LDS Freedom Forum

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:18 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm A bit of background information: In another thread, Jesef outlined 3 general positions of people on the forum:

Position 1:

Jesef wrote: ↑September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm IF the LDS Church & Brethren are still truly The Lord's chosen (despite any faults, frailties, or mistakes), then Denver Snuffer is truly out of line, he is truly apostate, and he is also pretending to speak for and represent Christ, and has set himself up with competing/opposing divine authenticity claims to the real/true priesthood authority and order of The Lord, i.e. God's kingdom on earth. This would make him little different than any other anti-LDS effort, for he actively criticizes and opposes The Lord's true servants. This would also mean that those who have followed and believed him are in large measure deceived and have cut themselves off from that kingdom (and from exaltation really) and turned against God and his servants - and would require them to repent by returning to said fold via the gate of re baptism (ironically).

Position 2:

Jesef wrote: ↑September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm IF Denver Snuffer's claims and message are true, then the LDS Church is now totally rejected by The Lord, its Brethren are corrupt pretenders, its priesthood authority and ordinances revoked and invalid. This would mean exaltation is no longer available through it. LDS members who pass up this message and invitation to be re-baptized according to Denver's instructions and receive the covenant he claims The Lord has offered Gentiles through him, would be passing up the path to true salvation itself. They would be joining the vast number of Gentiles who are going to be rejected by The Lord and destroyed in the coming tribulations. They would be rejecting the eventual safety of ZION.

Position 3:

Jesef wrote: ↑September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm The third option is that both of these Leaders'/Group's claims are not entirely true/real, leaving all kinds of other doors and options open.

I believe I fall into Position 3... but that is a very large door to be under... so here is a bit of clarification: I suspect that the keys still yet remain with the Church, and that the Brethren still hold all or at least most of their authority. However, it is also becoming clear to me that there is corruption of one kind or another seeping within or into the walls of the Church. To make matters worse... pride and stagnation has been set within the hearts of many among the membership... and that is not a good sign. I plead unto you my brethren, heed the words of our current Prophets and Apostles... for the time in which they have yet to preach upon this earth is limited.

With the Days of Tribulation almost upon us now, it seems clear to me the time is coming when the church will risk being torn apart by said corruption. We read that in Helaman and 3rd Nephi that it only took a few years for the church established among the nephites to go from being completely righteous to completely wicked... to the point where they were even stoning the prophets, and it all started with just a little bit of pride. Many here have pointed out that the Book of Mormon has a secondary purpose of acting as foreshadowing of our day... so, if that is the case then that means that one way or another, the Church itself is going to be in mortal peril. If our current leadership remains righteous, then they could very well be in significant danger from both the government and our own people in just the span of a few years. If they do not remain righteous, then it will cause a Great Schism within the church, and the church will be nearly torn asunder.

Yet the Lord will provide a way to weather the coming storm. The sign in the heavens that many of us have been discussing for the past couple of weeks (The one of the Virgin Giving Birth in Revelations 12) is one of the signs of way which the Lord will provide to signal the way for us to weather the coming days. The sign on 9/23 speaks of the coming of a young man who will be a forbearer to the Lord's second coming, even as John the Baptist was a forbearer to Christ's mortal ministry. This man is known by many names: the Josephite, the Archangel Raphael, Elias: the Son of the Morning, the Soul of Iron, The Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation, The Lord's Maverick, The Lord's Wild Card, and The Marred Servant.

The Marred Servant has several other signs and signature actions by which you can recognize him:

