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Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 29th, 2017, 10:32 pm
by Doug
what i saw in what you wrote was an issue of hierarchy between Adam and Christ.
I did address that.
Where is your rebuttal.

Also, prayer is a personal thing, where do you get off demanding that anyone pray about anything.

Now, I also said that I had no interest in discussing Adam God but consented anyway
So, on Adam God, I am not here to learn or teach but will answer questions if posed.

I have repeatedly ask you to respond, you have not.
I did respond to the one issue I new of.
You have not rebutted that so I cannot respond anymore, I don't know what to respond to.

And if you really believe you have the right to demand I pray over anything,
I'm no longer even sure we belong to the same church.

So, I'll admit total ignorance concerning your issues, such that even looking at previous post does not clue me in.
So please, just tell me.
Again and again and again I have asked.
I am so ignorant that I have no idea why it is so hard for you to just re post.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 29th, 2017, 11:07 pm
by drtanner
I have a question. Let's say God is Adam and Adam is God, what does that knowledge change in terms of the process of our own salvation?

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 29th, 2017, 11:10 pm
by Alaris
drtanner wrote: July 29th, 2017, 11:07 pm I have a question. Let's say God is Adam and Adam is God, what does that knowledge change in terms of the process of our own salvation?
Super relevant:
“… A man is saved no faster than he gets knowledge, for if he does not get knowledge, he will be brought into captivity by some evil power in the other world, as evil spirits will have more knowledge, and consequently more power than many men who are on the earth. Hence it needs revelation to assist us, and give us knowledge of the things of God.” ~ Joseph Smith

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 29th, 2017, 11:40 pm
by Doug
drtanner wrote: July 29th, 2017, 11:07 pm I have a question. Let's say God is Adam and Adam is God, what does that knowledge change in terms of the process of our own salvation?
We grow from sphere to sphere.
Each sphere depending on the lessons from the previous
Each sphere preparing for the lessons of the next
We learn line upon line.
Each line depending on understanding of the previous.
Each line preparing for the understanding of the next.

Understanding the Doctrine of Eternal Lives is difficult without
understanding that Adam is God and what his relationship is
to the Savior of this world.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 29th, 2017, 11:53 pm
by freedomforall
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 10:07 pm
Doug wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:52 pm
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm
Not an ad hominem attack. I'm not accusing you of being fearful person but asking what's stopping you. I don't presume to know everything do you? Have we not both made assumptions in the past that turned out to be wrong?
It was an attack of a personal nature about things you have no kmowldge.
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm As for the evidences you never responded to the many scriptures I quoted about who Jehovah is who Michael is and what their relationship is. Most lds don't understand what Brigham Young was trying to teach but Adam God "Doctrine" certainly isn't it. If it were doctrine then it would have been canonized by the prophet Brigham Young if the Lord wanted it to be accepted as such. Still I have considered the Adam God doctrine sincerely with prayer.
I said I didn't see anything, If you feel I missed an important point, re post.
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm You claim I insulted you by asking what your are afraid of. Please allow me to rephrase.
Where did I say I was insulted?
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm What is stopping you from prayerfully considering what I've taken the time to share with you in this thread? I have no other object than your welfare. I do not seek contention or to prove myself right at someone elses expense. I have a unique understanding of the Adam God relationship that I've never heard any other LDS detail as I have. Even if you can only plant a tiny seed and see if it grows. Say a prayer. Reread my post with links and the scriptures that identify Jesus Christ as Jehovah. Then see if that seed grows. I invite you.
I told you exactly why I did not pray about it. And what you would need to do to change my mind.
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm Until you have done as I have asked we are not on equal footing as only one of us has studied both conflicting doctrines. Again I'm referring to specifically the model I shared of which there is full detail in my blog.
Again, If you feel I missed something, re post it.
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm Of course you may refuse again. However have you come here to teach and learn or just teach?
All I have not none done is not pray over something I saw no reason to pray over. Give me a reason.
You have said you disagree, I have no Idea what you disagree with, just tell me.
I have no Idea what specifically I've said that you think is wrong, tell me.
I have seen no better argument over Brigham's, If you have one, tell me.
The only thing I know of that we disagree on is the hierarchy between Adam and Jesus.
I have addressed that, but yow have offered no rebuttal. If you have one, tell me.
Oh please. Give me a break. You come here and create a new thread feigning interest in discussion when apparently all you want to do is contend. I gave you the benefit of the doubt after you carried on in contention with freedomforall. Then you claim your heart is shedding tears so I attempt to respectfully continue the conversation.

