Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

[underdog]

You should try to bring to light the scriptural teachings of KEYS and the mandates associated with them.

I have no interest in doing that. Those who engage in trying to establish that their argument is Right based on authority or keys are in the gall of bitterness and in the very act of exercising unrighteous Dominion which is of the devil. D&C 121 explains it very clearly.

The message is the authority. The truth is the authority. Flashing your credentials accomplishes nothing more than the Sanhedrin accomplished. Your typical thug cop does that. Whereas a good peace officer will serve you.

[Seek the Truth]

I have no interest in doing that. Those who engage in trying to establish that their argument is Right based on authority or keys are in the very act of exercising unrighteous Dominion which is of the devil. D&C 121 explains it very clearly.

This is dishonest. Jesus Christ and all the Prophets teach the value of keys. To reject the teaching of keys is to reject Jesus Christ and the Prophets. There is no way around it. Unrighteous dominion as you misunderstand it has no bearing on the critical role keys play in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

There literally is no salvation without a legal administrator in the flesh. These are the words of the man who penned D&C 121. The words of that section are not clear to you at all.

The message is the authority. The truth is the authority. Flashing your credentials accomplishes nothing more than the Sanhedrin accomplished.

The Sandhedrin had no keys. You are being deceived and passing on falsehood.

Your typical thug cop does that. Whereas a good peace officer will serve you.

With authority to do so.

[underdog]

I have no interest in doing that. Those who engage in trying to establish that their argument is Right based on authority or keys are in the very act of exercising unrighteous Dominion which is of the devil. D&C 121 explains it very clearly.

This is dishonest. Jesus Christ and all the Prophets teach the value of keys. To reject the teaching of keys is to reject Jesus Christ and the Prophets. There is no way around it. Unrighteous dominion as you misunderstand it has no bearing on the critical role keys play in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

There literally is no salvation without a legal administrator in the flesh. These are the words of the man who penned D&C 121. The words of that section are not clear to you at all.

The message is the authority. The truth is the authority. Flashing your credentials accomplishes nothing more than the Sanhedrin accomplished.

The Sandhedrin had no keys. You are being deceived and passing on falsehood.

Your typical thug cop does that. Whereas a good peace officer will serve you.

With authority to do so.

What part of no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood do you not understand?

It is not that having legitimate Authority to speak for the Lord is not important. The point is that you do not and should not ever ever ever ever ever seek to establish or maintain control or influence by asserting that you have keys or authority.

This really is basic stuff. It is lesson number one in the priesthood. Go back and read from verse 34 in D&C 121. There's a particular lesson you have not yet learned. Many are called and few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because they fail to learn a specific lesson. Go and read the lesson.

It should not be surprising that you do not understand this lesson. Why? Because it is the nature and disposition of almost all men to abuse other people. Read the verse that I'm referring to.

Denver said in 2013 August:

A true messenger will point you to Christ and seek to strengthen you in your independence from man. A false one will seek to make you dependent upon them, so they may exploit you for their own ends. I do not ask nor want your devotion. I want all of you to become my equal or, better still, my better. I want you strengthened in the Lord. We will never have Zion if we are not equal in all things, both spiritual and temporal. I am too weak a reed for you to rest your weight upon; as is every other man or woman. Trust only God. He alone has the strength to support us all."

The difference between the tone and spirit of the above quote and that of the men you revere as true prophets is like night and day. It exemplifies, it highlights, it brings into Crystal Clear Focus who is practicing unrighteous dominion and who is not. In other words it clearly proves at the very least who does not have the keys.

[Jesef]

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... une-1833/7

Revelation, 30 October 1831 [D&C 65]
A REVELATION ON PRAYER, GIVEN OCTOBER 30, 1831.
HEARKEN, and lo, a voice as of one sent down from on high, who is mighty and powerful, whose going forth is unto the ends of the earth; yea, whose voice is unto men, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths strait. The keys of the kingdom of God, are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is hewn from the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth; yea, a voice crying, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, prepare ye the supper of the Lamb, make ready for the bridegroom; pray unto the Lord; call upon his holy name; make known his wonderful works among the people; call upon the Lord; that his kingdom may go forth upon the earth; that the inhabitants thereof may receive it, and be prepared for the days to come, in the which the Son of man shall come down in heaven, clothed in the brightness of his glory, to meet the kingdom of God which is set up on the earth: Wherefore, may the kingdom of God go forth, that the kingdom of heaven may come, that thou O God may be glorified in heaven, so on earth, that thine enemies may be subdued; for thine is the honor, power and glory, forever and ever: Amen. [p. [2]]

Continuity.

[Seek the Truth]

What part of no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood do you not understand?

Nothing. I understand it totally. You are misrepresenting it with an intent to deceive.

It is not that having legitimate Authority to speak for the Lord is not important.

You have no idea. You have a gift for understatement.

The point is that you do not and should not ever ever ever ever ever seek to establish or maintain control or influence by asserting that you have keys or authority.

Cool story. What we're talking about it is what is required for salvation and exaltation. The answer is a legal administrator in the flesh. You have rejected this teaching, and have rejected the gospel and exaltation itself.

This really is basic stuff.

Boy are you right about that. It's a wonder Snufferites struggle with it so much.

It is lesson number one in the priesthood. Go back and read from verse 37 in D&C 121. There's a particular lesson you have not yet learned. Many are called and few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because they fail to learn a specific lesson. Go and read the lesson.

Bro, you have nothing to teach me about anything. You are operating in ignorance and deception. You are use deceptive techiniques to advance a false doctrine that leads souls from salvation and exaltation. I will not follow you down that road and I will save as many from it as I can.

It should not be surprising that you do not understand this lesson. Why? Because it is the nature and disposition of almost all men to abuse other people. Read the verse that I'm referring to.

You are full of great stories, the issue at hand however is the teachings of Christ and Joseph Smith with regard to the necessity of a legal administrator in the flesh. Your rejection of these teachings will ultimately deny you your exaltation. I call you to repent and repair your status with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the kingdom set up in the last days that will never be destroyed or left to other people (see my sig).

Denver said in 2013 August:

Not really interested in the words of a deceiver. You can point to Christ all you want but if you point away from his teachings in the end you are pointing away from Christ. You and Denver are pointing away from the teachings of Christ. Stop doing that.

[underdog]

What part of no power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood do you not understand?

Nothing. I understand it totally. You are misrepresenting it with an intent to deceive.

It is not that having legitimate Authority to speak for the Lord is not important.

You have no idea. You have a gift for understatement.

The point is that you do not and should not ever ever ever ever ever seek to establish or maintain control or influence by asserting that you have keys or authority.

Cool story. What we're talking about it is what is required for salvation and exaltation. The answer is a legal administrator in the flesh. You have rejected this teaching, and have rejected the gospel and exaltation itself.

