LDS Freedom Forum

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm Position 3:

Jesef wrote: ↑September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm The third option is that both of these Leaders'/Group's claims are not entirely true/real, leaving all kinds of other doors and options open.

Another zombie snuffer thread back from the dead. Speaking of the walking dead, actually the "all kinds of doors and options" thing brings to mind, "wide is the way that leadeth to the deaths." (D&C 132)

EdGoble wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 2:30 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm Position 3:

Jesef wrote: ↑September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm The third option is that both of these Leaders'/Group's claims are not entirely true/real, leaving all kinds of other doors and options open.

Great. Yet another snuffer thread. Actually the "all kinds of doors and options" thing brings to mind, "wide is the way that leadeth to the deaths." (D&C 132.

*Eyes flash*

Not if I have anything to say about it. Denver Snuffer is a false prophet who was brought into existence as one by the devil in an attempt to discredit both the LDS church and the Marred Servant himself (by posing as him). I'd put my faith in the church over him or his compatriots any day, but that doesn't mean that I don't take what happens in the Church with a grain of salt.

The third option is a grayscale EdGlobe. Just because I fall in that option doesn't mean I support him or any of the other decoy prophets. President Nelson is the Prophet of the LDS Church and I will sustain him as such. Until the unlikely event occurs where God explicitly tells me otherwise after much fasting and prayer, that ain't gonna change.

I used that old quote from Jesef as a springboard into the topic of the Marred Servant. This thread has never been about Denver Snuffer, nor will I ever let that happen, as that is not the primary purpose of this thread.

That being said, I welcome differing thoughts and opinions from all sources, so long as they stick to the topic and remain respectful.

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 2:07 pm
Yes, I believe when Satan tempted him in Eden, in reality all he was doing was attempting to steal his basic role as the “bringer of light”, who was truly foreordained to come in the endtime, to share with mankind the secret of how to be “like unto the Gods”, that they might bear the heat of Christ’s Second Coming. Satan also had that knowledge, and even the very title (which he lost on account of high treason); hence his behaviour as per the Endowment. It was his cunning there (with the ignorance of Adam, and weakness of Eve) which enabled him to improperly wrest from Adam the rightful birthright over the world, and the title of “Lord of all the Earth”. This is why he could stand to make such such presumptions as “I am the god of this world”, “I also am a son of God”, and why Jesus refers to him as “the prince of this world”. What Satan usurped and stole from Adam, in Eden, gave him that power.

However, I submit that in the endtime, vengeance will be made, and the true Lucifer will once more put down the false, in a very personal revenge against his enemy from the first.

No Abijah, vengeance won't be taken on this matter. The Marred Servant does not seek vengeance on Satan for Satan usurping his place as "the prince of this world." That is Satan's delusion, not the Servant's. The Marred Servant actually cares very little about such things, as his eyes are upon the bigger picture.

If anyone is seeking vengeance, it is Satan who seeks it. Satan seeks vengeance upon the Marred Servant for turning against him. You see, Adam, Lucifer, Jesus Christ, and the Marred Servant were all once close friends during the premortal life. All four were among the Noble and Great Ones, with Christ the Firstborn as the Greatest of God's Children. Back then, the bonds of friendship were stronger, tighter, and more powerful than they currently are here on earth... and as such, it was beyond comprehension. They trusted each other absolutely, and understood that they would support one another even through the darkest of trials.

To make things even more tragic, all four friends were close with Heavenly Father, and were involved in the development of the Plan of Salvation from the very moment it became a gleam in His eye, and all four were destined to play major roles in fulfilling it. If only they knew the full extent of what would happen the day that the plan was revealed (Christ likely did).

On that fateful day when the Plan was presented by the Father, Adam and the Marred Servant were there to witness and participate in the battle that was about to unfold. We all know what happened: Satan presented his anti-agency amendment and volunteered to be savior. However, Heavenly Father rejected it and confirmed Jesus Christ as the Savior. Lucifer rebelled in a fit of rage and rallied 1/3 of the hosts of heaven in open war against God. Adam rallied the hosts loyal to God in defense and support of Christ. Note that I don't know if all of the remaining two thirds of heaven were fighting under Adam. Its been hinted at in the past that some may have been neutral in the conflict, or reluctant to get directly involved. Usually this point was brought up in the context of the priesthood ban, but I see no reason to discard the base theory except for the part that said people were assigned to their race and/or a poor position in life due to not being valiant. Meanwhile, a number of spirits watched in shock from the sidelines as the entire heavens became a literal spiritual bloodbath, and among them was the Marred Servant.

The Marred Servant is a kind and generous soul, reluctant to fight or raise his hand against anyone, much less one of his close friends. So he stood off to the side pondering which side was right, even while the battle grew sore. Here he stood, forced to make the choose between two of his closest brothers: Christ and Lucifer... an Agonizing decision that paralyzed his mind and heart. But in the end, he knew what he had to do. And thus the Marred Servant joined the fray, and turned upon his former brother Lucifer. In the ensuing struggle, the Marred Servant was wounded, but he managed to subdue the traitor.

When he was cast out, Satan not only vowed to tempt mankind and drag them into misery out of spite, not only to do all in his power to overthrow God and take his place, but also to do all in his power to utterly destroy his former friend. Satan wants vengeance, and so he will come for the Marred Servant both before the Days of Tribulation when the Marred Servant is at his weakest, and during those days when the Marred Servant is growing.