Now you can't click back a page because I must give you a good reason which I've done more than once and claim I'm attacking you when asking you what you are afraid of to read a different view with an open heart.

It seems you didn't come to listen after all despite your opening post being a bunch of questions. May I make that observation without being accused of ad hominem? If you are unwilling to listen to others why should others listen to you? I've shared with you... taking time away from my family to do so in good faith. A last prayer your way. Best of luck.
Hey, what have you guys learned so far? Looks like a deadlock occurred. I thought I was the only one losing ground. Go figure!
Brian showed interest in this discussion, er, argument, but neither side can get words in edgewise without getting caught in a checkmate.
What happens now?

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 12:01 am
by Doug
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm I have a unique understanding of the Adam God relationship that I've never heard any other LDS detail as I have.
If this is what this has been all about, I'll have none of it. I am not interested in any unique doctrine.
Lucifer Offered God something unique at the council in heaven, it was rejected.
Satan offered Adam something unique, "teachings of men mingled with scripture", I'll have none of that.
I want nothing new. I want something that is old as the universe and has stood the test of eternity.
If you expect me to pray over unique doctrine, I say "get thee behind me"

I am looking for true messengers from my father.
I have found true messengers from my father.
Their names are Joseph, Brigham, John, George, Wilford ...
I have read their true messages from my father and they delight my soul, intellect and spirit.

But if this is not it, tell me.
If these messengers are not true, tell me who is.
If these messages are not true, tell me what ones are.
If I have misunderstood their message, tell me how.
If I have misunderstood scripture, tell me how.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 12:06 am
by drtanner
Still not sure how this knowledge changes the process of our own salvation?

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 12:15 am
by Doug
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 12:25 pm
Doug wrote: July 29th, 2017, 5:01 am Brigham and others have said that Adam and Eve came to this earth with Celestial Bodies. And that while om this earth they ate the fruits of this earth. This caused a change in their bodies such that the finer substance in their bodies was replaced with blood. This changed allowed them to produce physical bodies instead of spirit bodies.

Jehovah, also known as Jesus Christ came to this earth with a spirit body. When Jehovah presented himself to the Brother of Jared he told him that he was seeing his spirit body. Jesus was sired by The Father who had a celestial body with Mary, having a mortal body as his mother. Jesus laid that body down and took it up again, now having a fully celestial body.

My question is, how is Adam, who has a Celestial body subordinate to Jehovah who has only a spirit body?
The scriptures show that Jesus did not consider himself to be perfect like the Father until after he took up his body.
Also, I have shown quote after quote, with references, that say Adam is The Father, Some even say He is the Father of Jesus' physical body. How do you get that Adam is subordinate to Jehovah/Jesus from those quotes? And where are the referenced quotes from a prophet of the restoration asserting that?

Given FFA's rant and your implication that both I and FFA were contentious, I've not said you're wrong, I'm just asking where your claims come from and how do you harmonize your claims with what Brigham Young has said.
Thanks Doug. I appreciate your friendly reply. I have additional evidences to answer your question:

First, with the model I have laid out, I absolutely agree that Adam and Eve laid down their celestial bodies. They weren't slapped in the garden of Eden because Adam and Eve volunteered or were chosen .... they were placed on a new world that they were in charge of and created because they EARNED their own world. I absolutely agree with Brigham Young that Adam and Eve walked into the garden of Eden with resurrected bodies, and when they fell they became mortal. If you read my blog, you'll see how I outline how each dispensation head epitomizes the example of how to overcome their respective level. But what did Adam do in mortality after falling? There's really not much of anything revealed that shows a "wow" example like all the other dispensation heads. I believe Adam epitomized the highest law given in the temple - the law of consecration - as he consecrated HIS world and HIS body and HIS celestial inheritance. I'm not sure why I capitalized HIS there. He gave up his resurrection so we may live. His fall was his example to us.

