Mysteries of the Kingdom

[zionbuilder]

This isn't necessarily doctrine I take issue with, but my question would be: If you say (semantics here whether you say the prophets say) Adam is Christ, why could Eve not be Mary?

I think (note I haven't read most of this thread) he's saying that Adam was a Christ on a previous world. The Christ of this world will be Adam in his next world. I think that's what he's suggesting. I don't think he's saying Adam is Christ.

Then my question in reverse would be why can't the Mary of the old world, be the Eve of the current world? Different titles, same spirit/person

[shadow]

This isn't necessarily doctrine I take issue with, but my question would be: If you say (semantics here whether you say the prophets say) Adam is Christ, why could Eve not be Mary?

I think (note I haven't read most of this thread) he's saying that Adam was a Christ on a previous world. The Christ of this world will be Adam in his next world. I think that's what he's suggesting. I don't think he's saying Adam is Christ.

Then my question in reverse would be why can't the Mary of the old world, be the Eve of the current world? Different titles, same spirit/person

I'm not suggesting I believe Doug's interpretation (I don't) but I think I understand his belief so I'll answer your question-

I would think Mary could be the next Eve but Eve can't be Mary- thus still requiring 2 wives. Again, this isn't my belief but I think I understand the theory.

[Doug]

This isn't necessarily doctrine I take issue with, but my question would be: If you say (semantics here whether you say the prophets say) Adam is Christ, why could Eve not be Mary?

I think (note I haven't read most of this thread) he's saying that Adam was a Christ on a previous world. The Christ of this world will be Adam in his next world. I think that's what he's suggesting. I don't think he's saying Adam is Christ.

Then my question in reverse would be why can't the Mary of the old world, be the Eve of the current world? Different titles, same spirit/person

First, I promised referenced quotes

“Is there in the heaven of heavens a leader? Yes, and we cannot do without one and that being the case, whoever this is may be called God. Joseph said that Adam was our Father and God” (Brigham Young, Journal History, May 14, 1876, Church Archives)

I believe Mary, as all women, have a right to be an Eve, and will be. She will be the Eve of One of Adam's world as all of Adam's wives will be the mother of at least 1 world. (I have a quote on this but can't find it now)

Adams's great sacrifice was that he Performed the infinite sacrifice of the atonement in the world he saved and as such, he has life unto him self. Eve does not have life unto herself, she depends on Adam, her husband.

“Eve -- immortal Eve -- came down to earth to become the Mother of a race. How [does she] become the Mother of a world of mortals except by herself again becoming mortal? How become mortal only by transgressing the laws of immortality? How only by ‘eating of the forbidden fruit’ by partaking of the elements of a mortal earth, in which the seed of death was everywhere scattered?…
Eve, then, came down to be the Mother of a world. Glorious Mother, capable of dying at the very beginning to give life to her offspring, that through mortality the eternal life of the Gods might be given to her sons and daughters… Did woman hesitate a moment then? Did motherhood refuse the cup for her own sake, or did she with infinite love, take it and drink for her children's sake? The Mother had plunged down, from the pinnacle of her celestial throne, to earth, to taste of death that her children might have everlasting life… A Goddess came down from her mansions of glory to bring the spirits of her children down after her, in their myriads of branches and their hundreds of generations! She was again a mortal Mother now… Eve stands, then, first—the God-Mother…” (Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, pg. 197-200)

They do not die, Adam returns Eve to their Celestial Home thus restoring both to full immortality.
Do not think, in any way, that Eves role is less than Adams.
How can anyone think anything less of women when they, repeatedly, risk all by subjecting themselves to death to provide physical bodies for her spirit children, and having complete trust and faith that her husband will sustain her through this completely selfless act.
Maybe the Atonement is the easier path.

[Doug]

There is a very important issue explained in this quote, Adam and Eve DID NOT SIN.
They did not violate eternal law which would demand punishment.

“How become mortal only by transgressing the laws of immortality? How only by ‘eating of the forbidden fruit’ by partaking of the elements of a mortal earth, in which the seed of death was everywhere scattered?…

They broke the laws of immortality, which is - If you wish to remain immortal and do not wish to be subject to death, then don't partake of the forbidden fruit, the dusts of a fallen world.
There were indeed consequences, the consequences were that they were now able to bare children born of the dusts of this earth and needed to partake again of the fruits of eternal life to be again immortal.