1. He was one of the Great and Noble ones in the Premortal Realm. His loyalty and closeness to Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ during the war in heaven earned him the title of Son of the Morning, taken from Lucifer when he was cast out. It is possible that the Marred Servant is actually the Archangel Raphael. (Personal Revelation revealed this... but I could also cite Abraham 3, as it seems to indicate that most prophets are chosen from among the Great and Noble Ones.)
2. He will be a descendant of Joseph or Hyrum Smith, and thus be a descendant of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. He will also have the blood of Judah flowing through his veins. For this reason he shall be called the Josephite. (Personal Revelation combined with an alternative interpretation of Isaiah 11:1-5, & D&C 113:3-6.)
3. He will take up the mantle of Joseph Smith, and finish what he started. At times, many will mistake him for being a resurrected Joseph Smith. Ultimately, this will result in the Restoration of All Things. For this reason he shall be called Elias. (Again, primary source is Personal Revelation. Related Scriptures would be)
4. He will break conventional thought, tradition, and culture within the church. His relationship with the Father is so strong that conventional thought within the church cannot adequately explain it. Thus he shall be called the Lord's Maverick and the Lord's Wild Card. (Conjecture)
5. His faith and resolve will be unshakable... for this is the reason why he is known as the Soul of Iron. (Personal Revelation and Conjecture; you cannot do what he is going to do WITHOUT unshakable faith.)
6. His eyes shall burn with azure fire when he preaches the gospel. (Personal Revelation. Conjecture: It is well documented in scripture that some prophets sometimes go through a physical change that manages to evoke fear in the wicked. Nephi was one of these prophets, and so too was Joseph Smith. It is reasonable to assume that the Marred Servant would have a similar ability. Eyes that glow with a flaming blue light would be one of the changes brought upon by the spirit when he is preaching.)
7. His voice will be like a thundering lion to the wicked, while like a lamb to the righteous. In this voice will he urge many to repent. (Primarily personal revelation. But again, there are documented accounts in the scriptures of prophets speaking "in a loud voice," so this isn't entirely unprecedented either)
8. Many will heed his voice, but many more will reject him. (Conjecture: In a day where most of the world is wicked and will harden their hearts, curse God and die, it only stands to reason that he would be rejected by many. Backed up by passages in Revelation.)
9. He will be taught in the School of the Prophets, and will be legitimately ordained as an Apostle of the Lord. His ordination will seem to be a miracle to the body of the church. (Personal Revelation)
10. He shall cleanse the church of any and all corruption, and bring us out of condemnation if we haven't already. (Personal Revelation: This goes back to the prompting that I posted about a while ago... the one where I relay that the church will only be brought fully out of condemnation when a righteous descendant of Joseph or Hyrum leads us as the prophet. Can possibly be backed up by the scriptures that tell of Christ cleansing the temple of the money changers. See #12)
11. IF (and that is a big IF) the leadership ever falters or attempts to lead the church astray during his ministry, then he will risk excommunication to set things back on course. If that happens... expect him to stand directly before the Twelve and denounce them. Nevertheless, he will work within the bounds that the Lord set forth in the D&C, whenever possible. (This one is entirely due to Personal Revelation. Conjecture: There are procedures listed in the D&C that were put in place to legitimately remove prophets and apostles from authority... why would those processes be put in place if the Lord had no need to use them? See #12.)
12. All that he does shall be done through legitimate means and authority... both within the church, and within God's Kingdom. (Conjecture: God's house is a house of order. Therefore, anything that the Marred Servant will do, he will do through the proper procedures and with the proper authority.)
13. He shall be marred, both physically and spiritually, but the Lord shall preserve him and will heal him. For this reason shall he be called the Marred Servant.
14. He will be comparable to many other prophets of old in both works and power, particularly Enoch. He will be comparable to Martin Luther with his desires. It is worth noting that many have stated their belief that Raphael may be Enoch... which makes this servant's comparison to him all the more apt.(Personal Revelation)
15. The Lord's testimony of thunderings and lightnings shall come through him, as well as from the Lord's voice directly. (Amos 3:7, D&C 43:17-18. This one is fairly clear cut.)
16. He shall have the miraculous gift to heal others as well as destroy. In fact, part of his mission is to heal the church as a surgeon would heal his patient through making a wound, removing a deadly tumor, then sealing up the wound. For this reason he will be called Raphael.
17. He shall have many spiritual gifts... including that of Dreaming and Prophecy. These gifts will start out somewhat erratic in his life, but shall manifest individually and become refined through practice and the guidance of the hand of the Lord. This will progress at a slow and steady rate, to the point where he shall eventually have access to all spiritual gifts by the time the Lord comes.
18. He shall participate in the meeting on Adam Ondi Ahman, and shall be numbered among the 144,000. (Cojecture: With how much scriptural passages seem to refer to him, it is only natural to assume that he will be a part of the meeting with Adam and Christ, alongside all the other prophets and apostles.)
19. He shall lead the members of the Church back to Independence Missouri and shall establish the city of Zion. He shall be alive and on the earth when Christ comes. Thus he shall be known as the Last Prophet of the Last Dispensation.
20. He shall not taste of death, but shall instead be translated.

Additional Clarification: A good chunk of these signs I cite are due to personal revelation combined with a bit of conjecture... so your mileage may vary. Scriptures can and have provided me some additional insight into some of these notes... but said insight is limited. I am working on adding scriptural references and notes on what is personal revelation and conjecture. It will be in bold.

I am dismayed by this new trend among some on this forum to give alternate interpretations to scriptures in order to use them as some sort of evidence to their own personal beliefs. I noticed it with the reworkings of the 'Davidic Servant' some have been making claims about. I'm still not sure if they are referring to the Messiah Ben David (if they are they are totally off base) or some other 'Davidic Servant' that they're now claiming will come.
Where do you get the name 'Marred Servant'? What scriptural references do you have that give this name? The only scripture I can think of that talks about one 'marred' is referring to our Savior Jesus Christ and I certainly don't agree with taking scriptures that are referring to Jesus and trying to rework them so as to suggest they refer to another, 'new' extraordinary prophet, who frankly, when I read some of your descriptions, could also be suggestive of the Anti christ. He's supposed so do all kinds of miracles and wonders too.

Also, I can't help but be concerned about all these claims shared on the forum of prophets and 'servants' coming forward in the last days, given the very deliberate warning by our Savior and his apostles that one of the conditions of the Last Days would be the emergence of False Christs, False Prophets and False Teachers. This should be a real concern for any who take the scriptural warnings seriously.

I realize that you are claiming personal revelation for these things, and I don't wish to offend, but I do think we need to remember the warning by our Savior when these things are brought up here and for all those on the forum who claim to be receiving revelation, I think they should realize that they could be one of those 'elect' who may be deceived in the last days. It was a real warning and we should not brush it off. The dangers of finding oneself following a false prophet is very real, we see a lot of it these days.

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 4:43 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 4:16 pm That's a really interesting idea. I haven't considered that before and yes, that illustrates my point exactly. We all make assumptions and we need to be careful.

Thanks for sharing that. I'll have to think on that more. What do you think of Gileadi's translation though?

just as he appalled many—
his appearance was marred beyond human likeness,
his semblance unlike that of men—

I tend to think he's probably got the best translation of Isaiah out there and it looks like its pretty clearly talking about physical form. Would other people be appalled by his "spiritual form" that they can't even see?

That's the thing - who is "many"? Knowing who "many" is may help understand both what the marring is what its purpose is. Here's the original for comparison:

Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:The healing reveals the Lord's wisdom rather than his power. So his marring shows a layer of wisdom. This is why I believe "many" may be those on the other side of the veil.

