LDS Freedom Forum

Thomas wrote: ↑August 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm Sorry to say but I can add to Underdog's list:

8. Paid leaders. (See Alma 1)

9. Popular leaders. (See Alma 1)

10. Leaders that esteem themselves to be on a greater standing than everyone else. ( See Alma 1)

11. There is supposed to be equality in authority between the First Presidency, 12 apostles, Seventies, and high councils. ( See D&C 107) This was overturned when Brigham Young pulled a coup. No revelation supports the change.

12. The body of the priesthood is supposed to pick the first presidency. ( See D&C 107) another post Brigham coup change done without revelation.

13. Turning the sustaining vote into a test of loyalty instead of a real vote, where people can vote without reprisal. In other words changing the church from one of equality, run by the common consent of the members, into a dictatorship. ( Another Brigham coup issue)

14. Idolatry. worshipping the brethren instead of Christ and the Father.

15. Church built up to get gain. (See 1 Nephi 28)

16. Removing the Lectures on Faith from our cannon.

17. Changing the ordnances. ( See Isaiah and words of Joseph Smith)

18. Using to priesthood to cover sins. ( See D&C 121 and Elder Oaks statement that we cannot point out faults in leaders, even if true.)

19. Binding burdens upon the poor that the leaders will not bear themselves. ( See various conference talks about paying tithing before food, rent or electricity and Elder Holland's talk where he says, he has never known what it is like to be poor. True leaders, lead by example. They don't ask others to do what they wont do themselves.)

20. Failing to live consecration and claiming no loss of blessings or status for the failure.

21. Denying the fullness of the gospel. ( See D&C 84 where the fullness of the gospel is described as being brought into the presence of God and Elder Oaks Boise Rescue talk, where he denies the necessity of it).

22. Denying the chastisement of God. ( D&C 84, 101, 124)

This is not a complete list by any means but it is all I have time for right now.

Thomas wrote: ↑August 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm Sorry to say but I can add to Underdog's list:

8. Paid leaders. (See Alma 1)

9. Popular leaders. (See Alma 1)

10. Leaders that esteem themselves to be on a greater standing than everyone else. ( See Alma 1)

11. There is supposed to be equality in authority between the First Presidency, 12 apostles, Seventies, and high councils. ( See D&C 107) This was overturned when Brigham Young pulled a coup. No revelation supports the change.

12. The body of the priesthood is supposed to pick the first presidency. ( See D&C 107) another post Brigham coup change done without revelation.

13. Turning the sustaining vote into a test of loyalty instead of a real vote, where people can vote without reprisal. In other words changing the church from one of equality, run by the common consent of the members, into a dictatorship. ( Another Brigham coup issue)

14. Idolatry. worshipping the brethren instead of Christ and the Father.

15. Church built up to get gain. (See 1 Nephi 28)

16. Removing the Lectures on Faith from our cannon.

17. Changing the ordnances. ( See Isaiah and words of Joseph Smith)

18. Using to priesthood to cover sins. ( See D&C 121 and Elder Oaks statement that we cannot point out faults in leaders, even if true.)

19. Binding burdens upon the poor that the leaders will not bear themselves. ( See various conference talks about paying tithing before food, rent or electricity and Elder Holland's talk where he says, he has never known what it is like to be poor. True leaders, lead by example. They don't ask others to do what they wont do themselves.)

20. Failing to live consecration and claiming no loss of blessings or status for the failure.

21. Denying the fullness of the gospel. ( See D&C 84 where the fullness of the gospel is described as being brought into the presence of God and Elder Oaks Boise Rescue talk, where he denies the necessity of it).

22. Denying the chastisement of God. ( D&C 84, 101, 124)

23 Requiring the sustaining of Pres Monson before administering baptism. (See the doctrine of Christ. 3 Nephi 11. D&C 10: 66-67)

24. Keeping the finances of the church secret. (See D&C 104 finances are to be expended by common consent of the church members )

25.Changing the name of the church to, The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. ( See 3 Nephi 27)

26. Denying baptism to children of Gay couples and the children of polygamists.( See Matthew 19: 14)

This is not a complete list by any means but it is all I have time for right now.

Thomas wrote: ↑August 31st, 2017, 9:57 pm Sorry to say but I can add to Underdog's list:

8. Paid leaders. (See Alma 1)

9. Popular leaders. (See Alma 1)

10. Leaders that esteem themselves to be on a greater standing than everyone else. ( See Alma 1)

11. There is supposed to be equality in authority between the First Presidency, 12 apostles, Seventies, and high councils. ( See D&C 107) This was overturned when Brigham Young pulled a coup. No revelation supports the change.

12. The body of the priesthood is supposed to pick the first presidency. ( See D&C 107) another post Brigham coup change done without revelation.