[zionbuilder]

This isn't necessarily doctrine I take issue with, but my question would be: If you say (semantics here whether you say the prophets say) Adam is Christ, why could Eve not be Mary?

I think (note I haven't read most of this thread) he's saying that Adam was a Christ on a previous world. The Christ of this world will be Adam in his next world. I think that's what he's suggesting. I don't think he's saying Adam is Christ.

Then my question in reverse would be why can't the Mary (Christ's wife) of the old world, be the Eve of the current world? Different titles, same spirit/person

I'm not suggesting I believe Doug's interpretation (I don't) but I think I understand his belief so I'll answer your question-

I would think Mary could be the next Eve but Eve can't be Mary- thus still requiring 2 wives. Again, this isn't my belief but I think I understand the theory.

Adam 1 and Eve 1 descend to populate the earth, which includes the "Firstborn" which Adam 1 was in the old world.

Jesus 1 and Mary (his wife) 1 are physical descendants of above referenced Adam and Jesus 1 overcomes and claims those who belong to him, gaining/growing his exaltation.

The next world, Jesus 1 and Mary 1 come down and become/are Adam 2 and Eve 2 and start the process over.

Still just one wife as a juxtaposition

[Doug]

Also of note, the earth was fallen before Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they did not cause the earth to fall by eating the fruit.

[Doug]

There is no need to consider my interpretation of anything, in fact, I wish you do not believe anything I say because I say it.
What I wish is that you find out for yourselves.

Joseph Smith
“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret…We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible…
The scriptures inform us that Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the son power - to do what? Why what the Father did. The answer is obvious - in a manner to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it you do not believe the Bible. The scriptures say it, and I defy all the learning and wisdom and all the combined powers of earth and hell together to refute it.
Here, then, is eternal life - to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you, namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one; from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings, and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power. And, I want you to know that God, in the last days, while certain individuals are proclaiming his name, is not trifling with you or me...
What did Jesus Do? ‘Why I do the things I saw my father do when worlds came rolling into existence, my Father worked out His kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my father so that He may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, an it will exalt Him in glory, He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will take His place, and thereby become exalted myself.’
So that Jesus treads in the tracks of His father, and inherits what God did before; and God is thus glorified and exalted in the salvation and exaltation of all His children. It is plain beyond disputation, and you thus learn the First Principles of the Gospel, about which so much has been said.
When you climb up a ladder, you must begin at the bottom, and ascend step by step, until you arrive at the top…It is not all to be comprehended in this world; it will be a great work to learn our salvation and exaltation even beyond the grave.” (Excerpts from the King Follet Discourse, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345-348)
“And I, John, bear record that I beheld his glory, as the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth, even the Spirit of truth, which came and dwelt in the flesh, and dwelt among us. And I, John, saw that he received not of the fullness at the first, but received grace for grace; And he received not of the fullness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fullness; And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fullness at the first.” (D&C 93:11-14)

[shadow]

I think (note I haven't read most of this thread) he's saying that Adam was a Christ on a previous world. The Christ of this world will be Adam in his next world. I think that's what he's suggesting. I don't think he's saying Adam is Christ.

Then my question in reverse would be why can't the Mary (Christ's wife) of the old world, be the Eve of the current world? Different titles, same spirit/person

I'm not suggesting I believe Doug's interpretation (I don't) but I think I understand his belief so I'll answer your question-

I would think Mary could be the next Eve but Eve can't be Mary- thus still requiring 2 wives. Again, this isn't my belief but I think I understand the theory.

Adam 1 and Eve 1 descend to populate the earth, which includes the "Firstborn" which Adam 1 was in the old world.

Jesus 1 and Mary (his wife) 1 are physical descendants of above referenced Adam and Jesus 1 overcomes and claims those who belong to him, gaining/growing his exaltation.

The next world, Jesus 1 and Mary 1 come down and become/are Adam 2 and Eve 2 and start the process over.

Still just one wife as a juxtaposition

Except Adam 2 needs a Mary 1 to have a Christ child with. That's wife 2.

[Baysimove]

I think the Mysteries of Kingdom can found if we truly submit ourselves to God and have strong faith with Him.

[Doug]

You are probably right, but nothing presented on this thread so far qualifies as a mystery because it has all been revealed.
I don't know why God would reveal any mysteries to me if i'm ignoring what his true messangers have already revealed.
It seems to me that God and his messengers have gone to a tremendous amount of effert to reveal all of this to us, the least we could do is actually read it.