Here's more of 3 Nephi for context to help us decode who "many" is:

3 Nephi 21:9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

Aha! Could it be the devil and his minions? The healing shows that the Lord's wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. So what is the cunning of the devil with regards to the Davidic Servant? I think Revelation 12 holds the answer:

JST Revelation 12:4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born. (JST words italicized)

So the Dragon is waiting ... waiting ... ready to devour the child after it was born. Why not before? He can't do it before because he can't see him:

Isaiah 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

So the marring could have physical aspects, but I absolutely believe at this point that the primary aspect is spiritual - to hide him from the adversary. This is why I'm concerned that the gadiantons are poised to strike even now - ready to do their master's bidding. This would include people as part of "they" in addition to the rebellion, but it is the rebellion who is blind to him on the spiritual plane. They know who this man is and they hate him. They hate who he is, what he will do, and what he has already done:

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Though I believe in MMP, verse 10 sounds to me like the Davidic Servant accomplished this feat from the other side of the veil.

Edit: As far as Gileadi, I have tremendous respect and gratitude for his work. However, I have found where he has bent translations to his interpretation. A perfect example of this is Isaiah 9:6. Though I believe Gileadi is correct in understanding that Isaiah 9:6 is about the Davidic Servant and not Jesus Christ, I have delved deep into the translation of that verse - and what the Isaiah scroll says. The name Wonderful Counseler, The mighty God ... there is evidence this is a single, long name like Mahershalalhashbaz. So the fact that EL or "God" is part of the name does not mean the verse is about God as EL is in many Biblical names - Ezekiel, Elijah, etc. Gileadi translates "Mighty God" as "Mighty Man of Valor" - nope. EL is in there. (EL means God in Hebrew.)

Edit: Edit: Here is a great link to what the Isaiah scroll (the oldest copy of Isaiah by far) reveals about Isaiah 9:6 The word is Elgibor rather than "El Gibor" in other, more recent editions of Isaiah. So if Ezekiel or Elijah were written as separate words, they would be separate words rather than a name. Elgibor is a name that means "God is a Warrior" as one possible translation. You can't take the EL out of the translation however. Gileadi did. Minus points for Gileadi.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_isaiahscroll.html

Edit: edit: edit: I eat my words. El can mean "Mighty" and Gibor ... get this ... can mean "Strong One" Did you get that? Rather than "The mighty God" Elgibor can be translated to mean: "Mighty and Strong One"

Here is my source - this guy's final conclusion is wrong as he doesn't have D&C 85:7 to reign him in on Elgibor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXPnrhvxrZg

El meaning "Mighty" rather than God - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

Gibor meaning "Strong One" http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Gibor

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by blot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:32 pm

clarkkent14 wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 3:12 pm

gangbusters wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pmI'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.

God works in patterns. He's done it once, why not again?

TPJS p.275-6 wrote:The Greatness and Mission of John the Baptist

The question arose from the saying of Jesus--"Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." How is it that John was considered one of the greatest prophets? His miracles could not have constituted his greatness.

First. He was entrusted with a divine mission of preparing the way before the face of the Lord. Whoever had such a trust committed to him before or since? No man.

Secondly. He was entrusted with the important mission, and it was required at his hands, to baptize the Son of Man. Whoever had the honor of doing that? Whoever had so great a privilege and glory? Whoever led the Son of God into the waters of baptism, and had the privilege of beholding the Holy Ghost descend in the form of a dove, or rather in the sign of the dove, in witness of that administration? The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence.

Thirdly. John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law; and Christ Himself fulfilled all righteousness in becoming obedient to the law which he had given to Moses on the mount, and thereby magnified it and made it honorable, instead of destroying it. The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven, and these three reasons constitute him the greatest prophet born of a woman.

Who says this can't be done again?

I wondered why this kept being emphasized by posters on the forum (Joseph Smith's quote about John the Baptist wresting keys) and I wasn't at all surprised when I found where it came from in Denver Snuffer's writings--it's one of the things he's brought out and emphasized to bolster his claims and I see the Snuffer followers do know their 'talking points'. It's clear you all are reading Denver Snuffer's writings, though I'm not so sure you all are reading the scriptures as well.

You want to know why it can't be done again? Because this IS the last dispensation and we're still in it. I don't care what Snuffer says, he's wrong and he's clearly falling into the trap so many of these kinds find themselves in as they being to come up with all kinds of grandiose beliefs about themselves. The phrase 'for the last time' means exactly what it says--for the last time, not 'for the most recent time'. Denver Snuffer's parsing on these words reminds me of Bill Clinton opining on what 'is' means.

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:40 pm

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 4:43 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 4:16 pm That's a really interesting idea. I haven't considered that before and yes, that illustrates my point exactly. We all make assumptions and we need to be careful.

Thanks for sharing that. I'll have to think on that more. What do you think of Gileadi's translation though?

just as he appalled many—
his appearance was marred beyond human likeness,
his semblance unlike that of men—

I tend to think he's probably got the best translation of Isaiah out there and it looks like its pretty clearly talking about physical form. Would other people be appalled by his "spiritual form" that they can't even see?

That's the thing - who is "many"? Knowing who "many" is may help understand both what the marring is what its purpose is. Here's the original for comparison:

Isaiah 52:14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:The healing reveals the Lord's wisdom rather than his power. So his marring shows a layer of wisdom. This is why I believe "many" may be those on the other side of the veil.

