Remnant scriptures on Polygamy

[inquirringmind]

Even Denver's edited version of D&C 132 (which was section 54) has been removed from the remnant scriptures, and this is from their pearls of great price.

Concerning Marriage and Sealings:
Marriage is to be between one man and one woman, as originally established by God be-
tween Adam and Eve. The children of Adam and Eve likewise were married as two, a man and
a woman. Taking multiple wives was introduced by the descendants of the first murderer, and
is not considered a reflection of the image of God, as originally revealed to Adam. The image
of God was in the couple, Adam and Eve, which were one man and one woman. Likewise, the
apostle confirmed that neither the man without the woman, nor the woman without the man
is approved of the Lord. The ceremony for contracting marriage should be as directed by the
Spirit. It is anticipated that when a temple is commanded to be built and its rites are available,
marriage will be included in the ceremonies there.

Their position now seems to be that Joseph never practiced polygamy, and isn't that what the reorganized church always said?

Could they be right?

There doesn't seem to be any evidence that Joseph ever fathered any children with anyone but Emma, and she never admitted he had any other wives, did she?

And the women who later signed affidavits that they had been sealed to Joseph, or married to him, or sealed to him as plural wives (when the Utah church was engaged in a court battle over property with the Temple Lot church) could have been coerced into lying, couldn't they?

And aren't most of them a little vague about whether they had sexual relations with Joseph during this life?

So is there any real first hand evidence that Joseph practiced polygamy?

The only thing I can think of that might be first hand evidence are some entries in William Clayton's journal, but couldn't they have been forged?

[Arenera]

A break off sect has to have differences, this is one of the key breakoff points.

How do they explain off Abraham? Moses? And even more pointedly Jacob who was given the name Israel, which the covenant people are known as the children of Israel?

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Abraham and Jacob having both more than 1 wife.

Denver has written his own history of how he wants things to be, but it is only Denver. And don't you find it interesting that John Doe has been violating Denver's position for years?

I don't know if they included Oliver's section on marriage which is about one man and one woman, if they did, they went against Joseph who did not want that in the D&C. If you think that Joseph didn't practice plural marriage, you are mislead because all the evidence points to it.

http://josephsmithspolygamy.org/

Emma Smith, Joseph’s legal wife, tried desperately to accept the principle of plural marriage. According to her biographers, she “vacillated between reluctant acceptance and determined opposition to the marriages” of her husband.
Emma participated in four plural sealings in May of 1843 by approving the candidate wives and placing each woman’s hand upon Joseph’s during the ceremony. Within weeks, her experiences in a plural household became unbearable for her, and she withdrew her support.

[Mindfields]

So Joseph constantly lied about his involvement with polygamy? Maybe he was telling the truth and didn't have anything to do with polygamy other than trying to rid the church of it.

"my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of among all people."

He certainly got that bit right.

[Col. Flagg]

Jacob Cochran
John C. Bennett
William Clayton
Orson Hyde

These four men had more to do with polygamy infiltrating the church and becoming cemented in its history than anyone or anything and they were also mostly responsible for Joseph's persecution, mob actions, false accusations and public condemnation of practicing polygamy. Brigham Young is a close 5th. The truth is out there.

[Arenera]

Jacob Cochran
John C. Bennett
William Clayton
Orson Hyde

These four men had more to do with polygamy infiltrating the church and becoming cemented in its history than anyone or anything and they were also mostly responsible for Joseph's persecution, mob actions, false accusations and public condemnation of practicing polygamy. Brigham Young is a close 5th. The truth is out there.

What about Abraham, Israel, House of Israel, Children of Israel, God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

You mentioned 5 names including Brigham Young, all are puny compared to Christ. Christ commanded Joseph and Joseph obeyed, and so polygamy was practices in our dispensation.

[Finrock]

Jacob Cochran
John C. Bennett
William Clayton
Orson Hyde

These four men had more to do with polygamy infiltrating the church and becoming cemented in its history than anyone or anything and they were also mostly responsible for Joseph's persecution, mob actions, false accusations and public condemnation of practicing polygamy. Brigham Young is a close 5th. The truth is out there.

What about Abraham, Israel, House of Israel, Children of Israel, God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

You mentioned 5 names including Brigham Young, all are puny compared to Christ. Christ commanded Joseph and Joseph obeyed, and so polygamy was practices in our dispensation.

Joseph Smith publicly denied that he practiced polygamy.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Yea, and Abraham denied publicly 3 times to Rulers and monarchs that Sarah was his wife!

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Yea, and Abraham denied publicly 3 times to Rulers and monarchs that Sarah was his wife!

Regards,

George Clay

So?

-Finrock

[Arenera]

Jacob Cochran
John C. Bennett
William Clayton
Orson Hyde

These four men had more to do with polygamy infiltrating the church and becoming cemented in its history than anyone or anything and they were also mostly responsible for Joseph's persecution, mob actions, false accusations and public condemnation of practicing polygamy. Brigham Young is a close 5th. The truth is out there.

What about Abraham, Israel, House of Israel, Children of Israel, God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

You mentioned 5 names including Brigham Young, all are puny compared to Christ. Christ commanded Joseph and Joseph obeyed, and so polygamy was practices in our dispensation.

Joseph Smith publicly denied that he practiced polygamy.

-Finrock

But he did practice polygamy. What about the House of Israel? Surely Christ and God would not condone plural marriage if it was considered an abomination, yet we are the Children of Israel. Do you deny your tribe?

Read this about Joseph. Polygamy and the Martyrdom

[gclayjr]

Finrock.

Joseph Smith publicly denied that he practiced polygamy.

So?