This really is basic stuff.

Boy are you right about that. It's a wonder Snufferites struggle with it so much.

It is lesson number one in the priesthood. Go back and read from verse 37 in D&C 121. There's a particular lesson you have not yet learned. Many are called and few are chosen. And why are they not chosen? Because they fail to learn a specific lesson. Go and read the lesson.

Bro, you have nothing to teach me about anything. You are operating in ignorance and deception. You are use deceptive techiniques to advance a false doctrine that leads souls from salvation and exaltation. I will not follow you down that road and I will save as many from it as I can.

It should not be surprising that you do not understand this lesson. Why? Because it is the nature and disposition of almost all men to abuse other people. Read the verse that I'm referring to.

You are full of great stories, the issue at hand however is the teachings of Christ and Joseph Smith with regard to the necessity of a legal administrator in the flesh. Your rejection of these teachings will ultimately deny you your exaltation. I call you to repent and repair your status with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, the kingdom set up in the last days that will never be destroyed or left to other people (see my sig).

Denver said in 2013 August:

Not really interested in the words of a deceiver. You can point to Christ all you want but if you point away from his teachings in the end you are pointing away from Christ. You and Denver are pointing away from the teachings of Christ. Stop doing that.

The great "story" you say I tell is the words of Jesus Christ. DC 121 is indeed a great story. I don't think it's deceptive.

The LORD, not me, wants you and all of us to learn the one lesson. Your words above show you utterly reject the lesson because even now you continue, unchanged and undeterred, to argue that your side is right BECAUSE OF supposed keys.

For the 20th time, somebody with true keys will not make that argument. The DEVIL uses that argument. It is of the devil.

I don't think YOU are of the devil. But your argument is.

I think it's futile to engage further with you. You refuse to see this basic point. For an analysis of why you fail to understand, see DC 121:37.

You keep circling back to false assertions without submitting to the Lord's teachings in DC.

If you will agree to concede when wrong (as I will and do), then I can continue. Otherwise it's pointless. I can logically and scripturally lead you to a correct understanding. But you must concede when your statements oppose the Lord's teachings.

I don't think you can accept this challenge so let's agree to disagree. Peace unto you.

[Seek the Truth]

I'm not arguing. I'm teaching a true doctrine that saves. If you don't find a legal administrator in the flesh you cannot obtain exaltation. You will have damned yourself. Whether or not that administrator uses unrighteous dominion is another subject. You are making a conflationary argument, on purpose or not I cannot tell.

There is nothing to disagree about. I have a doctrine that saves and you do not, and it's not my doctrine but a fundamental stone of the restoration.

My argument is not right because I have keys. My argument is right because it is revealed in the scriptures and through Joseph Smith. Denver has taught you a false doctrine. Teaching the true doctrine of keys is no different than teaching the true doctrine of repentance. No unrighteous dominion is involved, it's just revealed truth.

[Jesef]

Joseph Smith Letter to John Wentworth
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... transcript

At the request of Mr. John Wentworth, Editor, and Proprietor of the “Chicago Democrat,” I have written the following sketch of the rise, progress, persecution, and faith of the Latter-Day Saints, of which I have the honor, under God, of being the founder.
...
Persecution has not stopped the progress of truth, but has only added fuel to the flame, it has spread with increasing rapidity, proud of the cause which they have espoused and conscious of their innocence and of the truth of their system amidst calumny and reproach have the elders of this church gone forth, and planted the gospel in almost every state in the Union; it has penetrated our cities, it has spread over our villages, and has caused thousands of our intelligent, noble, and patriotic citizens to obey its divine mandates, and be governed by its sacred truths. It has also spread into England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales: in the year of 1839 where a few of our missionaries were sent over five thousand joined the standard of truth, there are numbers now joining in every land.

Our missionaries are going forth to different nations, and in Germany, Palestine, New Holland, the East Indies, and other places, the standard of truth has been erected: no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing, persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done.

Continuity.

[Jesef]

D&C 109 Kirtland Temple Dedicatory Prayer (Revelation given to Joseph Smith)
http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper- ... 6-dc-109/2

Remember, O, Lord, the presidents, even all the presidents of thy church, that thy right hand may exalt them with all their families, and their immediate connexions, that their names may be perpetuated and had in everlasting remembrance from generation to generation.
Remember all thy church, O Lord, with all their families, and all their immediate connexions, with all their sick and afflicted ones, with all the poor and meek of the earth, that the kingdom which thou hast set up without hands, may become a great mountain and fill the whole earth, that thy church may come forth out of the wilderness of darkness, and shine forth fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners, and be addorned as a bride for that day when thou shalt unveil the heavens, and cause the mountains to flow down at thy presence, and the valleys to be exalted, the rough places made smooth, that thy glory may fill the earth.
That when the trump shall sound for the dead, we shall be caught up in the cloud to meet thee, that we may ever be with the Lord, that our garments may be pure, that we may be clothed upon with robes of righteousness, with palms in our hands, and crowns of glory upon our heads, and reap eternal joy for all our sufferings. O Lord, God Almighty. hear us in these our petitions, and answer us from heaven, thy holy habitation, where thou sittest enthroned, with glory, honor, power, majesty, might, dominion, truth, justice, judgement, mercy and an infinity of fulness, from everlasting to everlasting.

Continuity.

[Jesef]

Notice how so many of these make reference to Daniel's prophecy:

