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That's where I have a problem. Definitive statements like that bother me because I don't like to conflate two scriptures to mean the same thing just because they are similar...especially where Isaiah is involved since he prophesies of both the First and Second comings. To me, 3 Nephi 21 stands out clear as day as Joseph Smith, while to others it may not. So when someone says Joseph Smith is not the marred servant I retort, "That's your opinion." In the most respectful way possible, of course.alaris wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:28 pm RAB - Rensai has put the context beautifully. The marred servant is the end times servant, not Joseph Smith - all the surrounding context is an indicator. Read Isaiah 41-53 and 9-11 with a sincere prayer. Ezekil 37. Jeremiah 31-33. Ezekiel 41-43. Malachi 3. Revelation 12.
I appreciate your respectful tone tremendously.RAB wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:50 pmThat's where I have a problem. Definitive statements like that bother me because I don't like to conflate two scriptures to mean the same thing just because they are similar...especially where Isaiah is involved since he prophesies of both the First and Second comings. To me, 3 Nephi 21 stands out clear as day as Joseph Smith, while to others it may not. So when someone says Joseph Smith is not the marred servant I retort, "That's your opinion." In the most respectful way possible, of course.alaris wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:28 pm RAB - Rensai has put the context beautifully. The marred servant is the end times servant, not Joseph Smith - all the surrounding context is an indicator. Read Isaiah 41-53 and 9-11 with a sincere prayer. Ezekil 37. Jeremiah 31-33. Ezekiel 41-43. Malachi 3. Revelation 12.
I just implore you to 1 Nephi 15:8 and Moron 10:3-5 it - pray about it with an open heart and sincerity. Thanks RAB.Easy. You highlighted all the wrong wordsLDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 4:56 pmBesides the chapter heading (which doesn't count), there are also these scriptures in the D&C:RAB wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:53 pm Not to derail the subject, but in Ezekiel 37, what do we make of the headnote that says, "David (the Messiah) will reign over them." Let me first say that I understand headnotes are not doctrine. But they were put there by people who know a lot more than me. Why do we suppose they are calling the Latter-Day David the Messiah?
I ask those who say there will be a Davidic servant who is not Christ, and that this Davidic servant will be king, how you reconcile the above scriptures to your theory? Do you believe there will be two kings, a mortal one (a guy named David) and an immortal one (Christ)? How exactly does this theory work?But, verily I say unto you that in time ye shall have no king nor ruler, for I will be your king and watch over you. Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand? (D&C 38:21-22)
And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins. For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day. And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation. For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver. (D&C 45:56-59)
In time there will be no king or ruler just means exactly that - at some point He Himself will be king. Verse 22 reinforces this point that the Lawgiver is Him and that "when I come" is the trigger. The Davidic Servant gathers Israel and receives the throne and kingdom of David before Christ returns as King and Lawgiver. His ministry is emblematic of Christ ruling at Elohim's behest.21 But, verily I say unto you that in time ye shall have no king nor ruler, for I will be your king and watch over you.
22 Wherefore, hear my voice and follow me, and you shall be a free people, and ye shall have no laws but my laws when I come, for I am your lawgiver, and what can stay my hand?
Please if you are an Adam God lurker, please quote me in an applicable thread if you want to excuse yet another scripture to fit your doctrine.1 Thus saith the Lord your God, even Jesus Christ, the Great I Am, Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the same which looked upon the wide expanse of eternity, and all the seraphic hosts of heaven, before the world was made;
I personally believe he is one of the two witnesses - we all know how that ends.LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 5:23 pmSo, if I am understanding this correctly, the belief is that the Davidic servant will establish the kingdom and rule until the Lord gets back, at which point the rule will be handed over to Jesus, who will then rule as king. Is that correct? If so, what happens to the Davidic servant? Does he step down from the throne, or does he get another throne or something?alaris wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 5:14 pm In time there will be no king or ruler just means exactly that - at some point He Himself will be king. Verse 22 reinforces this point that the Lawgiver is Him and that "when I come" is the trigger. The Davidic Servant gathers Israel and receives the throne and kingdom of David before Christ returns as King and Lawgiver. His ministry is emblematic of Christ ruling at Elohim's behest.