"The Teachings of The Doctrine of Eternal Lives" - google it.

[freedomforall]

What does the word "never" mean? Does it mean "maybe?" Does it mean "almost never?" Does it mean "sometimes?" Does it mean "only the elect?" Or does it mean "every other person?"

Alma 11:45
45 Now, behold, I have spoken unto you concerning the death of the mortal body, and also concerning the resurrection of the mortal body. I say unto you that this mortal body is raised to an immortal body, that is from death, even from the (first) death unto life, that they can die no more; their spirits uniting with their bodies, never to be divided; thus the whole becoming spiritual and immortal, that they can no more see corruption.

According to Alma 11:45 the idea of multiple Adam's and Christ's by anyone already resurrected and becoming immortal, their body and spirit being fused together...doesn't float no matter how it is sliced and diced.

[Doug]

“Eve -- immortal Eve -- came down to earth to become the Mother of a race. How [does she] become the Mother of a world of mortals except by herself again becoming mortal? How become mortal only by transgressing the laws of immortality? How only by ‘eating of the forbidden fruit’ by partaking of the elements of a mortal earth, in which the seed of death was everywhere scattered?…
Eve, then, came down to be the Mother of a world. Glorious Mother, capable of dying at the very beginning to give life to her offspring, that through mortality the eternal life of the Gods might be given to her sons and daughters… Did woman hesitate a moment then? Did motherhood refuse the cup for her own sake, or did she with infinite love, take it and drink for her children's sake? The Mother had plunged down, from the pinnacle of her celestial throne, to earth, to taste of death that her children might have everlasting life… A Goddess came down from her mansions of glory to bring the spirits of her children down after her, in their myriads of branches and their hundreds of generations! She was again a mortal Mother now… Eve stands, then, first—the God-Mother…” (Eliza R. Snow, Women of Mormondom, pg. 197-200)

Excerpts from a Sermon Delivered on 9 April 1852
“My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacle as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal.
Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed.
When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming ‘great is the mystery of godliness,’ and tell nothing.
It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.” (JD 1: 50-52. Capitols in Original.)

They seem to "float" it pretty well, Eliza, Joseph's wife, and Brigham.
Argue with them all you want for all the good it will do you.

[Doug]

I have said this before, if this doctrine is unacceptable to you, then go somewhere else.
But if you must come here to pick a fight, then properly arm yourself for that fight.
Go read what the prophets of the restoration have already said on this topic.
And then if you still want a fight, go fight with them, it is their doctrine, not mine.
I merely believe them to be true messengers from the Father.
I have great interest in what they have to say, I have no interest in what you say that is not in harmony with what they say.

[Doug]

A question to ponder;

D&C 76
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

When I read this, I feel great emotion, a huge lose, great sorrow.
And why such emotion? " he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning"

"a son of the morning" to what does this refer?

[sandman45]

A question to ponder;

D&C 76
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

When I read this, I feel great emotion, a huge lose, great sorrow.
And why such emotion? " he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning"

"a son of the morning" to what does this refer?

maybe has reference to resurrection or his Priesthood Authority

D&C 76: 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God

[sandman45]

thought I would share this in case you dont like what Brigham taught..

Richard G. Scott
“Brigham Young learned truth by carefully listening to Joseph Smith and striving to understand everything
that was taught by word, example, or the spirit. The resulting tutoring has blessed generations. It
conditioned Brigham Young to learn additional truths and to share far more than he had received
personally from Joseph Smith. Follow his example.” (Ensign, November 1993, pg. 81) "

[Doug]

A question to ponder;

D&C 76
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!

When I read this, I feel great emotion, a huge lose, great sorrow.
And why such emotion? " he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning"

"a son of the morning" to what does this refer?

maybe has reference to resurrection or his Priesthood Authority

D&C 76: 25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God

Yehp, He came forth in the first resurrection, He and Christ were resurrected beings. And us being their siblings, are also resurrected.

[Doug]

This isn't necessarily doctrine I take issue with, but my question would be: If you say (semantics here whether you say the prophets say) Adam is Christ, why could Eve not be Mary?

I think (note I haven't read most of this thread) he's saying that Adam was a Christ on a previous world. The Christ of this world will be Adam in his next world. I think that's what he's suggesting. I don't think he's saying Adam is Christ.

Then my question in reverse would be why can't the Mary of the old world, be the Eve of the current world? Different titles, same spirit/person

Because Mary is Adams wife. She will be an Eve, Fathers have more than one world, at least one per wife.

