someone of middle age. But suffice it to say, that God will raise up such a man, and he will show forth his power through him, and through the people that he will lead forth to inherit that country, as he did through our fathers in the wilderness.

Orson Pratt at least believed in an end time servant, though obviously he didn't know who or when, etc.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm I suspect that the keys still yet remain with the Church, and that the Brethren still hold all or at least most of their authority. However, it is also becoming clear to me that there is corruption of one kind or another seeping within or into the walls of the Church. To make matters worse... pride and stagnation has been set within the hearts of many among the membership... and that is not a good sign. I plead unto you my brethren, heed the words of our current Prophets and Apostles... for the time in which they have yet to preach upon this earth is limited.

I have wondered if the stone that is prepared unto the Lord's servant will serve that very purpose:

Alma 37:23 And the Lord said: I will prepare unto my servant Gazelem, a stone, which shall shine forth in darkness unto light, that I may discover unto my people who serve me, that I may discover unto them the works of their brethren, yea, their secret works, their works of darkness, and their wickedness and abominations.

I've always focused on the secret works portion, but that is preceded by discovering unto people who Serve the Lord first. It stands to reason that there will be a sorting / sifting before the gathering takes place. The Lord will accomplish this with His wisdom imho.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm With the Days of Tribulation almost upon us now, it seems clear to me the time is coming when the church will risk being torn apart by said corruption. We read that in Helaman and 3rd Nephi that it only took a few years for the church established among the nephites to go from being completely righteous to completely wicked... to the point where they were even stoning the prophets, and it all started with just a little bit of pride. Many here have pointed out that the Book of Mormon has a secondary purpose of acting as foreshadowing of our day... so, if that is the case then that means that one way or another, the Church itself is going to be in mortal peril. If our current leadership remains righteous, then they could very well be in significant danger from both the government and our own people in just the span of a few years. If they do not remain righteous, then it will cause a Great Schism within the church, and the church will be nearly torn asunder.

As long as even one family is righteous, they will be spared. I personally believe most or all of the brethren will remain righteous at the sorting.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm Yet the Lord will provide a way to weather the coming storm. The sign in the heavens that many of us have been discussing for the past couple of weeks (The one of the Virgin Giving Birth in Revelations 12) is one of the signs of way which the Lord will provide to signal the way for us to weather the coming days. The sign on 9/23 speaks of the coming of a young man who will be a forbearer to the Lord's second coming, even as John the Baptist was a forbearer to Christ's mortal ministry. This man is known by many names: the Josephite, the Archangel Raphael, Elias: the Son of the Morning, the Soul of Iron, The Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation, The Lord's Maverick, The Lord's Wild Card, and The Marred Servant.

Out of curiosity, where did you get the Soul of Iron, The Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation, The Lord's Maverick, The Lord's Wild Card?

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm The Marred Servant has several other signs and signature actions by which you can recognize him:

1. He was one of the Great and Noble ones in the Premortal Realm. His loyalty and closeness to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ during the war in heaven earned him the title of Son of the Morning, taken from Lucifer when he was cast out. It is possible that the Marred Servant is actually the Archangel Raphael. (Personal Revelation revealed this... but I could also cite Abraham 3, as it seems to indicate that most prophets are chosen from among the Great and Noble Ones.)

I believe Raphael is Enoch as do many LDS. However, I believe Enoch is the archangel over the 144,000 and over the Davidic Servant himself. Enoch showed how to build ZION with a speech impediment and without the 144,000 to aid him. I believe the DS will not have those handicaps when he builds ZION because he is a "younger" soul.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He will be a descendant of Joseph or Hyrum Smith, and thus be a descendant of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. He will also have the blood of Judah flowing through his veins. For this reason he shall be called the Josephite. (Personal Revelation combined with an alternative interpretation of Isaiah 11:1-5, & D&C 113:3-6.)

D&C 113 says he will be of Ephraim or Jospeh and of Judah. I do not believe he will be a direct descendant of Joseph Smith though he certainly could be related to him. The Jesse link is the important lineage, not the Joseph Smith link imho.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He will take up the mantle of Joseph Smith, and finish what he started. At times, many will mistake him for being a resurrected Joseph Smith. Ultimately, this will result in the Restoration of All Things. For this reason he shall be called Elias. (Again, primary source is Personal Revelation. Related Scriptures would be dealing with Elias.)