Second, when will Adam resurrect again? I don't know how many times a resurrection can occur where the body is laid down again, but if Brigham Young's quote is true, then it happens at least once. Do we have any evidence that Adam has been resurrected since his death? Joseph Smith only mentions hearing his voice to detect Satan.
D&C 128: 20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!
Granted, the voice of Peter, James, and John are also identified who laid hands upon Joseph, but do we have any quotes from Joseph Smith or scriptures that indicate Adam is resurrected? And if he is and laid down his body once, could he do so again?

If my model is correct, then could he go on to the next creation and become a son without resurrecting at the end of this creation? That also sounds very sacrificial to me. "I'll give up my resurrection for this creation and into the next until I achieve THE resurrection for an entire creation."

There are many mysteries yet to be uncovered about the resurrection ... so we cannot safely extrapolate based off resurrection alone:
Alma 40:3 Behold, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. But behold, my son, the resurrection is not yet. Now, I unfold unto you a mystery; nevertheless, there are many mysteries which are kept, that no one knoweth them save God himself. But I show unto you one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know—that is concerning the resurrection.
Joseph Smith hints that there is a ton of effort involved before attaining to the celestial resurrection whereupon we may sit in glory as Gods:
Joseph Smith: "You have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" ~ King Follet Sermon
What I just said certainly fits with what Joseph Smith said above.

Third, I know you and Adam-God believers say Jehovah is above Michael, because there's just way too much evidence that He is, so the only way to make Adam above Jesus is to make Jesus someone else.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Yahweh - The Great I AM. That's a big one, but I hope I have and will give you many evidences you haven't considered. Here's another: From the Old Testament to the Doctrine and Covenants, Michael is referred to as the chief prince - the chief archangel.
Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
D&C 27:11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days
D&C 78:6 Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life.
so Michael is under the counsel and direction of the Holy One. Who is the Holy One?
1 Nephi 19:13 And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.
14 And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations.
Who is the God of Israel? JEHOVAH

Michael is the seventh angel:
D&C 88:110 And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.
111 And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.
112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.
So all over the place we have Michael being named chief prince, archangel, over and over. He's even detailed as being subordinate to the Holy One.

Jesus is the King who rode a donkey
Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an donkey, and upon a colt the foal of an donkey.
This one ties in the Holy One of Israel who we know is Jesus (see 1 Nephi 19) and the King title:
Psalm 89:18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.
The King is the Lord of hosts:
Isaiah 6:5 ¶ Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.
Here is the title written upon Jesus Christ at His second coming:
Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
In case there is any doubt as to who the king is:
D&C 45: 52 Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.
53 And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king.
54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.
55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.
56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.
59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.
All the Michael / Adam references are prince. Jesus is the King. The King of Kings. What are princes but heirs to kingships? Jesus is above Michael. Pray with sincerity and you will have it confirmed to you my friend.
Is this what you want me to comment on?

If it is, I have responded to it in full in two posts
Postby Doug » Sat Jul 29, 2017 6:43 pm
Postby Doug » Sat Jul 29, 2017 7:34 pm

I understand that Christ is called the King of Kings
I also understand that Adam is called a Prince
I also understand that Princes are subordinate tho their King
But Christ is not the King that Adam is Prince to.
Adam is also known as Michael the Archangle.
What is an Archangle?
An angle is a resurrected being.
Arch is a prefix meaning Best example of or Head of
That makes Adam/Michael the best or head resurrected being
So Adam/Michael is resurrected and Christ is not resurrected until after the Atonement
There is no way Adam the head resurrected being is subordinate to Christ wiyh a spirit body.

Since you would not tell me what you wanted me to learn and accept, I can only assume this is it because I could not find anything else.
And I did address this before and have addressed it again.

If this is not what you were talking about, I have no idea what it could be so you will just have to tell me.