Daniel 2
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

12 May 1844 (Sunday Morning). Temple Stand. Thomas Bullock Report
I shall read the 24th. ch of Matthew and give it a litteral rendering and reading, and when it is rightly understood it will be edifying (he then read & translated it from the German) I thought the very oddity of its rendering would be edifying any how—"And it will preached be; the Gospel of the Kingdom in the whole world, to a witness over all people, and then will the end come." I will now read it in German—(which he did, and many Germans who were present said he translated it correct) the Savior said, when those tribulations should take place, it should be committed to a man, who should be a witness over the whole world, the keys of knowledge, power, and revelations, should be revealed to a witness who should hold the testimony to the world; it has always been my province to dig up hidden mysteries, new things, for my hearers—just at the time when some men think that I have no right to the keys of the Priesthood just at that time, I have the greatest right—the Germans are an exalted people. the old German translators are the most correct; most honest of any of the translators, and therefore I get testimony to bear me out in the revelations that I have preached for the last 14 years—the old German, Latin, Greek and Hebrew translations all say it is true, they cannot be impeached, and therefore I am in good company—all the testimony is, that the Lord in the last days would commit the keys of the Priesthood to a witness over all people—has the Gospel of the Kingdom commenced in the last days? and will God take it from the man, until he takes him, himself? I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ—John the Revelator saw an angel flying thro' the midst of heaven, having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, &c. the Scripture is ready to be fulfilled when great wars, famines, pestilence, great distress, judgements,  &c are ready to be poured out on the Inhabitants of the Earth—John saw the angel having the holy Priesthood who should preach the everlasting gospel to all nations,—God had an angel, a special messenger, ordained, & prepared for that purpose in the last days—Woe! Woe! be to that man, or set of men, who lift up their hands against God and his Witness in these last days. —for they shall deceive almost the very chosen ones—my apostate enemies say that I have been a true prophet—& I had rather be a fallen true prophet, than a false prophet; when a man goes about prophesying and commands men to obey his teachings, he must be either a true or false prophet; false prophets always arise to oppose the true prophets, and they will prophesy so very near the truth that they will deceive almost the very chosen ones—the doctrine of eternal judgments belong to the 1st. principles of the Gospel in the last days —in relation to the Kingdom of God —the devil always sets up his Kingdom at the very same time in opposition to God,—every man who has a calling to mininster to the Inhabitants of the world, was ordained to that very purpose in the grand Council of Heaven before this world was —I suppose that I was ordained to this very office in that grand Council —it is the testimony that I want, that I am God's servant, and this people his people—the Ancient Prophets declared in the last days the God of Heaven shall set up a Kingdom which should never be destroyed, nor, left to other People; & the very time that was calculated on; this people was struggling to bring it out —he that arms himself with Gun, sword, or Pistol except in the defense of truth, will some time be sorry for it —I never carry any thing weapon with me bigger than my Pen Knife—when I was dragged before the Cannon and muskets in Missouri, I was unarmed. God will always protect me until my mission is fulfilled. I calculate to be one of the Instruments of setting up the Kingdom of Daniel, by the word of the Lord, and I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world —I once offered my life to the Missouri Mob as a sacrifice for my people—and here I am—it will not be by Sword or Gun that this Kingdom will roll on—the power of truth is such that—all nations will be under the necessity of obeying the Gospel the prediction is that army will be against army —it may be that the Saints will have to beat their Ploughes into Swords. It will not do for men to sit down and see their women & children destroyed patiently...

Continuity. And Joseph declared he had the Gospel and the keys and the Priesthood. So I guess he was an unrighteous dominator and false prophet according to your definition.

[Mark]

I'm not arguing. I'm teaching a true doctrine that saves. If you don't find a legal administrator in the flesh you cannot obtain exaltation. You will have damned yourself. Whether or not that administrator uses unrighteous dominion is another subject. You are making a conflationary argument, on purpose or not I cannot tell.

There is nothing to disagree about. I have a doctrine that saves and you do not, and it's not my doctrine but a fundamental stone of the restoration.

My argument is not right because I have keys. My argument is right because it is revealed in the scriptures and through Joseph Smith. Denver has taught you a false doctrine. Teaching the true doctrine of keys is no different than teaching the true doctrine of repentance. No unrighteous dominion is involved, it's just revealed truth.

Don't waste your time. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

[Arenera]

I'm not arguing. I'm teaching a true doctrine that saves. If you don't find a legal administrator in the flesh you cannot obtain exaltation. You will have damned yourself. Whether or not that administrator uses unrighteous dominion is another subject. You are making a conflationary argument, on purpose or not I cannot tell.

There is nothing to disagree about. I have a doctrine that saves and you do not, and it's not my doctrine but a fundamental stone of the restoration.

My argument is not right because I have keys. My argument is right because it is revealed in the scriptures and through Joseph Smith. Denver has taught you a false doctrine. Teaching the true doctrine of keys is no different than teaching the true doctrine of repentance. No unrighteous dominion is involved, it's just revealed truth.

Don't waste your time. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still.

Nice rhyme!

[underdog]

I have no interest in doing that. Those who engage in trying to establish that their argument is Right based on authority or keys are in the very act of exercising unrighteous Dominion which is of the devil. D&C 121 explains it very clearly.

This is dishonest. Jesus Christ and all the Prophets teach the value of keys. To reject the teaching of keys is to reject Jesus Christ and the Prophets. There is no way around it. Unrighteous dominion as you misunderstand it has no bearing on the critical role keys play in the gospel of Jesus Christ.

There literally is no salvation without a legal administrator in the flesh. These are the words of the man who penned D&C 121. The words of that section are not clear to you at all.

The message is the authority. The truth is the authority. Flashing your credentials accomplishes nothing more than the Sanhedrin accomplished.

The Sandhedrin had no keys. You are being deceived and passing on falsehood.

Your typical thug cop does that. Whereas a good peace officer will serve you.

With authority to do so.

Seek the Truth,

Let's review. Your argument is "if you don't find a legal administrator in the flesh you cannot obtain exaltation." EVERYTHING rests on having this mortal (in the flesh) "legal administrator" in your view. Is this correct?

Did Joseph Smith go to or through a mortal "legal administrator"?

The answer is "no."

So this means your argument must be something other than what you are saying. If you find one exception, and Joseph Smith is an exception, then your argument must then be invalid.

What is your argument then?

Underdog

[shadow]

DC 121 is indeed a great story. I don't think it's deceptive.

It is a great story, a story of warning and consequence. You can see yourself and Snuffer described below-


16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.

24 Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all;

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.


I'm sure you have issues seeing yourself in there since you can't even admit that Snuffer skipped out on his own court, even after he proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose. Then he claims the brethren lost the keys (there's that word) and he wrested them because they didn't reinstate his membership. Of course, Joseph Smith said those who miss their own courts deserve their excommunication. This is easy and basic stuff to grasp but you and the other remnant members cannot see whats right in front of your eyes. "Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth, that they become blinded" Looks like he's succeeded with Snuffer followers. It's right in front of your face and you still can't see it. Blindness.

[underdog]

I'm not arguing. I'm teaching a true doctrine that saves. If you don't find a legal administrator in the flesh you cannot obtain exaltation. You will have damned yourself. Whether or not that administrator uses unrighteous dominion is another subject. You are making a conflationary argument, on purpose or not I cannot tell.

There is nothing to disagree about. I have a doctrine that saves and you do not, and it's not my doctrine but a fundamental stone of the restoration.

My argument is not right because I have keys. My argument is right because it is revealed in the scriptures and through Joseph Smith. Denver has taught you a false doctrine. Teaching the true doctrine of keys is no different than teaching the true doctrine of repentance. No unrighteous dominion is involved, it's just revealed truth.

By claiming the question of whether or not a legal administrator practices UD is "another subject", you are trying to separate the two issues (a legal administrator and the effects of unrighteous dominion upon that legal administrator), but you cannot do that. By doing this, YOU are the one teaching a false doctrine.

