LDS Freedom Forum

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 2:57 am Thanks for sharing your passion Doug and FFA but contention only accomplishes the ends of the adversary.

If it weren't so late I'd post more, but the quote above about passing Jesus to Adam:

Just wait till you pass Joseph Smith; and after Joseph lets you pass
him, you will find Peter; and after you pass the Apostles and many of
the Prophets, you will find Abraham, and he will say, ‘I have the keys,
and except you do thus and so, you cannot pass;’ and after a while you
come to Jesus; and when you at length meet Father Adam, how strange it
will appear to your present notions. If we can pass Joseph and have him
say, ‘Here; you have been faithful, good boys; I hold the keys of this
dispensation; I will let you pass;’ then we shall be very glad to see
the white locks of Father Adam.

For the full reference see above.

Anyway, this is very interesting given what articles I've written in recent weeks about ascending the levels of mankind. The principle being taught above reinforces the union between dispensations and ascension. Each dispensation represents an ascension, beginning with the last dispensation and ending with the first. This quote taught me another layer. Jesus is the way and the path back to the father in this creation. Just as Jesus did what He saw the father do, Adam will do what he saw Jesus do. Sorry Doug but Jesus is above Adam. Only twisted pride reinforces the false idea that Adam is above Christ and the Holy Spirit of God testifies that Jesus Christ is above Adam in light and progression and seniority. I feel the holy ghost witness as I write it. Be sincerely open to being wrong & say a prayer before reading this next sentence:

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Lord and Michael is but one of millions of Adams who are all subordinate.

But what about the quote? Well how do Gods creations multiply?

Every Adam beneath Christ who succeeds will ascend to the level of God the Son. Jesus Christ will ascend to God the father. And we will follow our respective Adams who will then become Saviors and we will be the noble and great ones ascending to higher capacities ourselves.

And, so on the creations multiply infinitely. Eventually Adam will ascend to the level of father and guess what? He will be the only God and Father of which we will have anything to do. We will answer to him after having answered to the Lord Jesus Christ several creations earlier.

I really shouldn't be trying to explain this late at night.

except you do thus and so, you cannot pass

This is a reference to each level. I explain the levels in my blog:

lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com

This is why Jesus told Mary:

I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

If it seems the Master is talking about two different Gods here its because he is. As an older being from an earlier creation, the father of his spirit may have been a different father than he of Mary's.

Lastly, Michael obviously answers to Jesus Christ in the temple. To say Jehovah is someone else is the only way to make that work. Again listen to the spirit with sincerity:

Jehovah is the Lord Jesus Christ. Can you feel that? I promise I have considered the theory that Adam is above Jesus Christ with sincerity and prayer. There is no spirit there in that doctrine.

The Holy Ghost is conspicuously absent from the temple. If anyone is the Holy Ghost it's Michael. However read the baptismal covenants in Mosiah 18. Are those not the responsibilities of the Holy Ghost? Godhood is participatory even if you just look at God The Son. He was not perfect and did not receive of a fulness until after His resurrection. The noble and great ones all create the earth in Abraham 3. It's creation not an aspect of Godhood?

inho wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 4:51 am

freedomforall wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 2:47 am I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF

That certainly is the case. Adam-God is not taught in the church today. In my opinion this leaves us with three options:

• it is false
• it is true, or perhaps misunderstood, but not necessary for our salvation
• it is true and the church is in apostasy, since it has stopped teaching it

I do not believe in the last option. The second option could be true. But even if so, I don't feel like Adam-God is one of the Mysteries of the Kingdom we ought to seek to understand. So even if that option would be true, I would act like the first option was true.

Adam-God interest me only in a similar way than some other religions interest me. It is fascinating to learn what other people believe, but I have my own beliefs.

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 5:01 am Brigham and others have said that Adam and Eve came to this earth with Celestial Bodies. And that while om this earth they ate the fruits of this earth. This caused a change in their bodies such that the finer substance in their bodies was replaced with blood. This changed allowed them to produce physical bodies instead of spirit bodies.