You are right about some things Abjah: the two will confront each other during the last days, it will be personal between them, and vengeance will be involved. But it is Satan desiring vengeance, not the Marred Servant.

For Vengeance is the Lord's; not mine, not yours, not even the Holy Ghost's... but Christ's.

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:30 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 2:07 pm
Yes, I believe when Satan tempted him in Eden, in reality all he was doing was attempting to steal his basic role as the “bringer of light”, who was truly foreordained to come in the endtime, to share with mankind the secret of how to be “like unto the Gods”, that they might bear the heat of Christ’s Second Coming. Satan also had that knowledge, and even the very title (which he lost on account of high treason); hence his behaviour as per the Endowment. It was his cunning there (with the ignorance of Adam, and weakness of Eve) which enabled him to improperly wrest from Adam the rightful birthright over the world, and the title of “Lord of all the Earth”. This is why he could stand to make such such presumptions as “I am the god of this world”, “I also am a son of God”, and why Jesus refers to him as “the prince of this world”. What Satan usurped and stole from Adam, in Eden, gave him that power.

However, I submit that in the endtime, vengeance will be made, and the true Lucifer will once more put down the false, in a very personal revenge against his enemy from the first.

No Abijah, vengeance won't be taken on this matter. The Marred Servant does not seek vengeance on Satan for Satan usurping his place as "the prince of this world." That is Satan's delusion, not the Servant's. The Marred Servant actually cares very little about such things, as his eyes are upon the bigger picture.

If anyone is seeking vengeance, it is Satan who seeks it. Satan seeks vengeance upon the Marred Servant for turning against him. You see, Adam, Lucifer, Jesus Christ, and the Marred Servant were all once close friends during the premortal life. All four were among the Noble and Great Ones, with Christ the Firstborn as the Greatest of God's Children. Back then, the bonds of friendship were stronger, tighter, and more powerful than they currently are here on earth... and as such, it was beyond comprehension. They trusted each other absolutely, and understood that they would support one another even through the darkest of trials.

To make things even more tragic, all four friends were close with Heavenly Father, and were involved in the development of the Plan of Salvation from the very moment it became a gleam in His eye, and all four were destined to play major roles in fulfilling it. If only they knew the full extent of what would happen the day that the plan was revealed (Christ likely did).

On that fateful day when the Plan was presented by the Father, Adam and the Marred Servant were there to witness and participate in the battle that was about to unfold. We all know what happened: Satan presented his anti-agency amendment and volunteered to be savior. However, Heavenly Father rejected it and confirmed Jesus Christ as the Savior. Lucifer rebelled in a fit of rage and rallied 1/3 of the hosts of heaven in open war against God. Adam rallied the hosts loyal to God in defense and support of Christ. Note that I don't know if all of the remaining two thirds of heaven were fighting under Adam. Its been hinted at in the past that some may have been neutral in the conflict, or reluctant to get directly involved. Usually this point was brought up in the context of the priesthood ban, but I see no reason to discard the base theory except for the part that said people were assigned to their race and/or a poor position in life due to not being valiant. Meanwhile, a number of spirits watched in shock from the sidelines as the entire heavens became a literal spiritual bloodbath, and among them was the Marred Servant.

The Marred Servant is a kind and generous soul, reluctant to fight or raise his hand against anyone, much less one of his close friends. So he stood off to the side pondering which side was right, even while the battle grew sore. Here he stood, forced to make the choose between two of his closest brothers: Christ and Lucifer... an Agonizing decision that paralyzed his mind and heart. But in the end, he knew what he had to do. And thus the Marred Servant joined the fray, and turned upon his former brother Lucifer. In the ensuing struggle, the Marred Servant was wounded, but he managed to subdue the traitor.

When he was cast out, Satan not only vowed to tempt mankind and drag them into misery out of spite, not only to do all in his power to overthrow God and take his place, but also to do all in his power to utterly destroy his former friend. Satan wants vengeance, and so he will come for the Marred Servant both before the Days of Tribulation when the Marred Servant is at his weakest, and during those days when the Marred Servant is growing.

You are right about some things Abjah: the two will confront each other during the last days, it will be personal between them, and vengeance will be involved. But it is Satan desiring vengeance, not the Marred Servant.

For Vengeance is the Lord's; not mine, not yours, not even the Holy Ghost's... but Christ's.

I think we’ll simply have to agree we are speaking of two entirely different individuals.



“Vengeance is the Lord’s”...
Revelation 12

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

As I most recently complimented the poster Thinker in a different thread, I believe the happenings of the premortality will play out once more for true in the endtime. I believe Michael once more will put down (“take vengeance against”) the false dragon.

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:35 pm

I think we’ll simply have to agree we are speaking of two entirely different individuals.

In what manner? I think we can agree that the Marred Servant is in fact prophesied about in the scriptures, and that such prophecy was hidden under a second layer of meaning. I think we can agree that the Marred Servant isn't Jesus or Joseph Smith, even though the prophecies we use to back up our beliefs clearly point to them as well.

