Denver Snuffer's Remnant scripture project and covenant

[Thomas]

Thomas, Joseph Smith taught and D&C states plainly that Smith's dispensation was to be the last and it would endure to the 2nd coming. No amount of gymnastics gets around that. Your status is unscriptural.

The Nauvoo Temple issue has also been rebutted numerous times. The foundation of Snufferism is built on air.

Like I said, pick and choose, misinterpret. Your sig line says nothing about Joseph Smith.

The rebuttal of the Nauvoo temple issue is the equivalent of na na na na boo boo, is not true. No substantive argument. I mean how could there be? It is plain as day. All you need to know is were the saints driven from Nauvoo?

Many other issues as well when it comes to the transition. Ask yourself why Emma Smith didn't think the twelve had the authority.

The issues just stack up, higher and higher the more you look into it. But bottom line is this. We do not live by Christian principles. The leaders of the church do not teach us to do so. They teach us to pattern our lives after them instead of Christ. As JS said, you must be exactly what Christ is or not be saved. Therefore, the leaders of the church do not teach a saving doctrine. Instead they teach this:

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

[Seek the Truth]

Like I said, pick and choose, misinterpret. Your sig line says nothing about Joseph Smith.

The rebuttal of the Nauvoo temple issue is the equivalent of na na na na boo boo, is not true. No substantive argument. I mean how could there be? It is plain as day. All you need to know is were the saints driven from Nauvoo?

This has been rebutted so many times it's painful. Joseph Smith himself was planning on moving west before he was murdered and stated that at least twice in TPJS. There is nothing to say the Saints had to stay in Nauvoo forever. And thats just the beginning of your problems.

Many other issues as well when it comes to the transition. Ask yourself why Emma Smith didn't think the twelve had the authority.

Because she was personally miffed that her son didn't get the job. Next.

The issues just stack up, higher and higher the more you look into it. But bottom line is this. We do not live by Christian principles. The leaders of the church do not teach us to do so. They teach us to pattern our lives after them instead of Christ.

And these are all deceptive vagueries, malleable statements that serve a dishonest purpose. Find one statement by any GA going all the way back that says to pattern our lives after them instead of Christ.

Find one statement or retract this dishonesty.

As JS said, you must be exactly what Christ is or not be saved. Therefore, the leaders of the church do not teach a saving doctrine. Instead they teach this:

99 For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas.

100 These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch;

I hate to break this to you, but Denver Snuffer is not exactly like Christ, yet you would trust the arm of his flesh.

The verse you quoted goes against your position in favor of mine. That verse condemns those who wish to follow prophets of old, even Christ, and turn away those called for our day. This verse teaches us to recognize Thomas S Monson as mouthpiece and leader of the True Church of Jesus Christ.

[Seek the Truth]

For those of you new or newly deceived by the Snuffer thing, this pretty much obliterates the whole topic. Everyone should have read this already.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... ne-of-two/

[Thomas]

Find one statement by any GA going all the way back that says to pattern our lives after them instead of Christ.

Find one statement or retract this dishonesty

.

I guess you don't attend church much. Either that or you sleep through the whole thing.

[Thomas]

Because she was personally miffed that her son didn't get the job. Next.

Ya, I don't think she expected her 11 year old son would get the job. But both Brigham and Sidney Rigdon said they would only be temporary stewards til JS III was old enough. Turns out, Brigham Young changed his mind about that.

[Seek the Truth]

Find one statement by any GA going all the way back that says to pattern our lives after them instead of Christ.

Find one statement or retract this dishonesty

.

I guess you don't attend church much. Either that or you sleep through the whole thing.

Ok, so you couldn't find a single statement. Time for a retraction.

[Seek the Truth]

Because she was personally miffed that her son didn't get the job. Next.

Ya, I don't think she expected her 11 year old son would get the job. But both Brigham and Sidney Rigdon said they would only be temporary stewards til JS III was old enough. Turns out, Brigham Young changed his mind about that.

More claims without evidence. Deceptive.

[Seek the Truth]

For those of you new or newly deceived by the Snuffer thing, this pretty much obliterates the whole topic. Everyone should have read this already.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... ne-of-two/

bump

[Thomas]

For those of you new or newly deceived by the Snuffer thing, this pretty much obliterates the whole topic. Everyone should have read this already.

http://www.mormoninterpreter.com/passin ... ne-of-two/

bump

I have read this before. I was not very impressed.

I know that you will not be persuaded by the things I say. I know, my online persona can come off a little harsh. I apologize for that. I post for the benefit of those who are listening in that might still have a heart to hear these things.

I don't want to be degrading or condescending to you but lets get real. Saying that the Nauvoo exodus was a planned event is a but much. People lost everything. They fled in the night over the frozen river. They lost family members and suffered extreme hardships.