But I want you to remember what I said in
Postby Doug » Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:01 am

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 1:15 pm
by Doug
I would like to ask some question about The Doctrine of Eternal Lives. This doctrine is also known today as MMP or Multiple Mortal Probations. In Joseph's and Brigham's time is was known as PP Plural Probations. Now I know there are some who know about this doctrine and adamantly disagree with it. Thats Ok with me. It just means that this thread is not for you. I'm not wanting to have that debate here. If you want that debate, start another topic and if you want, I'll participate in it.
So, are there any that feel they understand MMP well enough to field some questions and/or participate in a discussion?
Also, If there are others that have questions, I, and hopefully others, will field them as best as can.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 1:23 pm
by Doug
For those lurking on this thread and interested in Adam God, I have gathered together most if not all the quotes I have used:
Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh, that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place as mine has, and where is the mystery?
Brigham Young 1852-08-15 I will now read a little in this book, called the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, pertaining to the subject we had before us last Sabbath. I will read a part of a short revelation, in order to exhibit some items of doctrine that are not generally understood, although it is before the people. All people who are disposed, have the privilege of reading this book for themselves; for it has been published to the world for some years. The Saints read it and have the privilege of understanding it, if they choose. Still, as I observed, we are in the school and keep learning, and we do not expect to cease learning while we live on earth; and when we pass through the veil, we expect still to continue to learn and increase our fund of information. That may appear a strange idea to some; but it is for the plain and simple reason that we are not capacitated to receive all knowledge at once. We must therefore receive a little here and a little there. [6:286:4]
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible… The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it. Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me... What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’ So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said. When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)
“My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacle as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming ‘great is the mystery of godliness,’ and tell nothing. 162 It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.” (JD 1: 50-52. Capitols in Original.)
A few more salient facts, which I shall not attempt at this moment to elaborate upon: Adam and Eve transgressed a law and were responsible for a change that came to all their posterity, that of mortality. Could it have been the different food which made the change? Somehow, the life giving element in our bodies, replaced the finer substance which coursed through their bodies before. They and we became mortal subject to illness, pains, and even the physical dissolution called death. But the spirit, which is supreme in the dual man, transcends the body. It does not decompose but proceeds to the spirit world for further experience, with the assurance that after sufficient preparation there, a reunion will take place where the spirit will be housed eternally in s remodeled body of flesh and bones. This time the union will never be dissolved, since there will be no blood to disintegraye and cause trouble. A finer substance will give life to the body and will render it immortal. The ensign p. 5?6; First Presidency Message; President Spencer w. Kimbal; Absolute Truth; Sept 1978
Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children. This is a key for you. The faithful will become Gods, even the sons of God; but this does not overthrow the idea that we have a father. Adam is my Father; (this I will explain to you at some future time;) but it does not prove that he is not my father, if I become a God: it does not prove that I have not a father.” (JD 6:274-275)
“One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God… [and] Our God and Father in heaven… When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! About whom holy men have written and spoken – He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do… I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone… Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the Garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told… Treasure up these things in your hearts.” (JD 1: 50-51, CAPITALS in the original.)
“I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve.” (Brigham Young Oct.8, 1854 General Conference Report, Church Archives. Also see, The Essential Brigham Young, pg. 99)
“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)
“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.” (The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)
“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.” (Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)
“Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true. Where was Michael in the creation of this earth? Did he have a mission to the earth? He did. Where was he? In the Grand Council, and performed the mission assigned him there. Now, if it should happen that we have to pay tribute to Father Adam, what a humiliating circumstance it would be! Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys, and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see the white locks of Father Adam. But those are ideas which do not concern us at present, although it is written in the Bible—‘This is eternal life, to know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’” (JD 5:331-332)

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 1:46 pm
by Alaris
Maybe you should rename the thread.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 5:23 pm
by Doug
alaris wrote: July 30th, 2017, 1:46 pm Maybe you should rename the thread.
Maybe you going to tell me what it is you really want.
You wouldn't take a minute to just re post so I tried to
figure out what you're talking about. So did I guess right
or not. If I guessed right, I had already responded and have
done so again. If I guessed wrong, tell me.