Edit: The Davidic Servant is the temporal Messiah that the Jews have been waiting on. Gileadi underscores this point well on his site.He is the lesser Messiah to the greater Messiah, Jesus Christ.
Quite possibly. If the Davidic Servant drinks the cup and is baptized with the baptism that would certainly underscore the final arrival of Jesus Christ in red.LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 5:31 pmOkay, so he gets killed and then comes back to life after three and a half days and then ascends into heaven, leaving the throne unoccupied until Jesus gets back?alaris wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 5:27 pmI personally believe he is one of the two witnesses - we all know how that ends.LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 5:23 pmSo, if I am understanding this correctly, the belief is that the Davidic servant will establish the kingdom and rule until the Lord gets back, at which point the rule will be handed over to Jesus, who will then rule as king. Is that correct? If so, what happens to the Davidic servant? Does he step down from the throne, or does he get another throne or something?
Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
Isaiah 43:4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Snuff Doggy Dogg wrote:Rest assured that God intends to establish Zion. We will see the return of exactly what was here in the beginning. There will be a return. The reason they will come to the children of Ephraim in the everlasting mountains is because there will be a new Jerusalem. They will bring rich treasures when they come because they have records that need to be translated. They are going to be crowned because the Family of God consists of people who are to be made kings and priests. That infrastructure has to be put in place by the Lord before His return. We cannot accomplish it without Him. Therefore He intends to accomplish this work. When He accomplishes this work, there will not be a king like the Gentiles expect. You are going to find someone or some group who are meek and lowly, who are rather more like our Savior than the kings who ruled during our Savior's day. You won't find a Caesar and you won't find a local potentate; you will find a servant.
Might could be!LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 7:28 pmOh, no, I was being straightforward.
So, part of it is read by applying a temporal meaning, and then you shift and then the other part you read as applying eternally.
See, I would have read the whole thing temporally, as him not dying and as him reigning eternally (for ever), just as the text says.
Do we? I must have missed that partclarkkent14 wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 7:49 pm You guys talk about this throne like it will be some large majestic place that reminds me of some earthly king reigning with blood and horror. I think it will look more like Christ's visit to the Nephites as served and ministered there. I'm sure the DS will be like the Master.
Snuff Doggy Dogg wrote:Rest assured that God intends to establish Zion. We will see the return of exactly what was here in the beginning. There will be a return. The reason they will come to the children of Ephraim in the everlasting mountains is because there will be a new Jerusalem. They will bring rich treasures when they come because they have records that need to be translated. They are going to be crowned because the Family of God consists of people who are to be made kings and priests. That infrastructure has to be put in place by the Lord before His return. We cannot accomplish it without Him. Therefore He intends to accomplish this work. When He accomplishes this work, there will not be a king like the Gentiles expect. You are going to find someone or some group who are meek and lowly, who are rather more like our Savior than the kings who ruled during our Savior's day. You won't find a Caesar and you won't find a local potentate; you will find a servant.
Nope. What I'm trying to say is there are some things I am firm on and some things I opine one just like you do and that I'm open to being wrong unlike most people on planet earth seemingly.LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 8:11 pmOkay, so there is no standard way of viewing this, then, is there? Each person's idea of the Davidic servant is different than the next? Is this what you are trying to say? I'm trying to get a grasp of this non-Christ Davidic servant idea, given I've never actually looked into it.
Yes. He originally called the “servant” a “davidic king” in one of his books back in the early 90s or late 80s.LDS Anarchist wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 8:28 pm Is Gileadi the source of the non-Christ Davidic servant, then? The only interpretation I've ever heard in church about the prophecies of a future "my servant David" is that that is Christ. So, was Gileadi the one who first put forth this idea? Or does it precede him? (Now, I know Joseph Smith mentioned that David's throne would be given to another of his descendants, also named David, but that doesn't necessarily imply a temporal kingdom. That could be referring to David losing his exaltation and the Lord giving it to one of his posterity, also named David, per D&C 132.) So, it may be that this idea was derived from Joseph Smith's words about the future David, but who originated the idea, I wonder? Who came up with the "Davidic Servant" moniker?