I have struggled with LDSA calling him Elias, and I'm not sure why. Elias is anything but a clearcut name and meaning.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He will break conventional thought, tradition, and culture within the church. His relationship with the Father is so strong that conventional thought within the church cannot adequately explain it. Thus he shall be called the Lord's Maverick and the Lord's Wild Card. (Personal Revelation talking about stuff that would baffle most members and turn our understanding of the gospel on its head. Conjecture: The marred servant is someone who destroys tradition and sets things right. See the point about one of his names/titles being Raphael.)

Thank you for sharing your personal revelation by the way and doing so without trying to start your own church.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]His faith and resolve will be unshakable... for this is the reason why he is known as the Soul of Iron. (Personal Revelation. Conjecture: you cannot do what he is going to do WITHOUT unshakable faith.)

I too feel his unshakable testimony and faith is a defining feature that makes him mighty and strong. Gideon was a mighty man of valor because he knew that the LORD was his might. Same for the Davidic Servant methinks.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]His eyes shall burn with azure fire when he preaches the gospel. (Personal Revelation. Conjecture: It is well documented in scripture that some prophets sometimes go through a physical change that manages to evoke fear in the wicked. Nephi was one of these prophets, and so too was Joseph Smith. It is reasonable to assume that the Marred Servant would have a similar ability. Eyes that glow with a flaming blue light would be one of the changes brought upon by the spirit when he is preaching.)

That sounds amazing and I hope it's true!

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]His voice will be like a thundering lion to the wicked, while like a lamb to the righteous. In this voice will he urge many to repent. (Primarily personal revelation. But again, there are documented accounts in the scriptures of prophets speaking "in a loud voice," so this isn't entirely unprecedented either)
[*]Many will heed his voice, but many more will reject him. (Conjecture: In a day where most of the world is wicked and will harden their hearts, curse God and die, it only stands to reason that he would be rejected by many. Backed up by passages in Revelation.)

I like what LDSA says about how somehow "Elias" will be able to convince everyone that Jesus is the Christ - sounds super cool and would fulfill every knee shall bow, but I have not received anything personally about this.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He will be taught in the School of the Prophets, and will be legitimately ordained as an Apostle of the Lord. His ordination will seem to be a miracle to the body of the church. (Personal Revelation)

I'm still wondering how the Davidic Servant will ascend with regards to the church. The church is true, so I'm hoping it's totally copacetic.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He shall cleanse the church of any and all corruption, and bring us out of condemnation if we haven't already. (Personal Revelation: This goes back to the prompting that I posted about a while ago... the one where I relay that the church will only be brought fully out of condemnation when a righteous descendant of Joseph or Hyrum leads us as the prophet. Can possibly be backed up by the scriptures that tell of Christ cleansing the temple of the money changers. See #12)

Agreed. This is the Mighty and Strong passage in D&C 85 about setting in order the House of God.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]IF (and that is a big IF) the leadership ever falters or attempts to lead the church astray during his ministry, then he will risk excommunication to set things back on course. If that happens... expect him to stand directly before the Twelve and denounce them. Nevertheless, he will work within the bounds that the Lord set forth in the D&C, whenever possible. (This one is entirely due to Personal Revelation. Conjecture: There are procedures listed in the D&C that were put in place to legitimately remove prophets and apostles from authority... why would those processes be put in place if the Lord had no need to use them? See #12.)

I'm wondering - a.k.a speculating - if there will be any apostles who don't want to lose their place in line and rebel against him. This would be highly symbolic of a heavenly rebellion imho and may indeed be the fruits of the rebellion for the next iteration.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]All that he does shall be done through legitimate means and authority... both within the church, and within God's Kingdom. (Conjecture: God's house is a house of order. Therefore, anything that the Marred Servant will do, he will do through the proper procedures and with the proper authority.)