In what could not be plainer words, the Lord says (in DC 121):

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Your whole argument is the rant, "We have the keys!!!!!" History shows that the rant turns to hate and rage, then to censorship, then persecution, and then murder, first by excommunicating "heretics" and denying them exaltation (in your mind), and then by bloodshed. History proves this is the path you are on. You're already exhibiting hate and rage, censorship (by endorsing Denver being cast out), persecution (as you do to me and as you endorse the persecution of Denver), and the first kind of murder (which you endorse as you endorse his excommunication). Are those serious sins you engage in? Let the reader judge.

Your whole argument is "the keys were conferred upon" us.

But Jesus says, "it is true...they MAY be conferred upon up...BUT when we __________".

Read and study the words after BUT.

By attempting to separate the effects of unrighteous dominion from keys holders, you attempt to cover up sins. Not to mention you teach corrupt and perverted and apostate "doctrine." You can't separate them. For once unrighteous dominion is practiced, "Amen to the priesthood or authority of that man!" Those are the Lord's words, not mine. Thus many are called, but few are chosen. You do what the 1984 folks who forced Elder Poelman did. You attempt to UNITE the Church (the Brethren) with the Lord. They are NOT one in the same. To do so violates the 2nd of the 10 Commandments (as I've explained before).

[underdog]

DC 121 is indeed a great story. I don't think it's deceptive.

It is a great story, a story of warning and consequence. You can see yourself and Snuffer described below-


16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.

24 Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all;

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.


I'm sure you have issues seeing yourself in there since you can't even admit that Snuffer skipped out on his own court, even after he proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose. Then he claims the brethren lost the keys (there's that word) and he wrested them because they didn't reinstate his membership. Of course, Joseph Smith said those who miss their own courts deserve their excommunication. This is easy and basic stuff to grasp but you and the other remnant members cannot see whats right in front of your eyes. "Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth, that they become blinded" Looks like he's succeeded with Snuffer followers. It's right in front of your face and you still can't see it. Blindness.

Those are great verses. The Lord's "anointed" would apply to Joseph Smith for sure, and those of whom God has anointed by his "own voice." Denver would qualify there. No LDS leaders since Joseph claim to be chosen by God's "own voice." In other words, you should see yourself in these verses.

At least there are two sides, and there is a question to consider! I love you either way. Thanks for your love and concern in return.

I've already destroyed your attempt to discredit Denver, regarding his court. Just like the MSM, you stick to your talking points despite the evidence. For first time readers, here are the facts:

• Denver's stake president personally invited Denver's wife. And then invited Denver to share who else he'd like to attend.

• Denver responded he'd like his kids to attend, and that many of them would drive in from out of state.

• The stake president never protested or disagreed in the weeks leading up to the court.

• On the day of court, Denver showed up for his court with wife and kids.

• The SP then surprised everyone with his announcement that his family couldn't attend.

• They talked for an hour and the SP held firm to his decision, despite acknowledging that he had indeed received word from Denver about who would be attending in advance.

• The SP then acknowledged that Denver was a "Temple recommend worthy" member.

• The SP also acknowledged that it was "for a book" that the court was being held.

• The SP acknowledged that he had stood down from prosecuting a court on the direction of a General Authority. Denver then stated that was proof that it wasn't the SP's decision, but that he was being directed.

So Shadow, stop bearing false witness. You simply lie when you say, Denver "proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose." You continue to swear falsely about this, and it's not even a huge thing IMHO. I mean, so what if he missed it? The decision to ex him was already made! Honestly, what would be the point of showing up to give credence to the false court? But he DID show up, with his family, as he reported in advance he would do. And yet you attempt to ascribe some great sin to Denver by saying "he has sinned when he hasn't sinned" (see verse below that you quoted). The words of the scriptures you ignorantly quote seem to apply perfectly in this case to you:

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them...

[Finrock]

I'm not arguing. I'm teaching a true doctrine that saves. If you don't find a legal administrator in the flesh you cannot obtain exaltation. You will have damned yourself. Whether or not that administrator uses unrighteous dominion is another subject. You are making a conflationary argument, on purpose or not I cannot tell.

There is nothing to disagree about. I have a doctrine that saves and you do not, and it's not my doctrine but a fundamental stone of the restoration.

My argument is not right because I have keys. My argument is right because it is revealed in the scriptures and through Joseph Smith. Denver has taught you a false doctrine. Teaching the true doctrine of keys is no different than teaching the true doctrine of repentance. No unrighteous dominion is involved, it's just revealed truth.

By claiming the question of whether or not a legal administrator practices UD is "another subject", you are trying to separate the two issues (a legal administrator and the effects of unrighteous dominion upon that legal administrator), but you cannot do that. By doing this, YOU are the one teaching a false doctrine.

In what could not be plainer words, the Lord says (in DC 121):

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Your whole argument is the rant, "We have the keys!!!!!" History shows that the rant turns to hate and rage, then to censorship, then persecution, and then murder, first by excommunicating "heretics" and denying them exaltation (in your mind), and then by bloodshed. History proves this is the path you are on. You're already exhibiting hate and rage, censorship (by endorsing Denver being cast out), persecution (as you do to me and as you endorse the persecution of Denver), and the first kind of murder (which you endorse as you endorse his excommunication). Are those serious sins you engage in? Let the reader judge.

Your whole argument is "the keys were conferred upon" us.

But Jesus says, "it is true...they MAY be conferred upon up...BUT when we __________".

Read and study the words after BUT.

By attempting to separate the effects of unrighteous dominion from keys holders, you attempt to cover up sins. Not to mention you teach corrupt and perverted and apostate "doctrine." You can't separate them. For once unrighteous dominion is practiced, "Amen to the priesthood or authority of that man!" Those are the Lord's words, not mine. Thus many are called, but few are chosen. You do what the 1984 folks who forced Elder Poelman did. You attempt to UNITE the Church (the Brethren) with the Lord. They are NOT one in the same. To do so violates the 2nd of the 10 Commandments (as I've explained before).

I get what you're saying and I agree with this part as far as that goes.

The doctrine that we can't exercise priesthood of God unrighteously is sound.

But who judges when a person has lost the priesthood? Also, do you recognize that you can have priesthood keys without authority?

-Finrock

[shadow]

DC 121 is indeed a great story. I don't think it's deceptive.

It is a great story, a story of warning and consequence. You can see yourself and Snuffer described below-


16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.

24 Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all;

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.


I'm sure you have issues seeing yourself in there since you can't even admit that Snuffer skipped out on his own court, even after he proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose. Then he claims the brethren lost the keys (there's that word) and he wrested them because they didn't reinstate his membership. Of course, Joseph Smith said those who miss their own courts deserve their excommunication. This is easy and basic stuff to grasp but you and the other remnant members cannot see whats right in front of your eyes. "Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth, that they become blinded" Looks like he's succeeded with Snuffer followers. It's right in front of your face and you still can't see it. Blindness.