13. Turning the sustaining vote into a test of loyalty instead of a real vote, where people can vote without reprisal. In other words changing the church from one of equality, run by the common consent of the members, into a dictatorship. ( Another Brigham coup issue)

14. Idolatry. worshipping the brethren instead of Christ and the Father.

15. Church built up to get gain. (See 1 Nephi 28)

16. Removing the Lectures on Faith from our cannon.

17. Changing the ordnances. ( See Isaiah and words of Joseph Smith)

18. Using to priesthood to cover sins. ( See D&C 121 and Elder Oaks statement that we cannot point out faults in leaders, even if true.)

19. Binding burdens upon the poor that the leaders will not bear themselves. ( See various conference talks about paying tithing before food, rent or electricity and Elder Holland's talk where he says, he has never known what it is like to be poor. True leaders, lead by example. They don't ask others to do what they wont do themselves.)

20. Failing to live consecration and claiming no loss of blessings or status for the failure.

21. Denying the fullness of the gospel. ( See D&C 84 where the fullness of the gospel is described as being brought into the presence of God and Elder Oaks Boise Rescue talk, where he denies the necessity of it).

22. Denying the chastisement of God. ( D&C 84, 101, 124)

23 Requiring the sustaining of Pres Monson before administering baptism. (See the doctrine of Christ. 3 Nephi 11. D&C 10: 66-67)

24. Keeping the finances of the church secret. (See D&C 104 finances are to be expended by common consent of the church members )

25.Changing the name of the church to, The Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. ( See 3 Nephi 27)

26. Denying baptism to children of Gay couples and the children of polygamists.( See Matthew 19: 14)

This is not a complete list by any means but it is all I have time for right now.

In the month of February, 1848, the Twelve Apostles met at Hyde Park, Pottawattamie County, Iowa, where a
smalql Branch of the Church established; and I must say that I feel not a little proud of the circumstance, and
also very thankful, on account of its happening in my own little retired and sequestered hamlet, bearing my
own name. We were in prayer and council, communing together; and what took place on that occasion? The
voice of God came from on high, and spake to the Council. Every latent feeling was aroused, and every heart
melted. What did it say unto us? "Let my servant Brigham step forth and receive the full power of the
presiding Priesthood in my Church and kingdom." This was the voice of the Almighty unto us at Council
Bluffs, before I removed to what was called Kanesville. It has been said by some that Brigham was appointed
by the people, and not by the voice of God. I do not know that this testimony has often, if ever, been given to the masses of the people before; but I am one that was present, and there are others here that were also present
on that occasion, and did hear and feel the voice from heaven, and we were filled with the power of God. This
is my testimony; these are my declarations unto the Saints − unto the members of the kingdom of God in the
last days, and to all people.

Orson Hyde

shadow wrote: ↑August 31st, 2017, 10:25 pm Are the Snuffster followers getting a bit insecure with their new religion? Is that why they have to attack another faith? Indeed they are. They're probably not smart enough to recognize it yet, they're dumb enough to follow "David", but I see hope that they'll come around.

In my meditations, this morning, the Spirit of the Lord came upon me, and I was moved to write: and being grieved in my spirit on account of false pretenses by evil designing persons to gain power, and lead away the flock of God; It whispered me and said:

Evil men, ambitious of power, must needs arise among you, and they shall be led by their own self-will and not by me. Yet they are instruments in my hands, and are permitted to try my people, and to collect from among them those who are not the elect, and such as are unworthy of eternal life. Grieve not after them, neither mourn nor be alarmed. My people know my voice and also the voice of my spirit, and a stranger they will not follow, therefore such as follow strangers are not my people. Behold James J. Strang hath cursed my people by his own spirit and not by mine. Never at any time have I appointed that wicked man to lead my people, neither by my own voice, nor by the voice of my servant Joseph Smith, neither by the voice of mine angel: but he hath sought to deceive and Satan helpeth him; but before of old was he one that was ordained to gather the tares of the field, and mine angels have chosen him to do it because he was a wicked man, even as Judas was chosen to betray his Lord. But his spirit and ambition shall soon fail him, and then shall he be called to judgment and receive that portion which is his mete, and his treacherous followers, who have forsaken the counsel of their brethren and turned from the covenants of their God, and have cast asunder the tenderest ties, must drink from a bitter cup.

Let no man who putteth his trust in me be troubled about his rights. The worthy shall have their rights and no power can prevent it, for I will give them the hearts of my people, and their voice is my voice, even as my voice is the voice of my father; and what they bind on earth I will bind in heaven. But the unworthy have no rights except these, repentance or condemnation. If they act upon the former, behold they are justified, but if not, they must suffer the consequences of the latter.

