LDS Freedom Forum

Posted: **November 15th, 2017, 3:44 pm**

JustDan wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 3:33 pmNot so. I'm calling it now.

Posted: **November 15th, 2017, 3:50 pm**

marc wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 3:44 pm
JustDan wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 3:33 pmNot so. I'm calling it now.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46383

Good one.

That's exactly what I was talking about.

Posted: **November 15th, 2017, 3:53 pm**

JustDan wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 3:50 pm
marc wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 3:44 pm
JustDan wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 3:33 pmNot so. I'm calling it now.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46383
Good one.

That's exactly what I was talking about.

May I suggest carefully reading Ether 4, specifically, the verses cited? Allow me to emphasize one verse:

8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.

Posted: **November 15th, 2017, 4:16 pm**

For me, I would be careful to judge those who have seen Christ. Let me say that I am not perfect at that. I've had my share of casting stones at those who proclaim they have. The two I am speaking of are Denver Snuffer and Jake Hilton. Although, I still think they've been deceived, I should still be mindful and sensitive to these situations. Although, I disagree to what they do - that is - leading others astray.

I've had dreams of Him ... I've also had dreams of someone pretending to be him. I believe God gave me these dreams so I can tell the difference. Although difficult, it can be possible through discernment.

Posted: **November 15th, 2017, 11:59 pm**

LdsMarco wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 4:16 pm For me, I would be careful to judge those who have seen Christ. Let me say that I am not perfect at that. I've had my share of casting stones at those who proclaim they have. The two I am speaking of are Denver Snuffer and Jake Hilton. Although, I still think they've been deceived, I should still be mindful and sensitive to these situations. Although, I disagree to what they do - that is - leading others astray.

I've had dreams of Him ... I've also had dreams of someone pretending to be him. I believe God gave me these dreams so I can tell the difference. Although difficult, it can be possible through discernment.

My thoughts exactly. People these days are far too quick to judgement wanting to "crucify" others without weighing the evidence or giving them a trial.

If you believe someone is a liar and a deceiver than prove it. You are innocent until proven guilty; or at least should be. Weigh the evidence before throwing them in prison!

EDIT: As an aside, I have done my research on those two individuals and came to the same conclusion (pretty easily). However, despite disagreeing on many many things, I learned from them.

Posted: **November 16th, 2017, 9:33 am**

On The Fringe wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 11:59 pm
LdsMarco wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 4:16 pm For me, I would be careful to judge those who have seen Christ. Let me say that I am not perfect at that. I've had my share of casting stones at those who proclaim they have. The two I am speaking of are Denver Snuffer and Jake Hilton. Although, I still think they've been deceived, I should still be mindful and sensitive to these situations. Although, I disagree to what they do - that is - leading others astray.

I've had dreams of Him ... I've also had dreams of someone pretending to be him. I believe God gave me these dreams so I can tell the difference. Although difficult, it can be possible through discernment.
My thoughts exactly. People these days are far too quick to judgement wanting to "crucify" others without weighing the evidence or giving them a trial.

If you believe someone is a liar and a deceiver than prove it. You are innocent until proven guilty; or at least should be. Weigh the evidence before throwing them in prison!

EDIT: As an aside, I have done my research on those two individuals and came to the same conclusion (pretty easily). However, despite disagreeing on many many things, I learned from them.

How do you disprove it? I know Julie Rowe is a deceiver and liar because of what the scriptures tell me, but how do I prove she is lying? She knows I cant, is why she has morons that follow her.

Posted: **November 16th, 2017, 11:10 am**

Gage wrote: ↑November 16th, 2017, 9:33 am
On The Fringe wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 11:59 pm
LdsMarco wrote: ↑November 15th, 2017, 4:16 pm How do you disprove it? I know Julie Rowe is a deceiver and liar because of what the scriptures tell me, but how do I prove she is lying? She knows I cant, is why she has morons that follow her.
I guess the real question is why prove it? Everyone has their agency to choose between light and darkness. The only way we can help someone to choose the right is by example. Not by force/proving it.

It is the same when we share the Book of Mormon. It's an invitation. Not by force

Posted: **November 17th, 2017, 5:03 pm**

If someone tells me that they've seen Christ, I have a right to believe or disbelieve them--it's not a matter of being mean or 'crucifying' them. I can choose to trust their claim or question it. To be honest, I seriously question most of the claims made on this forum because the claimers' words and actions don't jibe with a true disciple of Christ--one of strong faith, which is required to have this experience.