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Jacob Cochran
John C. Bennett
William Clayton
Orson Hyde

These four men had more to do with polygamy infiltrating the church and becoming cemented in its history than anyone or anything and they were also mostly responsible for Joseph's persecution, mob actions, false accusations and public condemnation of practicing polygamy. Brigham Young is a close 5th. The truth is out there.

What about Abraham, Israel, House of Israel, Children of Israel, God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

You mentioned 5 names including Brigham Young, all are puny compared to Christ. Christ commanded Joseph and Joseph obeyed, and so polygamy was practices in our dispensation.

Joseph Smith publicly denied that he practiced polygamy.

-Finrock

But he did practice polygamy. What about the House of Israel? Surely Christ and God would not condone plural marriage if it was considered an abomination, yet we are the Children of Israel. Do you deny your tribe?

Read this about Joseph. Polygamy and the Martyrdom

I believe Joseph Smith.

I don't follow the logic of your statement about the children of Israel, etc., and I don't understand what you are saying. Please expand on it.

-Finrock

[Arenera]

What about Abraham, Israel, House of Israel, Children of Israel, God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob?

You mentioned 5 names including Brigham Young, all are puny compared to Christ. Christ commanded Joseph and Joseph obeyed, and so polygamy was practices in our dispensation.

Joseph Smith publicly denied that he practiced polygamy.

-Finrock

But he did practice polygamy. What about the House of Israel? Surely Christ and God would not condone plural marriage if it was considered an abomination, yet we are the Children of Israel. Do you deny your tribe?

Read this about Joseph. Polygamy and the Martyrdom

I believe Joseph Smith.

I don't follow the logic of your statement about the children of Israel, etc., and I don't understand what you are saying. Please expand on it.

-Finrock

Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. Jacob, or Israel, practiced polygamy. If it was an abomination, we wouldn't be the children of Israel. Abraham practiced polygamy. We are under the Abrahamic Covenant.

Israel
See also Abraham—The seed of Abraham; Adoption; Jacob, Son of Isaac

The Lord gave the name Israel to Jacob, the son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham in the Old Testament (Gen. 32:28; 35:10). The name Israel can refer to Jacob himself, his descendants, or to the kingdom those descendants once possessed in Old Testament times (2 Sam. 1:24; 23:3). After Moses led the children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage (Ex. 3–14), they were ruled over by judges for over three hundred years. Beginning with King Saul, kings ruled over united Israel until the death of Solomon, when ten tribes revolted from Rehoboam to form a separate nation. After the kingdom of Israel was divided, the northern tribes, as the larger part, kept the name Israel, while the southern kingdom was called Judah. The land of Canaan is also called Israel today. In another sense, Israel means a true believer in Christ (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12).

The twelve tribes of Israel
Abraham’s grandson Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, had twelve sons. Their descendants have become known as the twelve tribes of Israel or the children of Israel. These are the twelve tribes: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun (the sons of Jacob and Leah); Dan and Naphtali (the sons of Jacob and Bilhah); Gad and Asher (the sons of Jacob and Zilpah); Joseph and Benjamin (the sons of Jacob and Rachel) (Gen. 29:32–30:24; 35:16–18).

Jacob gave each tribal leader a blessing before his death (Gen. 49:1–28). For further information, see the name of each son of Jacob.

Reuben, the firstborn son of Jacob’s first wife, Leah, lost his birthright blessing and double portion of inheritance because of immorality (Gen. 49:3–4). The birthright then went to Joseph, who was the firstborn son of Jacob’s second wife, Rachel (1 Chr. 5:1–2). Levi, whose tribe the Lord had chosen to serve as His priesthood ministers, did not receive an inheritance because of their special calling to minister among all the tribes. This allowed Joseph’s double portion to be shared by Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh (1 Chr. 5:1; Jer. 31:9), who were counted as separate tribes of Israel (JST, Gen. 48:5–6 [Appendix]).

Members of the tribe of Judah were to be the rulers until the Messiah came (Gen. 49:10; JST, Gen. 50:24 [Appendix]). In the last days the tribe of Ephraim has the privilege of carrying the message of the Restoration of the gospel to the world and gathering scattered Israel (Deut. 33:13–17). The time will come when through the gospel of Jesus Christ, Ephraim will have a leadership role in uniting all the tribes of Israel (Isa. 11:12–13; D&C 133:26–34).

The scattering of Israel
The Lord scattered and afflicted the twelve tribes of Israel because of their unrighteousness and rebellion. However, the Lord also used this scattering of His chosen people among the nations of the world to bless those nations.

I will scatter you among the heathen, Lev. 26:33.

The Lord shall scatter thee among all people, Deut. 28:25, 37, 64.

I will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, Jer. 29:18–19.

I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, Amos 9:9 (Zech. 10:9).

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 15:24.

I have other sheep which are not of this fold, John 10:16.

Israel shall be scattered upon all the face of the earth, 1 Ne. 22:3–8.

Jacob sets forth Zenos’s allegory of the tame and wild olive trees, Jacob 5–6.

The work of the Father will commence among the dispersed tribes, 3 Ne. 21:26.

The gathering of Israel
The house of Israel shall be gathered together in the last days before the coming of Christ (A of F 1:10). The Lord gathers His people Israel when they accept Him and keep His commandments.

He will lift up an ensign and they shall come, Isa. 5:26.

With great mercies will I gather thee, Isa. 54:7.

Israel and Judah are to be gathered to their lands, Jer. 30:3.

The Lord shall gather the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, Ezek. 28:25.

In the dispensation of the fulness of times he will gather in one all things in Christ, Eph. 1:10.

After Israel is scattered, they will be gathered, 1 Ne. 15:12–17.