By this you may know the unworthy among my people: for whomsoever they reject, the same are rejected of me. And woe to such as shall follow him who hath been rejected by my people. If my people sin I will correct and chasten them because I love them, yet I will not reject them, neither give my kingdom to other people, for behold the end draweth nigh, and judgement will I pour out upon your oppressors and upon those who accuse you to hide their own iniquity and their shame, and to get power for unholy purposes and not for the building up of my kingdom. Let such beware lest they fall by the hand of the destroyer, whose arrows are plague and pestilence, before their designs are accomplished.

Let my saints gather up with all consistent speed and remove westward, except such as are counselled to tarry and must needs remain to settle their business according to the counsel of my servant JOSEPH SMITH, in the day that he was with you in the flesh, and also to the counsel of my servants, the Twelve whom I have chosen, and who have abode in me.

Let there be no more disputes or contentions among you about doctrine or principle, neither who shall be greatest, but hearken to those things which I have spoken unto you, and which have before been given and you shall rest in my kingdom, and have glory and honour for ever and ever--Yea! Saith the Spirit, and the Spirit is truth, and the truth abideth for ever: Amen. ("He that hath ears to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the Churches," Latter-Day Saints' Millennial Star 7 (15 May 1846):157-58, emphasis added.)

Brother John referred to some persons receiving revelations. I say to such persons, Go ahead, and get all the revelations you can. If brother Joseph visits you every night, go ahead, and tell him to bring brother Hyrum, father Smith, Don Carlos Smith, St. Paul, Peter, James, and John, and Jesus Christ, if you can induce him to do so. But I could almost lay my hand on that Bible and swear that the man or woman who gets such revelations has been guilty of adultery, or of theft, or has been rebellious and apostatized in feelings, but has come back again, and now professes to have such revelations. Hell is full of such revelations; and I could almost testify that a man or woman who receives them has been guilty of some outrageous crime. I have had men come to me and tell the wonderful great dreams and visions which they have, when those very persons have apostatized heretofore, have denied their God and their religion; and I knew it. Many come to me and tell me what wonderful visions they have—that their minds are open to eternal things—that they can see visions of eternity open before them and understand all about this kingdom—many of whom have at some time been guilty of betraying their brethren, or committing some atrocious crime. I never notice them much. I sit and hear them talk about their wonderful knowledge, but it passes in and out of my ears like the sound of the wind. It is for me to see to this kingdom, that it is built up, and to preserve the Saints from the grasp of the enemy. The visions of the class I have mentioned are nothing to me. They may exhibit their great knowledge before me; but when they have done, it is all gone from me.
Some are very anxious that I should have visions. I have all that the Lord gives to me; and all that he keeps back he may; for that is no concern of mine. We are on the old ship Zion; and if God is not at the helm, the old ship will wreck and go to the Devil. As for my taking charge of the kingdom of God on the earth, exclusively and independently of direction from heaven, I shall not do any such thing. If the Lord does not direct the old ship and act as captain and pilot, it will go to destruction, and I care not how quick.
He is at the helm, and will stay there. If you and I will bring our feelings to the point I have just spoken of, he will continue to guide the welfare of Zion and all its rights. (JD 5:351-352)