But the Succession of Eve were looking at here is more likely to be Mary Magdelene, or Martha. Both Christ's wives on this world.

[freedomforall]

They seem to "float" it pretty well, Eliza, Joseph's wife, and Brigham.
Argue with them all you want for all the good it will do you.

Argue all I want? I've already won, no matter what you say. The scriptures speak a much higher language than the few cherry picked stuff you find. So there is no argument to be had, period.
Whereas you're willing to pit different prophets against each other. Alma speaks plain enough for those willing to listen. Those totally ignoring scripture are taking their own risks. So don't worry about me doing any good, not in the least!

I construe that you will not consider scripture in saying "never" to mean "never", that that word doesn't mean never. Further it indicates that God has no idea of what he is saying, when pitted against only a few people, of whom, you rest your whole belief system on. I get it!
And now you want every person willing to listen, to accept such a spiel without questioning its truth source, it having many obvious, scriptural based flaws?

Do you suppose those people you rely on for such doctrine nabbed it right out of the air and then wrote about it? Did they ignore the very scripture Joseph Smith brought forth for our edification? Are the rest of us that know better, supposed to put away our scriptures and internalize this new doctrine that very few embrace, and call it official church doctrine?

As far as arguing with people you cling to so readily, I'll take scripture, anytime, and come out on top every time...because I'm not the one saying God is mistaken.

For some examples:

88:116
116 This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.

D&C 63:49
49 Yea, and blessed are the dead that die in the Lord, from henceforth, when the Lord shall come, and old things shall pass away, and all things become new, they shall rise from the dead and shall not die after, and shall receive an inheritance before the Lord, in the holy city.

This would include Adam, Eve and Christ, himself. They never die again anywhere, anytime.

Rev. 21:4
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:17
17 Their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of joy.

Alma 12:18 (18, 20)
18 Then, I say unto you, they shall be as though there had been no redemption made; for they cannot be redeemed according to God’s justice; and they cannot die, seeing there is no more corruption.
20 But there was one Antionah, who was a chief ruler among them, came forth and said unto him: What is this that thou hast said, that man should rise from the dead and be changed from this mortal to an immortal state, that the soul can never die?

Now before the word soul here trips you up, let me tell you what man's soul is:

Doctrine and Covenants 88:15
15 And the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

So the soul, the spirit and body of man will never be divided again so they can receive a fullness of joy.

Can't argue against facts...facts that God has revealed to us through his word.

[freedomforall]

I have said this before, if this doctrine is unacceptable to you, then go somewhere else. Ditto
But if you must come here to pick a fight, then properly arm yourself for that fight. I've got my scriptures handy.
Go read what the prophets of the restoration have already said on this topic. Read scripture
And then if you still want a fight, go fight with them, it is their doctrine, not mine. I teach God's doctrine, because it isn't mine either. Therefore, I had better be right in what I teach as to not insult him, right?
I merely believe them to be true messengers from the Father.
I have great interest in what they have to say, I have no interest in what you say that is not in harmony with what they say. This point is very clear. You still cannot trump scripture, however.

And unless Brian orders me to get my tail off of his forum, you have no say so where I post or its content. I told him I'll teach from the scriptures to the best of my ability and not back off unless he tells me to get lost. Because it is not you, he or anyone else I'm trying to impress, it is God...teaching his doctrine the way he intends it. I'm not the one attempting to insult God by coming up with a doctrine not heard by the general membership and intimating everyone else is off key. The scriptures contain many, many mysteries if one looks hard enough and are willing to be taught, let alone listen.

I am fully confident in calling upon God and asking:

2 Nephi 32:9
9 But behold, I say unto you that ye must pray always, and not faint; that ye must not perform any thing unto the Lord save in the first place ye shall pray unto the Father in the name of Christ, that he will consecrate thy performance unto thee, that thy performance may be for the welfare of thy soul.

[Doug]

freedomforall,
All you want to do is argue and contend and I'm not going to do that with you.
You are just closed mined and looking to fight.
So just go away.
There is a book of 368 pages that consist only of quotes from Josephs time to later prophets on this topic.
So stop hounding me and read the book.
But go away.
If you actually read something, even you would see how childish your behavior is, so go away.
If this doctrine is so offensive and I'm willing to do such evil as you say, why don't you just go away.
You proved your nature when your earlier blowup so just go away.
I've repeatedly said that this thread is not for anyone who finds this offensive, so go away.
And if you succeed in chasing everyone else away from this thread, go away.
But in that very un probable, in your mind, possibility that I might be right, read the book, but go away.