Did anyone notice what Elder Anderson read in the last General conference on this topic? He gave his talk, but then also mentioned that Elder Hales wrote a brief talk that he planned to give, IF he was feeling well enough to attend. Of course, he wasn't well enough--he died while GC was still in session. Elder Anderson shared some of what he was going to tell us; here are Elder Hales last words of counsel to the members:

“When we choose to have faith, we are prepared to stand in the presence of God. … After the Savior’s Crucifixion, He appeared only to those ‘who had been faithful in the testimony of [Him] while they lived in mortality.’ [D&C 138:12.] Those ‘who rejected the testimonies … of the … prophets [could not] behold [the Savior’s] presence, nor look upon his face.’ [D&C 138:21.] … Our faith prepares us to be in the presence of the Lord.”

That's the standard for me. It's all about Faith and Faith can be seen in the way a person lives their life and how they speak and think. We see many who claim they've seen the Savior, but if they don't display in their lives, countenances and actions the kind of FAITH that is evident in a sincere, faithful testimony of Jesus Christ, then I don't believe them. I'm not being mean, I'm simply making a determination.

And--Those who have this kind of faith, faith like the Brother of Jared-- It will be evident to those around them.

Posted: **November 17th, 2017, 5:32 pm**

AI2.0 wrote: ↑November 17th, 2017, 5:03 pm If someone tells me that they've seen Christ, I have a right to believe or disbelieve them--it's not a matter of being mean or 'crucifying' them. I can choose to trust their claim or question it. To be honest, I seriously question most of the claims made on this forum because the claimers' words and actions don't jibe with a true disciple of Christ--one of strong faith, which is required to have this experience.

Did anyone notice what Elder Anderson read in the last General conference on this topic? He gave his talk, but then also mentioned that Elder Hales wrote a brief talk that he planned to give, IF he was feeling well enough to attend. Of course, he wasn't well enough--he died while GC was still in session. Elder Anderson shared some of what he was going to tell us; here are Elder Hales last words of counsel to the members:

“When we choose to have faith, we are prepared to stand in the presence of God. … After the Savior’s Crucifixion, He appeared only to those ‘who had been faithful in the testimony of [Him] while they lived in mortality.’ [D&C 138:12.] Those ‘who rejected the testimonies … of the … prophets [could not] behold [the Savior’s] presence, nor look upon his face.’ [D&C 138:21.] … Our faith prepares us to be in the presence of the Lord.”
That's the standard for me. It's all about Faith and Faith can be seen in the way a person lives their life and how they speak and think. We see many who claim they've seen the Savior, but if they don't display in their lives, countenances and actions the kind of FAITH that is evident in a sincere, faithful testimony of Jesus Christ, then I don't believe them. I'm not being mean, I'm simply making a determination.

And--Those who have this kind of faith, faith like the Brother of Jared-- It will be evident to those around them.

I agree. Alma was a viliest of sinners. When he was born again, he labored without ceasing for Christ.

Posted: **November 17th, 2017, 7:46 pm**

drtanner wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 9:18 am How do you discern whether these experiences are real?

Good question! Honestly, how can we discern whether anything is really real? For all I know I could be a brain in a jar.

drtanner wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 9:18 am Would it be important to develop the ability to judge these experiences?

If punishment and/or reward hang in the balance, preferably yes.

drtanner wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 9:18 amWhat are your thoughts on casual visits and conversation claims?

I believe that some people claiming visits really believe what they perceive. I usually hear them out for curiosity's sake. Reason tells me there are plenty of people out there just saying stuff to take advantage of others too. I can't tell them apart.

drtanner wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 9:18 am Have any of you known someone who claimed this but later admitted it did not happen?

Me, I guess? I understood it metaphorically, so it only metaphorically happened. I suppose I still believe that it metaphorically happened...Maybe that doesn't count?

I can explain- I reasoned that I had received my baptism by fire. To me (at the time), that meant that the Holy Ghost ratified (or approved of) my baptism so the ordinance was finally complete. Some scriptures I read led me to believe that, after baptism, you take Christs name upon yourself. That meant that I was "Jesus Christ" (I took his name) and I saw "him" "In the flesh" every day when I looked into the mirror. I honestly thought we were all supposed to see it symbolically like that...or similar....As with most scripture, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when I look at it literally.