I think we can agree that the Marred Servant has a decent possibility of being the Holy Ghost in the flesh, that the Marred Servant will be a Prophet of God on this Earth, that he will appear unto the Church in its darkest hour and will lead the righteous to establish Zion in the US, and that God would work many miracles through him. I think we can agree that he will the Last Prophet of this Dispensation, and that he will live to witness the Second Coming of Christ and live through the Millennium. I think we agree on much more than you might initially think.

The fact that we have completely different understandings of the Marred Servant, even to the point of them seeming as two different men, isn't surprising... after all, you and I are both flawed beings, with our own unique points of view and our own unique perspectives on the gospel. We are just human, and humans have a very flawed and narrow view of the world.

When misunderstandings like this happen, should we not present our beliefs clearly and seek to discern the truth concerning the matter, and filter out the incongruities? Is it not wise to do so, especially concerning a subject that you and I both seem to understand to be vital for temporal and even spiritual salvation in the days to come?

Edit: Darn it, you ninja edited me.

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:35 pm “Vengeance is the Lord’s”...
Revelation 12

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

As I most recently complimented the poster Thinker in a different thread, I believe the happenings of the premortality will play out once more for true in the endtime. I believe Michael once more will put down (“take vengeance against”) the false dragon.

Ah. Well, in that case, I can see that happening after the millennium.

I AM wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2018, 10:55 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2018, 10:47 pm I AM is right in that "but I will heal him" is the key phrase of all these verses. The key to understanding the "marred" aspect, is understanding the relationship between Jesus Christ and this person. This will reveal explicitly, not only how this person is rejected, but by whom he is rejected, as well as their most-unfortunate fate, shown diametric to those who receive him, as most blessed of all peoples. This is why the last chapter in the Book of Mormon emphasises the "gifts of the Spirit". Such are the promised blessings of those with eyes to see in the time of reckoning.

---------------------------------
I've posted this before

Quote
"The Mormons are prophesied to mar the Davidic Servant, in a parallel to the Jews' crucifixion of Jesus Christ. The triumphal regeneration or healing following that marring will be on a parallel with the resurrection. And as Jesus' mission was about individual salvation, the Davidic Servant's mission will be about societal salvation; and in conjunction with his healing will come a miraculous deliverance from the governmental beast which will have taken a stranglehold upon the entire earth at that point. A nation will be born in a day. The kingdom of God will be established on earth, no more to be thrown down. It will be Zion, a celestial people and city. It will start small, but will eventually (after the next 1000 years) fill the whole earth. Meanwhile, (as most citizens of the earth following the pending tribulations will be of a terrestrial order, none telestial having made it through the purgings of their own making) this Zion will be the capital of the world government that will reign in righteousness under Christ for 1000 years.

When the Mormons mar the Davidic Servant is when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled. They will have filled the measure of their iniquity, and the kingdom will be taken from them and given back to the house of Israel. Then is when the 144,000 go forth to bring in as many as will to the church of the firstborn, which is a celestial order. The world at large will still be very wicked during this time, for the final purgings of the whole earth have not yet happened. The Jews will not yet be converted. "
_______________________________________________________________________
quote

11 Therefore it shall come to pass that whosoever will not believe in my words, who am Jesus Christ, which the Father shall cause him to bring forth unto the Gentiles, and shall give unto him power that he shall bring them forth unto the Gentiles, (it shall be done even as Moses said) they shall be cut off from among my people who are of the covenant.
(3 Nephi 21:9-11.)

"Who is the marred servant? It is quite important that we know, because God said those who do not hearken unto him will be cut off from his people of the covenant. (3 Nephi 21:11)
Whoever he is, he must preach to a people who are already of the covenant, as you can't be cut off from something you don't already have.
Could it be Joseph Smith? While Joseph Smith was indeed marred by "them," he was not healed.
I suppose he could be resurrected and preach again to the church that rejected him. The other alternative is that God will raise up a servant to preach to the LDS church, and he will be rejected by them."

I AM, do you believe this?

"The Mormons are prophesied to mar the Davidic Servant, in a parallel to the Jews' crucifixion of Jesus Christ".

If so, who prophesied this? Where are the scriptures and prophecies which claim that the LDS members will kill the Davidic Servant, just like the wicked Jews killed Jesus?

I think I'm pretty well versed in Last Days prophecies and I've never heard this or even thought it. I've already said a few times on the forum that I disagree with these new 'prophecies' that many are sharing on the forum regarding a Davidic Servant and his mission. I think they've got it wrong and are misinterpreting scriptures. But, this one you've shared, is the first time I've read that the LDS church members are supposedly the ones to 'mar' him. As I asked, who's interpretation is this?

To believe that the LDS members would do this, you have to believe that the church is wicked. If I'm wrong about this, then what other reasonable explanation is there?

I think he is using parallelism to back up that hypothesis of his. He's basically saying that history repeats itself, and what happened to Christ is likely to happen nowadays. Hard to say for sure.

You gotta admit that the reference from 3rd nephi becomes pretty foreboding if you take into account that the Book of Mormon speaks of our day and was written for us.

I can see a number of scenarios happening that would result in a major apostasy or schism within the church, but it would have to be the result of a perfect storm.

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:51 pmI can see that happening after the millennium.

So shoehorned Bruce McConkie, until he was taken before his time.

I myself, believe Adam = Holy Ghost = Davidic Servant.