But even if you don't go away, I'm not going to contend with you.
If you refuse to accept the recorded teachings of the prophets of the restoration, that is your choice,
but I'm not going to Contend with you. I have provided quote after quote after quote all referenced.
But in condemning me you condemn the prophets who reveled them.

So just go away.
If if this topic goes silent as a result of your contentions, so be it, but I'll not contend with you.
You say that you require proof from the scriptures, yet you attempt entrapments using writings other that the scriptures.
So just go away.
I can provide complete proof of this doctrine, and I will to honest seekers of the truth, but not seekers of contention.
So just go away.

[Doug]

So, after the above, if there any still here and interested in this doctrine,
Here are some key scriptures to read.
Jeremiah 18
D&C 93
D&C 76
D&C 88
Ether 3
Matthew 5:48 vs 3 Nephi 12:48
D&C 93:38 vs Ether 3:14
2 Nephi 2
Alma 34
There have been others mentioned earlier on this thread.
Search them, there are some amazing jewels to be found
but you must search with a purpose and with the spirit.

However, the prophets of the restoration have reveled
these things in much plainer language and in much greater
details, So if you have no aversions to hearing the words
of true messengers from our Father, try Journal of Discourses,
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Joseph Smith's Teachings,
Wilford Woodruff Diary, etc.
Or you can find the teachings of these and more prophets
compiled together in the book mentioned earlier.

[Doug]

There has been much discussion on Adam God here. While it is not the intended topic,
it is foundational to understanding the Doctrine of Eternal Lives.
I have also found that the below is also foundational to the topic.
Take the time to read the referenced scriptures and understand
how they apply.