Posted: **November 18th, 2017, 4:50 am**

I am curious. How many people who have posted in this thread are living their lives seeking to rend the veil of unbelief (Ether 4) and see Him face to face as the brother of Jared?

Posted: **November 19th, 2017, 9:20 am**

marc wrote: ↑November 18th, 2017, 4:50 am I am curious. How many people who have posted in this thread are living their lives seeking to rend the veil of unbelief (Ether 4) and see Him face to face as the brother of Jared?

Not me. Why should that be the aim? This life is the time to prepare to meet God. I have no intention of rending the veil of unbelief, but to strive to serve our Father and live life in righteousness. If it so be that I reach that stage, then great. But that is not the be all and end all.

I think you've missed a point. The Brother of Jared was in conversation with the Lord when he saw his finger (because of his exceeding faith). He was the prophet. He was in a special, sacred moment, and befitting of that occasion, his eyes were opened and saw all.

Fair enough, I'm now where near that level of faith. I doubt many are. Are we expected to see the Lord? No. I don't believe Jehovah will be showing himself to random people. As I say, the brother of Jared saw, but he was already in a direct conversation with him, in a very sacred moment. The circumstances of his "rending the veil" are very different to the random people who claim to have seen Jesus.

It is not a mark of righteousness to have seen Christ. Yet, it is used in that sense, and as I say, in the past it was used in that sense on this forum. I don't feel that should be our aim.

Posted: **November 19th, 2017, 3:16 pm**

For those that don't put seeing and conversing with The Lord as a priority in their lives (which is their choice of course), I'm curious how they interpret John 17:3, Psalms 27:8, or D&C 101:38 to name a few verses.

Posted: **November 19th, 2017, 3:18 pm**

JustDan wrote: ↑November 19th, 2017, 9:20 am
marc wrote: ↑November 18th, 2017, 4:50 am I am curious. How many people who have posted in this thread are living their lives seeking to rend the veil of unbelief (Ether 4) and see Him face to face as the brother of Jared?
Not me. Why should that be the aim? This life is the time to prepare to meet God. I have no intention of rending the veil of unbelief, but to strive to serve our Father and live life in righteousness. If it so be that I reach that stage, then great. But that is not the be all and end all.

I think you've missed a point. The Brother of Jared was in conversation with the Lord when he saw his finger (because of his exceeding faith). He was the prophet. He was in a special, sacred moment, and befitting of that occasion, his eyes were opened and saw all.

Fair enough, I'm now where near that level of faith. I doubt many are. Are we expected to see the Lord? No. I don't believe Jehovah will be showing himself to random people. As I say, the brother of Jared saw, but he was already in a direct conversation with him, in a very sacred moment. The circumstances of his "rending the veil" are very different to the random people who claim to have seen Jesus.

It is not a mark of righteousness to have seen Christ. Yet, it is used in that sense, and as I say, in the past it was used in that sense on this forum. I don't feel that should be our aim.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. May I recommend reading my posts in the link below and if you have further thoughts on what I posted and how I posted, I would love to know them. Thank you.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=46383

Posted: **November 19th, 2017, 3:35 pm**

JustDan wrote: ↑November 19th, 2017, 9:20 am
marc wrote: ↑November 18th, 2017, 4:50 am I am curious. How many people who have posted in this thread are living their lives seeking to rend the veil of unbelief (Ether 4) and see Him face to face as the brother of Jared?
Not me. Why should that be the aim? This life is the time to prepare to meet God. I have no intention of rending the veil of unbelief, but to strive to serve our Father and live life in righteousness. If it so be that I reach that stage, then great. But that is not the be all and end all.

I think you've missed a point. The Brother of Jared was in conversation with the Lord when he saw his finger (because of his exceeding faith). He was the prophet. He was in a special, sacred moment, and befitting of that occasion, his eyes were opened and saw all.

Fair enough, I'm now where near that level of faith. I doubt many are. Are we expected to see the Lord? No. I don't believe Jehovah will be showing himself to random people. As I say, the brother of Jared saw, but he was already in a direct conversation with him, in a very sacred moment. The circumstances of his "rending the veil" are very different to the random people who claim to have seen Jesus.

It is not a mark of righteousness to have seen Christ. Yet, it is used in that sense, and as I say, in the past it was used in that sense on this forum. I don't feel that should be our aim.