I know its hard to let go of your paradigm. It wasn't that easy for me. Like I said earlier, I have prayed and prayed about it. A while back, I had a discussion with my bishop about it. He told me that he thought I was sincere but that I was being deceived by a false spirit. The spirit has prompted me that I must warn people or the consequences are on my head. So I have been warning people. So after meeting with my bishop, I once again prayed and asked the Lord, am I being deceived? Immediately, the Lord reminded me that I had prayed perhaps 1,000 times or more about all this. That I had repeatedly prayed to not be deceived. The Lord reminded me of the answers I have received. In spite of the fact that I had prayed about it so many times, the Lord was not angry with me. He was kind and patient.

The spirit then told me to ask my bishop how many times he had prayed about it. The spirit told me to ask everyone I told this stuff to, how many times have you prayed about it? Have you kneeled before the Lord and prayed with a broken heart, because of what this means to family members and friends 1,000 times like I have? The spirit then said, ask them, do deceiving spirits now roam among men trying to trick them into living by the standards set in the Book of Mormon? Do deceiving spirits now go forth trying to trick us into repenting and believing the revelations that chastise us? Do deceiving spirits try to trick us into repenting of having church built up to make money? Or do deceiving spirits come among us and trick us by saying what the Book of Mormon tells us they will say: All is well, yea, Zion prospereth and all is well as the devil carefully leads us down to hell?

The spirit then explained how Laman and lemeul would not pray about the things Lehi and Nephi said. All of Jerusalem would not pray about it.

I know some here have prayed about it but most don't even consider the idea seriously enough to pray about it.

[Seek the Truth]

He blew Snuffer out of the water.

What you might want to do is read all the scriptures from Christ and statements from Joseph Smith unequivocally stating that President Smith was head of a the last dispensation that would last till the Savior comes again and ask God why he wasn't telling the truth in those instances. I'm going to go with God.

[Seek the Truth]

Here are some examples of Snufferite deception.

The spirit then said, ask them, do deceiving spirits now roam among men trying to trick them into living by the standards set in the Book of Mormon?

The deceiving spirit is telling people God lied when he said we were in the final dispensation.

Do deceiving spirits now go forth trying to trick us into repenting and believing the revelations that chastise us?

The deceiving spirits are telling people a man isn't starting a church when he is, that he isn't claiming to be one might and strong as he reveals his new name is David.

Do deceiving spirits try to trick us into repenting of having church built up to make money?

The deceiving spirit is telling you to tell me the LDS Church is only about making money. Making money as taught by Joseph Smith is only part of what the Church does. The deceiving spirit is not telling anyone the Joseph Smith made money on Times and Season and the Nauvoo House, for starters. There is nothing wrong with making money. Personally, I am grateful to be blessed to live in a time of such material blessing.

Or do deceiving spirits come among us and trick us by saying what the Book of Mormon tells us they will say: All is well, yea, Zion prospereth and all is well as the devil carefully leads us down to hell?

And yet you will not find a single GA who says this. Not one. This is perhaps your ultimate deception, although there are many to choose from. You speak with a deceptive tongue.

The spirit then explained how Laman and lemeul would not pray about the things Lehi and Nephi said. All of Jerusalem would not pray about it.

Of course, Denver Snuffer is not Lehi or Nephi. This is laughable.

[Finrock]

To start, I don't call it Denver Snuffer's Church lightly or carelessly. Regardless of what you say or anyone else says, I've looked at the data available and based on my good sense and ability to comprehend and reason, Denver Snuffer is a leader of a Church. I also have not been convinced based on what I've read (and I've read and have informed myself sufficiently to draw a rational conclusion) that Denver Snuffer speaks for Jesus Christ and that Denver, with his particular doctrine and scriptures, represents Jesus Christ or is the mouthpiece of Christ here on earth. Further, the Spirit of Christ that is within me or the Light of Christ that I possess, does not recognize Denver Snuffer as one who is the mouthpiece of God here on the earth. I have found Denver to be quite skilled in the art of rhetoric and rhetoric devices and that portion of Light that is within me has been turned off by his subtle tactics and, to be direct, subtle manipulations.

By every measure Denver is a leader of a Church, a new brand of religion, and I have no doubt that this is Denver's movement and Denver's religion.