Those are great verses. The Lord's "anointed" would apply to Joseph Smith for sure, and those of whom God has anointed by his "own voice." Denver would qualify there. No LDS leaders since Joseph claim to be chosen by God's "own voice." In other words, you should see yourself in these verses.

At least there are two sides, and there is a question to consider! I love you either way. Thanks for your love and concern in return.

I've already destroyed your attempt to discredit Denver, regarding his court. Just like the MSM, you stick to your talking points despite the evidence. For first time readers, here are the facts:

• Denver's stake president personally invited Denver's wife. And then invited Denver to share who else he'd like to attend.

• Denver responded he'd like his kids to attend, and that many of them would drive in from out of state.

• The stake president never protested or disagreed in the weeks leading up to the court.

• On the day of court, Denver showed up for his court with wife and kids.

• The SP then surprised everyone with his announcement that his family couldn't attend.

• They talked for an hour and the SP held firm to his decision, despite acknowledging that he had indeed received word from Denver about who would be attending in advance.

• The SP then acknowledged that Denver was a "Temple recommend worthy" member.

• The SP also acknowledged that it was "for a book" that the court was being held.

• The SP acknowledged that he had stood down from prosecuting a court on the direction of a General Authority. Denver then stated that was proof that it wasn't the SP's decision, but that he was being directed.

So Shadow, stop bearing false witness. You simply lie when you say, Denver "proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose." You continue to swear falsely about this, and it's not even a huge thing IMHO. I mean, so what if he missed it? The decision to ex him was already made! Honestly, what would be the point of showing up to give credence to the false court? But he DID show up, with his family, as he reported in advance he would do. And yet you attempt to ascribe some great sin to Denver by saying "he has sinned when he hasn't sinned" (see verse below that you quoted). The words of the scriptures you ignorantly quote seem to apply perfectly in this case to you:

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them...

The court was for Denver, not his family. Denver refused to attend the court. He was there at the place, but refused to enter. His family, including his mouthy daughter (Snuffer admits this), was just fluff. They were not on trial. Their presence was not required in the court. Those are the facts. I'm surprised you're arguing such a simple thing. Denver doesn't make the rules about the court. Those on trial do not make the rules. Their demands do not have to be met. The requirement for those on trial is to attend the court. That's it. Denver was there. His SP was there. The high council was there. Denver squandered and wasted the evening and lawyer talks how it wasn't his fault. You've been suckered by a fool but you're so vested that you can't see it for what it is. And yes, Denver sinned and continues in it.

[underdog]

I'm not arguing. I'm teaching a true doctrine that saves. If you don't find a legal administrator in the flesh you cannot obtain exaltation. You will have damned yourself. Whether or not that administrator uses unrighteous dominion is another subject. You are making a conflationary argument, on purpose or not I cannot tell.

There is nothing to disagree about. I have a doctrine that saves and you do not, and it's not my doctrine but a fundamental stone of the restoration.

My argument is not right because I have keys. My argument is right because it is revealed in the scriptures and through Joseph Smith. Denver has taught you a false doctrine. Teaching the true doctrine of keys is no different than teaching the true doctrine of repentance. No unrighteous dominion is involved, it's just revealed truth.

By claiming the question of whether or not a legal administrator practices UD is "another subject", you are trying to separate the two issues (a legal administrator and the effects of unrighteous dominion upon that legal administrator), but you cannot do that. By doing this, YOU are the one teaching a false doctrine.

In what could not be plainer words, the Lord says (in DC 121):

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

Your whole argument is the rant, "We have the keys!!!!!" History shows that the rant turns to hate and rage, then to censorship, then persecution, and then murder, first by excommunicating "heretics" and denying them exaltation (in your mind), and then by bloodshed. History proves this is the path you are on. You're already exhibiting hate and rage, censorship (by endorsing Denver being cast out), persecution (as you do to me and as you endorse the persecution of Denver), and the first kind of murder (which you endorse as you endorse his excommunication). Are those serious sins you engage in? Let the reader judge.

Your whole argument is "the keys were conferred upon" us.

But Jesus says, "it is true...they MAY be conferred upon up...BUT when we __________".

Read and study the words after BUT.

By attempting to separate the effects of unrighteous dominion from keys holders, you attempt to cover up sins. Not to mention you teach corrupt and perverted and apostate "doctrine." You can't separate them. For once unrighteous dominion is practiced, "Amen to the priesthood or authority of that man!" Those are the Lord's words, not mine. Thus many are called, but few are chosen. You do what the 1984 folks who forced Elder Poelman did. You attempt to UNITE the Church (the Brethren) with the Lord. They are NOT one in the same. To do so violates the 2nd of the 10 Commandments (as I've explained before).

I get what you're saying and I agree with this part as far as that goes.

The doctrine that we can't exercise priesthood of God unrighteously is sound.

But who judges when a person has lost the priesthood? Also, do you recognize that you can have priesthood keys without authority?

-Finrock

Finrock,

Your response is what separates you from most. You humbly display an allegiance to truth and reason even when it may not be convenient. I hope to be the same way.

Who judges, you ask? Doesn't Jesus ask us all to be on alert for those who "look like" sheep, but aren't?

To your second question (a very clever question if I may say so myself), we'd have to define "priesthood keys" and "authority" first of all.

Sounds like you're of the belief they are different. And they probably are.

But the real question remains: would acting under Satan's influence (exercising unrighteous dominion) nullify any keys given? In other words, could a servant of Satan not only claim to have the keys, but actually possess them in fact, while serving Satan wittingly or unwittingly? Stated another way, could a man admit to have lost the priesthood, but still claim he has keys?

I don't see how that is possible. It's contrary to reason, in my view.

[underdog]

DC 121 is indeed a great story. I don't think it's deceptive.

It is a great story, a story of warning and consequence. You can see yourself and Snuffer described below-


16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.

24 Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all;

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.


I'm sure you have issues seeing yourself in there since you can't even admit that Snuffer skipped out on his own court, even after he proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose. Then he claims the brethren lost the keys (there's that word) and he wrested them because they didn't reinstate his membership. Of course, Joseph Smith said those who miss their own courts deserve their excommunication. This is easy and basic stuff to grasp but you and the other remnant members cannot see whats right in front of your eyes. "Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth, that they become blinded" Looks like he's succeeded with Snuffer followers. It's right in front of your face and you still can't see it. Blindness.

Those are great verses. The Lord's "anointed" would apply to Joseph Smith for sure, and those of whom God has anointed by his "own voice." Denver would qualify there. No LDS leaders since Joseph claim to be chosen by God's "own voice." In other words, you should see yourself in these verses.

At least there are two sides, and there is a question to consider! I love you either way. Thanks for your love and concern in return.