Agreed

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He shall be marred, both physically and spiritually, but the Lord shall preserve him and will heal him. For this reason shall he be called the Marred Servant. (3 Nephi 21:10. Conjecture: Spiritual comes before physical... therefore, he shall be spiritually marred before being physically marred)

Agreed but as the Lord says His wisdom is revealed in the healing of the marring, then the marring served a purpose. I personally believe his spiritual visage is marred (disfigured) to hide him from the devils, and his brain - pineal and pituitary - are marred to hide his gifts of "sight" and "connection."

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He will be comparable to many other prophets of old in both works and power, particularly Enoch. He will be comparable to Martin Luther with his desires. It is worth noting that many have stated their belief that Raphael may be Enoch... which makes this servant's comparison to him all the more apt.(Personal Revelation)

Already spoke on this. Enoch is the Davidic Servant's tutor. At some point Enoch and his city will meet them there.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]The Lord's testimony of thunderings and lightnings shall come through him, as well as from the Lord's voice directly. (Amos 3:7, D&C 43:17-18. This one is fairly clear cut.)
[*]He shall have the miraculous gift to heal others as well as destroy. In fact, part of his mission is to heal the church as a surgeon would heal his patient through making a wound, removing a deadly tumor, then sealing up the wound. For this reason he will be called Raphael. (3 Nephi 21:10 indicates that the Marred Servant shall be healed by God after being marred more than any man.)

For this reason Raphael is his tutor.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He shall have many spiritual gifts... including that of Dreaming and Prophecy. These gifts will start out somewhat erratic in his life, but shall manifest individually and become refined through practice and the guidance of the hand of the Lord. This will progress at a slow and steady rate, to the point where he shall eventually have access to all spiritual gifts by the time the Lord comes. (Some Personal Revelation, but Mainly Conjecture: Some of the points mentioned above are clearly a form of spiritual gift, such as being a Soul of Iron.)

Agreed

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm [*]He shall participate in the meeting on Adam Ondi Ahman, and shall be numbered among the 144,000. (Cojecture: With how much scriptural passages seem to refer to him, Joseph Smith, and the Davidic Servant, it is only natural to assume that he, and the other two as well, will be a part of the meeting with Adam and Christ, alongside all the other prophets and apostles.)
[*]He shall lead the members of the Church back to Independence Missouri and shall establish the city of Zion. He shall be alive and on the earth when Christ comes. Thus he shall be known as the Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation. (Personal Revelation)
[*]He shall stand on the Mount of Olives when Christ shall come (Personal Revelation: Might be literal or figurative.).
[*]He shall not taste of death, but shall instead be translated. (3 Nephi 21:10 mentions that this servant's life shall be in the Lord's hand; this can hint at translation. Personal Revelation confirms that he shall be translated.)
[/list]

Additional Clarification: A good chunk of these signs I cite are due to personal revelation combined with a bit of conjecture... so your mileage may vary. Scriptures can and have provided me some additional insight into some of these notes... but said insight is limited. I am working on adding scriptural references and notes on what is personal revelation and conjecture. It will be in bold.

Good on you to share pearls. I don't agree with all of them, but respect you tremendously for sharing them. Thank you.

I think and believe that speculation and personal revelation are just fine, as long as we don't take ourselves too seriously, and as long as we're not projecting it forcefully onto others. I do think it all has to be taken with a dose of humility and human error, too. We've all been exposed to too many personal revelations and interpretations/speculations which proved to be flat-out wrong, erroneous, false. So why take ourselves too seriously? If we don't, and we're clear that we are expressing personal opinions (whatever their source might be, scriptures, personal revelation or interpretation, etc.), then we can share and compare without fear or contention. We're discussing stuff that may or may not prove to be totally correct/right/true. Time will tell. If nothing happens between 9/21-9/23 this year, and we don't see anything tangible and global following it in the year or few years to come, so what? Most of us are looking for or forward to the signs of the times, the end, etc. So has every generation before ours (and they were all pretty much wrong, btw). It's fun, right? Anticipating. It's like Christmas morning when you were a child and still believed in Santa Clause. If nothing happens, nothing happens. If stuff starts happening a super-prophet arises, well then, wow, I guess we'll see it. Although, aren't the Anti-Christ, false prophet, and beast also represented as showing forth marvelous supernatural powers, too? I guess we'll see it on both sides. Super-powers, yeah, it's about time.