I believe the struggle of the Plan of Salvation is the struggle between but two men, who of themselves take on the personification of good over evil.

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 2:33 pm

EdGoble wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 2:30 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑September 13th, 2017, 2:56 pm Position 3:

Jesef wrote: ↑September 11th, 2017, 9:52 pm The third option is that both of these Leaders'/Group's claims are not entirely true/real, leaving all kinds of other doors and options open.

Great. Yet another snuffer thread. Actually the "all kinds of doors and options" thing brings to mind, "wide is the way that leadeth to the deaths." (D&C 132.

*Eyes flash*

Not if I have anything to say about it. Denver Snuffer is a false prophet who was brought into existence as one by the devil in an attempt to discredit both the LDS church and the Marred Servant himself (by posing as him). I'd put my faith in the church over him or his compatriots any day, but that doesn't mean that I don't take what happens in the Church with a grain of salt.

The third option is a grayscale EdGlobe. Just because I fall in that option doesn't mean I support him or any of the other decoy prophets. President Nelson is the Prophet of the LDS Church and I will sustain him as such. Until the unlikely event occurs where God explicitly tells me otherwise after much fasting and prayer, that ain't gonna change.

I used that old quote from Jesef as a springboard into the topic of the Marred Servant. This thread has never been about Denver Snuffer, nor will I ever let that happen, as that is not the primary purpose of this thread.

That being said, I welcome differing thoughts and opinions from all sources, so long as they stick to the topic and remain respectful.

Anyone who's been on the forum for the last year or two knows that the speculation over a coming prophet(s) they cal the 'Davidic Servant' and now the 'Marred Servant' is very popular. It's true speculation, because the scriptures they are using have already been interpreted to mean other people --or are referring to the Messiah Ben David who is a leader who will come to the Jews.
As long as some are willing to entertain the idea that this leader can some from outside the church, or that he's from the rank and file members who unseats the LDS apostles and Prophets or that he's 'marred' by the LDS church, then you can't ignore Denver Snuffer. I can guarantee you that some on this forum believe that Snuffer is the Davidic Servant and he's been 'marred' by the church because he was exed. So, while you want to ignore the elephant in the room, it's there and you really need to face it.

You may not think this is about Denver Snuffer, but his followers do and many are on the forum. They've given up their membership and rejected their baptism and temple covenants to follow that man. You can bet that they are reading this all as supporting their guy.

And those who believe in this future prophet and don't have a problem with him coming from outside the church or from the ranks of regular members or even from excommunicated/ former Mormons, are in danger of following a charlatan.

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:14 pm I think he is using parallelism to back up that hypothesis of his. He's basically saying that history repeats itself, and what happened to Christ is likely to happen nowadays. Hard to say for sure.

You gotta admit that the reference from 3rd nephi becomes pretty foreboding if you take into account that the Book of Mormon speaks of our day and was written for us.

I can see a number of scenarios happening that would result in a major apostasy or schism within the church, but it would have to be the result of a perfect storm.

I don't interpret those scriptures to mean that the members of the church become so evil that they'd kill their prophet, but it seems I AM does. My belief regarding the righteousness/protection from God of the LDS church organization and it's mission on earth is unpopular on the forum, I know. It seems that on this forum I'm naive and provincial to still believe that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints was set up, the stone cut from the mountain without hands, to never be taken away again and to one day fill the whole earth.

I don't see the possibility that the church falls into apostasy--another view which makes me unpopular on this forum, but that's just not something that is scriptural or prophesied. That's not in the cards. Groups certainly can apostatize--they leave and break off, but not the main body who follow our Prophet and Apostles. And I say the Main body will never kill a Prophet of God. If the main body did, then the whole plan is frustrated and the 'marvelous work and wonder' which was started in 1820 comes to naught and might as well have not happened. And I believe that those who think the main body of the church is corrupt or in apostasy are themselves the ones who've lost their way.

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:26 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:51 pmI can see that happening after the millennium.

So shoehorned Bruce McConkie, until he was taken before his time.

I myself, believe Adam = Holy Ghost = Davidic Servant.

I believe the struggle of the Plan of Salvation is the struggle between but two men, who of themselves take on the personification of good over evil.

Well, I don't believe that Adam is the Holy Ghost. I did look into that theory several years ago, and my conclusion was that we don't have enough knowledge to make that leap so it's a 'no' for now. I also don't believe that the Holy Ghost is the Davidic servant since The 'Davidic servant' prophecies are based on the scriptures referring to the Messiah Ben David who is a leader who will be raised up to the Jews, not to the Gentiles, in the last days.

I expect this speculation over this 'Davidic Servant' will be used as a springboard for some false prophets to declare themselves as such, in the near future. As was mentioned, Denver Snuffer is already suggesting that he's this prophet.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:41 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:26 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:51 pmI can see that happening after the millennium.

So shoehorned Bruce McConkie, until he was taken before his time.

I myself, believe Adam = Holy Ghost = Davidic Servant.

I believe the struggle of the Plan of Salvation is the struggle between but two men, who of themselves take on the personification of good over evil.