Why won't you just tell me.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 5:59 pm
by Alaris
Says the guy who named his thread mysteries of the kingdom when it was yet another Adam God "doctrine" bait and switch. I name my threads after the mysteries I want to discuss, and I say what I mean and mean what I say. If you wanted to know what I wanted you'd have read my threads. They're still there. Good luck to you sir.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 6:47 pm
by Doug
alaris wrote: July 30th, 2017, 5:59 pm Says the guy who named his thread mysteries of the kingdom when it was yet another Adam God "doctrine" bait and switch. I name my threads after the mysteries I want to discuss, and I say what I mean and mean what I say. If you wanted to know what I wanted you'd have read my threads. They're still there. Good luck to you sir.
The thread history is there for all to see, I've been open that adam God is not what I wanted to discuss, It is you and freedomforall that have pushed the Adam God discussion.

You and freedomforall have been the bullies. freedomforall first, and when he revealed what he really was and BrianM stepped in, he stepped back and you started up.

You've said that I have refused to pray about your post and I refuse to respond to your model.
I did respond, but you say I didn't.
Four times I've asked clarify and you have responded with personal attack but won't clarify.
The truth is that you are a bully with an agenda.
Doug wrote: July 30th, 2017, 12:01 am
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm I have a unique understanding of the Adam God relationship that I've never heard any other LDS detail as I have.
If this is what this has been all about, I'll have none of it. I am not interested in any unique doctrine.
Lucifer Offered God something unique at the council in heaven, it was rejected.
Satan offered Adam something unique, "teachings of men mingled with scripture", I'll have none of that.
I want nothing new. I want something that is old as the universe and has stood the test of eternity.
If you expect me to pray over unique doctrine, I say "get thee behind me"

I am looking for true messengers from my father.
I have found true messengers from my father.
Their names are Joseph, Brigham, John, George, Wilford ...
I have read their true messages from my father and they delight my soul, intellect and spirit.

But if this is not it, tell me.
If these messengers are not true, tell me who is.
If these messages are not true, tell me what ones are.
If I have misunderstood their message, tell me how.
If I have misunderstood scripture, tell me how.
I asked BrianM to intervene after the rant from freedomforall and he did. He said this topic was of interest to him.
so I assume he was monitoring this thread. But your bullying has continued. One can only guess why.

This thread has exposed you, alris and freedomforall for what you are, bullies with agendas.

I was told in private messages that something like this would be the outcome, I expect to be booted from the forum.

But remember, I have done nothing but support the teachings of the prophets of the restoration.
That is my strong Testimony, I repeat what they have told us.
Michael/Adam is God the Father.
Adam is the spirit father of all who come to this earth to get physical bodies.
Adam is Physical Ancestor of all who received a body on this earth.
Adam is the Physical Father of Jesus Christ
Adam Holds the Keys to the Presidency of this world
Adam will pass those keys to Jesus Christ at Adam Ondi Ohman
This world will become Christ's Celestial Home
Christ will redeem all who died on this world to become his spirit children
Christ will Take his Fathers place and be the Adam of the next "new world"
This is the way the atonement works, it allows the Savior of the each successive world
to redeem us, giving us all the opportunities needed to be tried in all things
and to overcome all things until we qualify to be the Savior of a world
and then the Father of a world.

This is what Joseph, Brigham, John, George, Wilford, et al have taught us
And It is my testimony that it is true, that these men are true messengers from the Father.

If any who monitor this thread are full of Grace and truth
you will reject the teachings of alaris and freedomforall
and embrace the teachings of the prophets of the restoration.
May all be so blessed.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 6:59 pm
by Alaris
The history is there to see the clear bait and switch and my "bullying." That may be the first time I have ever been accused of such. I can see you will just go on and on with the false accusations. Unlike you I won't go to the moderator as truth speaks for itself and doesn't require the silencing of others. Signing of, Doug. May God give you what's due.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 7:45 pm
by Doug
alaris wrote: July 30th, 2017, 6:59 pm The history is there to see the clear bait and switch and my "bullying." That may be the first time I have ever been accused of such. I can see you will just go on and on with the false accusations. Unlike you I won't go to the moderator as truth speaks for itself and doesn't require the silencing of others. Signing of, Doug. May God give you what's due.
Your own words testify against you!
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm I have a unique understanding of the Adam God relationship that I've never heard any other LDS detail as I have.
You attempt to place yourself above Joseph, Brigham, John, George, Wilford, ...