Rensai wrote: ↑September 17th, 2017, 10:02 pm

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 17th, 2017, 4:47 pm The predictions in the OP of this 'marred servant' are mostly based on personal revelation. The times scriptures are cited, it is most often using an 'alternate interpretation'. From what I see, most of the scriptures cited are actually referring to Jesus Christ and a couple refer to Joseph Smith.

I'm not sure what purpose there is in taking scriptures which are referring to the Messiah and trying to rework them to make them fit a personal belief in additional 'servants' coming forward in the last days.

It seems foolish to be looking for a man when we should be looking for the return of the Savior (though a lot needs to happen before this). It seems especially dangerous to be looking for a man during a time when false christs and false prophets will be rising up among us to lead people astray.

And, while I've seen a lot of predictions that something will happen on Sept 23, I really am not sure exactly what people are trying to claim will happen. I think they've kept it vague because while they secretly hope for some calamitous or miraculous event, they know that sept 23 will come and go as any other day.

There are signs in the heavens but I don't think they are meant to be read singly, but to be taken collectively, as this fulfills prophecy. We already know we live in the last days and we already know the events which need to take place before the return of the Savior in his glory.

Read 3 Nephi 20 and 21. Christ is talking to the Nephites/Lamanites and telling them what is going to happen to their descendants in the last days. He talks about the restoration of the gospel, the cleansing of america, and the building of Zion. Its hard to find scriptures more relevant and important to our day than those 2 chapters, yet hardly anyone takes the time to really study them. If you do, it becomes clear that there absolutely will be an important servant/prophet to usher in Zion and it is definitely not Joseph. Joseph was not marred, he died, this servant does not die, and most importantly Joseph didn't usher in Zion as this servant will. Go read. its important. Its not Joseph and its not Christ, he calls this man his servant, Christ is the one speaking. I think he's also mentioned in D&C 103:13-18.

As you pointed out, there are tons of false prophets, Satan is trying to confuse everything. How will you recognize the real servant if you aren't familiar with the signs and work he will do?

EDIT: Another interesting thing, you mentioned the risks of false prophets, but what about the risks of missing a real one? Here is what it says in 3 Nephi 21:11.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Those who fail to recognize and follow the words Christ gives this servant will be cut off from among the people of the covenant. Seems like that's something everyone should know about and be watching for.

I expect many will react to the real servant and call him a false prophet. In fact, I expect, if he is marred and healed as I believe the scriptures say he will be, that many will in fact mistake him for the antichrist, since many are looking for a similar sign to identify him, where he is wounded in the head, killed, and then revived. What a bad mistake it would be to confuse the two.

Not to be disagreeable, but Joseph was marred (tarred and feathered, and beaten). They attempted to poison him when he was tarred and feathered and chipped a tooth in the process, and had a whistle in his speech ever after. There were scars on his neck from the tarring and feathering, which is why he wore his collar up. It wasn't just the style. Not to mention the marring that took place in Liberty Jail. But he was healed. He went on to fulfill his mission. And while he still had a mission to fulfill, His life was in the hands of the Lord. He was protected many times from death, hammers falling but no guns going off on more than one occasion with multiple guns. I can't think of anyone else who actually fits 3 Nephi 21 better than Joseph. Christ is talking about the establishment of the Gospel among the Gentiles, which is exactly what Joseph did. He was marred, and healed...recovered from the tarring and feathering and attempted poisoning. He was presevered many times. "His life was in the Lord's hand". And, he was even given the way that he could continue to live by the Lord, but instead made the choice, according to his agency, to seal his testimony with his blood. Those who don't accept the marvelous work and wonder (the Restoration of the gospel and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon) are cut off from being the covenant people of the Lord. So, it is not unreasonable to believe that at least 3 Nephi 21 is talking about Joseph Smith. But, reasonable minds can differ.