Here's more of 3 Nephi for context to help us decode who "many" is:

3 Nephi 21:9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.
10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

Aha! Could it be the devil and his minions? The healing shows that the Lord's wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. So what is the cunning of the devil with regards to the Davidic Servant? I think Revelation 12 holds the answer:

JST Revelation 12:4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born. (JST words italicized)

So the Dragon is waiting ... waiting ... ready to devour the child after it was born. Why not before? He can't do it before because he can't see him:

Isaiah 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

So the marring could have physical aspects, but I absolutely believe at this point that the primary aspect is spiritual - to hide him from the adversary. This is why I'm concerned that the gadiantons are poised to strike even now - ready to do their master's bidding. This would include people as part of "they" in addition to the rebellion, but it is the rebellion who is blind to him on the spiritual plane. They know who this man is and they hate him. They hate who he is, what he will do, and what he has already done:

Isaiah 51:9 ¶ Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; awake, as in the ancient days, in the generations of old. Art thou not it that hath cut Rahab, and wounded the dragon?

10 Art thou not it which hath dried the sea, the waters of the great deep; that hath made the depths of the sea a way for the ransomed to pass over?

11 Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away.

Though I believe in MMP, verse 10 sounds to me like the Davidic Servant accomplished this feat from the other side of the veil.

Edit: As far as Gileadi, I have tremendous respect and gratitude for his work. However, I have found where he has bent translations to his interpretation. A perfect example of this is Isaiah 9:6. Though I believe Gileadi is correct in understanding that Isaiah 9:6 is about the Davidic Servant and not Jesus Christ, I have delved deep into the translation of that verse - and what the Isaiah scroll says. The name Wonderful Counseler, The mighty God ... there is evidence this is a single, long name like Mahershalalhashbaz. So the fact that EL or "God" is part of the name does not mean the verse is about God as EL is in many Biblical names - Ezekiel, Elijah, etc. Gileadi translates "Mighty God" as "Mighty Man of Valor" - nope. EL is in there. (EL means God in Hebrew.)

Edit: Edit: Here is a great link to what the Isaiah scroll (the oldest copy of Isaiah by far) reveals about Isaiah 9:6 The word is Elgibor rather than "El Gibor" in other, more recent editions of Isaiah. So if Ezekiel or Elijah were written as separate words, they would be separate words rather than a name. Elgibor is a name that means "God is a Warrior" as one possible translation. You can't take the EL out of the translation however. Gileadi did. Minus points for Gileadi.

http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_isaiahscroll.html

Edit: edit: edit: I eat my words. El can mean "Mighty" and Gibor ... get this ... can mean "Strong One" Did you get that? Rather than "The mighty God" Elgibor can be translated to mean: "Mighty and Strong One"

Here is my source - this guy's final conclusion is wrong as he doesn't have D&C 85:7 to reign him in on Elgibor:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXPnrhvxrZg

El meaning "Mighty" rather than God - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

Gibor meaning "Strong One" http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Gibor

D&C 85:7 And it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God, will send one mighty and strong, holding the scepter of power in his hand, clothed with light for a covering, whose mouth shall utter words, eternal words; while his bowels shall be a fountain of truth, to set in order the house of God, and to arrange by blot the inheritances of the saints whose names are found, and the names of their fathers, and of their children, enrolled in the book of the law of God;

Interesting stuff. What do you think about the idea that it might mean both? Maybe he's marred spiritually throughout life to hide who he is, but later marred physically as well. It could be another example of scripture with more than one meaning. I dunno, I can see your points now that you've laid it out, but I just really think that the wording of the verses points towards a physical marring still for some reason. Though, I will certainly keep an open mind and would do my best to recognize him even without that.

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:03 pm

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 4:43 pm So the Dragon is waiting ... waiting ... ready to devour the child after it was born. Why not before? He can't do it before because he can't see him:

Isaiah 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

So the marring could have physical aspects, but I absolutely believe at this point that the primary aspect is spiritual - to hide him from the adversary.

That's not my understanding. My understanding is that the adversary knows exactly who the Josephite is, just as he knew who Joseph Smith was when he went into the grove. For all we know, the adversary has already spiritually attacked the man, like he attacked Joseph Smith, and that would make sense. The best time for attack is when he is weak. But the guy survived, just as Joseph Smith survived, and perhaps it was for the very same reasons, too. In other words, God intervened. So, what, then, does the adversary do? If he has attacked already, and was defeated because the man called upon God for protection, just as Joseph Smith did, and God intervened, then doing the same thing twice is ineffective, because he'll just keep calling upon God for help.

So that leaves human agents under the adversary's control or influence. The Josephite undoubtedly has enemies, and while he is weak is the only time he's vulnerable, so Satan will inspire those under his control and influence to hinder the man as much as possible. But if and when God decides it's time to hide the man, then now what does the adversary do? If the man is currently hidden, this means his enemies are no longer a problem to him. Perhaps they have destroyed his works, but so what? Once empowered, he'll re-establish them and dish out curses to them. The hiding of the Josephite, then, can only serve as a physical protection from Satan's servants, not the enemies of the Josephite, but the people who can be inspired to "go kill that man" by Satan. Go kill what man, where? He's off the freaking radar! Satan knows exactly where he is, but unless one of his servants can receive direct revelation, there is no way to communicate the message to "go over here, look for this particular man and kill him."

The adversary, then, is out of options. He knows where he is, but cannot inspire anybody to kill him, because he's in a spot that's waaaay out of the way, where people don't normally go, and he's off the radar, so the normal ways of finding someone don't apply to this man. You would need to have the precise location he's at, and his picture, and his name, etc., and then it would do no good to simply send somebody over there, to hinder him some more. No, an assassination needs to take place. He needs to be killed, otherwise he still poses a danger to Satan. So, the only thing the adversary can do is tempt the man and try to make his life as hard as possible. Perhaps he'll fall into temptation, or get frustrated and give up or something. But then the man might repent, or get right back up and try again. He's got an indomitable, never give up attitude, after all. The adversary's only strategy, barring that he can inspire the man to take his own life out of frustration because be can't yet get out of the box, is to stall him. That's the most the adversary can do, while this man is hidden.