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 8:13 pm
by Doug
Doug wrote: July 30th, 2017, 7:45 pm
alaris wrote: July 30th, 2017, 6:59 pm The history is there to see the clear bait and switch and my "bullying." That may be the first time I have ever been accused of such. I can see you will just go on and on with the false accusations. Unlike you I won't go to the moderator as truth speaks for itself and doesn't require the silencing of others. Signing of, Doug. May God give you what's due.
Your own words testify against you!
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm I have a unique understanding of the Adam God relationship that I've never heard any other LDS detail as I have.
You attempt to place yourself above Joseph, Brigham, John, George, Wilford, ...
... and of your bullying.
alaris wrote: July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm Until you have done as I have asked we are not on equal footing as only one of us has studied both conflicting doctrines. Again I'm referring to specifically the model I shared of which there is full detail in my blog.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 8:47 pm
by Doug
And the first mention of Adam God was
by freedomforall » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:13 pm

I was talking about Eternal Lives, I guess you would say that is the bait,
but it was freedomforall that made the switch.

Assertions without prof can be dismissed without prof.

But much more effective with prof.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 30th, 2017, 11:39 pm
by Doug
Since this has been discussed, And I have been accused of ignoring the scriptures, I will call upon Ether, from his account in the scriptures, to help with this topic.
Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast. Seest thou that ye are created after mine own image? Yea, even all men were created in the beginning after mine own image.
16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.
First, we know who is speaking here because it tells us so, It is Jesus Christ.
He says he is the Father and the Son - the father because "they shall become my sons and my daughters".
They are not yet his children, that is to come.
He says he has a body of spirit - it is not a physical body.
Michael, the Archangel, being an angel, has a perfected physical body.
Michael, having a perfected physical body, is not subordinate to Christ, having only a spirit body.
In fact, Christ, having a spirit body is subordinate to Michael, having a perfected physical body.

But the scripture says that Jared and man were created by Christ in his own image?
If Christ was created in the image of God, and man was created in the image of God,
God and Christ, having the same image, man was created in the image of Christ.

Who did create them ...
D&C 93
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
So, back to who was in the Garden,
President – Elohiem – An exalted man with a perfected physical body
1st Counsler – Michael/Adam – An exaulted man with a perfected physical body – physical son of Elohim - who we pray to and call God
2nd Counsler – Yahovah/Jesus Christ – has a spirit body – first spirit son of Michael/Adam – to become Physical Son of Michael/Adam - the Savior of this world
Eve - one of Michael/Adam's exalted wives - has a perfected physical body.

Adam and Eve did not give up their perfected physical bodies for mortal bodies so that they could have mortal children.
What did happen is that they ate of the forbidden fruit (the dusts of this world) and the finer substance in their bodies was replaced with blood such that their offspring were born of the dusts of this world rather than the dusts of their celestialized home world.
And at the end of their sojourn on this world, they did not die, they simply return to their home world, ate of the dusts of that world replacing blood with a finer substance.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 31st, 2017, 2:38 pm
by Doug
Moses 6
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
This scripture says even though you have been born into the mortal world,
entry into the kingdom of heaven is through birth also, another birth
so how does the blood of Christ cleans us?

When Adam and Eve are on their Celestial home, eating the fruits of that world, they have a finer substance in their bodies, not blood.
And the offspring they produce is of the dusts of the that world, finer matter, their offspring have spirit bodies, not mortal bodies.
When Adam brought Eve to this earth, they were immortal, they ate of the fruits of this earth, a fallen earth,
the finer substance in their bodies was replaced with blood.
This made them subject to death but also allowed them to produce mortal offspring.
When Adam and Eve returned to their Celestial Home, they ate of the fruit of that world replacing the blood with a finer substance.
And thus returning full immortality.