Jehovah, also known as Jesus Christ came to this earth with a spirit body. When Jehovah presented himself to the Brother of Jared he told him that he was seeing his spirit body. Jesus was sired by The Father who had a celestial body with Mary, having a mortal body as his mother. Jesus laid that body down and took it up again, now having a fully celestial body.

My question is, how is Adam, who has a Celestial body subordinate to Jehovah who has only a spirit body?
The scriptures show that Jesus did not consider himself to be perfect like the Father until after he took up his body.
Also, I have shown quote after quote, with references, that say Adam is The Father, Some even say He is the Father of Jesus' physical body. How do you get that Adam is subordinate to Jehovah/Jesus from those quotes? And where are the referenced quotes from a prophet of the restoration asserting that?

Given FFA's rant and your implication that both I and FFA were contentious, I've not said you're wrong, I'm just asking where your claims come from and how do you harmonize your claims with what Brigham Young has said.

D&C 128: 20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets—the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

Alma 40:3 Behold, he bringeth to pass the resurrection of the dead. But behold, my son, the resurrection is not yet. Now, I unfold unto you a mystery; nevertheless, there are many mysteries which are kept, that no one knoweth them save God himself. But I show unto you one thing which I have inquired diligently of God that I might know—that is concerning the resurrection.

Joseph Smith: "You have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power" ~ King Follet Sermon

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

D&C 27:11 And also with Michael, or Adam, the father of all, the prince of all, the ancient of days

D&C 78:6 Who hath appointed Michael your prince, and established his feet, and set him upon high, and given unto him the keys of salvation under the counsel and direction of the Holy One, who is without beginning of days or end of life.

1 Nephi 19:13 And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.
14 And because they turn their hearts aside, saith the prophet, and have despised the Holy One of Israel, they shall wander in the flesh, and perish, and become a hiss and a byword, and be hated among all nations.

D&C 88:110 And so on, until the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.
111 And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.
112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an @#$, and upon a colt the foal of an @#$.

Psalm 89:18 For the Lord is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isaiah 6:5 ¶ Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

Revelation 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

D&C 45: 52 Then shall they know that I am the Lord; for I will say unto them: These wounds are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up. I am Jesus that was crucified. I am the Son of God.
53 And then shall they weep because of their iniquities; then shall they lament because they persecuted their king.
54 And then shall the heathen nations be redeemed, and they that knew no law shall have part in the first resurrection; and it shall be tolerable for them.
55 And Satan shall be bound, that he shall have no place in the hearts of the children of men.
56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived—verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.
59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 3:36 amEven after such outburst against me, I have no ill will towards you and harbor no offense toward you.
I pray that you will forsake your pride and ponder the majestic testimonies from Brigham Young
presented here for your edification. Even greater doctrines await your discovery. We all learn line upon line, please don't stumble on this line too long that your eternal progression is damned. So you think you can be my judge, huh? Typical words by all those engaged in teaching false doctrine. They think they know the heart and mind of everyone, so as to weaken the resolve of whomever they judge.

I am sincere when I say, my brother, I wish you nothing but the best. So please allow me the courtesy of bowing out without any more baiting.

Third, I know you and Adam-God believers say Jehovah is above Michael, because there's just way too much evidence that He is, so the only way to make Adam above Jesus is to make Jesus someone else.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 12:25 pmFirst, with the model I have laid out, I absolutely agree that Adam and Eve laid down their celestial bodies. They weren't slapped in the garden of Eden because Adam and Eve volunteered or were chosen .... they were placed on a new world that they were in charge of and created because they EARNED their own world. I absolutely agree with Brigham Young that Adam and Eve walked into the garden of Eden with resurrected bodies, and when they fell they became mortal.

freedomforall wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 1:02 pm

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 3:36 amEven after such outburst against me, I have no ill will towards you and harbor no offense toward you.
I pray that you will forsake your pride and ponder the majestic testimonies from Brigham Young
presented here for your edification. Even greater doctrines await your discovery. We all learn line upon line, please don't stumble on this line too long that your eternal progression is damned. So you think you can be my judge, huh? Typical words by all those engaged in teaching false doctrine. They think they know the heart and mind of everyone, so as to weaken the resolve of whomever they judge.