Now, there are nine days left before this shadow sign takes place. So, what can those who believe that there really is a servant about to be empowered do? After all, although this is between him and his God (with Satan on the side trying to mess things up), there might be other factors involved, as well. The saints can, and should, pray for this man to be taken out of his box. We ought to be praying day and night for his faith to be made unshaken and empowered, and for him to be delivered from his box. It may be that this process has been going on for a very long time, for all we know, but God's been looking out at the population, and sees that no one's praying for His servant, therefore, perhaps He has said "They are not worthy to have him, yet." But if God sees that the saints are praying mightily for His servant's release, it might appear to God that the church (the woman) is sort of travailing to be delivered of her child (the Josephite), and so He might say, "His prayers are enough; and now their prayers are also enough. I will release him now."

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:26 pm

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:19 pm The rebellion may see him but they certainly don't recognize him imho.

The rebellion? Are you referring to the one-third who rebelled in heaven?

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:30 pm

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:26 pm

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:19 pm The rebellion may see him but they certainly don't recognize him imho.

The rebellion? Are you referring to the one-third who rebelled in heaven?

Yes.

SmallFarm wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:26 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 3:03 pm

gangbusters wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 2:06 pm

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 1:46 pm

Agreed. I believe most if not all of the brethren would be on board if this were an eventuality. And if this were to happen, there would absolutely be a schism that possibly went all the way to the top. I personally feel this schism would be a microcosm of how rebellions are created, but that's just my deep personal feeling on the matter.

Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.

I'm not a follower of Denver, but one of his supporters, Adrian Larsen, did a really good job researching that quote and I remember it came up on this forum some time ago. That quote is almost certainly false. Don't bank on something like that. Stick to the signs the Lord gave us to recognize the marred servant and don't worry what others are doing. What if the church leadership goes the way of the pharisees and decides to cling to their own power and prestige rather than follow the marred servant? Would you really want to stick with them then? What if that is a test we have to face just like the ancient israelites did? Do you stick with the leaders of the church or follow the homeless guy performing miracles while flaunting the man made rules of the church (That's what Christ did)?

http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html

What do you think of the Farnsworth Vision?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29181&hilit=The+Farnsworth+Vision

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:22 pm As for the marring, my understanding is that this scripture refers to the Josephite:

But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. (3 Nephi 21:10)

and indicates a physical marring, which I have taught will merely be that the man will be circumcised. So, this marring won't be something we can normally see. (Seeing a man walking around naked isn't normal, after all.) And when he is released from his box, he will either be immediately healed, or will heal himself immediately afterward, becoming intact, so again, this won't be something we will see.

3 Nephi 20 wrote: 44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:46 pm

SmallFarm wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:26 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 3:03 pm

gangbusters wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 2:06 pm

Welp, if such a thing does happen and there's a schism, hopefully the 12 doesn't evenly split for and against, as JS counseled to follow the majority of the 12 in such an event.

I'm not a follower of Denver, but one of his supporters, Adrian Larsen, did a really good job researching that quote and I remember it came up on this forum some time ago. That quote is almost certainly false. Don't bank on something like that. Stick to the signs the Lord gave us to recognize the marred servant and don't worry what others are doing. What if the church leadership goes the way of the pharisees and decides to cling to their own power and prestige rather than follow the marred servant? Would you really want to stick with them then? What if that is a test we have to face just like the ancient israelites did? Do you stick with the leaders of the church or follow the homeless guy performing miracles while flaunting the man made rules of the church (That's what Christ did)?

http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html

What do you think of the Farnsworth Vision?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29181&hilit=The+Farnsworth+Vision

Hmm, I'm not sure what to make of that. Do you know when that was recorded? Do we know for sure it was actually written in Nauvoo before Joseph died? Anyway, a few things sound like they could be talking about a future event, but Brigham is clearly mentioned in that event and his time has passed, so if its applicable to this discussion I guess I'm not really seeing it. How do you see it applying to this discussion?

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:43 pm

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:32 pm

clarkkent14 wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 3:12 pm

gangbusters wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 1:40 pmI'm really late to this discussion and haven't been following it closely, so excuse me if I missed something, but if the church is one day "fulfilled," one would assume the declaration would come through the church itself and not someone from outside it, right? I wouldn't blame anyone for disregarding someone who suddenly rose up and said the church is fulfilled and we didn't need it anymore. I sure wouldn't pay any attention.

God works in patterns. He's done it once, why not again?

TPJS p.275-6 wrote:The Greatness and Mission of John the Baptist

The question arose from the saying of Jesus--"Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist; but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." How is it that John was considered one of the greatest prophets? His miracles could not have constituted his greatness.

First. He was entrusted with a divine mission of preparing the way before the face of the Lord. Whoever had such a trust committed to him before or since? No man.

Secondly. He was entrusted with the important mission, and it was required at his hands, to baptize the Son of Man. Whoever had the honor of doing that? Whoever had so great a privilege and glory? Whoever led the Son of God into the waters of baptism, and had the privilege of beholding the Holy Ghost descend in the form of a dove, or rather in the sign of the dove, in witness of that administration? The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence.

Thirdly. John, at that time, was the only legal administrator in the affairs of the kingdom there was then on the earth, and holding the keys of power. The Jews had to obey his instructions or be damned, by their own law; and Christ Himself fulfilled all righteousness in becoming obedient to the law which he had given to Moses on the mount, and thereby magnified it and made it honorable, instead of destroying it. The son of Zacharias wrested the keys, the kingdom, the power, the glory from the Jews, by the holy anointing and decree of heaven, and these three reasons constitute him the greatest prophet born of a woman.

Who says this can't be done again?