I understand what Denver Snuffer is saying. However, the Spirit says to me something completely different. There are errors and there are things that the LDS Church should repent from. This part seems obviously true to me as a person who no longer is spellbound to my leaders or as one who no longer venerates authority. I certainly respect the leaders of the Church, very much. I see them as no different than I. I have lived in apostasy, and as Thomas pointed out in another thread regarding John Doe's sins, we ought to be quick to forgive and slow to judge and to condemn. Christ treats the leaders of the Church, on a fundamental level, no differently than He treats me. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not rotten to the core and good for nothing but to be trammeled under the feet of men. It is not absolutely corrupt. If it was I would find no Light here. There would be no Good. But, there is and there is much good within the ranks of leadership of the LDS Church. These are my spiritual experiences. I can't say that I know for certainty that every leader in the LDS Church is a true prophet, a true seer, or a true revelator. However, I do believe and I am convinced by the power of the Holy Ghost that many are. I know through the power of the Holy Ghost that Thomas Monson is a true prophet of Jesus Christ, for instance. I don't know that he is a seer or a revelator through the power of the Holy Ghost, but I certainly sustain him in his calling and hope nothing but the best for him. I pray for him and truly hope that he can fulfill the calling he has. I respect his position as the President of the Church, even if he wasn't a true prophet, seer, or revelator. It is Monson's prerogative on how he wants to lead and guide the Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the end, but a means. The LDS Church is a part of Zion, but it is not Zion. God controls His kingdom and God's kingdom is greater than the LDS Church paradigm and greater than the Denver Snuffer paradigm or greater than any single group or individual's paradigm.

I see Denver Snuffer just as I see any man. God is no respecter of persons. His light, to one degree or another, exist in all living things and all people. Denver Snuffer, if he speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost, is speaking God's words. The same is true for any person on this planet. Having a calling and being in a position doesn't guarantee that one has the Holy Ghost. Denver Snuffer, if he speaks God's words, doesn't have a monopoly on speaking for Christ. He doesn't stand above his brethren and sisters. We should not look to him as anything or anyone greater than the least among us. His words don't have a special place in the Halls of the Celestial Kingdom above anyone else. He is just a man, probably doing his best to deal with life and get through this life with a sense of peace and joy.

Authority comes from the Spirit. Period. The Holy Spirit is the authority and the Holy Spirit can be found all over the place and there are many who speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. It isn't just found in an exclusive group, or a special remnant, or a few elites, or with a small number of supposedly holy and exclusively humble people. So, I seek for true messengers from the Father. I discern them by the power of the Holy Ghost. I have taken as my guide the Holy Spirit, which Spirit allows me to hear God's voice and His words when He speaks, be it through whatever mouthpiece that is speaking.

-Finrock

Finrock,

I always appreciate your comments. Thank you. I won't quibble about definitions of "church".

I was objecting to, if you will, your statement that there are inconsistencies in logic of the DS Movement. You said,

The point I'm making is that your paradigm, from my perspective, is inconsistent.

Then I shared how there is no inconsistency. I didn't see your response to my rebuttal.

I hope you don't mind me staying on point. So you agree that there are no inconsistencies? You said, "You are abandoning your trust in one flesh and putting your trust in to another. Flesh is flesh. Authority is authority. If it is wrong here, then it is wrong there. Rationally you can't have it both ways."

No, the "authority" is not what was wrong "there" in the LDS Church. How can "authority" be wrong? What is wrong would be the decisions to abuse it. The Lord is very sensitive to the authority question. Many are called, but few are chosen. The Second Commandment forbids using His name by unauthorized people. Either you're an agent of His, or are you are not.

Thomas stated the following: "The situation we find ourselves in today has scriptural precedent. Almost all people get it wrong. Why? Because they rely on authority or authorities."

Almost all people get it wrong because they rely on authority or authorities. That is what Thomas believes. He isn't applying his believes consistently across the board. He exempts himself from this thing which is wrong when it applies to his paradigm and his "man" or chosen authority. Not to mention that scriptures also fall in to the category of being arguing from authority. You can't reasonably say that it is wrong to rely on authority and then turn around and base your whole paradigm by relying on authorities (scriptures and Denver Snuffer in this instance). He is applying his belief inconsistently. He is special pleading.

I'll use Jesef's response to my post to more clearly point out the inconsistency.

Those believing and following Snuffer actually believe he has authority from Christ/God to do and say what he has and is. Yet they oft quote this "cursed is he that putters his trust in man" from Nephi and apply it to the LDS Prophet/Apostles, but it doesn't apply to how they hold/view Denver. They also fall back to the scriptures as their gold standard of authoritative truth - but the scriptures, themselves were produced via the same pattern we are talking about: the Lord basically inspiring or revealing words to chosen servants/men/prophets - the only difference is they are written words and the guys who wrote them are dead. Also, it is plain to see that nearly any argument can be made and supported using scriptures - Joseph made that very point in recounting his search for the right church, James 1:5, etc. Also, as I've pointed out, many scriptures can simply be ignored or re-worked if they don't fit one's paradigm - like "for the last time" - why didn't the Lord say "the most recent time" to end all confusion and ambiguity? Because, clearly, in context, it means "the final time"! Some of these things are so ridiculous I'm just stunned.

-Finrock

I responded to Jesef's out of context, or partial quote earlier. See above. The full quote he neglected to quote is:

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

This is actually a unifying teaching between LDS Mormons and Remnant Mormons.

I can't speak for Thomas, but I think this is what he means when he said, "Almost all people get it wrong. Why? Because they rely on authority or authorities."