I am sincere when I say, my brother, I wish you nothing but the best. So please allow me the courtesy of bowing out without any more baiting.

Again, none of these so called statements by dead prophets in the JOD are anywhere near being canonized. Thus they are words only, not official doctrine. If you read some of the comments, there were many other church leaders that had no part in accepting such doctrine. But this truth seems to be ignored for a cause.

When words of prophets are not canonized, they are not doctrine for all members of the church to come to accept or believe. Only a hand full consider this doctrine as valid, nevertheless, it is not official doctrine. Doctrine that is not backed or corroborated by scripture is bogus no matter how much so called evidence is presented.

The four standard works "are" official church doctrine to be accepted by all members. If the Adam-God doctrine were true it would be in the same scriptures that Joseph had part in bringing forth, ie., Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, otherwise, why is the word "doctrine" in the title in the first place? If Joseph was found to be teaching other doctrine than written in the very books he brought forth this can become very problematic. And why you would believe un-cannonized words over scripture is beyond me.
.........................................................................................................................
How do I know this? I'll tell you right out of scripture itself:

Doctrine and Covenants 10:63-65
63 And this I do that I may establish my gospel, that there may not be so much contention; yea, Satan doth stir up the hearts of the people to contention concerning the points of my doctrine; and in these things they do err, for they do wrest the scriptures and do not understand them.

And:

Mormon 9:8
8 Behold I say unto you, he that denieth these things knoweth not the gospel of Christ; yea, he has not read the scriptures; if so, he does not understand them.
.........................................................................................................................
I get upset because I tried to back away from this discussion because it went the same way as with the other posters on this topic. They become agitated because some of us would not accept this doctrine, therefore, they came on stronger and stronger, attempting to prove a cause and not fact. Their whole life, their whole being is wrapped up in doctrine that is not official, nor can it be found in our official doctrine for all to read and learn. And this notion that people cannot accept such doctrine because it is so deep...is a very poor excuse. Look how many people don't even read or accept the doctrine already available, let alone live it.

Again, I get upset because even after I try to back away from this discussion, you keep baiting me...because you are on a mission, no less than the other posters that finally gave up. Look, if you want people to read your words and beliefs as a discussion, you will receive adverse responses, and you're going to have to accept this fact. It is foreign and way out there, and proponents of such doctrine do not like rejection. They seem to push ahead at any cost instead of hearing the words "no thank you." I've already engaged several people with this same discussion and it didn't go well.
You think you are right, and I'll give you that, but, please, let it be if someone says they're not interested. All that will occur is contention and strife.

Already you do not accept my strong testimony that that doctrine is useless to me, and that scripture, in no way corroborates it, therefore, it is a senseless endeavor to push it on others.
JWharton used to come here and say "just hear me out and listen to all that I know and then we can have an amiable discussion", when it really means "hear me out and then convert and then we can discuss things together in harmony."

The apple cart has been tipped so many times that I see a pattern, "accept what I know or there will be insults, innuendo, fault finding and name calling, coupled with you're being hateful, rude and haughty. People of this type of doctrine are hungry to get others to accept it, and unwilling to let it be if rejected. This has been the usual pattern.

I asked you a question about something JS said and you treated it very lightly as if there were no issue whatsoever. You said in so many words, who cares? If Joseph said it, it's no big deal.

It appears you are bent on spreading unsubstantiated doctrine and don't want to make allowance for rejection based on un-cannonized doctrine not for the general membership, having learned whatever they know and accept from official church doctrine, and have gained strong testimonies that proponents of this other doctrine don't mind stepping on for their cause.

freedomforall wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 1:38 pm

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 12:25 pmFirst, with the model I have laid out, I absolutely agree that Adam and Eve laid down their celestial bodies. They weren't slapped in the garden of Eden because Adam and Eve volunteered or were chosen .... they were placed on a new world that they were in charge of and created because they EARNED their own world. I absolutely agree with Brigham Young that Adam and Eve walked into the garden of Eden with resurrected bodies, and when they fell they became mortal.

Okay, here is a question for you, Alaris.