GRANDFATHER'S CONFESSION AND TESTIMONY—HIS EXHORTATION AND REQUEST—RETURN HOME WITH MY BROTHER ISAAC, THUS FULFILLING MY FATHER'S PREDICTION—THE LESSONS I LEARNED BY MY EXPERIENCE.
AFTER taking a bath I put on my new suit, but was ashamed then to appear before the family, as my surroundings seemed so nice that my old-fashioned suit was made to appear worse than it really was. I therefore decided to remain in the bedroom until I was invited out.
My aunts, Vilate and Adelia, insisted upon my joining the family, and if ever I felt ashamed of myself in the world it was then.
My father came to me in a few minutes and could not refrain from smiling. I suppose it was my clothes that amused him. He immediately requested his wife Adelia to comb my hair, which was to me a severe infliction, as I feared the results. However, this operation was safely passed, proving that my fears were groundless, and the remainder of the day I spent pleasantly, viewing the premises.
Imagine my astonishment when, in the evening, my father called into the room about twenty of his boys and girls and five or six of his wives. After being introduced we spent the evening reviewing my past life.
I learned that my father was quite prepared to find me in such a rough condition, for Lewis Robison, on arriving in the valley ahead of me, had informed him that I was one of the most uncouth boys he ever met in all his travels.
At bedtime father extended to me the privilege of sleeping with the boys, in a new room that he had built. This kindness I appreciated very much, although after retiring, the boys commenced making sport of their "country brother," which caused me to get on the war path, an indulgence I was rather fond of, having been compelled to fight my own way from childhood, through having no father or mother to take my part.
However, father soon put a stop to this, by appearing in his night-clothes and telling the boys he would attend to them if they did not keep quiet. We soon learned to love and respect each other.
All the liberties were extended to me that I needed, but in a few days I became home-sick. Although everybody was very kind to me, I could not help thinking of my old home, for all were strangers to me here.
Father, perceiving this, set me to work, hauling wood, and I soon forgot my troubles, and in the winter I attended school, during which time my father informed me of his desire for me to return to the States for my brother Isaac.
He asked me what I thought of being baptized.
I told him I didn't know.
He replied that I could do just as I pleased, but if I believed in the principles of the gospel he would like me to be baptized before going back. Nothing more was said on the subject for several months, when I was again asked if I had concluded to be baptized.
I told him I had, and he proposed immediately to send for Enoch Reese and have him baptize me.
We then went up City Creek, above the Church blacksmith's shop, where I was baptized by Brother Reese. After returning to the house my father confirmed me, and also ordained me an Elder and set me apart for a mission to the States, for the purpose of bringing my brother Isaac, and thus confirming the blessing pronounced upon me in my infancy.
I was also to seek Orin Rockwell (Porter Rockwell's eldest son), and bring him and as many others as I could induce to come.
I left home for the States on the 16th of April, 1863, in company with my brother Heber and others, with mule and horse teams, and we made the trip to the Missouri River in twenty-one days.
After remaining a few days in Florence, Nebraska, I set out for home on horseback. On arriving at Omaha my horse became very lame, and I left it and started out afoot.
I found my brother Heber at Kanesville, Iowa, where he had gone on business. He bought me a suit of clothes and a pair of shoes, and gave me a few dollars in money.
I left Kanesville about noon, making Glenwood (twenty miles distant) the same day. I stopped at a hotel for the night, and started out at eight o'clock next morning.
I arrived at my old home after dark, having walked fifty miles that day, and my feet were very sore.
My grandfather, grandmother, brother and friends were all glad to see me, and I spent several days in visiting my old resorts.
A few days after my arrival my grandmother and a portion of the family went out visiting. I remained, at grandfather's request, as he was still an invalid through phthisic, etc., and was unable to leave the house.
When alone, he commenced questioning me concerning Utah, asking me also about Brother Schofield and some others of his acquaintance, but I was unable to give much information concerning them.
He asked me if I had seen my father, Heber C. Kimball. I told him I had. He replied that he was glad of it.
He also asked me if I had been baptized, and I told him I had. He again replied that he was glad of it.
He next asked me if I had received my endowments, and, when I informed him that I had, he seemed pleased.
He then said: "I have suffered you to be prejudiced to the extent that you were, and it is now my duty to remove the same.
"You went off without asking my consent, which was all right. I knew that Heber C. Kimball was your father, and always did know it; but did not calculate that it should be known by you.
"I intended that you and Isaac should be the means of my support while I lived.
"You have now been to your father, and that is all right.
"I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God, and I know that Brigham Young is his legal successor, and I always did know it. But the trouble with me was I wanted to lead, and could not be led. I have run my race and sealed my doom, and I know what I have got to meet.
"I died once, and was dead for some length of time. My spirit left my body and went to the land of spirits. I saw the crown that I should wear if I remained faithful, and the condemnation I should receive if I did not. I begged to remain, but was informed that I must return and warn the people to repent, as my work on earth was not yet done.
"After my spirit returned to my body, those around discovered the appearance of life. The first words that I spoke were to Sidney Rigdon, who was stooping over me. I called upon him to repent of his sins, or he would be damned."
My grandfather paused here, but continued by saying: "I want you to go back to your father, taking your brother Isaac with you, as I know he is a good man, and remain steadfast to 'Mormonism.'
"Let what may turn up, never yield the point; for it will save and exalt you in the kingdom of God."
He wept like a child after saying this. He then said to me:
"One favor I wish to ask of you, namely, that you will not divulge this confession to those whom I lead while I live."
With this he released me, and I continued my visiting.
My brother was perfectly willing to accompany me, so in a few days we started out for Florence, accompanied by one cousin (Jedediah Anderson), and Charles Cox and two live raccoons, which we brought along as curiosities.
After arriving at Florence we remained a few weeks, preparing to return to Salt Lake and drive teams for our brother Heber.
We arrived in the valley safely, and father was much pleased at our return, and gladly welcomed brother Isaac to his home.
My brother was as well suited as I had previously been, and soon after joined the Church.
We then contentedly settled down with father and remained with him almost to the time of his death, which occurred on the 22nd of June, 1868.
In this manner did I find a loving and kind father, whose character had been most shamefully maligned, and, though I was at one time reluctant to make his acquaintance, yet I have often thanked God since for such an exemplary parent.
I learned by the experience which I have related many lessons that I trust I may profit by as long as I live. I learned how difficult it is to overcome prejudices and false impressions, especially when formed in early youth or childhood.
I learned what a mischievous and dangerous quality ambition is, when not properly controlled. In the case of my grandfather, ambition for worldly honors, for office and position among men, led him to outrage his conscience. It caused him to barter away his claim upon the eternal riches and honor and glory of heaven for a miserable mess of pottage. It caused him to lead a false life. It caused him to make a pretense of believing that which he had a positive knowledge was untrue. It caused him to bring himself under condemnation by deceiving others. It even caused him to mislead his own offspring until he could do so no longer.
I learned something of the misery and sense of loss and remorse of conscience that result from such a course as that which my grandfather pursued, and I hope that his example may ever prove a warning to all who read this sketch. May they avoid such unlawful aspirations as caused his ruin, and live so that they can ever look back with satisfaction upon the past and forward with joy to the future. (Abraham A. Kimball, Gems for the Young Folks [Salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 16-18., https://www.gutenberg.org/files/46601/4 ... 6601-h.htm)