The Lord will gather in all people of the house of Israel, 1 Ne. 19:16 (3 Ne. 16:5).

They shall be brought out of darkness and know that the Lord is their Savior, 1 Ne. 22:12.

God gathers and numbers his children, 1 Ne. 22:25.

The nations of the Gentiles shall carry Israel forth to the lands of their inheritance, 2 Ne. 10:8 (3 Ne. 16:4).

My people and my word shall be gathered as one, 2 Ne. 29:13–14.

The elders are called to gather the elect, D&C 29:7 (D&C 39:11).

I will gather mine elect, D&C 33:6.

Gather so that I may give you my law and that you may be endowed, D&C 38:31–33.

I will recover my people, who are of the house of Israel, D&C 39:11.

The Saints shall come forth, D&C 45:46.

Moses delivered the keys of the gathering, D&C 110:11.

Righteousness and truth will sweep the earth and gather out the Lord’s elect, Moses 7:62.

The gathering is compared to the gathering of eagles to a carcass, JS—M 1:27.

The ten lost tribes of Israel
The ten tribes of Israel made up the northern kingdom of Israel and were carried away captive into Assyria in 721 B.C. At that time they went to the “north countries” and became lost to the knowledge of others. In the last days they will return.

I will say to the north, Give up, Isa. 43:6.

These shall come from the north, Isa. 49:12 (1 Ne. 21:12).

Judah and Israel shall come together out of the land of the north, Jer. 3:18.

The Lord liveth who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, Jer. 16:14–16.

I will bring them from the north country, Jer. 31:8.

The Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel, 2 Ne. 29:12–13.

I go to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, 3 Ne. 17:4.

When the gospel is preached to the remnant of the house of Israel, the lost tribes will be gathered home to the land of their inheritance, 3 Ne. 21:26–29.

Moses committed the keys of the gathering of Israel to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, D&C 110:11.

They who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord, D&C 133:26–32.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel, A of F 1:10

[Finrock]

Joseph Smith publicly denied that he practiced polygamy.

-Finrock

But he did practice polygamy. What about the House of Israel? Surely Christ and God would not condone plural marriage if it was considered an abomination, yet we are the Children of Israel. Do you deny your tribe?

Read this about Joseph. Polygamy and the Martyrdom

I believe Joseph Smith.

I don't follow the logic of your statement about the children of Israel, etc., and I don't understand what you are saying. Please expand on it.

-Finrock

Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. Jacob, or Israel, practiced polygamy. If it was an abomination, we wouldn't be the children of Israel. Abraham practiced polygamy. We are under the Abrahamic Covenant.

Israel
See also Abraham—The seed of Abraham; Adoption; Jacob, Son of Isaac

The Lord gave the name Israel to Jacob, the son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham in the Old Testament (Gen. 32:28; 35:10). The name Israel can refer to Jacob himself, his descendants, or to the kingdom those descendants once possessed in Old Testament times (2 Sam. 1:24; 23:3). After Moses led the children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage (Ex. 3–14), they were ruled over by judges for over three hundred years. Beginning with King Saul, kings ruled over united Israel until the death of Solomon, when ten tribes revolted from Rehoboam to form a separate nation. After the kingdom of Israel was divided, the northern tribes, as the larger part, kept the name Israel, while the southern kingdom was called Judah. The land of Canaan is also called Israel today. In another sense, Israel means a true believer in Christ (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12).

The twelve tribes of Israel
Abraham’s grandson Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, had twelve sons. Their descendants have become known as the twelve tribes of Israel or the children of Israel. These are the twelve tribes: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun (the sons of Jacob and Leah); Dan and Naphtali (the sons of Jacob and Bilhah); Gad and Asher (the sons of Jacob and Zilpah); Joseph and Benjamin (the sons of Jacob and Rachel) (Gen. 29:32–30:24; 35:16–18).

Jacob gave each tribal leader a blessing before his death (Gen. 49:1–28). For further information, see the name of each son of Jacob.

Reuben, the firstborn son of Jacob’s first wife, Leah, lost his birthright blessing and double portion of inheritance because of immorality (Gen. 49:3–4). The birthright then went to Joseph, who was the firstborn son of Jacob’s second wife, Rachel (1 Chr. 5:1–2). Levi, whose tribe the Lord had chosen to serve as His priesthood ministers, did not receive an inheritance because of their special calling to minister among all the tribes. This allowed Joseph’s double portion to be shared by Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh (1 Chr. 5:1; Jer. 31:9), who were counted as separate tribes of Israel (JST, Gen. 48:5–6 [Appendix]).

Members of the tribe of Judah were to be the rulers until the Messiah came (Gen. 49:10; JST, Gen. 50:24 [Appendix]). In the last days the tribe of Ephraim has the privilege of carrying the message of the Restoration of the gospel to the world and gathering scattered Israel (Deut. 33:13–17). The time will come when through the gospel of Jesus Christ, Ephraim will have a leadership role in uniting all the tribes of Israel (Isa. 11:12–13; D&C 133:26–34).

The scattering of Israel
The Lord scattered and afflicted the twelve tribes of Israel because of their unrighteousness and rebellion. However, the Lord also used this scattering of His chosen people among the nations of the world to bless those nations.

I will scatter you among the heathen, Lev. 26:33.

The Lord shall scatter thee among all people, Deut. 28:25, 37, 64.

I will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, Jer. 29:18–19.

I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, Amos 9:9 (Zech. 10:9).

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 15:24.

I have other sheep which are not of this fold, John 10:16.

Israel shall be scattered upon all the face of the earth, 1 Ne. 22:3–8.