Well, I don't believe that Adam is the Holy Ghost. I did look into that theory several years ago, and my conclusion was that we don't have enough knowledge to make that leap so it's a 'no' for now. I also don't believe that the Holy Ghost is the Davidic servant since The 'Davidic servant' prophecies are based on the scriptures referring to the Messiah Ben David who is a leader who will be raised up to the Jews, not to the Gentiles, in the last days.

I expect this speculation over this 'Davidic Servant' will be used as a springboard for some false prophets to declare themselves as such, in the near future. As was mentioned, Denver Snuffer is already suggesting that he's this prophet.

i agree. but i would remind, where there are false prophets, even so there is that true prophet which they are impersonating.

Lucifer has done all in his power to discredit this person. And yet “Snuffer” is among the least of this dross...

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:26 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:51 pmI can see that happening after the millennium.

So shoehorned Bruce McConkie, until he was taken before his time.

I myself, believe Adam = Holy Ghost = Davidic Servant.

I believe the struggle of the Plan of Salvation is between but two men, who of themselves take on the personification of good over evil.

That doesn't fit very well.

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 5:02 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:26 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:51 pmI can see that happening after the millennium.

So shoehorned Bruce McConkie, until he was taken before his time.

I myself, believe Adam = Holy Ghost = Davidic Servant.

I believe the struggle of the Plan of Salvation is between but two men, who of themselves take on the personification of good over evil.

That doesn't fit very well.

Perhaps not; though I can’t deny, as I have heard from God that the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost, so have I heard that this is the same personage as Michael/Adam, whom both Joseph Smith & the Endowment describe as being directly lower in authority from Christ (his Father).

I’m wrong or I’m right. Judge for yourself.

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 5:18 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 5:02 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:26 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:51 pmI can see that happening after the millennium.

So shoehorned Bruce McConkie, until he was taken before his time.

I myself, believe Adam = Holy Ghost = Davidic Servant.

I believe the struggle of the Plan of Salvation is between but two men, who of themselves take on the personification of good over evil.

That doesn't fit very well.

Perhaps not; though I can’t deny, as I have heard from God that the Davidic Servant is the Holy Ghost, so have I heard that this is the same personage as Michael/Adam, whom Joseph Smith & the Endowment described as being directly lower in authority from Christ (his Father).

I’m wrong or I’m right. Judge for yourself.

He can't be Adam as Adam's dominion is this world and the Davidic Servant's is Israel, specifically beginning with the covenant of Abraham... Hence the God of Abraham the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Adam is named and had his throne secured before this world began. He is the highest priesthood authority of this world.

The throne and dominion of the Davidic Servant is one of becoming.. As Gileadi puts it he is transitioning from being a conditional servant to becoming an unconditional inheritor. He is unnamed, unidentified and hidden. Surprise it's Adam would not be that surprising, though that fact alone does not exclude Adam of course.

This is why those who appeared to Joseph Smith to commit keys in 1836 were all prophets and patriarchs (and angel) of the Abrahamic dominion onward.

D&C 110:11 After this vision closed, the heavens were again opened unto us; and Moses appeared before us, and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth, and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north.

12 After this, Elias appeared, and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed all generations after us should be blessed.

13 After this vision had closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us; for Elijah the prophet, who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us, and said:

14 Behold, the time has fully come, which was spoken of by the mouth of Malachi—testifying that he [Elijah] should be sent, before the great and dreadful day of the Lord come—

15 To turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the children to the fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse—

16 Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.



No pre flood patriarchs or prophets appeared with their keys... Yet.

The Davidic Servant cannot be John the Beloved because the Lord awakens the servant to his identity in Isaiah 51:9-10 and a John has tarried in the flesh after seeing a full vision of the end times which includes the ministry of the Davidic Servant. The unnamed angel who John worships is likely the Holy Ghost / Davidic Servant.

The Davidic Servant cannot be Raphael unless the Raphael is a title and a dominion / throne given to him by he whose throne it is as Raphael is one of the seven archangels whose thrones and dominions were set from the foundation of this world.

Moreover, Raphael is one of the seven holy ones of 1 Enoch, and the unnamed elect one is described as being like the holy ones which reinforces my understanding of Abraham 3 and my understanding that the Davidic Servant is on the cusp of joining the seven with a name and a throne.

Ezekiel 37:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

Just my $ 0.02

Edit

Jst Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.

4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.

5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.

6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

Neither the Michael nor the man child who is the newly crowned king over Israel or the kingdom of God.

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 7:31 am The story of the first marring needs the hearer to have both a strong testimony, a broken heart, a contrite spirit, and an open mind in order to learn and fully understand it, for it deals with things that would subtlety turn everything you thought you knew about the Gospel upside down and inside out.

The one you refer to as the second marring certainly turned many presumptions upside down and inside out. The premortal war was a war with physical fighting, physical wounds on physical bodies. This is why those who seem to know we have never risen before and other things that aren't possible will never be anything but an evidence of what happens to those who cling to "we have enough."

The truth of what I have seen also explains the nephilim who were a product of angels and daughters of men.

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


Truly a broken heart and a contrite spirit is required along with a willingness to discard false assumptions, false conclusions, and false traditions.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:36 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:14 pm I think he is using parallelism to back up that hypothesis of his. He's basically saying that history repeats itself, and what happened to Christ is likely to happen nowadays. Hard to say for sure.