RAB wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 1:13 pm Not to be disagreeable, but Joseph was marred (tarred and feathered, and beaten). They attempted to poison him when he was tarred and feathered and chipped a tooth in the process, and had a whistle in his speech ever after. There were scars on his neck from the tarring and feathering, which is why he wore his collar up. It wasn't just the style. Not to mention the marring that took place in Liberty Jail. But he was healed. He went on to fulfill his mission. And while he still had a mission to fulfill, His life was in the hands of the Lord. He was protected many times from death, hammers falling but no guns going off on more than one occasion with multiple guns. I can't think of anyone else who actually fits 3 Nephi 21 better than Joseph. Christ is talking about the establishment of the Gospel among the Gentiles, which is exactly what Joseph did. He was marred, and healed...recovered from the tarring and feathering and attempted poisoning. He was presevered many times. "His life was in the Lord's hand". And, he was even given the way that he could continue to live by the Lord, but instead made the choice, according to his agency, to seal his testimony with his blood. Those who don't accept the marvelous work and wonder (the Restoration of the gospel and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon) are cut off from being the covenant people of the Lord. So, it is not unreasonable to believe that at least 3 Nephi 21 is talking about Joseph Smith. But, reasonable minds can differ.

Joseph Smith's life was a partial fulfillment of 3 Nephi 21, hence why many people such as yourself find that he fits the prophecy quite well; His life was a foreshadow to that of the Marred Servant, and that is as the Lord willed. However, if you look a bit closer, there are some details that don't quite add up.

1. Joseph was marred multiple times and healed. But he was marred BY his enemies, not BECAUSE of them. He also was not Marred beyond any man. Many others had been through much worse than being tarred, feathered, and being forced to drink poison... such as being burned alive at the stake, or being tortured with cruel instruments of death for days on end.
2. Joseph never preached before kings, nor did kings shut their mouths for him, nor his representatives, nor the fruit that was brought forth through his hands... namely the book of mormon.
3. Joseph was protected by the Lord for a time... but it was for the wise purpose of establishing the church to the point where it and the priesthood could survive through to the days of tribulation, among other things. And in the end, he died a martyr to seal his testimony with blood. The Marred Servant will live to see the Savior come.

Durzan wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 1:42 pm

RAB wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 1:13 pm Not to be disagreeable, but Joseph was marred (tarred and feathered, and beaten). They attempted to poison him when he was tarred and feathered and chipped a tooth in the process, and had a whistle in his speech ever after. There were scars on his neck from the tarring and feathering, which is why he wore his collar up. It wasn't just the style. Not to mention the marring that took place in Liberty Jail. But he was healed. He went on to fulfill his mission. And while he still had a mission to fulfill, His life was in the hands of the Lord. He was protected many times from death, hammers falling but no guns going off on more than one occasion with multiple guns. I can't think of anyone else who actually fits 3 Nephi 21 better than Joseph. Christ is talking about the establishment of the Gospel among the Gentiles, which is exactly what Joseph did. He was marred, and healed...recovered from the tarring and feathering and attempted poisoning. He was presevered many times. "His life was in the Lord's hand". And, he was even given the way that he could continue to live by the Lord, but instead made the choice, according to his agency, to seal his testimony with his blood. Those who don't accept the marvelous work and wonder (the Restoration of the gospel and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon) are cut off from being the covenant people of the Lord. So, it is not unreasonable to believe that at least 3 Nephi 21 is talking about Joseph Smith. But, reasonable minds can differ.

Joseph Smith's life was a partial fulfillment of 3 Nephi 21, hence why many people such as yourself find that he fits the prophecy quite well; His life was a foreshadow to that of the Marred Servant, and that is as the Lord willed. However, if you look a bit closer, there are some details that don't quite add up.

1. Joseph was marred multiple times and healed. But he was marred BY his enemies, not BECAUSE of them. He also was not Marred beyond any man. Many others had been through much worse than being tarred, feathered, and being forced to drink poison... such as being burned alive at the stake, or being tortured with cruel instruments of death for days on end.
2. Joseph never preached before kings, nor did kings shut their mouths for him, nor his representatives, nor the fruit that was brought forth through his hands... namely the book of mormon.
3. Joseph was protected by the Lord for a time... but it was for the wise purpose of establishing the church to the point where it and the priesthood could survive through to the days of tribulation, among other things. And in the end, he died a martyr to seal his testimony with blood. The Marred Servant will live to see the Savior come.