Jacob sets forth Zenos’s allegory of the tame and wild olive trees, Jacob 5–6.

The work of the Father will commence among the dispersed tribes, 3 Ne. 21:26.

The gathering of Israel
The house of Israel shall be gathered together in the last days before the coming of Christ (A of F 1:10). The Lord gathers His people Israel when they accept Him and keep His commandments.

He will lift up an ensign and they shall come, Isa. 5:26.

With great mercies will I gather thee, Isa. 54:7.

Israel and Judah are to be gathered to their lands, Jer. 30:3.

The Lord shall gather the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, Ezek. 28:25.

In the dispensation of the fulness of times he will gather in one all things in Christ, Eph. 1:10.

After Israel is scattered, they will be gathered, 1 Ne. 15:12–17.

The Lord will gather in all people of the house of Israel, 1 Ne. 19:16 (3 Ne. 16:5).

They shall be brought out of darkness and know that the Lord is their Savior, 1 Ne. 22:12.

God gathers and numbers his children, 1 Ne. 22:25.

The nations of the Gentiles shall carry Israel forth to the lands of their inheritance, 2 Ne. 10:8 (3 Ne. 16:4).

My people and my word shall be gathered as one, 2 Ne. 29:13–14.

The elders are called to gather the elect, D&C 29:7 (D&C 39:11).

I will gather mine elect, D&C 33:6.

Gather so that I may give you my law and that you may be endowed, D&C 38:31–33.

I will recover my people, who are of the house of Israel, D&C 39:11.

The Saints shall come forth, D&C 45:46.

Moses delivered the keys of the gathering, D&C 110:11.

Righteousness and truth will sweep the earth and gather out the Lord’s elect, Moses 7:62.

The gathering is compared to the gathering of eagles to a carcass, JS—M 1:27.

The ten lost tribes of Israel
The ten tribes of Israel made up the northern kingdom of Israel and were carried away captive into Assyria in 721 B.C. At that time they went to the “north countries” and became lost to the knowledge of others. In the last days they will return.

I will say to the north, Give up, Isa. 43:6.

These shall come from the north, Isa. 49:12 (1 Ne. 21:12).

Judah and Israel shall come together out of the land of the north, Jer. 3:18.

The Lord liveth who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, Jer. 16:14–16.

I will bring them from the north country, Jer. 31:8.

The Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel, 2 Ne. 29:12–13.

I go to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, 3 Ne. 17:4.

When the gospel is preached to the remnant of the house of Israel, the lost tribes will be gathered home to the land of their inheritance, 3 Ne. 21:26–29.

Moses committed the keys of the gathering of Israel to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, D&C 110:11.

They who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord, D&C 133:26–32.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel, A of F 1:10

I believe Joseph Smith.

I still don't get what you mean when you say "if [polygamy] was an abomination, we wouldn't be the children of Israel". Why is this true? The children of Israel can exist even if polygamy is an abomination.

-Finrock

[Arenera]

But he did practice polygamy. What about the House of Israel? Surely Christ and God would not condone plural marriage if it was considered an abomination, yet we are the Children of Israel. Do you deny your tribe?

Read this about Joseph. Polygamy and the Martyrdom

I believe Joseph Smith.

I don't follow the logic of your statement about the children of Israel, etc., and I don't understand what you are saying. Please expand on it.

-Finrock

Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. Jacob, or Israel, practiced polygamy. If it was an abomination, we wouldn't be the children of Israel. Abraham practiced polygamy. We are under the Abrahamic Covenant.

Israel
See also Abraham—The seed of Abraham; Adoption; Jacob, Son of Isaac

The Lord gave the name Israel to Jacob, the son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham in the Old Testament (Gen. 32:28; 35:10). The name Israel can refer to Jacob himself, his descendants, or to the kingdom those descendants once possessed in Old Testament times (2 Sam. 1:24; 23:3). After Moses led the children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage (Ex. 3–14), they were ruled over by judges for over three hundred years. Beginning with King Saul, kings ruled over united Israel until the death of Solomon, when ten tribes revolted from Rehoboam to form a separate nation. After the kingdom of Israel was divided, the northern tribes, as the larger part, kept the name Israel, while the southern kingdom was called Judah. The land of Canaan is also called Israel today. In another sense, Israel means a true believer in Christ (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12).

The twelve tribes of Israel
Abraham’s grandson Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, had twelve sons. Their descendants have become known as the twelve tribes of Israel or the children of Israel. These are the twelve tribes: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun (the sons of Jacob and Leah); Dan and Naphtali (the sons of Jacob and Bilhah); Gad and Asher (the sons of Jacob and Zilpah); Joseph and Benjamin (the sons of Jacob and Rachel) (Gen. 29:32–30:24; 35:16–18).

Jacob gave each tribal leader a blessing before his death (Gen. 49:1–28). For further information, see the name of each son of Jacob.

Reuben, the firstborn son of Jacob’s first wife, Leah, lost his birthright blessing and double portion of inheritance because of immorality (Gen. 49:3–4). The birthright then went to Joseph, who was the firstborn son of Jacob’s second wife, Rachel (1 Chr. 5:1–2). Levi, whose tribe the Lord had chosen to serve as His priesthood ministers, did not receive an inheritance because of their special calling to minister among all the tribes. This allowed Joseph’s double portion to be shared by Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh (1 Chr. 5:1; Jer. 31:9), who were counted as separate tribes of Israel (JST, Gen. 48:5–6 [Appendix]).