You gotta admit that the reference from 3rd nephi becomes pretty foreboding if you take into account that the Book of Mormon speaks of our day and was written for us.

I can see a number of scenarios happening that would result in a major apostasy or schism within the church, but it would have to be the result of a perfect storm.

I don't interpret those scriptures to mean that the members of the church become so evil that they'd kill their prophet, but it seems I AM does. My belief regarding the righteousness/protection from God of the LDS church organization and it's mission on earth is unpopular on the forum, I know. It seems that on this forum I'm naive and provincial to still believe that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints was set up, the stone cut from the mountain without hands, to never be taken away again and to one day fill the whole earth.

I don't see the possibility that the church falls into apostasy--another view which makes me unpopular on this forum, but that's just not something that is scriptural or prophesied. That's not in the cards. Groups certainly can apostatize--they leave and break off, but not the main body who follow our Prophet and Apostles. And I say the Main body will never kill a Prophet of God. If the main body did, then the whole plan is frustrated and the 'marvelous work and wonder' which was started in 1820 comes to naught and might as well have not happened. And I believe that those who think the main body of the church is corrupt or in apostasy are themselves the ones who've lost their way.

AI, all of us on this forum are naive, and you and I are no exceptions. We all have our own beliefs, our own personal revelations, and we shatter, get defensive, or recoil whenever someone directly challenges them. I do this, you do this, we all do it. The fact of the matter is that ALL of us are probably wrong about a great many things, and it should be no secret. In fact, I would hazard a guess that most of the things I and others talked about in this thread will prove to be completely or partially wrong in some form or fashion.

All I know are the following things: God has many reasons for doing things that defy our logic; I know that prophecies can be fulfilled in multiple manners, even as scriptures have different layers to them; I know that mankind often reads into and interprets scriptures in ways that the Lord may not have intended, and as such, that prophecies can be fulfilled in unexpected ways; I know that many of the Lord's covenants and prophecies are implicitly conditioned upon righteousness and upon the meeting of certain unrevealed conditions as far as how, when, where, or even if they will be fulfilled; and most importantly, I know that the Lord knows how to make and execute backup and contingency plans.

The rough stone rolling down the mountain isn't the church; rather it represents God's Will as a cohesive whole, and the Plan of Salvation itself. The church is only one small aspect of that plan; an important aspect to be sure, but only an aspect itself. Honestly, do you really think that if the worst were to happen, and the majority of church suddenly fell into apostasy tomorrow, and an angry and bloodthirsty mob of these apostates rose up and slew president Nelson and the rest of the Twelve and splattered their innocent blood of the prophets of God across the streets of Temple Square (in a similar manner to what happened to Joseph and Hyrum), that it would be the end of God's plan? Would you really think, that all was lost, that the plan was fustrated, and that Satan would've finally won against all odds?

O ye of little faith! I say unto thee, NAY! The Plan of Salvation cannot be so easily foiled! Cans't not thou realize that our Heavenly Father would have seen such an event coming, in at least some of the infinite variations of the possible future, and made preparations for such possibilities, so that his work, nor the work of his servant Joseph would not be in vein? Doest thou not realize that for such an instant, our Lord would prepared a way? Yea, I say testify unto thee and all who would read this, that such is indeed the case. IF it cometh to pass that the Church shall fall, then behold, the Last Dispensation shall not be in vain, nor shall it end. For I can see a dimly lit path through the dark shadows cast upon the People of the Lord in this possible near future, and I can see the fate of such a world. And though it may not be pretty, nor pleasant, a remnant of a remnant of the righteous will remain, and the Lord shall lead them forth unto Missouri to establish Zion in his own due time.

Though at times the Spirit of the Lord overshadows my soul, and I see dark shadows cast upon the People of the Lord in the near future, behold, I can also see a spark of light glimmering through the shadows, a way to avoid this fate, a way to avoid the same fate of the Nephites. Its a narrow path to run, and it seems counterintuitive to the instincts of His people... But I will put my complete trust in my God, for He shall not fail. I trust in the Word of the Lord, whether it cometh through our current prophets, or through the scriptures: Even the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price; I trust the words of His servant Joseph, and his Servant Brigham Young, and in the voices of his servants long since past. President Nelson has said that we would need the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the near future, and I see that coming to pass whether the church remains standing or not.

I said the following once before in the "Homosexuality and the 12" Thread:

Durzan wrote: ↑June 15th, 2018, 1:17 pm
...My fate is bound at the hip to the fate of the Church. Only upon reaching a set of internal conditions in my mind which act as checks and balances could I even have the chance of walking away. If those conditions are not met... then if the Church falls, then I fall.

If all those conditions are met, then I wouldn't be walking away so much as doing all in my own power to either reverse the effects of Apostasy within the church, or failing that... seek the Holy Ghost to be with me and then finish what the Prophet Joseph Smith and his elder brother Hyrum Smith started.

I will NOT let the work of my God and my ancestors be in vain! I owe it to them; I owe it to my own sense of faith and testimony; I owe it to God. And I will fight to the bitter end (be it death or excommunication) to ensure that the restored Gospel of Jesus Christ remain here upon the earth, even if it should only bring one soul besides my own back into my Heavenly Father's presence. I would cast myself into the deepest pit of hell, never to return, if it meant that the mission started by Jospeh Smith (upon the insistence of God) at the start of this dispensation gets fulfilled. Heck I would do it to simply save the soul of another.