I wondered why this kept being emphasized by posters on the forum (Joseph Smith's quote about John the Baptist wresting keys) and I wasn't at all surprised when I found where it came from in Denver Snuffer's writings--it's one of the things he's brought out and emphasized to bolster his claims and I see the Snuffer followers do know their 'talking points'. It's clear you all are reading Denver Snuffer's writings, though I'm not so sure you all are reading the scriptures as well.

You want to know why it can't be done again? Because this IS the last dispensation and we're still in it. I don't care what Snuffer says, he's wrong and he's clearly falling into the trap so many of these kinds find themselves in as they being to come up with all kinds of grandiose beliefs about themselves. The phrase 'for the last time' means exactly what it says--for the last time, not 'for the most recent time'. Denver Snuffer's parsing on these words reminds me of Bill Clinton opining on what 'is' means.

I've been meaning to say the following. Here seems as an appropriate place as any. Here are the problems with Snuffer:

A. He's sold books. That sounds silly, but there's no way the Lord would ever risk his end times servant profiting off his knowledge. Not ever. Not before he's called. Not after. Nope.
B. Pride. Pride, imho, is why 90 percent never return to the church who are excommunicated and pride is why Denver Snuffer never returned.

I do not want to derail this thread - the point clarkkent14 made is a valid one but does not make Denver Snuffer a profit nor does it necessarily mean the Davidic Servant will wrest the keys from the church.

Despite clarkkent14's nearly 2,000 posts I've only seen what he has posted recently, and he has only been respectful in his replies I've seen today. The fruits of other snufferites and fundamentalists who come here are sometimes these:

A. Bullying. Down deep they know they are wrong. They aren't here to convert us LDS but to destroy our beliefs to make them feel better about their apostasy. This is essentially bullying. Bullies were almost always bullied first by someone else - usually a family member. That deep hurt becomes a cycle of bullying until someone stands up to them firmly.
B. They are irrational. There are leaps of logic and false conclusions and all sorts of red flags that are fruits of the spirit of confusion not the Spirit of the Lord.

So I do appreciate your efforts to do this AI 2.0. I kindly suggest that perhaps your zeal in punching down the bullying sometimes creeps into shutting down conversations that don't need such protection.

alaris wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:43 pm A. He's sold books. That sounds silly, but there's no way the Lord would ever risk his end times servant profiting off his knowledge. Not ever. Not before he's called. Not after. Nope.

Isaiah 55:1 wrote: 1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

SmallFarm wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:00 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:46 pm

SmallFarm wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:26 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 3:03 pm
I'm not a follower of Denver, but one of his supporters, Adrian Larsen, did a really good job researching that quote and I remember it came up on this forum some time ago. That quote is almost certainly false. Don't bank on something like that. Stick to the signs the Lord gave us to recognize the marred servant and don't worry what others are doing. What if the church leadership goes the way of the pharisees and decides to cling to their own power and prestige rather than follow the marred servant? Would you really want to stick with them then? What if that is a test we have to face just like the ancient israelites did? Do you stick with the leaders of the church or follow the homeless guy performing miracles while flaunting the man made rules of the church (That's what Christ did)?

http://www.totheremnant.com/2014/07/his ... art-2.html

What do you think of the Farnsworth Vision?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29181&hilit=The+Farnsworth+Vision

Hmm, I'm not sure what to make of that. Do you know when that was recorded? Do we know for sure it was actually written in Nauvoo before Joseph died? Anyway, a few things sound like they could be talking about a future event, but Brigham is clearly mentioned in that event and his time has passed, so if its applicable to this discussion I guess I'm not really seeing it. How do you see it applying to this discussion?

Just a second witness that there is safety in sticking it out. This version came from my Book of Remembrance and I would assume is the original passed on through the generations (I'm a direct descendant of SM Farnsworth). It differs somewhat from the more widely presented version. Also, while it lists Brigham and the other Apostles that were around then, I think they symbolize the apostleship in general, but that is my interpretation =)

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:02 pm

SmallFarm wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:00 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:46 pm

SmallFarm wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 5:26 pm

What do you think of the Farnsworth Vision?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=29181&hilit=The+Farnsworth+Vision

Hmm, I'm not sure what to make of that. Do you know when that was recorded? Do we know for sure it was actually written in Nauvoo before Joseph died? Anyway, a few things sound like they could be talking about a future event, but Brigham is clearly mentioned in that event and his time has passed, so if its applicable to this discussion I guess I'm not really seeing it. How do you see it applying to this discussion?

Just a second witness that there is safety in sticking it out. This version came from my Book of Remembrance and I would assume is the original passed on through the generations (I'm a direct descendant of SM Farnsworth). It differs somewhat from the more widely presented version. Also, while it lists Brigham and the other Apostles that were around then, I think they symbolize the apostleship in general, but that is my interpretation =)

Could be, or maybe it really was about some trouble they faced in Brighams day. Its hard to know. Thanks for sharing.

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:38 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:01 pm Everyone has a right to earn a living from their work, but in this case, by his own words, its not his work, its Gods and it all came from the spirit. If that were the case and if God wanted it released to the public, he would not charge money for it. He never has and never will.

Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon, which was the absolute word of God, printed 5000 copies of it, I think, and then sold them to the public.

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:31 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:51 pm

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:22 pm As for the marring, my understanding is that this scripture refers to the Josephite:

But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. (3 Nephi 21:10)

and indicates a physical marring, which I have taught will merely be that the man will be circumcised. So, this marring won't be something we can normally see. (Seeing a man walking around naked isn't normal, after all.) And when he is released from his box, he will either be immediately healed, or will heal himself immediately afterward, becoming intact, so again, this won't be something we will see.

No way its circumcision.