When Christ took up the very same body he laid down, it had been purged of blood. Yet he lived.
He is now immortal, not subject to death. This is what allows him and his wives to provide offspring
with spirit bodies as ether 3:14 tells us. And with spirit bodies we can now reside with him in the kingdom of heaven. (see D&C 129)
And further, When Christ, now an Adam takes one of his wives, now an Eve, to the new world and eats of it's fruit, they produce
mortal offspring thus preparing the way for all his spirit children to be born again in mortality.

It is the loose of blood that allows us to be redeemed from hell and become the sons and daughters of Christ.
It is the returned blood that allows us another opportunity in mortality to make changes in our selfs to become less sinful.

And so, we repeat one generation of time after another, one Adam after another, one Christ after another
until we break the pattern, we live a sinless life, we take up the perfect body we laid down,
we have no need for rebirth because we have life unto ourselves, just as Christ did, so will we.

So, indeed, the blood of Christ does cleanse us.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 31st, 2017, 4:11 pm
by sandman45
One Eternal Round..

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 31st, 2017, 4:19 pm
by Doug
sandman45 wrote: July 31st, 2017, 4:11 pm One Eternal Round..
Yes, also called "A Generation of Time"

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 31st, 2017, 4:49 pm
by marc
Doug wrote: July 26th, 2017, 7:19 pm I'm just wondering what you think about the "Mysteries of the Kingdom"?
Should we seek to know them? If we should learn of them, why are they hidden?
Should we just leave them alone? After all, they are mysteries for a reason.
What do the scriptures say about the mysteries?
What do the prophets say about the mysteries?
What do you think about the mysteries?
Have you found any mysteries?
Are you seeking the mysteries?
Or are they for others to seek? If I needed to know them, God would have told me.

What do you think?
I agree with Joseph Smith:
I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness.--Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 364
They are no longer mysteries to you if you know what they are because God told you what they are.

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 31st, 2017, 5:05 pm
by Doug
There is a pattern that repeats over and over, the eternal round.
And there is a way to escape that pattern, live a sinless life.
So what are the details of that pattern.
What succession of events define it.

Scriptures mark the beginning and ending of that pattern
D&C 93
38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.
and
Ether 3
14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
These actually describe the same events, but with different "Fathers".
My combining the descriptions of the event from both we get:

Man was not innocent due to a previous sinful life
man is not in the kingdom of god
God, Father, redeems us
we are now innocent of all past sin
we are in an infant state
we are the sons and daughters of God - we have spirit bodies.


other events we know about:
Council in Heaven
Physical Birth
Physical Death

2 Nephi 2 says that all go to hell
Then this is where we were redeemed from
And in order to get out of hell, The Father gave us a spirit body.
So when did we lose that spirit body?
What other noteworthy events occur within this pattern?

What say ye?

Re: Mysteries of the Kingdom

Posted: July 31st, 2017, 5:10 pm
by Doug
marc wrote: July 31st, 2017, 4:49 pm
Doug wrote: July 26th, 2017, 7:19 pm I'm just wondering what you think about the "Mysteries of the Kingdom"?
Should we seek to know them? If we should learn of them, why are they hidden?
Should we just leave them alone? After all, they are mysteries for a reason.
What do the scriptures say about the mysteries?
What do the prophets say about the mysteries?
What do you think about the mysteries?
Have you found any mysteries?
Are you seeking the mysteries?
Or are they for others to seek? If I needed to know them, God would have told me.

What do you think?
I agree with Joseph Smith:
I advise all to go on to perfection, and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness.--Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 364
They are no longer mysteries to you if you know what they are because God told you what they are.
I agree with you, these things are not mysteries, they have been revealed through the restoration of the gospel by the prophets of the restoration. There should be no aversion to seeking them out, they are of God, they came from true messengers from the Father.
But to come to a knowledge of the mysteries , we must know all that has been revealed.