The Gospel must be preached around the world, zion must be established, by any righteous means necessary... or else the entire plan was in vain. I don't think that the church will fall into apostasy. But should the impossible happen, then I will be one of the ones leading the charge to ensure it remains here on the earth.

I've seen the impossible come true before, both the good kind of impossible and the evil kind of impossible. The Spirit has told me things that have turned my perceptions of the Gospel and what is possible and impossible upside down and inside out multiple times over. I have had my testimony broken and reforged in rapid succession many times, and I am stronger than before. Because of this, I know I can stand against the Darkness, whatever form it takes, even if all hope seems lost. I will fight to the bitter end to preserve the Gospel.

Alaris wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 6:13 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 7:31 am The story of the first marring needs the hearer to have both a strong testimony, a broken heart, a contrite spirit, and an open mind in order to learn and fully understand it, for it deals with things that would subtlety turn everything you thought you knew about the Gospel upside down and inside out.

The one you refer to as the second marring certainly turned many presumptions upside down and inside out. The premortal war was a war with physical fighting, physical wounds on physical bodies. This is why those who seem to know we have never risen before and other things that aren't possible will never be anything but an evidence of what happens to those who cling to "we have enough."

The truth of what I have seen also explains the nephilim who were a product of angels and daughters of men.

Genesis 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


Truly a broken heart and a contrite spirit is required along with a willingness to discard false assumptions, false conclusions, and false traditions.

Then, be prepared to have your world turned upside down and inside out for a second time, Alaris. We can continue this conversation via PM.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:41 pm

abijah wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:26 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 3:51 pmI can see that happening after the millennium.

So shoehorned Bruce McConkie, until he was taken before his time.

I myself, believe Adam = Holy Ghost = Davidic Servant.

I believe the struggle of the Plan of Salvation is the struggle between but two men, who of themselves take on the personification of good over evil.

Well, I don't believe that Adam is the Holy Ghost. I did look into that theory several years ago, and my conclusion was that we don't have enough knowledge to make that leap so it's a 'no' for now. I also don't believe that the Holy Ghost is the Davidic servant since The 'Davidic servant' prophecies are based on the scriptures referring to the Messiah Ben David who is a leader who will be raised up to the Jews, not to the Gentiles, in the last days.

I expect this speculation over this 'Davidic Servant' will be used as a springboard for some false prophets to declare themselves as such, in the near future. As was mentioned, Denver Snuffer is already suggesting that he's this prophet.

That spring board has been around for a 100 plus years and many LDS and ex LDS men have claimed to be that servant...

But In regards to this servant not being raised up unto the gentiles as you quote above, Isaiah states otherwise: Isaiah 49

1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;

3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.

5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.

6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

simpleton wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 6:55 pm 6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

His being a light to the gentiles is also in 1 Enoch.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:36 pm

Durzan wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 4:14 pm I think he is using parallelism to back up that hypothesis of his. He's basically saying that history repeats itself, and what happened to Christ is likely to happen nowadays. Hard to say for sure.

You gotta admit that the reference from 3rd nephi becomes pretty foreboding if you take into account that the Book of Mormon speaks of our day and was written for us.

I can see a number of scenarios happening that would result in a major apostasy or schism within the church, but it would have to be the result of a perfect storm.

I don't interpret those scriptures to mean that the members of the church become so evil that they'd kill their prophet, but it seems I AM does. My belief regarding the righteousness/protection from God of the LDS church organization and it's mission on earth is unpopular on the forum, I know. It seems that on this forum I'm naive and provincial to still believe that the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints was set up, the stone cut from the mountain without hands, to never be taken away again and to one day fill the whole earth. Except that the Church and the Stone/Kingdom are two distinct separate organizations.

I don't see the possibility that the church falls into apostasy--another view which makes me unpopular on this forum, but that's just not something that is scriptural or prophesied. That's not in the cards. Groups certainly can apostatize--they leave and break off, but not the main body who follow our Prophet and Apostles. And I say the Main body will never kill a Prophet of God. If the main body did, then the whole plan is frustrated and the 'marvelous work and wonder' which was started in 1820 comes to naught and might as well have not happened. And I believe that those who think the main body of the church is corrupt or in apostasy are themselves the ones who've lost their way.

I do not think that the members kill this Servant either, but I do think the vast majority of members and leaders, mainly the leaders, (like unto the Jews that rejected their King), they also reject this Servant. And I actually think we already have. At least the vast majority. Main stream has to reject this Servant as that is what fulfills prophecy in Isaiah, IMO. And to think that it is not possible for the majority, of say the leadership to apostatize is incorrect also, as it has already happened with Joseph at the beginning. Most of the original 12 apostles apostatized....
And if you believe Isaiah could apply to us, then this , for example, says it very clear, Isaiah 28:

14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; (manifesto and other agreements made with the "Horn"/ Federal Government) when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, (this Servant)a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.(but most in mormondom, it seems, believeth not in this Servant/Deliverer)

17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.....