His point I imagine is that you can't just rely on an "authority" (like TSM or Denver Snuffer) BECAUSE HE'S AN AUTHORITY. Denver destroys that notion. He warns against that. Don't take my word for it, he says! Ask the Lord. When you RELY on an "authority" your mind becomes darkened. Denver teaches against a reliance on ANY man, including himself. He really condemns such lazy behavior.

This is what the missionaries used to teach. I used to teach this. Not if you come back and say, "The Lord has taught me by the Spirit that the Brethren can in fact lead us astray", you may very well get excommunicated. Wow.

Circling back, I hope this clarifies there is no inconsistency as you alleged.

I don't say this in an accusatory way and I respect you and your right to worship God according to the dictates of your own conscience. I don't think that you are evil or anything like that. I probably agree with many of your beliefs, if that matters. I probably agree with and I see many of the issues that you see that exist within The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I'm saying what I'm saying because I've looked in to the issue, the claims, I've considered the evidence, I've prayed, I've listened to the Spirit that is inside of me, I've approached this with as open a mind as I'm capable, and I've tried to account for my own egocentric and sociocentric biases.

Your are applying your beliefs inconsistently in the manner that I have described earlier. Denver Snuffer, his religion, his church, does not resolve the issues that you are contending that exist in the LDS Church. You are switching ships, but the ship you are switching to is still a ship, made by hands, and that fundamentally has the same issues as the ship you just jumped from. Not to mention that even though the ship you are abandoning is not without blemish and there is damage and corruption, it is structurally sound and is still accomplishing the purposes that it is intended for. The only ship you should be jumping to, if you are going to jump ship, is the Ship of Christ. Denver's ship is not the Ship of Christ. The best way that I can tell you is that the Ship of Christ encompasses all that is Good, and it is greater than the LDS Ship, or the Denver Ship, or any other Ship. All other ships are swallowed up in Christ. Christ is where it is at, and He is greatest of them all.

God bless you, brother, in your journey. I have no other agenda but to tell you where the Spirit has lead me. I hope and wish nothing but the best for you!

-Finrock

[AI2.0]

Nice quote from one of the Brethren!

Here's one from the dictionary: "self-righteous - convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others : narrow-mindedly moralistic."

Silver pie said that you claim to have seen the Savior. Is that true?

[Jesef]

I agree. Underdog, now all you are saying is that Denver's teachings/precepts are given by the power of the Holy Ghost while that of the LDS Prophets/Apostles are not. So you are essentially claiming that your discernment (and those in your/Denver's movement) is superior.

Furthermore, this question has not received a satisfactory answer, so I'll rephrase it. If Denver's claims were objectively/universally (globally) and actually/really true, why does not the power of the Holy Ghost and the power of God confirm such to sincere seekers such as Finrock (and I would add, myself)? The answer I got (meaning the answer/advice I got from members of the movement when no Divine answer was given), when I asked this at the time I was investigating him, was basically "you have to have the faith to jump ship (follow him and get re-baptized, leave the Church) first, then you'll get an answer" and similar leap-before-you-look (or jump off the cliff to see if you can fly) methods. Joseph Smith didn't do it this way. Missionaries present the Book of Mormon to sincere investigators that they can then read and pray and get a manifestation (Moroni 10:3-5). Why isn't reading/listening to Denver's words and then praying about it sufficient to draw forth an a divine answer to change directions so drastically? Particularly if the eternal consequences are so dire, as you guys keep putting it ("left behind", "too late", you won't be able to join the covenant Gentile group, etc.). It's a ridiculous double-bind.

Also, if some of Denver's teachings/precepts can be proven to be in error, are you willing to reconsider that his are not given by the power of the Holy Ghost?

[Thomas]

Seek the truth wrote:
The deceiving spirit is telling you to tell me the LDS Church is only about making money. Making money as taught by Joseph Smith is only part of what the Church does. The deceiving spirit is not telling anyone the Joseph Smith made money on Times and Season and the Nauvoo House, for starters. There is nothing wrong with making money. Personally, I am grateful to be blessed to live in a time of such material blessing.

All churches built up to gain will fall:

1 Nephi 22:23

23 For the time speedily shall come that all churches which are built up to get gain, and all those who are built up to get power over the flesh, and those who are built up to become popular in the eyes of the world, and those who seek the lusts of the flesh and the things of the world, and to do all manner of iniquity; yea, in fine, all those who belong to the kingdom of the devil are they who need fear, and tremble, and quake; they are those who must be brought low in the dust; they are those who must be consumed as stubble; and this is according to the words of the prophet.

If you give this a little thought, every church built up to get gain is not only just about money. I know of no other church that has been built up to gain as much as the LDS church.

I would be interested in seeing some of examples of the claims you make. Your sig line doesn't reference the LDS church.