Please answer as to why in scripture we are told that once a body dies, then is resurrected, the body and spirit will never be separated again, in other words, they are fused together, never to be divided again.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Therefore it is impossible for Adam and Eve to have come to earth with an already resurrected, celestialized body because they could not be separated from their first body. This is one major reason this doctrine cannot be accepted. And scripture trumps words of past prophets that, perhaps took things into their own hands and declared otherwise. We must choose either God's words or man's, but God does not lie.

freedomforall wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 1:38 pm

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 12:25 pmFirst, with the model I have laid out, I absolutely agree that Adam and Eve laid down their celestial bodies. They weren't slapped in the garden of Eden because Adam and Eve volunteered or were chosen .... they were placed on a new world that they were in charge of and created because they EARNED their own world. I absolutely agree with Brigham Young that Adam and Eve walked into the garden of Eden with resurrected bodies, and when they fell they became mortal.

Okay, here is a question for you, Alaris.

Please answer as to why in scripture we are told that once a body dies, then is resurrected, the body and spirit will never be separated again, in other words, they are fused together, never to be divided again.

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the first death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

Therefore it is impossible for Adam and Eve to have come to earth with an already resurrected, celestialized body because they could not be separated from their first body. This is one major reason this doctrine cannot be accepted. And scripture trumps words of past prophets that, perhaps took things into their own hands and declared otherwise. We must choose either God's words or man's, but God does not lie.

freedomforall wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 2:47 am The ADAM-GOD DOCTRINE IS FALSE. NO ARGUMENT NEEDED. NO BAITING REQUIRED. NO AMOUNT OF INSULTS CAN OR WILL CHANGE MY TESTIMONY... I BELIEVE THIS DOCTRINE TO BE OTHER THAN ORTHODOX LDS BELIEF AND OF A FUNDAMENTALIST POINT OF VIEW.

freedomforall wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 2:47 amAPPARENTLY YOU LACK ENOUGH RESPECT FOR MY POSITION OF HAVING ENOUGH OF THIS TOPIC THAT NOW I FIGURE YOU ARE ONLY HERE TO GET FOLLOWERS, NOT TO ACTUALLY HEAR ARGUMENTS OF DIFFERENCE, FOR YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF CHANGING YOUR MIND WHATSOEVER, RATHER TO JAM JS AND BY DOWN OUR THROATS, ALL THE WHILE LETTING SCRIPTURE GATHER DUST ON YOUR SHELF.

“Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief. Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel. And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people.” (Ether 4:13-16)

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 4:52 pmBut when I present those teaching here they and I have been spurned. My heart aches.
I hold the words of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, George Q. Cannon, Wilford Woodruff, et al very dear, and if those words are not welcome here then this is not where I want to be. But if they are respected, if not cherished, an can be used for understanding, clarification and pondering then I am a willing participant. What say ye?

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 4:52 pm I started this thread because I have learned some things that I have some questions about. So I came here thinking that there might be someone who knows more than I, or someone in the same place I am to just talk with and exchange thoughts.

I believe that the Gospel, The Great Plan of Salvation, is reasonable. Meaning that it can be reasoned out with hints, help, and direction from those who know, the prophets of the restoration. While I was reading the King Follet Discourse, a particular statement caught my attention. I was move to know that it was the truth but I didn't know how it could be. It was through reasoning and pondering that understanding came about. My experience is that understanding comes through 99% work and 1% inspiration. And that inspiration is usually post confirmation but sometimes pre direction.

Wither I'm believed or not, the above is my only motivation for starting this discussion. However, what has transpired here has left me quite heartbroken, I'm in near tears as I write this.

“Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief. Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel. And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people.” (Ether 4:13-16)

My statements about Adam is God not being in the scriptures is in harmony with Ether. And as such, I have sought the teachings of those the Lord entrusted with great knowledge.

But when I present those teaching here they and I have been spurned. My heart aches.
I hold the words of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, George Q. Cannon, Wilford Woodruff, et al very dear,
and if those words are not welcome here then this is not where I want to be. But if they are respected, if not cherished, an can be used for understanding, clarification and pondering then I am a willing participant.

What say ye?