The "Marvelous Work and a Wonder" is yet to come forth IMO. As "Kings and Queens have not shut there mouths" etc., the world does not wonder at all at Joseph Smiths story or the restoration that he was instrumental in bringing forth. But what this Servant does, causes the whole world to wonder.

simpleton wrote: ↑June 24th, 2018, 7:40 pm
I do not think that the members kill this Servant either, but I do think the vast majority of members and leaders, mainly the leaders, (like unto the Jews that rejected their King), they also reject this Servant. And I actually think we already have. At least the vast majority. Main stream has to reject this Servant as that is what fulfills prophecy in Isaiah, IMO. And to think that it is not possible for the majority, of say the leadership to apostatize is incorrect also, as it has already happened with Joseph at the beginning. Most of the original 12 apostles apostatized....
And if you believe Isaiah could apply to us, then this , for example, says it very clear, Isaiah 28:

14Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; (manifesto and other agreements made with the "Horn"/ Federal Government) when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, (this Servant)a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.(but most in mormondom, it seems, believeth not in this Servant/Deliverer)

17Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

18And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

19From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report.....

The "Marvelous Work and a Wonder" is yet to come forth IMO. As "Kings and Queens have not shut there mouths" etc., the world does not wonder at all at Joseph Smiths story or the restoration that he was instrumental in bringing forth. But what this Servant does, causes the whole world to wonder.

Isaiah 28 should give any lds pause... Particularly those who like to shame, belittle, and bully others into silence as though discussing mysteries leads to apostasy. The pride that is required to reach such a conclusion and such a presumption of both authority and understanding is truly on par with.... Well others who have fallen due to pride.

Isaiah 55

6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:
7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

found this interesting.
Read the whole thing if possible.


Two Last-days Servants for the Remnant of Jacob - Val Brinkerhoff

http://www.7witnesses.com/uploads/3/8/9 ... _jacob.pdf

"John the Beloved and especially Joseph the Indian Prophet may be viewed as outsiders by
many of the Saints who are unaware of their missions. This may lead to their rejection. The role of the Indian
Prophet may be like that of Samuel the Lamanite, who called the Nephites to repentance in the book of Helaman
(see chaps. 12-15). This may lead to his “marring” (3 Ne. 20:44; 21:10). He, and the mass conversion of many
Lamanites in the book of Helaman appear to be types for our day. Few understand that much of scripture,
especially Isaiah, is prophecy for our day, patterns of coming events. In the leadership sequence of the Father,
Christ, John the Beloved, Joseph Smith, the three translated disciples, and Joseph the Indian Prophet, it is Joseph
the Indian Prophet, and the four known translated beings addressed here that may interface with us most
directly. Joseph is thought to be with us today, selected in 1940 to lead Native Americans in the western
hemisphere.
Like the Nephites in Samuel’s day, the Gentiles of today have become a prideful, wicked people (see Helaman
and 3 Nephi). It should be remembered that our Lord and John the Baptist were also viewed as outsiders in their
day. They called the Jews of their day to repentance, as they were not part of the traditional Jewish leadership.
John the Beloved (D&C 77:9&14) and Joseph the Indian Prophet (2 Ne. 3:24) are thought to bring about “much
restoration” in their individual missions, each centered on gathering the remnant of Jacob. Joseph Smith began
the gathering process with mainly the Ephraimite Gentiles of his day. John has been gathering Judah and the lost
Ten Tribes for a long time.5 Joseph, the Indian Prophet may gather the Book of Mormon remnant, those of
Manasseh in the Americas first, then remaining Ephraimites in the later part of the last-days. Collectively, all
three servants represent the two most blessed tribal bloodlines in the house of Israel - Joseph (the priesthood
line in Manasseh and Ephraim, see JST Gen. 48, 49 & 50; Deut. 33; 2 Ne. 3), and Judah (the kingship line, see
Gen. 49:1 Chron. 5; Heb. 7; 2 Sam. 7). Both tribes will be reconciled with each other in the last-days (see Ezek.
37). Three witnesses point to the soon to emerge Indian leader Joseph. They include: ........"

Jeremiah 23:
1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD. 2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD. 3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase. 4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.

5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

7Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

9Mine heart within me is broken because of the prophets; all my bones shake; I am like a drunken man, and like a man whom wine hath overcome, because of the LORD, and because of the words of his holiness.

10For the land is full of adulterers; for because of swearing the land mourneth; the pleasant places of the wilderness are dried up, and their course is evil, and their force is not right.

11For both prophet and priest are profane; yea, in my house have I found their wickedness, saith the LORD.

12Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

13And I have seen folly in the prophets of Samaria; they prophesied in Baal, and caused my people Israel to err.

14I have seen also in the prophets of Jerusalem an horrible thing: they commit adultery, and walk in lies: they strengthen also the hands of evildoers, that none doth return from his wickedness: they are all of them unto me as Sodom, and the inhabitants thereof as Gomorrah.

15Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.

16Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD.

17They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you.

18For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?

19Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

20The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

21I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings.

23Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?

24Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.

25I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; 27Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. 28The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD. 29Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? 30Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. 31Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. 32Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

33And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of the LORD? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the LORD. 34And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the LORD, I will even punish that man and his house. 35Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the LORD answered? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 36And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God. 37Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken? 38But since ye say, The burden of the LORD; therefore thus saith the LORD; Because ye say this word, The burden of the LORD, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of the LORD; 39Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, and cast you out of my presence: 40And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.