[Thomas]

I agree. Underdog, now all you are saying is that Denver's teachings/precepts are given by the power of the Holy Ghost while that of the LDS Prophets/Apostles are not. So you are essentially claiming that your discernment (and those in your/Denver's movement) is superior.

Furthermore, this question has not received a satisfactory answer, so I'll rephrase it. If Denver's claims were objectively/universally (globally) and actually/really true, why does not the power of the Holy Ghost and the power of God confirm such to sincere seekers such as Finrock (and I would add, myself)? The answer I got, when I asked this at the time I was investigating him, was basically "you have to have the faith to jump ship (follow him and get re-baptized, leave the Church) first, then you'll get an answer" and similar leap-before-you-look (or jump off the cliff to see if you can fly) methods. Joseph Smith didn't do it this way. Missionaries present the Book of Mormon to sincere investigators that they can then read and pray and get a manifestation (Moroni 10:3-5). Why isn't reading/listening to Denver's words and then praying about it sufficient to draw forth an a divine answer to change directions so drastically? Particularly if the eternal consequences are so dire, as you guys keep putting it ("left behind", "too late", you won't be able to join the covenant Gentile group, etc.). It's a ridiculous double-bind.

Also, if some of Denver's teachings/precepts can be proven to be in error, are you willing to reconsider that his are not given by the power of the Holy Ghost?

Read Alma 32. you have to plant the seed and care for it. But you are saying show me a sign then I will believe. My prayers have been answered by the spirit through the scriptures.

Many people that read the Book of Mormon do not receive any answer or manifestation because they have not planted the seed. Go on the internet and see all the videos with other Christians talking about the darkness that overcomes them when they read the book.

[Seek the Truth]

Do you live in Utah.

[ajax]

Particularly if the eternal consequences are so dire,

Are the eternal consequences really that dire? If so, I hope it only applies to the feverish nutters on both sides.

And I'm guessing there are "humble followers of Christ" in all sects. Only God knows.

[Finrock]

I agree. Underdog, now all you are saying is that Denver's teachings/precepts are given by the power of the Holy Ghost while that of the LDS Prophets/Apostles are not. So you are essentially claiming that your discernment (and those in your/Denver's movement) is superior.

Furthermore, this question has not received a satisfactory answer, so I'll rephrase it. If Denver's claims were objectively/universally (globally) and actually/really true, why does not the power of the Holy Ghost and the power of God confirm such to sincere seekers such as Finrock (and I would add, myself)? The answer I got, when I asked this at the time I was investigating him, was basically "you have to have the faith to jump ship (follow him and get re-baptized, leave the Church) first, then you'll get an answer" and similar leap-before-you-look (or jump off the cliff to see if you can fly) methods. Joseph Smith didn't do it this way. Missionaries present the Book of Mormon to sincere investigators that they can then read and pray and get a manifestation (Moroni 10:3-5). Why isn't reading/listening to Denver's words and then praying about it sufficient to draw forth an a divine answer to change directions so drastically? Particularly if the eternal consequences are so dire, as you guys keep putting it ("left behind", "too late", you won't be able to join the covenant Gentile group, etc.). It's a ridiculous double-bind.

Also, if some of Denver's teachings/precepts can be proven to be in error, are you willing to reconsider that his are not given by the power of the Holy Ghost?

Read Alma 32. you have to plant the seed and care for it. But you are saying show me a sign then I will believe. My prayers have been answered by the spirit through the scriptures.

Jesef is not saying show me a sign then I will believe. Baptism is an outward sign of an inward change. Before one is physically baptized, they should already be filled with the Spirit of Christ and have manifested to the community of believers that they have repented and have accepted Christ in to their life. I know in the LDS Church many people get baptized without truly being converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ. These people get baptized for various reasons. Sure, in time some may develop a testimony and then be converted, but being baptized by water and taking the "leap" as you say doesn't guarantee that one will receive a witness or even that they will be baptized by fire and the Holy Ghost.

The truth is that saying that before you will get a witness of the truthfulness of Denver Snuffer you must first be re-baptized, is the same thing that is happening in the LDS Church in many instances, where people get baptized prior to receiving a witness or being converted. This tactic is often used to increase baptism statistics, but, as time has shown, these individuals don't stick around and they soon fall away and become inactive. Retention rates are abysmal LDS Church wide because of this practice. It shouldn't happen that way. If this principle or idea is wrong here, then the principle and idea is wrong there. Switching to the religion of Denver Snuffer doesn't change the fact that people should have a witness and should have demonstrated to the faith community that they have truly repented and have accepted Christ prior to taking the physical covenant of joining the community of believers and covenanting to uphold each other and take care of each other.

-Finrock

[Jesef]

Ajax, I agree with you - I don't believe the consequences of not following Denver are that dire - but he and many in the movement are saying that. It seems like a fear and imminence tactic to me.