Jesef wrote: ↑August 31st, 2017, 9:47 am

AI2.0 wrote: ↑August 31st, 2017, 8:39 am
Silver pie said that you claim to have seen the Savior. Is that true?

I think she jumped to that conclusion in response to my saying this a few posts earlier:. . .

Jesef wrote: ↑June 4th, 2016, 3:45 pm I just want to say, first of all, that I am not of the Denver/Remnant movement - in fact, I started the "Who has jumped off the Denver Snuffer train?" thread, if you want more information on that (but that thread is way too long). I have listened to all the accounts posted on latterdaywitnesses.com, so Matt Crocket's, Rob Smith's, Honor Beecher's (she pulled hers off because of so much bashing/dishonoring), Elizabeth's, and now Michael Hamill's. I believe their accounts and I think the Being they visited with was the Christ. I'll tell you the reasons I believe them and also some of the implications and non-implications (in my opinion):

1. I haven't shared it online, in any detail, and I probably won't (without further constraint from the Spirit, which hasn't come), but generally their experiences bear so many similarities/hallmarks to my own experience that I know they are telling the truth. I'll get into some of those hallmarks in a moment, but I don't believe the devil can counterfeit any of them (these are real signs/tokens it is the Lord, from on High).

2. Discernment: if you listen to their accounts, and it takes hours, all of these folks are telling their stories truthfully. I can't tell you how to discern. Maybe it's a gift or a talent. But they are telling the truth as they see and understand it. I'm going to give that endorsement to Denver, too. I don't sense that any of these folks are deliberately deceiving - they aren't charlatans or frauds. They've sacrificed too much and gotten nothing material in return. Which, if they are being honest, leaves the options of: the entities visiting them are false, they are delusional/crazy (hallucinators), or not everything means exactly what they think it does (this is a complicated one, but it is actually the most probable, in my view).

3. Hallmark 1 & 2: Forgiveness/Healing and Pure LOVE. This one very potentially dismantles the option that they are being deceived by a false spirit or entity, in my opinion. When the Christ appears, often recognized instantly as Jesus, for example, to a person in a waking vision or night vision/dream or out-of-body/in-the-spirit experience, all of these accounts (and it accords perfectly with mine) demonstrated that one of the first things He did was forgive them of their sins (or in Elizabeth's case, she was given to know that she was clean and worthy in His presence), this is coupled with an almost indescribable and overwhelming radiation of pure divine LOVE, filled with JOY and PEACE. Now, sure the devil has some clunky counterfeits: flattery/pride/ego/adulation, excitement/adrenaline, escapism/distraction, desensitization/numbing, appearance of light, awe, maybe fear, maybe some other special effects (magic/illusion), etc. But I'm telling you, I just don't think he could fake forgiveness of sins and having all of one's guilt and shame and pain/anguish swept away, real healing of a broken heart and uplifting one's soul. What Christ does, just by His presence, to one's soul, if He comes to visit, is palpable, powerful, life-changing, and I believe un-counterfeitable. It is like the contrast between pain/anguish/loneliness/sorrow and pure love and joy, between being sick and being completely healed/healthy (spiritually).

4. Hallmark 3: Purity and Holiness. Christ's presence is so full of real/actual, true, powerful divine LIGHT (filled with LOVE, JOY, PEACE, GOODNESS, all the "fruits" of the Spirit of God) that it literally sweeps away ALL the darkness. It flees from one's soul. It isn't just an appearance of light, it feels like light, truth, glory, purity, holiness, goodness, joy, peace, to such a magnificent degree, emanating from His presence/being, that it penetrates one's soul to the very core and throughout, it radiates and overfills - it is literally the best feeling EVER - with not an ounce of darkness, no lust or appetite, it's peaceful and calm and controlled versus exciting and/or titillating, and yet your soul is bursting with joy. I cried (even though I was in the spirit, out of body) for joy.