We have something that the brother of Jared did not have----the book of mormon.. We are designated to be the people that every dispensation (from what I understand) had the same opportunity to accomplish---- to usher in Zion. If we truly understand the message of the Book of Mormon we would seek for a greater portion of God's word / to rend the veil of our unbelief. There is so much at our disposal in these last days (for a purpose) for our growth... to help the Lord and his purposes to usher in Zion.

Posted: **November 19th, 2017, 5:07 pm**

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 4:23 am Many years ago, the women in my household came home from a women's conference with a very interesting report.
Elder Bednar and his Wife were the speakers. They did not have a topic, they answered questions from the audience.
One question and answer has stuck in my mind. A young lady said she was trying to have a personal relationship
with Christ but felt that just wasn't happening. Elder Bednar's response amazing.
"You don't understand, the only relationship you can have with the Savior is to be in complete and utter awe
of who he is and what he has done."

This is a great quote! I would that I could know first hand of its accuracy... not doubting you, but third hand quotes are always of shaky reliability. But, that said, I love the teaching. Thanks for sharing. I wish all could accept that idea. But some want to hold onto what they currently believe.

Posted: **November 19th, 2017, 5:17 pm**

in the case of elder whitney, he was told, "That will depend entirely upon yourself."

http://www.mormonhaven.com/whitney.htm

Posted: **November 19th, 2017, 5:23 pm**

sushi_chef wrote: ↑November 19th, 2017, 5:17 pm in the case of elder whitney, he was told, "That will depend entirely upon yourself."

http://www.mormonhaven.com/whitney.htm

That was beautiful!

Posted: **November 20th, 2017, 6:39 am**

Rand wrote: ↑November 19th, 2017, 5:07 pm
Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 4:23 am Many years ago, the women in my household came home from a women's conference with a very interesting report.
Elder Bednar and his Wife were the speakers. They did not have a topic, they answered questions from the audience.
One question and answer has stuck in my mind. A young lady said she was trying to have a personal relationship
with Christ but felt that just wasn't happening. Elder Bednar's response amazing.
"You don't understand, the only relationship you can have with the Savior is to be in complete and utter awe
of who he is and what he has done."
This is a great quote! I would that I could know first hand of its accuracy... not doubting you, but third hand quotes are always of shaky reliability. But, that said, I love the teaching. Thanks for sharing. I wish all could accept that idea. But some want to hold onto what they currently believe.

Revelation 3
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

It is unfortunate if Elder Bednar. Actually said that. Contextually maybe there is more to it than what was said in this quote? Scriptures tell us to draw near unto Christ and he will draw near unto us. To the extent that we abide in him he can and will abide in and with us. Christ is not meant to be just a grand story or a beautiful picture on the wall to be emotional and rejoice over-- he is meant to: "for I will go before your face. I will be on your right hand and on your left, and my Spirit shall be in your hearts, and mine dangels round about you, to bear you up."

Lets start to hear his voice

D&C 93
Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Posted: **November 20th, 2017, 10:43 am**

I used to be discouraged about having a relationship with someone I was not even speaking to. How would praying to God bring me closer to Jesus Christ? Then, after the Lord humbled me sufficiently, I began to read my scriptures in earnest. I began to pray with all the energy of soul and began to worship God with all my might. I was hungering and thirsting after righteousness. All of the sudden, I was in utter awe of Jesus Christ and what he has done! (For context, this was over a period months and my knowledge increased as my diligence was proven.)

From reading my scriptures and attendant revelation, the character of Christ began to unfold before me: His goodness, His mercy, His kindness and quickness to forgive, His humor and humility and utter accessibility. This knowledge gave me confidence to put my trust in him and as I tried the goodness of the Lord, my faith in Him grew and I trusted him even more. This trust and confidence led to great spiritual blessings which led me to trust Him even more. A divine spiral upwards.

During this process (the essential part of the divine spiral), I was submitting myself to the will of the Lord by following good ideas and promptings that came to me. I started to really notice and pay attention to all those promptings to do good and actually follow them. I tried not to let one fall to the ground. I began to realize that the promptings were the voice of the Lord and as I inclined my ear to listen, I was coming to know my Savior. I was in divine partnership with with the King of Kings and I could draw from His inexhaustible abundance according to my need. How good He is and how kind. Despite my utter unworthiness and ability to muster any righteousness on my own, He has covered me in the robes of His righteousness and has lent to me some of His goodness, according to my faith and confidence in Him.