Thanks, Finrock. Thomas, you continue to mis-understand/mis-represent my position when it comes to signs. All I have stated, clearly, is that Denver has demonstrated no visible power of any kind. I did not say my belief or willingness to believe was or would be based on this. But, obviously (without doubt), he is NOT like Enoch or Melchizedek (JST Genesis 14) or Moses or Elijah or Christ in this respect. Nothing of scriptural or mythological proportions, and he is claiming to be the Davidic Servant (and the one mighty and strong - through veiled references, not openly yet - here's my prediction, he will acknowledge that at some point - he's already given the foreshadowing for it). He does not sound or look like this, for example:

Helaman 16:4,23
4 For behold, Nephi was baptizing, and prophesying, and preaching, crying repentance unto the people, showing signs and wonders, working miracles among the people, that they might know that the Christ must shortly come—

3 Nephi 7:20,22
20 And the people saw it, and did witness of it, and were angry with him because of his power; and he did also do amany more miracles, in the sight of the people, in the name of Jesus.
22 And as many as had devils cast out from them, and were healed of their sicknesses and their infirmities, did truly manifest unto the people that they had been wrought upon by the Spirit of God, and had been healed; and they did show forth signs also and did do some miracles among the people.

3 Nephi 8:1
1 And now it came to pass that according to our record, and we know our record to be true, for behold, it was a just man who did keep the record—for he truly did many miracles in the name of Jesus; and there was not any man who could do a miracle in the name of Jesus save he were cleansed every whit from his iniquity—

All I'm saying is that if a person was expecting a powerful Latter-day, pre-Second-Advent, ZION-building prophet to come (like Enoch or Melchizedek or 3rd Nephi), these are the scriptural precedents and Denver does not fit the bill. He's just a bunch of books and word - too many words - every time. I understand how signs work. And God does use signs. You are hung up on calling me a sign-seeker, when in fact I am a sign-recognizer and sign-watcher (look/watch for the signs). I do not lack faith. You are mistaken. And, just to be clear, are you stating that you received an affirmative and definitive answer from God that Denver and his claims are true, Thomas? If so, please share how and in what manner?

I'm also saying that God would not expect a rational and faithful child to upend their life and potentially follow a false prophet before giving them a positive, definitive answer to prayer that that was the right and spiritually safe route to take - He is not a leap-before-you-look God. If He does not answer, does one still jump overboard? (I think not.)

[AI2.0]

Alaris, I appreciate your sharing and actually answering my question, from your perspective. I think you are wrong, though, about "every single time they received an answer" (meaning that applies universally) and that, if they didn't, it's somehow their fault. I understand why you believe this, but I think you are incorrect and making a huge extrapolation based on very limited evidence/experience.

drtanner, you are quite Socratic - you are answering questions with questions. That's fine, I'll just assume you can't describe your answer in real, actual, English words. It was unfathomable and indescribable (which would actually make it un-rememberable). I'm being a little sarcastic.

Underdog, I would still love to hear your story. And how you specifically and definitively arrived at a witness without doubt. Also, how you dissociated your answer about the Book of Mormon and Jesus Christ with the LDS Church. While, as you can see, many members like drtanner clearly and powerfully associate their answers directly in connection with the LDS Church, the Brethren, and the priesthood keys and authority claimed by the mainstream Church.

I may share my experience and more of my perspective at some point. The summary would be: after much experimentation - not with sin, but rather - with inspiration, revelation, the Spirit, etc., I believe many of our spiritual experiences do not mean universally what we might think they mean - but that we attach a lot the meaning to those spiritual experiences based on our context and biases and culture, very much influenced by our high-demand group/religion (Mormonism, whatever flavor - most of us LDS, some Snufferite or Remnant or whatever they call themselves, etc.). That most revelation is personal, not universal, and not extrapolatable to anyone/everyone else (i.e. it applies to every soul just as I feel it applies to me). That's the short answer. And I've had no shortage of spiritual experiences in my life, ranging from overwhelming spiritually powerful engulfment (consumed by the power of the Spirit and the Love of God), to visions/dreams and visitations in them, to out-of-body experiences and visitations.

But some of you just know that you know and you know what it all meant/means and there ain't no other way. Been there, done that - I was wrong.

Just because that was not enough for you, doesn't mean it isn't just right and perfectly sound for others. Often the simple faith of some believers is the most profound and is the means of daily miracles and evidence of God's hand in their lives. But would you even know that?

I think that's one reason for the warning by God to the 'learned' and those who think they are wise--for them, it's not enough and so they'll dismiss the faith and testimony of those who can't adequately explain their belief and how they 'know' in such a way as to appeal to those such as yourself.

Your response is condescending and it makes a boatload of assumptions about Jesef. Why? First, you assume that whatever experiences Jesef has had, regardless of what they were, were not "enough for him." You also lump in him with the "prideful and the learned" which God condemns. In this case implying that Jesef is one of those described in the scriptures as the wise and the learned who God "hates".