Members of the tribe of Judah were to be the rulers until the Messiah came (Gen. 49:10; JST, Gen. 50:24 [Appendix]). In the last days the tribe of Ephraim has the privilege of carrying the message of the Restoration of the gospel to the world and gathering scattered Israel (Deut. 33:13–17). The time will come when through the gospel of Jesus Christ, Ephraim will have a leadership role in uniting all the tribes of Israel (Isa. 11:12–13; D&C 133:26–34).

The scattering of Israel
The Lord scattered and afflicted the twelve tribes of Israel because of their unrighteousness and rebellion. However, the Lord also used this scattering of His chosen people among the nations of the world to bless those nations.

I will scatter you among the heathen, Lev. 26:33.

The Lord shall scatter thee among all people, Deut. 28:25, 37, 64.

I will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, Jer. 29:18–19.

I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, Amos 9:9 (Zech. 10:9).

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 15:24.

I have other sheep which are not of this fold, John 10:16.

Israel shall be scattered upon all the face of the earth, 1 Ne. 22:3–8.

Jacob sets forth Zenos’s allegory of the tame and wild olive trees, Jacob 5–6.

The work of the Father will commence among the dispersed tribes, 3 Ne. 21:26.

The gathering of Israel
The house of Israel shall be gathered together in the last days before the coming of Christ (A of F 1:10). The Lord gathers His people Israel when they accept Him and keep His commandments.

He will lift up an ensign and they shall come, Isa. 5:26.

With great mercies will I gather thee, Isa. 54:7.

Israel and Judah are to be gathered to their lands, Jer. 30:3.

The Lord shall gather the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, Ezek. 28:25.

In the dispensation of the fulness of times he will gather in one all things in Christ, Eph. 1:10.

After Israel is scattered, they will be gathered, 1 Ne. 15:12–17.

The Lord will gather in all people of the house of Israel, 1 Ne. 19:16 (3 Ne. 16:5).

They shall be brought out of darkness and know that the Lord is their Savior, 1 Ne. 22:12.

God gathers and numbers his children, 1 Ne. 22:25.

The nations of the Gentiles shall carry Israel forth to the lands of their inheritance, 2 Ne. 10:8 (3 Ne. 16:4).

My people and my word shall be gathered as one, 2 Ne. 29:13–14.

The elders are called to gather the elect, D&C 29:7 (D&C 39:11).

I will gather mine elect, D&C 33:6.

Gather so that I may give you my law and that you may be endowed, D&C 38:31–33.

I will recover my people, who are of the house of Israel, D&C 39:11.

The Saints shall come forth, D&C 45:46.

Moses delivered the keys of the gathering, D&C 110:11.

Righteousness and truth will sweep the earth and gather out the Lord’s elect, Moses 7:62.

The gathering is compared to the gathering of eagles to a carcass, JS—M 1:27.

The ten lost tribes of Israel
The ten tribes of Israel made up the northern kingdom of Israel and were carried away captive into Assyria in 721 B.C. At that time they went to the “north countries” and became lost to the knowledge of others. In the last days they will return.

I will say to the north, Give up, Isa. 43:6.

These shall come from the north, Isa. 49:12 (1 Ne. 21:12).

Judah and Israel shall come together out of the land of the north, Jer. 3:18.

The Lord liveth who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, Jer. 16:14–16.

I will bring them from the north country, Jer. 31:8.

The Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel, 2 Ne. 29:12–13.

I go to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, 3 Ne. 17:4.

When the gospel is preached to the remnant of the house of Israel, the lost tribes will be gathered home to the land of their inheritance, 3 Ne. 21:26–29.

Moses committed the keys of the gathering of Israel to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, D&C 110:11.

They who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord, D&C 133:26–32.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel, A of F 1:10

I believe Joseph Smith.

I still don't get what you mean when you say "if [polygamy] was an abomination, we wouldn't be the children of Israel". Why is this true? The children of Israel can exist even if polygamy is an abomination.

-Finrock

You're not using good logic, so let's move closer to our time.

You say Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy. Ok, Brigham Young and the other leaders did. So, do you propose the Church apostacized at the death of Joseph Smith? Or is this something you can't or won't answer?

[Finrock]

I believe Joseph Smith.

I don't follow the logic of your statement about the children of Israel, etc., and I don't understand what you are saying. Please expand on it.

-Finrock

Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. Jacob, or Israel, practiced polygamy. If it was an abomination, we wouldn't be the children of Israel. Abraham practiced polygamy. We are under the Abrahamic Covenant.

Israel
See also Abraham—The seed of Abraham; Adoption; Jacob, Son of Isaac

The Lord gave the name Israel to Jacob, the son of Isaac and grandson of Abraham in the Old Testament (Gen. 32:28; 35:10). The name Israel can refer to Jacob himself, his descendants, or to the kingdom those descendants once possessed in Old Testament times (2 Sam. 1:24; 23:3). After Moses led the children of Israel out of Egyptian bondage (Ex. 3–14), they were ruled over by judges for over three hundred years. Beginning with King Saul, kings ruled over united Israel until the death of Solomon, when ten tribes revolted from Rehoboam to form a separate nation. After the kingdom of Israel was divided, the northern tribes, as the larger part, kept the name Israel, while the southern kingdom was called Judah. The land of Canaan is also called Israel today. In another sense, Israel means a true believer in Christ (Rom. 10:1; 11:7; Gal. 6:16; Eph. 2:12).

The twelve tribes of Israel
Abraham’s grandson Jacob, whose name was changed to Israel, had twelve sons. Their descendants have become known as the twelve tribes of Israel or the children of Israel. These are the twelve tribes: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, and Zebulun (the sons of Jacob and Leah); Dan and Naphtali (the sons of Jacob and Bilhah); Gad and Asher (the sons of Jacob and Zilpah); Joseph and Benjamin (the sons of Jacob and Rachel) (Gen. 29:32–30:24; 35:16–18).