I've already destroyed your attempt to discredit Denver, regarding his court. Just like the MSM, you stick to your talking points despite the evidence. For first time readers, here are the facts:

• Denver's stake president personally invited Denver's wife. And then invited Denver to share who else he'd like to attend.

• Denver responded he'd like his kids to attend, and that many of them would drive in from out of state.

• The stake president never protested or disagreed in the weeks leading up to the court.

• On the day of court, Denver showed up for his court with wife and kids.

• The SP then surprised everyone with his announcement that his family couldn't attend.

• They talked for an hour and the SP held firm to his decision, despite acknowledging that he had indeed received word from Denver about who would be attending in advance.

• The SP then acknowledged that Denver was a "Temple recommend worthy" member.

• The SP also acknowledged that it was "for a book" that the court was being held.

• The SP acknowledged that he had stood down from prosecuting a court on the direction of a General Authority. Denver then stated that was proof that it wasn't the SP's decision, but that he was being directed.

So Shadow, stop bearing false witness. You simply lie when you say, Denver "proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose." You continue to swear falsely about this, and it's not even a huge thing IMHO. I mean, so what if he missed it? The decision to ex him was already made! Honestly, what would be the point of showing up to give credence to the false court? But he DID show up, with his family, as he reported in advance he would do. And yet you attempt to ascribe some great sin to Denver by saying "he has sinned when he hasn't sinned" (see verse below that you quoted). The words of the scriptures you ignorantly quote seem to apply perfectly in this case to you:

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them...

The court was for Denver, not his family. Denver refused to attend the court. He was there at the place, but refused to enter. His family, including his mouthy daughter (Snuffer admits this), was just fluff. They were not on trial. Their presence was not required in the court. Those are the facts. I'm surprised you're arguing such a simple thing. Denver doesn't make the rules about the court. Those on trial do not make the rules. Their demands do not have to be met. The requirement for those on trial is to attend the court. That's it. Denver was there. His SP was there. The high council was there. Denver squandered and wasted the evening and lawyer talks how it wasn't his fault. You've been suckered by a fool but you're so vested that you can't see it for what it is. And yes, Denver sinned and continues in it.

Shadow, yes, the court was for Denver (as only he was indicted), but if the court proceedings (time and place) were just for Denver, why did the SP invite Denver's wife to attend and ask Denver who else he'd like to bring?

The better question is, why are you trying so hard to dig a pit for Denver? Why not just let this go? You're spending so much negative energy on a complete non issue. Who really cares, at the end of the day, if he showed up at the mockery of a court anyway? The verdict had already been made. It was signed, sealed, and delivered.

And to Denver, it wasn't a waste of time. Time with the SP wasn't squandered at all. Denver's objective was to ensure that his family knew he wasn't being accused of anything contrary to Jesus Christ or any moral sin, as is frequently the case for these courts. Mission accomplished in spades! And it was also verified that he was indicted for writing a book. No, time was not wasted in the least bit.

Can we agree to drop this non issue?

[AI2.0]

My responses in blue;

DC 121 is indeed a great story. I don't think it's deceptive.

It is a great story, a story of warning and consequence. You can see yourself and Snuffer described below-


16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.

24 Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all;

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.


I'm sure you have issues seeing yourself in there since you can't even admit that Snuffer skipped out on his own court, even after he proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose. Then he claims the brethren lost the keys (there's that word) and he wrested them because they didn't reinstate his membership. Of course, Joseph Smith said those who miss their own courts deserve their excommunication. This is easy and basic stuff to grasp but you and the other remnant members cannot see whats right in front of your eyes. "Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth, that they become blinded" Looks like he's succeeded with Snuffer followers. It's right in front of your face and you still can't see it. Blindness.

Those are great verses. The Lord's "anointed" would apply to Joseph Smith for sure, and those of whom God has anointed by his "own voice." Denver would qualify there. No LDS leaders since Joseph claim to be chosen by God's "own voice." In other words, you should see yourself in these verses.

At least there are two sides, and there is a question to consider! I love you either way. Thanks for your love and concern in return.

I've already destroyed your attempt to discredit Denver, regarding his court. Just like the MSM, you stick to your talking points despite the evidence. For first time readers, here are the facts:

• Denver's stake president personally invited Denver's wife. And then invited Denver to share who else he'd like to attend.

This is true, his wife was invited. 'who else he'd like to attend' did not mean his children, it meant witnesses to speak on his behalf.
Denver's a lawyer, he understood this.

• Denver responded he'd like his kids to attend, and that many of them would drive in from out of state.

This request was denied. That's why his children were not allowed to attend. He was told he could bring witnessess-that doesn't mean bring a bunch of family members, that means 'witnesses' to defend his position that he was not in apostasy.

• The stake president never protested or disagreed in the weeks leading up to the court.

Denver is playing innocent here,
he knows who was invited and who was not. I've also seen that this is a ploy by many Snufferites, to try to bring their whole families with them to the court, when they know it is not appropriate. It's a manipulation by these people to try to gain sympathy, to put pressure on the court to be fearful of giving the verdict that is required (the pressure that this could cause the kids to leave the church), it's dishonest on their part and frankly exploitative and insensitive to use their children in this manner.

• On the day of court, Denver showed up for his court with wife and kids.

When he knew that his children were not to attend the court.

• The SP then surprised everyone with his announcement that his family couldn't attend.

Denver knew they were not invited.
He's not stupid, he knew that the letter invited his wife and any witnesses he wanted to bring, which did not mean his children.

• They talked for an hour and the SP held firm to his decision, despite acknowledging that he had indeed received word from Denver about who would be attending in advance.

• The SP then acknowledged that Denver was a "Temple recommend worthy" member.

The stake pres. was acknowledging that Denver was not being accused of moral infractions, which would have precluded taking his temple recommend before his court. I assume this also means that the SP had not pulled his recommend up to the point of his court, which was the right thing to do. He was accused of apostasy.

• The SP also acknowledged that it was "for a book" that the court was being held.

It was for the teachings in the Book which Snuffer had been told to pull, which he refused to do. The book is proof that Denver Snuffer no longer believed that the church was true, and he was using his influence to encourage others to believe the same. His book was full of revisionist/twisting of information as well.

• The SP acknowledged that he had stood down from prosecuting a court on the direction of a General Authority. Denver then stated that was proof that it wasn't the SP's decision, but that he was being directed.

The SP should have held a court on Snuffer when it was first brought to his attention, instead, he chose to give Snuffer some time. It was to no avail and ever since, Snuffer has been using his compassion to criticize and challenge the SP's actions. Frankly, I don't know why the Stake Prs. didn't know about Snuffer's activities, maybe he was busy and hadn't read his book or had ignored concerns as they were brought to him--they are human. It's too bad he needed to be informed of Snuffer's activities by General authorities. It shouldn't have had to take them contacting him to get something done about Snuffer's obvious apostate activities.