5. Hallmark 4: Comfort. I was grieving and lonely and in pain, my heart was broken in pieces and my spirit as low as it could be, and He came and administered comfort. A lot of these are all wrapped into ONE HUGE feeling or Presence. So comfort is similar to Hallmark 1, which was forgiveness and healing. What was broken, was mended. What felt worthless before, was now imbued with divine nature and the power of godliness. What was weak, was now strong. I awoke directly into my body, crying real wet tears, with all the same feelings, my bosom still burning, my frame shaking, my whole being engulfed in the power of the Holy Ghost. It was a direct transfer of consciousness. One moment I was in His arms (we were in the clouds, light everywhere), like a child, the next I was awake in my bed.

I'm not going to say anything else. This experience was intensely personal. I'm not going to share what I learned or what was said to me. I really do believe that things from above are sacred and should be spoken with care and constraint by the Spirit. Most of you on here don't even know my real name and I'm not going to share that either.

But I will say that I don't think this experience or its associated blessings have ANYTHING to do with Denver Snuffer or his movement (to try and qualify to build ZION) - my experience happened many years ago as a young, faithful, single young man in the LDS Church. I think it has EVERYTHING to do with a real, pure broken heart and contrite/humbled spirit - this can be precipitated by great sacrifice, loss, or grief. Both of my visits from the Lord were precipitated by great losses which resulted in my feeling truly, utterly broken and bereft. Yet I was doing everything in my power to be faithful and true to God to the very best of my understanding (I think this gets harder as we get older, in a way). I was visited by the Lord (appearance) as a teenager and as a young adult, and I was visited by the voice of the Father (always with the Power of the Holy Ghost) when I was a child (when I was baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost) and a few other times, most recently about 2 years ago. These are unmistakable experiences.

I know a lot of the questions I've asked have confused many of you (in the Remnant movement). It's okay for you to be confused. Many of you don't understand where I've been, where I am, or where I'm going - that's okay, too. Many of you don't understand why I'm asking the questions I've asked. I will say this, though, I've taken some strange detours along this spiritual climb/quest (nothing really harmful, mostly educational), but in the process I have met false spirits, all kinds. I'll tell you this, every little voice is not of God, "tingles" or "chills" - what some call ASMR (look it up) or frisson - is NOT the POWER of the Holy Ghost. Simply feeling resonance or vibrational energy, etc., is also NOT the POWER of the Holy Ghost. I had to discover this the hard way (not too hard, thank Heaven) - good thing I had set bounds to what I was willing to do in testing many of these spirits. These descriptions contain some of the signs/tokens of the true power of the Holy Ghost, and the voice of God - a still, small, mild, perfectly calm voice or whisper, that pierces to the very soul and can cause the heart (core of one's soul/being) to burn with holy fire and cause one's frame to shake/quake. Devils and false spirits can't do this. They try to fake it with fear and excitement but there's no comparison. They can't really fake Love, holiness, forgiveness, peace, comfort, healing, or pure joy. Their counterfeits are tainted. Honestly, I think most of the "voices" people are listening to are their own, not God's, which would explain why so many people seem to basically get the answers they want (consciously or subconsciously).

Helaman 5
30 And it came to pass when they heard this voice, and beheld that it was not a voice of thunder, neither was it a voice of a great tumultuous noise, but behold, it was a still voice of perfect mildness, as if it had been a whisper, and it did pierce even to the very soul--

3 Ne 11:3
3 And it came to pass that while they were thus conversing one with another, they heard a voice as if it came out of heaven; and they cast their eyes round about, for they understood not the voice which they heard; and it was not a harsh voice, neither was it a loud voice; nevertheless, and notwithstanding it being a small voice it did pierce them that did hear to the center, insomuch that there was no part of their frame that it did not cause to quake; yea, it did pierce them to the very soul, and did cause their hearts to burn.

D&C 85:6
6 Yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things, and often times it maketh my bones to quake while it maketh manifest, saying:

JST 1 Kgs 19:12
12 And after the earthquake a fire, but the Lord was not in the fire; and after the fire a still small voice.

This is too long, so I'll stop there. I don't have time to explain how I believe many of these things may not have some of the implications that some people think (like you need to follow Denver and his message, for example). Or how I've discovered that many, many truth seekers, across many religions and cultures, are having these same experiences in their own contexts/paradigms (that God is over all, truly). Peace and Love to all of you, though - I hope you all find God and the tree of life and are able to fall down and partake of this most precious fruit.