Jacob gave each tribal leader a blessing before his death (Gen. 49:1–28). For further information, see the name of each son of Jacob.

Reuben, the firstborn son of Jacob’s first wife, Leah, lost his birthright blessing and double portion of inheritance because of immorality (Gen. 49:3–4). The birthright then went to Joseph, who was the firstborn son of Jacob’s second wife, Rachel (1 Chr. 5:1–2). Levi, whose tribe the Lord had chosen to serve as His priesthood ministers, did not receive an inheritance because of their special calling to minister among all the tribes. This allowed Joseph’s double portion to be shared by Joseph’s sons, Ephraim and Manasseh (1 Chr. 5:1; Jer. 31:9), who were counted as separate tribes of Israel (JST, Gen. 48:5–6 [Appendix]).

Members of the tribe of Judah were to be the rulers until the Messiah came (Gen. 49:10; JST, Gen. 50:24 [Appendix]). In the last days the tribe of Ephraim has the privilege of carrying the message of the Restoration of the gospel to the world and gathering scattered Israel (Deut. 33:13–17). The time will come when through the gospel of Jesus Christ, Ephraim will have a leadership role in uniting all the tribes of Israel (Isa. 11:12–13; D&C 133:26–34).

The scattering of Israel
The Lord scattered and afflicted the twelve tribes of Israel because of their unrighteousness and rebellion. However, the Lord also used this scattering of His chosen people among the nations of the world to bless those nations.

I will scatter you among the heathen, Lev. 26:33.

The Lord shall scatter thee among all people, Deut. 28:25, 37, 64.

I will deliver them to be removed to all the kingdoms of the earth, Jer. 29:18–19.

I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, Amos 9:9 (Zech. 10:9).

Jesus was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matt. 15:24.

I have other sheep which are not of this fold, John 10:16.

Israel shall be scattered upon all the face of the earth, 1 Ne. 22:3–8.

Jacob sets forth Zenos’s allegory of the tame and wild olive trees, Jacob 5–6.

The work of the Father will commence among the dispersed tribes, 3 Ne. 21:26.

The gathering of Israel
The house of Israel shall be gathered together in the last days before the coming of Christ (A of F 1:10). The Lord gathers His people Israel when they accept Him and keep His commandments.

He will lift up an ensign and they shall come, Isa. 5:26.

With great mercies will I gather thee, Isa. 54:7.

Israel and Judah are to be gathered to their lands, Jer. 30:3.

The Lord shall gather the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, Ezek. 28:25.

In the dispensation of the fulness of times he will gather in one all things in Christ, Eph. 1:10.

After Israel is scattered, they will be gathered, 1 Ne. 15:12–17.

The Lord will gather in all people of the house of Israel, 1 Ne. 19:16 (3 Ne. 16:5).

They shall be brought out of darkness and know that the Lord is their Savior, 1 Ne. 22:12.

God gathers and numbers his children, 1 Ne. 22:25.

The nations of the Gentiles shall carry Israel forth to the lands of their inheritance, 2 Ne. 10:8 (3 Ne. 16:4).

My people and my word shall be gathered as one, 2 Ne. 29:13–14.

The elders are called to gather the elect, D&C 29:7 (D&C 39:11).

I will gather mine elect, D&C 33:6.

Gather so that I may give you my law and that you may be endowed, D&C 38:31–33.

I will recover my people, who are of the house of Israel, D&C 39:11.

The Saints shall come forth, D&C 45:46.

Moses delivered the keys of the gathering, D&C 110:11.

Righteousness and truth will sweep the earth and gather out the Lord’s elect, Moses 7:62.

The gathering is compared to the gathering of eagles to a carcass, JS—M 1:27.

The ten lost tribes of Israel
The ten tribes of Israel made up the northern kingdom of Israel and were carried away captive into Assyria in 721 B.C. At that time they went to the “north countries” and became lost to the knowledge of others. In the last days they will return.

I will say to the north, Give up, Isa. 43:6.

These shall come from the north, Isa. 49:12 (1 Ne. 21:12).

Judah and Israel shall come together out of the land of the north, Jer. 3:18.

The Lord liveth who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, Jer. 16:14–16.

I will bring them from the north country, Jer. 31:8.

The Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel, 2 Ne. 29:12–13.

I go to show myself unto the lost tribes of Israel, 3 Ne. 17:4.

When the gospel is preached to the remnant of the house of Israel, the lost tribes will be gathered home to the land of their inheritance, 3 Ne. 21:26–29.

Moses committed the keys of the gathering of Israel to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery, D&C 110:11.

They who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord, D&C 133:26–32.

We believe in the literal gathering of Israel, A of F 1:10

I believe Joseph Smith.

I still don't get what you mean when you say "if [polygamy] was an abomination, we wouldn't be the children of Israel". Why is this true? The children of Israel can exist even if polygamy is an abomination.

-Finrock

You're not using good logic, so let's move closer to our time.

You say Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy. Ok, Brigham Young and the other leaders did. So, do you propose the Church apostacized at the death of Joseph Smith? Or is this something you can't or won't answer?

Wait...what? Can you please explain why it is true that the children of Israel cannot exist if polygamy is an abomination?

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Wait...what? Can you please explain why it is true that the children of Israel cannot exist if polygamy is an abomination?

I think what Arenera is saying is that the 12 tribes of Israel all came from 4 different wives of Jacob. Isaac, Jacob's father came from the wife of a polygamous Abraham. If Polygamy was such an abomination, then how could it be the very fountain the Abrahamic covenant, and each of the different 12 tribes?