Translation: You just personally attacked Jesef, calling him prideful and lumping him in with those who are "wise and learned", or those who God condemns.

Not cool.

-Finrock

You misunderstood what I said to Jesef--I was referring to other people's experiences and the subtle ways they receive a witness that was 'not enough for him--as far as evidence goes', I was not referring to his own experiences because to be honest, I thought Jesef was a person who questioned all spiritual experiences and wanted to understand how people could claim to have received a witness. That's why I was surprised that Silver Pie said Jesef had seen Christ, that was new to me. I referred to the scripture where the Lord warns us of two groups who can stumble--'When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God..' and 'but to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God' (2 ne 9:28-29) I don't read condemnation in this counsel, The scriptures can be read as God condemning us or they can be read as his counsel, warnings and commands--which is how I perceive them.

With this latest post, I've come to a realization of why I try to avoid interacting with you, Finrock. You have an extremely low opinion of me and this influences how you view my posts. You see me as personally attacking Jesef when that was never my intent, but yet, I'm drawn into having to defend myself, which takes us off on a useless tangent. This is a constant pattern with you as you interact with me. I also find that your interactions with me always take the focus off the discussion and into an area where I am forced to go off topic and answer your accusations, which is distracting for others.

This is not why I come to the forum. If you think I am personally attacking Jesef, which is against the forum rules, then report my posts. Please let the moderators deal with me, as I'd rather not have to leave threads because you continue to take me to task on what you perceive as my 'attacks', name calling and condemnation of others. I'm certain that if they see my posts as violating forum rules, they'll do what's necessary to keep the forum civil.

Jesef, if you read condemnation and attacking in my posts, then I apologize. It was not my intent at all.

[ajax]

Ajax, I agree with you - I don't believe the consequences of not following Denver are that dire - but he and many in the movement are saying that. It seems like a fear and imminence tactic to me.

Both sides say the same. Anybody who thinks this way needs to go live on an island together and leave the rest of us alone.

[Jesef]

Nice quote from one of the Brethren!

Here's one from the dictionary: "self-righteous - convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others : narrow-mindedly moralistic."

Silver pie said that you claim to have seen the Savior. Is that true?

I think she jumped to that conclusion in response to my saying this a few posts earlier:

I may share my experience and more of my perspective at some point. The summary would be: after much experimentation - not with sin, but rather - with inspiration, revelation, the Spirit, etc., I believe many of our spiritual experiences do not mean universally what we might think they mean - but that we attach a lot the meaning to those spiritual experiences based on our context and biases and culture, very much influenced by our high-demand group/religion (Mormonism, whatever flavor - most of us LDS, some Snufferite or Remnant or whatever they call themselves, etc.). That most revelation is personal, not universal, and not extrapolatable to anyone/everyone else (i.e. it applies to every soul just as I feel it applies to me). That's the short answer. And I've had no shortage of spiritual experiences in my life, ranging from overwhelming spiritually powerful engulfment (consumed by the power of the Spirit and the Love of God), to visions/dreams and visitations in them, to out-of-body experiences and visitations.

[Jesef]

AI2.0, your response to me did come off sort of like an attack/rebuke - try reading it with name inserted - it's quite personal and directed specifically at me:

Just because that was not enough for you/Jesef, doesn't mean it isn't just right and perfectly sound for others. Often the simple faith of some believers is the most profound and is the means of daily miracles and evidence of God's hand in their lives. But would you/Jesef even know that? (very condescending sounding, btw)

I think that's one reason for the warning by God to the 'learned' and those who think they are wise--for them, it's not enough and so they'll (implied "you"/Jesef here) dismiss the faith and testimony of those who can't adequately explain their belief and how they 'know' in such a way as to appeal to those such as yourself/Jesef.

I'm not offended, though. No harm done. Please don't take offense to me either, none intended. This is a healthy debate on some topics that are obviously important and close to the chest for all of us. It's also a legitimate challenge against at least a portion of my position, about knowing versus believing. But I do think you're missing part of my point. I'm perfectly okay with people who simply believe certain things, with little or no evidence. I'm challenging all the folks who upgrade that belief to saying they "know" (without doubt, or know that they know) and yet their evidence is flimsy, and they've never bothered to examine the context and bias of their spiritual experiences/assurances.

[AI2.0]

Underdog, do you mind sharing, either on this thread publicly, or if not, privately to me in PM, how and in what manner you received, as you put it, "...personally have had spiritual experiences that have completely erased all doubt that the BoM is true, and Joseph was a true prophet, and Jesus is the Christ"? What was the experience(s), manifestation(s), how you sought it, how you received it, in what context? How did it erase all doubt? What did you feel, see, etc.? How do you know it specifically and definitively meant what you think it meant, etc.?

drtanner, btw, your answers to my similar questions were extremely unsatisfying and seemed quite condescending, to be honest. You basically said "I just know", the same way you know you love your children. That doesn't set apart your LDS testimony of the Brethren from anyone in the world, of any religion, claiming the same thing about theirs. My Uncle is a Baptist minister and he says he knows that he knows - and, btw, he describes his "being saved" experience in almost exactly the same terms that I've heard many Mormons describe their "baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost."