Again, these are differences of interpretation.
1. I didn't add all of Joseph's trials, to include the losing of his children multiple times, but I didn't see where in 3 Nephi 21 it said he was marred beyond any man. I see your point but I would say he was also marred because of his enemies, such as William Law and John C. Bennet who betrayed him. By and Because are often synonymous. By your logic, meaning because of your logic or by reason of insanity or because of insanity mean the same thing. So I think that is ultimately a distinction without a difference. Either way, Joseph was both marred because of his enemies betraying him, and often, interestingly enough since you pointed it out, not by their own hands. They usually stirred up other people to do their dirty work.

2. Joseph did send out a letter to all the kingdoms and nations of the earth announcing the restoration of the gospel.

3. Joseph did live to see the Savior come...multiple times in fact. And 3 Nephi 21 doesn't say anything about him personally being there for the second coming. It talks about the beginning of the work with the servant, and then stops talking about the servant and talks about the building of the New Jerusalem and the work going to the lost tribes without a mention of the servant.

So, my issue isn't about other prophecies. My issue is conflating and combining 3 Nephi 21 with others. I posit that 3 Nephi 21 is talking about Joseph Smith. That isn't to say Joseph is the "Davidic Servant" or whatever other prophecies there may be. I just think he clearly fits 3 Nephi 21. Who else was around when the marvelous work and wonder went the Lamanite seed? Only Joseph can fit that description because it has already happened. He sent missionaries to the Lamanites early on. But again, reasonable minds can differ.

Was Joseph Smith healed? Didn't he have a limp and have to comb his hair to hide his scars?

alaris wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:03 pm Was Joseph Smith healed? Didn't he have a limp and have to comb his hair to hide his scars?

I think that is another question open to interpretation. There is no doubt that he had adverse affects he carried with him. So the question is what is meant by the scripture when it says, "Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil."

Is it talking about spiritual healing of the soul, physical healing of the body, escape from the snares that marred the servant, or maybe all three?

I would argue he was spiritually healed from what must have been tremendous grief in losing children, being betrayed by friends, etc. Even though he was the subject of hundreds of trumped up law suits, he never became a withdrawn, distant, or negative person. He was humbled, his understanding of the savior deepened through his trials, but also knowing that the Lord would not allow his days to be cut short before the time. I would chalk that up to a healing of the soul.

Physically, I would argue that he also was healed, though some scars remained, because he resumed a vigorous life after Liberty jail. In contrast, Sydney Rigdon never fully recovered physically from the torture of Liberty Jail and was known not to have the same kind of rigor post Liberty Jail.

I don't think being healed requires all physical signs of trauma being removed, or else the Savior was not healed when resurrected since the marks were still in His hands and feet...for a very important reason, I might add. Also, when someone is healed from a disease, they may still carry scars...such as being healed from small pox or other disease which leaves scars. So, yes, I think Joseph can aptly be described as healed in all ways that have eternal significance or impacted the mission the Lord had for him and was explaining in 3 Nephi 21.

RAB wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 1:13 pm Not to be disagreeable, but Joseph was marred (tarred and feathered, and beaten). They attempted to poison him when he was tarred and feathered and chipped a tooth in the process, and had a whistle in his speech ever after. There were scars on his neck from the tarring and feathering, which is why he wore his collar up. It wasn't just the style. Not to mention the marring that took place in Liberty Jail. But he was healed. He went on to fulfill his mission. And while he still had a mission to fulfill, His life was in the hands of the Lord. He was protected many times from death, hammers falling but no guns going off on more than one occasion with multiple guns. I can't think of anyone else who actually fits 3 Nephi 21 better than Joseph. Christ is talking about the establishment of the Gospel among the Gentiles, which is exactly what Joseph did. He was marred, and healed...recovered from the tarring and feathering and attempted poisoning. He was presevered many times. "His life was in the Lord's hand". And, he was even given the way that he could continue to live by the Lord, but instead made the choice, according to his agency, to seal his testimony with his blood. Those who don't accept the marvelous work and wonder (the Restoration of the gospel and the coming forth of the Book of Mormon) are cut off from being the covenant people of the Lord. So, it is not unreasonable to believe that at least 3 Nephi 21 is talking about Joseph Smith. But, reasonable minds can differ.