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873
How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in
regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which
God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father
Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him and
after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of
his wives with him, and she was called Eve, because she was the first
women upon this earth. Our Father Adam is the man who stands at the
gate and holds the keys to everlasting life and salvation to all his
children who have or who ever will come upon the earth..."well," says
one " Why was Adam called Adam"? He was the first man on earth, and
its framer and maker. He, with the help of his brethren brought it
into existence. Then he said, "I want my children who are in the
spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth
something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my
crown and exaltation. I have the privilege of extending my work, and
to its increase there will be no end. I want my children that were
born to me in the spirit world to come and take tabernacles of flesh,
that their spirits may have a house, a tabernacle or a dwelling place
as mine has, and where is the mystery?

38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 6:29 pm That first quote fits perfectly with what I've been trying to convey. Where do you conclude that Jesus is Adam's spirit child?

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible…
The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me...
What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’
So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said.
When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)

D&C 93:38 Every spirit of man was innocent in the beginning; and God having redeemed man from the fall, men became again, in their infant state, innocent before God.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 7:45 pm I hear your and understand you. The scriptures you've shared do not support the words you've shared, however I totally agree that some concepts have not been publicly given.

With humility I tell you I have considered the possibility of what you're sharing with study and prayer. Can you say the same of what I've shared.... Specifically what I've shared?

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873
How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 8:34 pm

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 7:45 pm I hear your and understand you. The scriptures you've shared do not support the words you've shared, however I totally agree that some concepts have not been publicly given.

With humility I tell you I have considered the possibility of what you're sharing with study and prayer. Can you say the same of what I've shared.... Specifically what I've shared?

With whom are you agreeing that some concepts have not been publicly given, I have not said that. I have only said that Adam God is not in the scriptures, everything else was given in public in speeches. And some even in the public news paper.

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873
How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in

I have studied pondered, and prayed countless hours over the words of the prophets of the restoration and what I believe what I have said is in harmony with them.

I have not prayed over your words, I have asked but not received any authoritative support for what you have said.
And you have not shown me in any way why I would believe what you have said over what Brigham and the scriptures have said. You have not even told me how I miss understand what I have presented. So why would I pray over it?

Assertions with no prof can be dismissed with no prof.

If you really think I am wrong, present a reasoned out argument with supporting evidence for me to consider.
I did that for you.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:01 pm

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 8:34 pm

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 7:45 pm I hear your and understand you. The scriptures you've shared do not support the words you've shared, however I totally agree that some concepts have not been publicly given.

With humility I tell you I have considered the possibility of what you're sharing with study and prayer. Can you say the same of what I've shared.... Specifically what I've shared?

With whom are you agreeing that some concepts have not been publicly given, I have not said that. I have only said that Adam God is not in the scriptures, everything else was given in public in speeches. And some even in the public news paper.

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873
How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in

I have studied pondered, and prayed countless hours over the words of the prophets of the restoration and what I believe what I have said is in harmony with them.

I have not prayed over your words, I have asked but not received any authoritative support for what you have said.
And you have not shown me in any way why I would believe what you have said over what Brigham and the scriptures have said. You have not even told me how I miss understand what I have presented. So why would I pray over it?

Assertions with no prof can be dismissed with no prof.

If you really think I am wrong, present a reasoned out argument with supporting evidence for me to consider.
I did that for you.

I have tried the spirit of your words, and you have not tried mine. I have shown you tons evidence, of what are you afraid dear brother? Try them and then let's continue this discussion.

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:16 pm

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:01 pm

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 8:34 pm

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 7:45 pm I hear your and understand you. The scriptures you've shared do not support the words you've shared, however I totally agree that some concepts have not been publicly given.

With humility I tell you I have considered the possibility of what you're sharing with study and prayer. Can you say the same of what I've shared.... Specifically what I've shared?

With whom are you agreeing that some concepts have not been publicly given, I have not said that. I have only said that Adam God is not in the scriptures, everything else was given in public in speeches. And some even in the public news paper.

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873
How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in

I have studied pondered, and prayed countless hours over the words of the prophets of the restoration and what I believe what I have said is in harmony with them.

I have not prayed over your words, I have asked but not received any authoritative support for what you have said.
And you have not shown me in any way why I would believe what you have said over what Brigham and the scriptures have said. You have not even told me how I miss understand what I have presented. So why would I pray over it?