This is the most sacred experience I've had in my life. It was the promised baptism of fire, and is what Jesus refers to in 3 Nephi 11, when He says we must be baptized with water and fire. It is what Jesus refers to when He says to Nicodemus that you must be born of the water and of the Spirit. That's my understanding. I could be wrong.

Unlike many pretending GA's (who've not even had this type of experience I will describe) I will tell you I did not see God. I will tell you that shortly after baptism (within months), and after much sacrifice to be obedient to the Lord's commandments, and after much assault by Satan to deter me from continuing on the path of discipleship to Jesus Christ, and after many trials and tribulations (great sacrifice), and after regular and daily and serious study of the BoM, and at a key moment when Satan was attacking me by trying to get me to doubt the path I was on, I immersed myself in the BoM and felt peace return to my soul. I then knelt in prayer, and within that supplication to God said to Him, "I no longer doubt," at which time I was washed from head to toe by the Spirit. It entered the top of my head, and fairly quickly moved through my body and exited my toes. I said those words again, and the same experience occurred. I said the words a third time. Same result. I said the words a forth time, but the manifestation ended there.

I knelt there, on my knees, pondering what had happened. I didn't know. What I did know. What I did know was that I had encountered God's power. It was a powerful spiritual experience. Unmistakably spiritual. And unmistakable to my mind as coming from God. For I was praying to Him, and I was telling him "I no longer doubt." And at the very moment I uttered those words, the baptism of fire came, thrice.

I interpreted that manifestation as confirming that the path I was on was approved of God. After studying the Lectures of Faith recently, I see this is actually what the LoF teach is to happen. And one of the requirements for having true faith is to know that the course you're following in life has God's approval. That knowledge is obtained through sacrifice. I had made the sacrifice. What I had placed on the altar was accepted by God. So I had faith.

I went on to serve a mission (had to wait a year from my baptism) and have served in leadership pretty much ever since, being known widely as one of the most enthusiastic missionary-minded members around. I've gone on to read the BoM so many times you would be astounded, so I don't even want to share the number of times. I largely have the BoM memorized.

So any of you fellow brothers or sisters out there who think I'm "apostate" (for no reason other than I don't accept the anti Christ precept of man enshrined in OD 1 "the Lord will not permit me or any other man to lead this church astray) is utterly laughable and without merit.

Yes, it's true, that one side is deceived and the other not.

We both are sure that we are right. We both are willing to stake our eternal salvation on the line, so sure are we.

And yet, those who believe and accept the wicked tradition planted by Satan as a tare in our midst that the Brethren can't be utterly deceived and actively leading the general body of the Church astray today, those people (my good brothers and sisters here) refuse to concede this is absolutely heretical, anti Christ, Satanic "doctrine". All they have to do is concede this obvious "2+2=4" fact. In other words, the Brethren or the president of the Church CAN lead us astray.

The very fact that this pernicious "doctrine" is still in our canon and was ever admitted into our canon (secretly, back in 1981) is prima facie evidence of apostasy of the Brethren. The effect of adding this to our scriptures has been utterly catastrophic.

Nephi warns us,

Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 28:31

It's hidden in plain sight, but in verse 14 of 2 Nephi 28, it says in very plain language that the few humble followers of Christ will often be misled by the teachings of man.

They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

To believe that the Brethren categorically cannot lead us astray is idolatry. And it's utter foolishness when you consider the flip flopping on key doctrine like polygamy and priesthood ordination of blacks, to name just two. And it's a violation of the First of the Ten Commandments. And the Brethren by pretending to speak for the Lord (when they don't "know" Him) are violating the Second Commandment which says, "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain." Announcing that you speak FOR the Lord is what this means.

The Brethren's violation of this commandment is very serious. The Lord says He will not hold them guiltless!!!!! I would be very cautious if I were a GA. This is why Denver would be an utterly evil and devilish person because he does claim he speaks for the Lord on occasion. He understands the seriousness of the 2nd Commandment:

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

The Hebrew word for "vain" (שָׁוְא, or shav) means vanity. Other synonyms: deceit, deceitful, deception, emptiness, empty, false, false visions, falsehood, lies, vain, vanity, worthless.

Clearly the original meaning by the Lord as recorded by Moses is that one should be careful to not deceive people by presuming to speak for the Lord, which would be done out of vanity or pride. The Brethren not only do this in spades, but they have the audacity to say they can't lead you astray!!

Thank you for sharing your experience.

So can you clarify; It sounds like your baptism of fire came months after you were initially baptized into the CofJCofLDS and before you were introduced to the teachings of Denver Snuffer, and were baptized to his specifications--is that correct?