Psalms 17
15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Posted: **November 20th, 2017, 11:05 am**

True wrote: ↑November 20th, 2017, 10:43 am I used to be discouraged about having a relationship with someone I was not even speaking to. How would praying to God bring me closer to Jesus Christ? Then, after the Lord humbled me sufficiently, I began to read my scriptures in earnest. I began to pray with all the energy of soul and began to worship God with all my might. I was hungering and thirsting after righteousness. All of the sudden, I was in utter awe of Jesus Christ and what he has done! (For context, this was over a period months and my knowledge increased as my diligence was proven.)

From reading my scriptures and attendant revelation, the character of Christ began to unfold before me: His goodness, His mercy, His kindness and quickness to forgive, His humor and humility and utter accessibility. This knowledge gave me confidence to put my trust in him and as I tried the goodness of the Lord, my faith in Him grew and I trusted him even more. This trust and confidence led to great spiritual blessings which led me to trust Him even more. A divine spiral upwards.

During this process (the essential part of the divine spiral), I was submitting myself to the will of the Lord by following good ideas and promptings that came to me. I started to really notice and pay attention to all those promptings to do good and actually follow them. I tried not to let one fall to the ground. I began to realize that the promptings were the voice of the Lord and as I inclined my ear to listen, I was coming to know my Savior. I was in divine partnership with with the King of Kings and I could draw from His inexhaustible abundance according to my need. How good He is and how kind. Despite my utter unworthiness and ability to muster any righteousness on my own, He has covered me in the robes of His righteousness and has lent to me some of His goodness, according to my faith and confidence in Him.

Psalms 17
15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

Beautiful post. Thank you Sister True.

Posted: **November 20th, 2017, 11:39 am**

marc wrote: ↑November 18th, 2017, 4:50 am I am curious. How many people who have posted in this thread are living their lives seeking to rend the veil of unbelief (Ether 4) and see Him face to face as the brother of Jared?

I have faith that all of the promises that are in the scriptures are available to all. My priority is not to try and force an experience but to simply love him and others as best I can, do my best to keep the covenants I have made, make sure I am in harmony with the teachings of the living prophets, and try and do many things of my own free will to partner with him in his work. I often fall short and find myself wishing I could do more. I have no agenda or expectation with the Lord but do try and keep his commandments and serve others and let him do with me as he will in his own time and way. I would say at the moment these words would describe my feelings:

Either: 3:2...Now behold, O Lord, and do not be angry with thy servant because of his weakness before thee; for we know that thou art holy and dwellest in the heavens, and that we are unworthy before thee; because of the fall our natures have become evil continually; nevertheless, O Lord, thou hast given us a commandment that we must call upon thee, that from thee we may receive according to our desires.

3 Behold, O Lord, thou hast smitten us because of our iniquity, and hast driven us forth, and for these many years we have been in the wilderness; nevertheless, thou hast been merciful unto us. O Lord, look upon me in pity,...

Posted: **November 20th, 2017, 11:42 am**

Thank you for sharing your personal thoughts, drtanner.

Posted: **November 20th, 2017, 12:09 pm**

I wasn't aware lots of people are seeing Christ. If so that's awesome to hear.

I assume the twelve see Jesus. Is that a good assumption?

But a friend and I were talking the other day, and she brought up what I thought was a good point. She said, anybody who sees Christ or an angel AND is given a message, like King Benjamin was, must be obedient and share that message, assuming he was commanded to share the message.

I suppose Christ appears to people. My wife just finished a book about a Mormon convert who is tatooed all over her body. She said Jesus appeared to her, and smiled at her. She wasn't commanded to share a specific message. So it appears Christ can appear as a way to comfort or do a personal ministry, but that is to be distinguished from appearing and then commanding that person to deliver a message.

Is anybody out there proclaiming to have seen Jesus and to a have a message? I'm not aware any of the Twelve claim this, but I've assumed they meet Jesus.

Posted: **November 20th, 2017, 12:34 pm**

Ether 1:43. “This Long Time Ye Have Cried unto Me”
"The Lord explained to the brother of Jared that blessings had come to his people as a result of prayers offered over a long time. Enduring obedience coupled with frequent and persistent prayers is powerful. In an 1839 discourse in Commerce, Illinois, the Prophet Joseph Smith taught: “God is not a respecter of persons, we all have the same privilege. Come to God weary him until he blesses you &c we are entitled to the same blessings” ([recorded in Willard Richards Pocket Companion, 78–79] cited in The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of the Prophet Joseph, comp. Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook [1980], 15).

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