So Shadow, stop bearing false witness. You simply lie when you say, Denver "proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose."He's not lying, Denver Snuffer CHOSE to sit outside and not attend his disciplinary hearing. Can you not admit facts when they are presented to you?
Do you always have to fight against anything that doesn't fit your paradigm of poor Denver the martyr??? You continue to swear falsely about this, and it's not even a huge thing IMHO. I mean, so what if he missed it? The decision to ex him was already made! Honestly, what would be the point of showing up to give credence to the false court? But he DID show up, with his family, as he reported in advance he would do. And yet you attempt to ascribe some great sin to Denver by saying "he has sinned when he hasn't sinned" (see verse below that you quoted). The words of the scriptures you ignorantly quote seem to apply perfectly in this case to you:

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them...

Did you read that scripture carefully before you posted it, because they certainly apply to you. You are as guilty of crying 'transgression' and 'swearing falsely' against the Lord's servants as anyone. The way you've spoken against LDS prophets and leaders is an example of this.

[Arenera]

About those keys, they are held in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Sorry udog and DS don't have them.

My dear brethren of the priesthood: I greet you in love and in fellowship and in thanksgiving for the many blessings which the Lord has showered upon us.

Now I shall say a few words to you about the priesthood and those keys which the Lord has conferred upon us in this final gospel dispensation.

We hold the holy Melchizedek Priesthood, which is the power and authority of God delegated to man on earth to act in all things for the salvation of men.

We also hold the keys of the kingdom of God on earth, which kingdom is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

These keys are the right of presidency; they are the power and authority to govern and direct all of the Lord’s affairs on earth. Those who hold them have power to govern and control the manner in which all others may serve in the priesthood. All of us may hold the priesthood, but we can only use it as authorized and directed so to do by those who hold the keys.

This priesthood and these keys were conferred upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery by Peter, James, and John, and by Moses and Elijah and others of the ancient prophets. They have been given to each man who has been set apart as a member of the Council of the Twelve. But since they are the right of presidency, they can only be exercised in full by the senior apostle of God on earth, who is the president of the Church.

May I now say—very plainly and very emphatically—that we have the holy priesthood and that the keys of the kingdom of God are here. They are found only in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

By revelation to Joseph Smith, the Lord said that these keys “belong always unto the Presidency of the High Priesthood” (D&C 81:2), and also, “Whosoever receiveth my word receiveth me, and whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those, the First Presidency, whom I have sent” (D&C 112:20).

In this same connection the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “You must make yourselves acquainted with those men who like Daniel pray three times a day toward the House of the Lord. Look to the Presidency and receive instruction.”

Now, brethren, I think there is one thing which we should have exceedingly clear in our minds. Neither the President of the Church, nor the First Presidency, nor the united voice of the First Presidency and the Twelve will ever lead the Saints astray or send forth counsel to the world that is contrary to the mind and will of the Lord.

An individual may fall by the wayside, or have views, or give counsel which falls short of what the Lord intends. But the voice of the First Presidency and the united voice of those others who hold with them the keys of the kingdom shall always guide the Saints and the world in those paths where the Lord wants them to be.

The Lord said very plainly to Joseph Smith “that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church.” (D&C 42:11.)

And also: “The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth.” (D&C 65:2.)

Now, brethren, these things are true. The Lord is with his people. The cause of righteousness shall prevail. Our cause is just, and the Lord will guide and direct us and bring us off triumphant in the end.

I testify that if we shall look to the First Presidency and follow their counsel and direction, no power on earth can stay or change our course as a church, and as individuals we shall gain peace in this life and be inheritors of eternal glory in the world to come. And I say this to you, my good brethren, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Amen.

[shadow]

Can we agree to drop this non issue?

It is an issue, a huge one. Not sure why you can't see it. Joseph Smith said if you don't show up to your court then your excommunication is valid. The reason Snuff says he wrested the keys is because the first presidency upheld his excommunication and the church sustained the first presidency. Get it? Snuff refused to attend his court. He was excommunicated. Joseph Smith himself would sustain such an action. How do we know? Because that's what he said. Precedent has been made from the Prophet himself. So no, Snuff has no keys, no power, no authority. He's an apostate of Christ.

[AI2.0]

Shadow, yes, the court was for Denver (as only he was indicted), but if the court proceedings (time and place) were just for Denver, why did the SP invite Denver's wife to attend and ask Denver who else he'd like to bring?

The better question is, why are you trying so hard to dig a pit for Denver? Why not just let this go? You're spending so much negative energy on a complete non issue. Who really cares, at the end of the day, if he showed up at the mockery of a court anyway? The verdict had already been made. It was signed, sealed, and delivered.

And to Denver, it wasn't a waste of time. Time with the SP wasn't squandered at all. Denver's objective was to ensure that his family knew he wasn't being accused of anything contrary to Jesus Christ or any moral sin, as is frequently the case for these courts. Mission accomplished in spades! And it was also verified that he was indicted for writing a book. No, time was not wasted in the least bit.

Can we agree to drop this non issue?

You are the one who brought this so-called 'non-issue' up by criticizing the SP and the church and trying to make Denver out to be some kind of Martyr. And, what's worse, I can bet that in a couple of weeks, you'll bring this up again and you will make the same exact arguments you made before, using all the same criticisms to try to make St. Denver look good and the SP and the church look bad. That's why it has to be addressed, so when others read your accusations, hopefully, they will remember the facts surrounding this.

And, his family knew what he was being accused of--If they read his book, they know he no longer believed that the LDS church is the Lord's true church on the earth, they knew he didn't believe Thomas S. Monson is the Lord's prophet, who receives divine guidance to run the church, they knew he didn't believe they had the authority to administer saving ordinances. That's called apostasy. But worse--When a person loses their testimony and then goes out to lecture, blog and write books, trying to get others to believe the same, that's grounds for excommunication. Denver Snuffer was warned, he refused to heed the warnings and you are right, he knew it, they knew it-- excommunication was going to be the likely outcome, because he had refused to do ANY of the things they'd admonished him to do to bring himself back in harmony with the church. Just maybe if he'd attended the proceedings and considered bringing useful witnesses to explain why he'd not followed their counsel, he could have bought himself some more time--but he didn't want that. He had chosen excommunication. He just wanted to exploit the situation to further his own agenda.

[underdog]

My responses in blue;

DC 121 is indeed a great story. I don't think it's deceptive.

It is a great story, a story of warning and consequence. You can see yourself and Snuffer described below-


16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house.

20 Their basket shall not be full, their houses and their barns shall perish, and they themselves shall be despised by those that flattered them.