3 Nephi 20 wrote: 44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

Thats 3 Nephi 20, Visage and form are marred or face and body.

I don't necessarily equate Isaiah 52:13-15 --->

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: so shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

or 3 Nephi 20:43-45 ---->

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—so shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

with 3 Nephi 21:10

But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

The 3 Nephi 21:10 scripture is talking about the Josephite. That much I know. And I teach that his physical marring will be a circumcision, which will later be healed, after he is empowered.

But as for the Isaiah scripture, (and I'll use the Book of Mormon scripture from here on), there can be more than one person being spoken of:

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently [one guy]; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high [same guy or different guy?]. As many were astonished at thee [at who? the one guy or a different guy?]—his visage [whose visage? the one guy or a different guy?] was so marred, more than any man, and his form [whose form?
the one guy or a different guy?] more than the sons of men—so shall he [who? the one guy? or a different guy?] sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him [at who? the one guy or a different guy?], for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Those who believe that the above scripture applies to one person, whether that person is Christ or a Davidic Servant, apply each part of it to that one person. But I don't read it that way. This passage does not strike me as if every part of it is speaking of just one person. So, until I learn who each part is speaking of, I'm not ready to make the call as to exactly who this scripture is referring to. I certainly haven't received any revelation concerning this passage, like I did with the 3 Nephi 21 passage. Has anyone claimed to have received revelation about this passage? I'm gonna guess that no one has received revelation on this passage. And yet people quote this passage as if it absolutely refers to either Christ or the David Servant, applying the entire passage to one or the other of these people. Without revelation.

Now, if someone comes forward and says, "The Holy Ghost said such and such about this passage," well, then that's different. And those claims can be tested. But so far, it seems to me that people are just engaging in guessing about its meaning.

3 Nephi 20 wrote: 43 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high.

44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

45 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

3 Nephi 21 wrote: 8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

SmallFarm wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:04 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:02 pm

SmallFarm wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:00 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:46 pm
Hmm, I'm not sure what to make of that. Do you know when that was recorded? Do we know for sure it was actually written in Nauvoo before Joseph died? Anyway, a few things sound like they could be talking about a future event, but Brigham is clearly mentioned in that event and his time has passed, so if its applicable to this discussion I guess I'm not really seeing it. How do you see it applying to this discussion?

Just a second witness that there is safety in sticking it out. This version came from my Book of Remembrance and I would assume is the original passed on through the generations (I'm a direct descendant of SM Farnsworth). It differs somewhat from the more widely presented version. Also, while it lists Brigham and the other Apostles that were around then, I think they symbolize the apostleship in general, but that is my interpretation =)

Could be, or maybe it really was about some trouble they faced in Brighams day. Its hard to know. Thanks for sharing.

I don't recall any heavenly visitors coming to the aid of the saints in Utah and then leading them on to Missouri. You're welcome

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 7:31 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:51 pm

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:22 pm As for the marring, my understanding is that this scripture refers to the Josephite:

But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil. (3 Nephi 21:10)

and indicates a physical marring, which I have taught will merely be that the man will be circumcised. So, this marring won't be something we can normally see. (Seeing a man walking around naked isn't normal, after all.) And when he is released from his box, he will either be immediately healed, or will heal himself immediately afterward, becoming intact, so again, this won't be something we will see.

No way its circumcision.

3 Nephi 20 wrote: 44 As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—

Thats 3 Nephi 20, Visage and form are marred or face and body.

I don't necessarily equate Isaiah 52:13-15 --->

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high. As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: so shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

or 3 Nephi 20:43-45 ---->

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. As many were astonished at thee—his visage was so marred, more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—so shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him, for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

with 3 Nephi 21:10

But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

The 3 Nephi 21:10 scripture is talking about the Josephite. That much I know. And I teach that his physical marring will be a circumcision, which will later be healed, after he is empowered.

But as for the Isaiah scripture, (and I'll use the Book of Mormon scripture from here on), there can be more than one person being spoken of:

Behold, my servant shall deal prudently [one guy]; he shall be exalted and extolled and be very high [same guy or different guy?]. As many were astonished at thee [at who? the one guy or a different guy?]—his visage [whose visage? the one guy or a different guy?] was so marred, more than any man, and his form [whose form?
the one guy or a different guy?] more than the sons of men—so shall he [who? the one guy? or a different guy?] sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him [at who? the one guy or a different guy?], for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

Those who believe that the above scripture applies to one person, whether that person is Christ or a Davidic Servant, apply each part of it to that one person. But I don't read it that way. This passage does not strike me as if every part of it is speaking of just one person. So, until I learn who each part is speaking of, I'm not ready to make the call as to exactly who this scripture is referring to. I certainly haven't received any revelation concerning this passage, like I did with the 3 Nephi 21 passage. Has anyone claimed to have received revelation about this passage? I'm gonna guess that no one has received revelation on this passage. And yet people quote this passage as if it absolutely refers to either Christ or the David Servant, applying the entire passage to one or the other of these people. Without revelation.

Now, if someone comes forward and says, "The Holy Ghost said such and such about this passage," well, then that's different. And those claims can be tested. But so far, it seems to me that people are just engaging in guessing about its meaning.

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 6:03 pm Now, there are nine days left before this shadow sign takes place. So, what can those who believe that there really is a servant about to be empowered do? After all, although this is between him and his God (with Satan on the side trying to mess things up), there might be other factors involved, as well. The saints can, and should, pray for this man to be taken out of his box. We ought to be praying day and night for his faith to be made unshaken and empowered, and for him to be delivered from his box. It may be that this process has been going on for a very long time, for all we know, but God's been looking out at the population, and sees that no one's praying for His servant, therefore, perhaps He has said "They are not worthy to have him, yet." But if God sees that the saints are praying mightily for His servant's release, it might appear to God that the church (the woman) is sort of travailing to be delivered of her child (the Josephite), and so He might say, "His prayers are enough; and now their prayers are also enough. I will release him now."