Regards,

George Clay

[oneClimbs]

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Abraham and Jacob having both more than 1 wife.[/b]

Hagar was a concubine, fyi, there's no evidence he married her.

[oneClimbs]

But he did practice polygamy. What about the House of Israel? Surely Christ and God would not condone plural marriage if it was considered an abomination, yet we are the Children of Israel. Do you deny your tribe?

Solomon and David committed abominations yet we still have Proverbs and Psalms. Moses refused to trust God to speak to Pharaoh so God had Aaron be the spokesman. The children of Israel were being brought to Sinai to enter the presence of God but they sinned and had to live a lesser law. Joseph was responsible for losing the Book of Lehi and probably part of Mosiah yet another way was prepared. God works with mistakes. Not everything that happens had to happen that way, we make choices and there are consequences but that doesn't mean it was foreordained in every case.

[gclayjr]

5tev3,

Mistake or Abomination?

Regards,

George Clay

[gclayjr]

5tev4,

Hagar was a concubine, fyi, there's no evidence he married her.

I don't necessarily agree, but is concubine somehow less bad than polygamous wife? I think you are straining at gnats.

Regards,

George Clay

[Arenera]

5tev4,

Hagar was a concubine, fyi, there's no evidence he married her.

I don't necessarily agree, but is concubine somehow less bad than polygamous wife? I think you are straining at gnats.

Regards,

George Clay

So fornication or adultery is ok.

[oneClimbs]

5tev3,

Mistake or Abomination?

Regards,

George Clay

Personally, I side with the Book of Mormon that categorizes having many wives and concubines as an abomination. I don't believe that Jacob 2:30 is some kind of loophole either and I have written a detailed explanation of why. That said, could God have commanded Joseph? Sure, it's possible, I just don't believe he did. The fruits of men having many wives is bad fruit and Jacob tells his people this.

"Ye have broken the hearts of your tender wives, and lost the confidence of your children, because of your bad examples before them; and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up to God against you. And because of the strictness of the word of God, which cometh down against you, many hearts died, pierced with deep wounds." Jacob 2:35

Now what was the cause of these murdered hearts? Was it:

A: Their husbands were practicing plural marriage without authorization.
B: Their husbands were violating their covenants and twisting scriptures to justify them having sex with many women to fulfill their lustful desires.

If these women and children were so damaged and upset because their husbands/fathers were acting without authorization that's one thing, but doesn't it make so much more sense when you look at all the words of strong condemnation in the text that the problem was the act itself, the situation, the man marrying and having sex with many women? So these women and children would have been just fine if polygamy had been commanded by Jacob, they wouldn't have had any problems and been merrily enjoying their lives?

This raises another interesting question. God is ok with commanding his men to marry and have sex with many women while murdering their hearts:

A: Only when he needs to raise populations quickly.
B: Never.

Note that with option A in this scenario, that God has never, not once in recorded history ever commanded his people to take on many wives and concubines for the purpose of rapidly increasing the birthrate of his people. I'll back up that statement from the polygamy apologist and author of the three volume series Joseph Smith's Polygamy:

"Do we know that polygamy will ever be commanded again? In the 6000 years of religious history, the only adherents to be commanded were the Latter-day Saints between 1852 and 1890. Upon what basis does anyone assert that it will be commanded again?" Brian and Linda Hales, http://blog.fairmormon.org/wp-content/u ... fusion.pdf

The Book of Mormon condemns it and I don't believe that God commands men to do anything that murders the hearts of his daughters for any reason.

Have you ever studied the history of women in polygamy? Have you studied modern polygamous relationships? If you do, you'll find the exact situations described in Jacob 2, misery and sorrow. Polygamy is not marriage and can never be. D&C 42:22 states: "Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else." The woman is the only one who can keep this covenant in a plural marriage. The man may cleave to her along with anyone else he desires. See, this so-called married man never stops courting. Any woman he sees is a potential wife so he is free to flirt, date, and all the things a single man would do while his first through however many he has sit at home with the kids. D&C 132:61 states: "if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another..." See, it is based on if HE desires to espouse another.

That's marriage? No, that's an abomination to even suggest that such a thing is marriage and the Book of Mormon nails it in that respect.

It's not my place to judge or disrespect anyone who has had many wives or concubines. People who do abominable things have been instruments in God's hands and I'd go so far as to say that a majority of God's servants have done bad things at some point in their lives. God didn't push aside Psalms or Proverbs just because of what David and Solomon did.

My personal belief is that Joseph, Brigham, etc. were all instruments in God's hands. While I don't agree with polygamy, I acknowledge that I do not know all things and therefore I cannot judge them, nor do I look down on anyone who believes in polygamy and that it is part of God's plan. I must confess that I do not know for sure, I have prayed from time to time for answers but have been led back to the scriptures and especially the Book of Mormon, which is a new covenant. The teachings concerning having many wives and concubines are clear and I am very suspicious of the origins of D&C 132 and have been for a long time. It seems like it appeared on the scene to promote an agenda while discrediting Emma at the same time. I do think aspects of it are correct, after all the first half of the document teaches truths and they are all monogamous in nature.

I'm no authority on the matter, just an individual with an opinion. If you disagree with me, that's fine, you have the right to your own opinion and may be more correct than I am.

*** and, no, fornication is not Ok. I don't think Sarai's strategy was right at all, she made a mistake and so did Abram by listening to her instead of trusting God. That said, what they did in their situation was done with the intent to fulfill God's purposes. They had been left with a promise of seed without any fulfillment into their old age and beyond what they understood to be childbearing years. They could have given up, but they didn't, they tried to implement a solution. That doesn't mean it was right or had to happen that way. They could have just been 100% faithful and avoided the whole mess, but hey, we make mistakes and thank goodness for a God that is merciful and turns our water to wine.