Jesef wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 10:30 am I am certainly not denying the experience I had (the lengthy quote from another thread), I was simply responding within the context of this thread - and I had not shared anything of the sort here

Jesef wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 10:30 am Also, I found Snuffer re-contextualizing many of his spiritual experiences. In his first book, The Second Comforter, 2006 (he was ex'd in 2013), he recounts an experience in connection with doing temple work for some of his dead male ancestors in which he testifies that after doing the baptisms, these 11 male spirits kept bugging him and didn't want him to leave the Temple that day until he had completed their washings & anointings and their endowments - which Snuffer now teaches that all of these ordinances were invalid (the Church was rejected with its dead, meaning baptisms for the dead and all Melchizedek Priesthood ordinances, including endowment, were invalid after 1844) - so why would real spirits on the other side be pestering him for useless ordinances? Makes no sense at all.

mcusick wrote: ↑September 8th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 10:30 am Also, I found Snuffer re-contextualizing many of his spiritual experiences. In his first book, The Second Comforter, 2006 (he was ex'd in 2013), he recounts an experience in connection with doing temple work for some of his dead male ancestors in which he testifies that after doing the baptisms, these 11 male spirits kept bugging him and didn't want him to leave the Temple that day until he had completed their washings & anointings and their endowments - which Snuffer now teaches that all of these ordinances were invalid (the Church was rejected with its dead, meaning baptisms for the dead and all Melchizedek Priesthood ordinances, including endowment, were invalid after 1844) - so why would real spirits on the other side be pestering him for useless ordinances? Makes no sense at all.

Maybe his ancestors were converted by apostate LDS missionaries in the Spirit World! =))

Thomas wrote: ↑September 9th, 2017, 12:00 am

mcusick wrote: ↑September 8th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 10:30 am Also, I found Snuffer re-contextualizing many of his spiritual experiences. In his first book, The Second Comforter, 2006 (he was ex'd in 2013), he recounts an experience in connection with doing temple work for some of his dead male ancestors in which he testifies that after doing the baptisms, these 11 male spirits kept bugging him and didn't want him to leave the Temple that day until he had completed their washings & anointings and their endowments - which Snuffer now teaches that all of these ordinances were invalid (the Church was rejected with its dead, meaning baptisms for the dead and all Melchizedek Priesthood ordinances, including endowment, were invalid after 1844) - so why would real spirits on the other side be pestering him for useless ordinances? Makes no sense at all.

Maybe his ancestors were converted by apostate LDS missionaries in the Spirit World! =))

Not true Jesef. Denver teaches that by the faith of those who attended the temple, the ordinances could be ratified by God. He used Zachariah as an example and the story of when the angel Gabriel visited Zachariah in the corrupt temple. He also used the example of Hannah and Eli. Eli being a wicked priest that granted Hannah a blessing and God honored that blessing because of Hannah's faith. See, Orem lecture. He also said, he agreed with Eyring's conference talk on the subject of temple ordinances, wherein. Eyring stated that temple ordinances needed to be ratified by the Holy Spirit to be valid.

Denver said, God didn't fully reject the church until April 2014.

Thomas wrote: ↑September 9th, 2017, 12:00 am

mcusick wrote: ↑September 8th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 10:30 am Also, I found Snuffer re-contextualizing many of his spiritual experiences. In his first book, The Second Comforter, 2006 (he was ex'd in 2013), he recounts an experience in connection with doing temple work for some of his dead male ancestors in which he testifies that after doing the baptisms, these 11 male spirits kept bugging him and didn't want him to leave the Temple that day until he had completed their washings & anointings and their endowments - which Snuffer now teaches that all of these ordinances were invalid (the Church was rejected with its dead, meaning baptisms for the dead and all Melchizedek Priesthood ordinances, including endowment, were invalid after 1844) - so why would real spirits on the other side be pestering him for useless ordinances? Makes no sense at all.

Maybe his ancestors were converted by apostate LDS missionaries in the Spirit World! =))

Not true Jesef. Denver teaches that by the faith of those who attended the temple, the ordinances could be ratified by God. He used Zachariah as an example and the story of when the angel Gabriel visited Zachariah in the corrupt temple. He also used the example of Hannah and Eli. Eli being a wicked priest that granted Hannah a blessing and God honored that blessing because of Hannah's faith. See, Orem lecture. He also said, he agreed with Eyring's conference talk on the subject of temple ordinances, wherein. Eyring stated that temple ordinances needed to be ratified by the Holy Spirit to be valid.

Denver said, God didn't fully reject the church until April 2014.

There is nothing special about us, but there can be. We do not need hundreds of temples, but will need one to which Christ can come. We will not need to perform endless work for the dead until first there has been a covenant made by God with us. We must be first connected to the fathers in heaven. Only then can we do something to liberate the dead.[1411]

[1411] See Elijah Reconsidered, found in the book Essays: Three Degrees. In The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil I discuss eleven ancestors whose work I performed in the Jordan River Temple. Since that time my understanding has increased and I now view their willingness and appearance to confirm they qualify, as Alvin Smith qualified. See D&C 137:7-9. When Zion and a temple exist, I anticipate ordinances will be provided for them.