That's fair. I know not everyone agrees with me that the marred guy in 3 Nephi 20 and 21 are the same, but I look at a few of the verses and think it has to be because both chapters mention that kings will shut their mouths, etc. One chapter talks about the cleansing of america right after the marred servant (3Nephi 21) and the other talks about Zion coming after (3 Nephi 20). I think that both chapters are highlighting some different things, but talking about the same times, the same events. I can add a couple points to what Durzan already posted about 3 Nephi 21. If you look at the beginning of the chapter, Christ lays out a sign for the descendants of the Nephites/Lamanites.

3 Nephi 21 wrote: 1 And verily I say unto you, I give unto you a sign, that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

2 And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;

3 Verily, verily, I say unto you, when these things shall be made known unto them of the Father, and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto you;

4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;

5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

6 For thus it behooveth the Father that it should come forth from the Gentiles, that he may show forth his power unto the Gentiles, for this cause that the Gentiles, if they will not harden their hearts, that they may repent and come unto me and be baptized in my name and know of the true points of my doctrine, that they may be numbered among my people, O house of Israel;

7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed shall begin to know these things—it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.

Those verses seem pretty clearly to be talking about the creation of the united states in verse 4, to the bringing forth of the BoM, and when the remnant of the Jacob begin to learn about the BoM and the gospel, that is a sign. What does the sign mean? That's in verse 1.

that ye may know the time when these things shall be about to take place—that I shall gather in, from their long dispersion, my people, O house of Israel, and shall establish again among them my Zion;

So the way I see it, Joseph and the early saints got all this covered or at least started. But that is the sign that the rest of these things, the end of the dispersion and the establishment of Zion are ABOUT to commence.

Joseph obviously didn't accomplish either of those things and it makes no sense that Christ would build up to that sign, telling them Zion is About to happen, then jump back to Joseph smith with more detail, then off to Zion again. Consider verse 8.

8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

And when what day shall come? The day from the previous verse of course, the gathering of Israel and Zion. In that case, all the stuff about the servant being marred, kings shutting their mouths, etc has to be someone other than Joseph, unless you believe a resurrected Joseph will come fulfill it or something.

And it is in THAT day that the marvelous work and wonder are done.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

Anyway, that's how I read that but even if you believe 3 Nephi 21 is talking about Joseph, there is no way he fits 3 Nephi 20's marred servant. Joseph wasn't marred nearly enough for that description. So either way, I guess you still have a marred servant appearing in the last days.

RAB wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:17 pm

alaris wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:03 pm Was Joseph Smith healed? Didn't he have a limp and have to comb his hair to hide his scars?

I think that is another question open to interpretation. There is no doubt that he had adverse affects he carried with him. So the question is what is meant by the scripture when it says, "Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil."

Is it talking about spiritual healing of the soul, physical healing of the body, escape from the snares that marred the servant, or maybe all three?

I would argue he was spiritually healed from what must have been tremendous grief in losing children, being betrayed by friends, etc. Even though he was the subject of hundreds of trumped up law suits, he never became a withdrawn, distant, or negative person. He was humbled, his understanding of the savior deepened through his trials, but also knowing that the Lord would not allow his days to be cut short before the time. I would chalk that up to a healing of the soul.

Physically, I would argue that he also was healed, though some scars remained, because he resumed a vigorous life after Liberty jail. In contrast, Sydney Rigdon never fully recovered physically from the torture of Liberty Jail and was known not to have the same kind of rigor post Liberty Jail.

I don't think being healed requires all physical signs of trauma being removed, or else the Savior was not healed when resurrected since the marks were still in His hands and feet...for a very important reason, I might add. Also, when someone is healed from a disease, they may still carry scars...such as being healed from small pox or other disease which leaves scars. So, yes, I think Joseph can aptly be described as healed in all ways that have eternal significance or impacted the mission the Lord had for him and was explaining in 3 Nephi 21.

I agree with that. In fact, I think the marred servant will be left with the physical signs of trauma as you called it, but his body will be functional. How else can people be astonished at his marred visage and form.