[gclayjr]

5tev3,

I get your belief, and your arguments. I have heard this back and forth before. I guess, I am somewhat in the middle.To those who think that all who go to the Celestial kingdom must participate in plural marriage, I have often pointed out the mathematical problem that if plural marriage were to become common, there would not be enough women for all men to have multiple wives.

I also agree that most societies, including all societies today, who participate in polygamy, are brutal destructive societies that destroy both men and women. Women become property, or whores, and only men who are rich or powerful get wives, and those who are not get nothing, except maybe prostitutes. (By the way I lived in St. George in the early 70's and I used to meet young men who were driven out of Colorado City, because there were too many men to maintain the polygamous life.. and I'm sure we all know about those guys going out into other cities to entrap young ladies to join their community)

I do however believe that the scriptures are clear that there are certain limited circumstances (including Abraham, Jacob, etc) where plural marriage is not only acceptable, but is required. I understand that even in the early church, that plural marriage was practiced only by a few men. I believe that Plural marriage may be an accepted law in the Celestial kingdom, but the math indicates that even if it is the law, it will only be something to be practiced for a very limited number of celestial beings. I guess there will be a few more women than men who live righteously enough for a celestial glory... and they deserve all of the blessings, including eternal marriage and increase, even if not enough men live up to their covenants.

Regards,

George Clay

[Jesef]

I believe scriptures "justifying" polygamy are just flat out errors. Just like the ones where the (tribal) God "of Israel" commanded them to wipe out men, women, and children of other races/cultures (apparently He wasn't their Creator). Superstitious nonsense and polygamy seems akin to it. Shame on all the polygamists and their spiritual justifications for a barbaric and iniquitous (inequality/unequal) practice. Women are equal to men in every way that is significant, and especially in every eternal way - so no fuzzy one-to-many math or logistics required. The idea that their are more righteous women than men, who make it to celestial glory, thus requiring one man to many women, is preposterous. The God of the Universe and the economy of the Universe is smarter/more-intelligent than that. Just my opinion.

[oneClimbs]

I have often pointed out the mathematical problem that if plural marriage were to become common, there would not be enough women for all men to have multiple wives.

I've heard this argument as well and to me it sounds too close to Sarai's justification in that God had an appointed way to fulfill his promises that was outside of Abram and Sarai's ability to comprehend. They didn't see any other way so they assumed that involving another woman was the only way. Thinking that polygamy will be necessary in heaven because we don't know how else God could fulfill his promises appears to be too rash of a conclusion especially when the solution has never been revealed. That is my main concern with that theory.

I do however believe that the scriptures are clear that there are certain limited circumstances (including Abraham, Jacob, etc) where plural marriage is not only acceptable, but is required. I understand that even in the early church, that plural marriage was practiced only by a few men. I believe that Plural marriage may be an accepted law in the Celestial kingdom, but the math indicates that even if it is the law, it will only be something to be practiced for a very limited number of celestial beings. I guess there will be a few more women than men who live righteously enough for a celestial glory... and they deserve all of the blessings, including eternal marriage and increase, even if not enough men live up to their covenants.

It was not required with Abraham or Jacob. God had a plan, Abraham or Abram rather and Sarai chose their own way of fulfilling God's plan that were wrong. Jacob was tricked into marrying the wrong woman but there probably wasn't any law in their culture that could hold the tricksters accountable so he had to work within that paradigm. I don't think either of these cases was acceptable or required but God is merciful and worked with it.

Plural marriage was practiced by about 30% by the 1870s and that's a pretty large amount, over 1/4 of the church. So the vague "only a few men" isn't accurate at all. Again, the math, you can assume things, just as I can, but I caution against placing too much stock in polygamy being the defacto solution (remember Sarai).

Finally, and I don't just direct this at you because I hear it all the time from men and women all over in the church, but I take offense at this idea that women are more righteous than men. Look, I'm happily married and yes my wife is a better person than me in many ways, I had three little sisters growing up, and four daughters, and four sisters-in-law, so I am well-acquainted with the majesty of womankind. However, I've also known many men in my time, good, hard-working, humble, and profoundly spiritual men. I've seen horrible wicked women as well as despicable men. They're both out there on both sides and I don't like men getting thrown under the bus all the time, I think that idea is a product of the influence our media has on our cultural psyche. Men are dumb bumbling idiots and women are always right and wise.

There are at least four options for the afterlife.

1. God has perfectly predicted an exact number of compatible men and women to inhabit the Celestial kingdom. It will be a perfect split, everyone gets their soulmate.
2. Righteous women outnumber the men and polygamy is needed to that everyone can be in some kind of marriage. (Women will have to pick the families they want or it will be done baseball style, the men taking turns picking amongst themselves, or God just straight up making assignments.)
3. Righteous men outnumber the women. (Oops, we didn't see that one coming.)
4. Another plan that, like Abram and Sarai, we may laugh at the impossibility of but then see the truth of it when we are staring it in the face and then glory in it.

For instance, who is to say that marriages cannot happen between worlds? That those that didn't find marriage on another earth might find it on this one? What if we cannot even understand the solution because the principles it is built upon are not known to man. Abram and Sarai did not understand how a barren woman could become pregnant, but it happened. Maybe the answer is more simple than we think, we just can't picture it at the moment.

So in that respect, I'm going to hold off on speculation. I'm not going to assume I know something that has never been revealed and is not known. I think the safest bet is to learn from Abram and Sarai and trust, and wait, with confidence that a loving father is going provide a natural and beautiful solution.