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 8:36 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 8:23 pm

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Both are marred, both talk about kings shutting their mouths, sure looks like the same guy to me. What are the chances its talking about 2 different marred guys who both get kings to shut their mouths and both appear at the same time in the last days?

Was Christ marred, would you say? Think that scourging he got with the cat-o-nine tails marred him a bit?

Notice that the scripture above says "my words." Are the kings going to shut their mouths at the guy who declares the words, or at the words of Christ that he declares? Or both? Will the guy who declares be marred? Or just Christ? Or both?

Notice "the redundancy" in the above scripture: "which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles"? You think those two "hims" are the same guy?

8 And when that day shall come, it shall come to pass that kings shall shut their mouths; for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.

9 For in that day, for my sake shall the Father work a work, which shall be a great and a marvelous work among them; and there shall be among them those who will not believe it, although a man shall declare it unto them.

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 8:36 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 8:23 pm

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Both are marred, both talk about kings shutting their mouths, sure looks like the same guy to me. What are the chances its talking about 2 different marred guys who both get kings to shut their mouths and both appear at the same time in the last days?

Was Christ marred, would you say? Think that scourging he got with the cat-o-nine tails marred him a bit?

Notice that the scripture above says "my words." Are the kings going to shut their mouths at the guy who declares the words, or at the words of Christ that he declares? Or both? Will the guy who declares be marred? Or just Christ? Or both?

Notice "the redundancy" in the above scripture: "which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles"? You think those two "hims" are the same guy?

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 9:14 pm

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 8:36 pm

Rensai wrote: ↑September 14th, 2017, 8:23 pm

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Both are marred, both talk about kings shutting their mouths, sure looks like the same guy to me. What are the chances its talking about 2 different marred guys who both get kings to shut their mouths and both appear at the same time in the last days?

Was Christ marred, would you say? Think that scourging he got with the cat-o-nine tails marred him a bit?

Notice that the scripture above says "my words." Are the kings going to shut their mouths at the guy who declares the words, or at the words of Christ that he declares? Or both? Will the guy who declares be marred? Or just Christ? Or both?

Notice "the redundancy" in the above scripture: "which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles"? You think those two "hims" are the same guy?

ok, on further thought I think I see what you are saying, and to answer the question, yes, the word him absolutely refers to the same guy. when you use the word him/her it always refer's to the last identifiable person mentioned or one about to be mentioned. If Christ were speaking about himself he would have said I, not him. So who is the last identified person Christ is speaking about?

10 But behold, the life of my servant shall be in my hand; therefore they shall not hurt him, although he shall be marred because of them. Yet I will heal him, for I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil.

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

Every instance of Him or He in these verses refer back to the servant because he is the last person identified that Christ is speaking about.

LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 15th, 2017, 11:52 am

alaris wrote: ↑September 15th, 2017, 1:27 am In verse 11 it sounds like the last call to the gentiles. Perhaps this last call is in conjunction with Matthew 24 where the Lord says the gospel will be preached to the whole world before the second coming. I believe this will be done in relatively short order, though I could be wrong on that account.

This part speaks of Joseph-Nephi, whose ministry is spoken of as being in the spirit of power:

Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

This part does not speak of Joseph-Nephi. It speaks of either Joseph Smith, or of John the Relevator. I am not, yet, sure, but I am leaning more towards it being John these days:

Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.

The two hims here are two different people. The Savior was possibly using his hands and showing a vision of the men while he said these words, pointing to the one with one hand and saying "the Father shall cause him..." and then pointing to the other man seen in vision with the other hand and saying "and shall give unto him power..."

Z2100 wrote: ↑September 15th, 2017, 11:54 am I'm starting to believe that the Davidic Servant, or the this guy we're currently talking about, will come/return on September 23. IF the Second Coming is in 2033, then I expect to see HUGE changes come about in the church and the world. I would fully expect to live to see the sealed portion of the BoM revealed!

I also believe that Denver Snuffer is one of those false prophets" that would come to influence before the real one came.

To those who “fear” or reverence God, the messianic planet Jupiter’s gestation in the womb of the Virgo Constellation, and of its “birth” on September 23rd 2017,

Rensai wrote: ↑September 15th, 2017, 2:09 pm

Z2100 wrote: ↑September 15th, 2017, 11:54 am I'm starting to believe that the Davidic Servant, or the this guy we're currently talking about, will come/return on September 23. IF the Second Coming is in 2033, then I expect to see HUGE changes come about in the church and the world. I would fully expect to live to see the sealed portion of the BoM revealed!

I also believe that Denver Snuffer is one of those false prophets" that would come to influence before the real one came.

I agree about Denver and I think Sept 23rd will be significant for the servant, but it may not be the day he goes public either.

Its possible it'll happen on the 23rd, but it might be a little after that. I was looking at stellarium the other day because the Gileadi blog Alaris shared says:
http://www.isaiahinstitute.com/2017/09/ ... 2017s.html

To those who “fear” or reverence God, the messianic planet Jupiter’s gestation in the womb of the Virgo Constellation, and of its “birth” on September 23rd 2017,

The problem is, the Sign happens on the 23rd, but Jupiter isn't actually birthed till around the middle of October when you look at it in Stellarium, he stays put in virgo til then. So I think we may see something on the 23rd, but it may just mark something important to the servant, like Joseph getting to meet God in the grove. The whole world didn't know about that and may not know what happens on the 23rd either. One way or another though, I think he will have to go public pretty soon though.