Assertions with no prof can be dismissed with no prof.

If you really think I am wrong, present a reasoned out argument with supporting evidence for me to consider.
I did that for you.

I have tried the spirit of your words, and you have not tried mine. I have shown you tons evidence, of what are you afraid dear brother? Try them and then let's continue this discussion.

Just to let you know, it is offensive to make ad hominem attacks such as "of what are you afraid", I have made no statements expressing any fear and you are not in any position to judge such thing of me.

So now I'm confused, I read what you wrote and tailored my last responses to your points. But I saw no real corroborating statements from any authority supporting your claims. I must have missed them. If so, I'm sorry. Remind me, re post them.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm
Not an ad hominem attack. I'm not accusing you of being fearful person but asking what's stopping you. I don't presume to know everything do you? Have we not both made assumptions in the past that turned out to be wrong?

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm As for the evidences you never responded to the many scriptures I quoted about who Jehovah is who Michael is and what their relationship is. Most lds don't understand what Brigham Young was trying to teach but Adam God "Doctrine" certainly isn't it. If it were doctrine then it would have been canonized by the prophet Brigham Young if the Lord wanted it to be accepted as such. Still I have considered the Adam God doctrine sincerely with prayer.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm You claim I insulted you by asking what your are afraid of. Please allow me to rephrase.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm What is stopping you from prayerfully considering what I've taken the time to share with you in this thread? I have no other object than your welfare. I do not seek contention or to prove myself right at someone elses expense. I have a unique understanding of the Adam God relationship that I've never heard any other LDS detail as I have. Even if you can only plant a tiny seed and see if it grows. Say a prayer. Reread my post with links and the scriptures that identify Jesus Christ as Jehovah. Then see if that seed grows. I invite you.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm Until you have done as I have asked we are not on equal footing as only one of us has studied both conflicting doctrines. Again I'm referring to specifically the model I shared of which there is full detail in my blog.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm Of course you may refuse again. However have you come here to teach and learn or just teach?

Doug wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:52 pm

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm
Not an ad hominem attack. I'm not accusing you of being fearful person but asking what's stopping you. I don't presume to know everything do you? Have we not both made assumptions in the past that turned out to be wrong?

It was an attack of a personal nature about things you have no kmowldge.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm As for the evidences you never responded to the many scriptures I quoted about who Jehovah is who Michael is and what their relationship is. Most lds don't understand what Brigham Young was trying to teach but Adam God "Doctrine" certainly isn't it. If it were doctrine then it would have been canonized by the prophet Brigham Young if the Lord wanted it to be accepted as such. Still I have considered the Adam God doctrine sincerely with prayer.

I said I didn't see anything, If you feel I missed an important point, re post.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm You claim I insulted you by asking what your are afraid of. Please allow me to rephrase.

Where did I say I was insulted?

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm What is stopping you from prayerfully considering what I've taken the time to share with you in this thread? I have no other object than your welfare. I do not seek contention or to prove myself right at someone elses expense. I have a unique understanding of the Adam God relationship that I've never heard any other LDS detail as I have. Even if you can only plant a tiny seed and see if it grows. Say a prayer. Reread my post with links and the scriptures that identify Jesus Christ as Jehovah. Then see if that seed grows. I invite you.

I told you exactly why I did not pray about it. And what you would need to do to change my mind.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm Until you have done as I have asked we are not on equal footing as only one of us has studied both conflicting doctrines. Again I'm referring to specifically the model I shared of which there is full detail in my blog.

Again, If you feel I missed something, re post it.

alaris wrote: ↑July 29th, 2017, 9:31 pm Of course you may refuse again. However have you come here to teach and learn or just teach?

All I have not none done is not pray over something I saw no reason to pray over. Give me a reason.
You have said you disagree, I have no Idea what you disagree with, just tell me.
I have no Idea what specifically I've said that you think is wrong, tell me.
I have seen no better argument over Brigham's, If you have one, tell me.
The only thing I know of that we disagree on is the hierarchy between Adam and Jesus.
I have addressed that, but yow have offered no rebuttal. If you have one, tell me.