Except for the solar eclipse on 8/21 that you were wrong about when you predicted nothing (edit) would happen.Seek the Truth wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:05 pm Keep in mind all end times predictions in this forum have been wrong 100% of the time.
Eh, The Lunar Tetrad was also accurate, because they would be happening in conjunction with the solar eclipses... including the one that happened this year over America. Also, the Lunar tetrad was framed by solar eclipses... including the one that happened this year. Also remember... "the sun shall be darkened, and the moon turned to blood, and the stars shall fall from the heavens"? Solar Eclipses, Lunar Eclipses, and Meteor Showers are signs of the times as a collective, not necessarily as individual signs. So, just because one happened and nothing major happened afterward doesn't mean that it wasn't a sign or part of a sign. Only looking back does it become clear.alaris wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:07 pmExcept for the solar eclipse on 8/21 that you were wrong about when you predicted nothing (edit) would happen.Seek the Truth wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 10:05 pm Keep in mind all end times predictions in this forum have been wrong 100% of the time.
RAB wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:50 pmThat's where I have a problem. Definitive statements like that bother me because I don't like to conflate two scriptures to mean the same thing just because they are similar...especially where Isaiah is involved since he prophesies of both the First and Second comings. To me, 3 Nephi 21 stands out clear as day as Joseph Smith, while to others it may not. So when someone says Joseph Smith is not the marred servant I retort, "That's your opinion." In the most respectful way possible, of course.alaris wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:28 pm RAB - Rensai has put the context beautifully. The marred servant is the end times servant, not Joseph Smith - all the surrounding context is an indicator. Read Isaiah 41-53 and 9-11 with a sincere prayer. Ezekil 37. Jeremiah 31-33. Ezekiel 41-43. Malachi 3. Revelation 12.
But 3 Nephi 21 says nothing about being marred in the face beyond any other person. 3 Nephi 20 does, but I am not sure they are talking about the same person. To me, 3 Nephi 20 talks about the servant in the context of the gathering of the Lord's people at Old Jerusalem--future looking from our present time and fulfilling the covenant with the Jews. 3 Nephi 21 talks about the commencing of the restoration of the gospel and it going to the Lamanites, which has already happened--future prophecy in Book of Mormon times, but already mostly fulfilled. Note in 3 Nephi 21, after it talks about the work beginning, the servant is not mentioned in the rest of the prophesy.
ScripturesRAB wrote: ↑September 18th, 2017, 2:53 pm Not to derail the subject, but in Ezekiel 37, what do we make of the headnote that says, "David (the Messiah) will reign over them." Let me first say that I understand headnotes are not doctrine. But they were put there by people who know a lot more than me. Why do we suppose they are calling the Latter-Day David the Messiah?
https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1982/10/scriptures?lang=eng wrote:... New chapter headings would be written. ... There was a spirit of inspiration brooding over their work, and those working with the project talked often of how it was blessed. There were humbling spiritual experiences. ... Without the inspired help of hundreds of dedicated workers it would have been impossible! Among them were scholars in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Old and New Testament studies. ...
Honestly, I don't really know. My theory has long been that the Marred Servant was one of those two witnesses (seems to fit, but I could be wrong).mmm..cheese wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2018, 9:57 pm What about the 2 witnesses and their relationship to this servant?
By asking this I do not want to give the impression that I am all on board with this idea, but I will let people talk...
I agree. He's either one of them or they are directly tied to him as his witnesses. The question is what are they witnessing?Durzan wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2018, 10:28 pmHonestly, I don't really know. My theory has long been that the Marred Servant was one of those two witnesses (seems to fit, but I could be wrong).mmm..cheese wrote: ↑June 23rd, 2018, 9:57 pm What about the 2 witnesses and their relationship to this servant?
By asking this I do not want to give the impression that I am all on board with this idea, but I will let people talk...
I have seen theories saying that they are the sons of the Marred Servant, but I'm not sure that said theories make as much sense.
At the very least, If one of them ain't the Marred Servant himself, I hazard a guess that they are serving under the Marred Servant as either an Apostle or member of the 1st Presidency. By that point, all three will likely be good friends if they weren't already.