THE ATONEMENT Talk By Cleon Skousen
President Kimball introduced one subject in General Priesthood Meeting
that isn't generally discussed that I want to comment on because it's
the whole foundation of Easter that's never discussed. We just don't
talk about it, and we're the only people that know about it. And we've
almost lost it as a doctrine of the Church. So I was quite thrilled
when President Kimball introduced it. He said:
"I want everybody to understand that in this life we only have a very
limited amount of priesthood authority to function with. There are many
ordinances that as yet must be given to us in the next world. One of
them is the ordinance of resurrection. We're not allowed to perform
that ordinance here. It's an ordinance of the priesthood, we'll get it
over there.
Over in the next life we'll also have the ordinance of begetting spirit
children with spirit bodies and that's something that we have no power
or capacity to do here. Physical bodies, yes, but not spirit."
Then he got onto a theme that I'm sure may have sounded a little strange
to some ears. He said:
"You'll be able to have access to the intelligences in the universe and
organize them and make planets and organize kingdoms."
Now this is a beautiful doctrine that it's time we discussed a little
bit more because if we understand that principle, it will help us to
comprehend why there had to be an atonement. I don't know whether this
bothers you or not, but as I was a little boy sitting in Sunday School
and they talked about the terrible suffering of Jesus on the cross, I
would say to my Sunday School teacher, "Who wanted that? What was all
the suffering for? Everybody talks about all the suffering. What was
it for? Who was it to satisfy?" And my teacher said, "Well, it was to
satisfy Heavenly Father." And that didn't answer my childish questions
either. Seems like if Heavenly Father wanted us to come down on this
earth, after we'd repented, He'd just say, "Come back on up, you did the
best you could." What did we need all this suffering up there for?
When I (Cleon Skousen) went on my mission I asked James Widtsoe, my
mission president, all my childhood questions concerning all the
suffering of Jesus. Why all the pain? President Widtsoe said, "This is
the most profound question of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it
shouldn't be answered unless people are first capable of at least
wondering about it so they can hear the answer. The answer to this
question is what President Kimball was talking about in priesthood
meeting. He didn't associate it with the subject of the Atonement, but
it's the foundation of it."
The following are passages in the scriptures--the answers to the
questions of the pain of the atonement. If you look each one up you
will appreciate them much more than if you just say, "Now I know where."
Actually read each passage and you'll begin to see what a marvelous
ocean, an avalanche, a veritable waterfall of truth has poured out upon
the saints in the latter days, and some of it we've allowed to run off
without appreciating what it really represented. Now, first of all, is
II Nephi 2:14. This is what you'll read:
And now, my sons, I speak unto you these things for your profit and
learning; for there is a God, and He hath created all things, both the
heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are, both things to
act and things to be acted upon.
Father Lehi says that everything in the universe is made of two things.
This is where we get our "building blocks" concept--something to act and
something to be acted upon. Now the next reference is D&C 93:29.
The thing which acts is called "eternal intelligences". In the plural--
eternal intelligences! The next one is D&C 93:30.
These intelligences are independent and act voluntarily. They are not
compelled. The heavens wait on them until they obey. They don't do
anything until they are ready, just like us! And our Heavenly Father
built the whole universe with this element of action, this energy factor
in the universe is intelligence and it only operates as fast and in a
direction that it is willing to follow. Now Abraham 3:19.
These intelligences are graded from the lowest to the highest and the
highest is God's intelligence Himself. And we're in between. Some of
the intelligences are assigned to the elements, and some were assigned
to plant life and some were assigned to animals and those that were his
very special, superior, super deluxe intelligences were given bodies in
his image. And you are they. You are very, very, very special people.
Now Joseph Smith describes this in Documentary History of the Church
Vol. 4, p. 519. He says:
"And I explained to the Quorum of the Twelve and their wives the
doctrine of the eternal progression of intelligences."
Then he doesn't tell us what the explanation was. So you have to go to
Brigham Young, Parley P. Pratt and Heber C. Kimball and they tell what
was explained to them but they got the doctrine from him. Our next one
is D&C 93:33.
That which is acted upon is called "eternal element" (two blocks--act,
acted upon)--element, matter. Joseph Smith said that matter exists on
two dimensions-- the very refined element is called spirit. And the
more coarse element is called this temporal matter we've got here,
physical (D&C 131:7-8). It's all matter but it exists on two planes.
Like ice and water. They're the same thing but they're on different
dimensions. Everything is made up of a combination of intelligence and
matter. They are the building blocks of the universe. (Abraham
4:10,12,18; Helaman 12:8-9)
Now if you're interested in science, this will be very exciting
information. Our most advanced research scientists in the pure research
area have just proven this to be true. Matter does not function
mechanically. It has an element of finite intelligence in it, they say.
That's what Bergsen called it--the French philosopher. It can
distinguish, it can choose, it doesn't always do what the rules say.
Some of these little elements are just as ornery as you and me. They go
wandering around--and in the aggregate we say that that's the law of
chemistry. In the aggregate, yes, but you look at them individually and
they're fooling around. As a matter of fact, Robert Milligan said that
if all the elements were obeying all of the rules of chemistry, you
would never die. Through rebellion in the flesh. And they're called
seeds of death--you may have heard of that before. Now at God's
command, element which has received intelligence attached to it, at
God's command it will obey. You want a mountain to move? Talk to it.
"MOVE!" "YES, SIR." And they move when God commands it, or his
priesthood does it by his authorization. When God commands, these
intelligences obey, in the elements. That's Jacob 4:6; I Nephi 20:13.
Now listen to Brigham Young discussing this principle. There is life or
intelligence in all matter through the vast extent of all the