21 They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation.

22 It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea.

23 Wo unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive, and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts; a generation of vipers shall not escape the damnation of hell.

24 Behold, mine eyes see and know all their works, and I have in reserve a swift judgment in the season thereof, for them all;

25 For there is a time appointed for every man, according as his works shall be.


I'm sure you have issues seeing yourself in there since you can't even admit that Snuffer skipped out on his own court, even after he proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose. Then he claims the brethren lost the keys (there's that word) and he wrested them because they didn't reinstate his membership. Of course, Joseph Smith said those who miss their own courts deserve their excommunication. This is easy and basic stuff to grasp but you and the other remnant members cannot see whats right in front of your eyes. "Satan seeketh to turn their hearts away from the truth, that they become blinded" Looks like he's succeeded with Snuffer followers. It's right in front of your face and you still can't see it. Blindness.

Those are great verses. The Lord's "anointed" would apply to Joseph Smith for sure, and those of whom God has anointed by his "own voice." Denver would qualify there. No LDS leaders since Joseph claim to be chosen by God's "own voice." In other words, you should see yourself in these verses.

At least there are two sides, and there is a question to consider! I love you either way. Thanks for your love and concern in return.

I've already destroyed your attempt to discredit Denver, regarding his court. Just like the MSM, you stick to your talking points despite the evidence. For first time readers, here are the facts:

• Denver's stake president personally invited Denver's wife. And then invited Denver to share who else he'd like to attend.

This is true, his wife was invited. 'who else he'd like to attend' did not mean his children, it meant witnesses to speak on his behalf.
Denver's a lawyer, he understood this.

• Denver responded he'd like his kids to attend, and that many of them would drive in from out of state.

This request was denied. That's why his children were not allowed to attend. He was told he could bring witnessess-that doesn't mean bring a bunch of family members, that means 'witnesses' to defend his position that he was not in apostasy.

• The stake president never protested or disagreed in the weeks leading up to the court.

Denver is playing innocent here,
he knows who was invited and who was not. I've also seen that this is a ploy by many Snufferites, to try to bring their whole families with them to the court, when they know it is not appropriate. It's a manipulation by these people to try to gain sympathy, to put pressure on the court to be fearful of giving the verdict that is required (the pressure that this could cause the kids to leave the church), it's dishonest on their part and frankly exploitative and insensitive to use their children in this manner.

• On the day of court, Denver showed up for his court with wife and kids.

When he knew that his children were not to attend the court.

• The SP then surprised everyone with his announcement that his family couldn't attend.

Denver knew they were not invited.
He's not stupid, he knew that the letter invited his wife and any witnesses he wanted to bring, which did not mean his children.

• They talked for an hour and the SP held firm to his decision, despite acknowledging that he had indeed received word from Denver about who would be attending in advance.

• The SP then acknowledged that Denver was a "Temple recommend worthy" member.

The stake pres. was acknowledging that Denver was not being accused of moral infractions, which would have precluded taking his temple recommend before his court. I assume this also means that the SP had not pulled his recommend up to the point of his court, which was the right thing to do. He was accused of apostasy.

• The SP also acknowledged that it was "for a book" that the court was being held.

It was for the teachings in the Book which Snuffer had been told to pull, which he refused to do. The book is proof that Denver Snuffer no longer believed that the church was true, and he was using his influence to encourage others to believe the same. His book was full of revisionist/twisting of information as well.

• The SP acknowledged that he had stood down from prosecuting a court on the direction of a General Authority. Denver then stated that was proof that it wasn't the SP's decision, but that he was being directed.

The SP should have held a court on Snuffer when it was first brought to his attention, instead, he chose to give Snuffer some time. It was to no avail and ever since, Snuffer has been using his compassion to criticize and challenge the SP's actions. Frankly, I don't know why the Stake Prs. didn't know about Snuffer's activities, maybe he was busy and hadn't read his book or had ignored concerns as they were brought to him--they are human. It's too bad he needed to be informed of Snuffer's activities by General authorities. It shouldn't have had to take them contacting him to get something done about Snuffer's obvious apostate activities.

So Shadow, stop bearing false witness. You simply lie when you say, Denver "proved himself as the one who missed it on purpose."He's not lying, Denver Snuffer CHOSE to sit outside and not attend his disciplinary hearing. Can you not admit facts when they are presented to you?
Do you always have to fight against anything that doesn't fit your paradigm of poor Denver the martyr??? You continue to swear falsely about this, and it's not even a huge thing IMHO. I mean, so what if he missed it? The decision to ex him was already made! Honestly, what would be the point of showing up to give credence to the false court? But he DID show up, with his family, as he reported in advance he would do. And yet you attempt to ascribe some great sin to Denver by saying "he has sinned when he hasn't sinned" (see verse below that you quoted). The words of the scriptures you ignorantly quote seem to apply perfectly in this case to you:

16 Cursed are all those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them.

17 But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.

18 And those who swear falsely against my servants, that they might bring them into bondage and death—

19 Wo unto them...

Did you read that scripture carefully before you posted it, because they certainly apply to you. You are as guilty of crying 'transgression' and 'swearing falsely' against the Lord's servants as anyone. The way you've spoken against LDS prophets and leaders is an example of this.

Most of what you say in blue above are your assertions. Assertions are not equal to truth.

This is such a complete non issue.

Which proves a point: you all are grasping for and stooping to such low depths to try to find "dirt" on Denver. You can't find anything "antiChrist" in his teachings or else the Church would have published it far and wide, so what do you do? You try to dig a pit for him.

The point is he informed his SP well in advance of the meeting of who would be coming, per the SP's request. Denver meticulously complied with the SP's wishes and informed the SP of who to expect would be coming. This is an undisputed fact. Factually, what we can say is that the SP did not deny Denver's stated attendees PRIOR to the meeting.

We might ask, why the SP didn't speak up in the weeks or days leading up to the court, and tell Denver he could not bring his family (besides his wife, I assume)? We can speculate:

• The SP is a jerk, and intended all along to let Denver's family drive in and then deny them entrance. That's a possibility. But we don't know.

• The SP doesn't like conflict, and didn't want to say No till he was forced to at the very hour of the court. This is a definite possibility. Many people don't like conflict and avoid it at all costs until there's no choice but to address it.

• The SP innocently forgot. I find it hard to imagine in a case of such high visibility that he could have truly forgotten to respond. Though it's a possibility. Just a remote one.

• The SP was ordered by his superiors very late in the ballgame to deny his family. The SP was blindsided by this order and tried to do damage control at the last minute, and obviously wouldn't want to admit that he's being micromanaged from above. This seems possible, though less likely.

Can you think of why the SP would wait to the last minute to speak up?

This episode doesn't make Denver look bad in my view, it makes the SP look bad.