AI2.0 wrote: ↑September 9th, 2017, 3:42 pm

Thomas wrote: ↑September 9th, 2017, 12:00 am

mcusick wrote: ↑September 8th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 10:30 am Also, I found Snuffer re-contextualizing many of his spiritual experiences. In his first book, The Second Comforter, 2006 (he was ex'd in 2013), he recounts an experience in connection with doing temple work for some of his dead male ancestors in which he testifies that after doing the baptisms, these 11 male spirits kept bugging him and didn't want him to leave the Temple that day until he had completed their washings & anointings and their endowments - which Snuffer now teaches that all of these ordinances were invalid (the Church was rejected with its dead, meaning baptisms for the dead and all Melchizedek Priesthood ordinances, including endowment, were invalid after 1844) - so why would real spirits on the other side be pestering him for useless ordinances? Makes no sense at all.

Maybe his ancestors were converted by apostate LDS missionaries in the Spirit World! =))

Not true Jesef. Denver teaches that by the faith of those who attended the temple, the ordinances could be ratified by God. He used Zachariah as an example and the story of when the angel Gabriel visited Zachariah in the corrupt temple. He also used the example of Hannah and Eli. Eli being a wicked priest that granted Hannah a blessing and God honored that blessing because of Hannah's faith. See, Orem lecture. He also said, he agreed with Eyring's conference talk on the subject of temple ordinances, wherein. Eyring stated that temple ordinances needed to be ratified by the Holy Spirit to be valid.

Denver said, God didn't fully reject the church until April 2014.

Yes, that's one of the truly illogical and egocentric things that Denver Snuffer has said so far. He makes this whole case in his book PTHG, about how the church was rejected in 1841, yet, he dances around this premise, not wanting to really own it. Then, when he's exed, and his appeal is rejected, only then will he admit that the church is apostate. And why? Because of what they did to him. Honestly, does he think he's the only one who was supposedly 'unfairly' exed in 180 years? Apparently, that was the last straw, with the Lord and now he's ready to throw out the church and all 15 million members, because Denver was supposedly unfairly treated. And this is the guy who's supposed to bring about Zion... 8-|

Jesef wrote: ↑September 9th, 2017, 4:12 pm

Thomas wrote: ↑September 9th, 2017, 12:00 am

mcusick wrote: ↑September 8th, 2017, 10:14 pm

Jesef wrote: ↑September 5th, 2017, 10:30 am Also, I found Snuffer re-contextualizing many of his spiritual experiences. In his first book, The Second Comforter, 2006 (he was ex'd in 2013), he recounts an experience in connection with doing temple work for some of his dead male ancestors in which he testifies that after doing the baptisms, these 11 male spirits kept bugging him and didn't want him to leave the Temple that day until he had completed their washings & anointings and their endowments - which Snuffer now teaches that all of these ordinances were invalid (the Church was rejected with its dead, meaning baptisms for the dead and all Melchizedek Priesthood ordinances, including endowment, were invalid after 1844) - so why would real spirits on the other side be pestering him for useless ordinances? Makes no sense at all.

Maybe his ancestors were converted by apostate LDS missionaries in the Spirit World! =))

Not true Jesef. Denver teaches that by the faith of those who attended the temple, the ordinances could be ratified by God. He used Zachariah as an example and the story of when the angel Gabriel visited Zachariah in the corrupt temple. He also used the example of Hannah and Eli. Eli being a wicked priest that granted Hannah a blessing and God honored that blessing because of Hannah's faith. See, Orem lecture. He also said, he agreed with Eyring's conference talk on the subject of temple ordinances, wherein. Eyring stated that temple ordinances needed to be ratified by the Holy Spirit to be valid.

Denver said, God didn't fully reject the church until April 2014.

In his book "Preserving the Restoration", he explained it differently and it does not agree with what you've said - please feel free to quote other references where he directly teaches what you're saying - but this seems to actually contradict what you've explained - because he's saying/re-contextualizing that those 11 male spirits (who were bugging him for LDS temple ordinances, baptism/confirmation, ordination, washings & anointings, endowments, sealings) were actually just manifesting "willingness" and (future) "qualification" but that they will require the real thing later in your Remnant temple.

There is nothing special about us, but there can be. We do not need hundreds of temples, but will need one to which Christ can come. We will not need to perform endless work for the dead until first there has been a covenant made by God with us. We must be first connected to the fathers in heaven. Only then can we do something to liberate the dead.[1411]

[1411] See Elijah Reconsidered, found in the book Essays: Three Degrees. In The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil I discuss eleven ancestors whose work I performed in the Jordan River Temple. Since that time my understanding has increased and I now view their willingness and appearance to confirm they qualify, as Alvin Smith qualified. See D&C 137:7-9. When Zion and a temple exist, I anticipate ordinances will be provided for them.