eternities. It is in the rock, in the sand, in water, air, the gases,
and in short, in every description and organization of matter whether it
be solid, liquid, or gaseous. Particle operating with particle. Now,
all of a sudden, we begin to catch the vision of the miracle of God's
creation. He goes up into the outer darkness of unorganized
intelligences and unorganized bits of element and combines them together
so that a little tiny bit of element has an intelligence attached to it
and now you can command it. They're combined in certain ways. The Lord
has given to all of them a pattern, which becomes the law by which they
operate. Some will accept electricity and some will resist it. Some
will combine with various things and you get a combination--2 parts
Hydrogen and 1 part Oxygen--and we call it water. That's because they
were organized in that way. They're so marvelously organized that you
can take one single little complex organization--it's called a cell--and
it's fertilized by another cell. And within 9 months because of the DNA
organization that is set up there by highly intelligent Heavenly Father,
that will grow into trillions of cells, called a human being. All by
design. You can almost stand in a worshipful feeling toward our
Heavenly Father as you realize what is possible in that organizational
structure. (Discourses of Brigham Young, p.368-369)
Now let me show you a miracle. See that hand? That is made of dirt!
You want to see a miracle in engineering and Godly power, it's in that
hand. That is made of dirt! And our Heavenly Father can speak to all
those little intelligences and He could turn them back into dirt that
fast. Or He can say to them--as to the hand of Moses--"My children,
halfway, not all the way, just halfway." Like leprosy, maybe? "Moses,
put your hand into your bosom." So he puts it in and the Lord says,
"Now, my children, Moses, take your hand out." Leprosy! Dripping,
incurable, on the way back to dirt. "Moses, put your hand back into
your bosom." Then the Lord says, "Now my children, as you
were--everybody back in your places. Take your hand out, Moses." Ah!
Beautiful, clean, strong, pink flesh. That's the miracle of God.
Children are a miracle. Everything around us is a miracle, and for the
first time we're beginning to understand. God speaks and they obey.
Things are made of that which acts and that which is acted upon, and
they've been identified for us by name and President Kimball said that
in the next world--that's where we have access to these intelligences to
organize our own great systems. Now, our Heavenly Father says, "Do you
know what makes me God?" You might want to put this down. The source
of God's power is D&C 29:36, Moses 4:1,4.
Here he talks about the source of his power--what makes him God. What
do you think it turns out to be? What makes a being suddenly or over
the process of time a God? MY HONOR is my power. My honor is my power.
So that when I speak and say, "water, reorganize into wine--a very high
grade of wine, please," there's no problem. They reorganize. We called
it a miracle. It was nothing in the world but obedient intelligences.
That's the doctrine.
Now keeping that in mind, that's D&C 29:36, what would happen if the
Father violated the confidence of those intelligences? What do you
think would happen? No church on the face of the earth has dared to
announce the doctrine contained in the Book of Alma, Chapter 42. No
church has dared to suggest that God could fall. And our Heavenly
Father says, "I want you to know that I walk the razor's edge of
Celestial Law continually in order to maintain the confidence and the
honor of all these who trust me because that's the source of my power."
This gives us a whole new understanding of our Heavenly Father. In Alma
42:13,22,25 he repeats it over and over again. And in Mormon 9:19 it is
repeated. If He were unjust, if He were arbitrary, if He were false in
any sense, He would what? CEASE TO BE GOD. Who dares to suggest that
anything could happen to challenge the power of the almighty Elohim,
chief of the Gods? Our Heavenly Father says, "I want you to understand
me. I work within very strict rules. I have to function so that I
enjoy their confidence and do not violate it." Now Alma 34:9.
The Father says, "Once I had put you down into the second estate, I lost
complete control over the possibility of bringing you back Myself." God
the Father cannot save us. These are doctrines of the church that we
seldom put in these dimensions. But this is the Easter story. This is
really the Easter story. In fact, it says there that if there had not
been some way to get us back to the presence of the Father, and it had
been left to the Father and He had been helpless to get us back, we
would have ended back in outer darkness with Satan and his hosts. We'd
have gone the same route they went. And everything that had been
organized by the Father in connection with us, our earth and the other
earths on which part of this family is located and all of the creations
connected with it, would have disintegrated and gone back to outer
darkness, disorganized, That's the scripture.
Now this takes all the magic out of creation. All of a sudden, we can
understand it, in our finite way. All of a sudden, our Heavenly Father
becomes much more rational, comprehensive, and our appreciation begins
to accelerate as we begin to realize what a remarkable, beautiful,
powerful personality He is. II Nephi 9:9 is where it says we would end
up with Satan and his angels were there no atonement. That it is
absolutely beyond the capacity of our Heavenly Father to lift children
who have stumbled while learning the difference between good and evil
back into His presence. Because He has to operate according to law and
all the other intelligences would say, "Father, now they have sinned and
come short of Thy glory. They cannot come back. Remember all the laws
that held us back? We didn't get to be those top people, we were graded
down. Remember? Remember laws? You kept talking about laws . . ."
These are they who demand justice and will not let us return. And
should God try it, as it says in Alma, they would cease to honor Him.
And He would cease to be God. That's the doctrine.
Then how do we do it? How do we do it? Alma 34:11. No person can
suffer for the sins of another person, that's the law. The law says no
person can suffer for the sins of another person. That's what these
little intelligences are saying--"that's the law." Now, you just stop
and think why that is so. If I commit a very serious offense could my
brother die for it and satisfy you people? Even though we love each
other and my brother says, "No, don't let him be killed, I'll die for
him." Do you think everyone would be happy about that? No, it would
violate your sense of justice. And it does all these little
intelligences. And Alma 34:11 says, "No person can die or be punished
for the sins of another person and have it acceptable as justice." See,
there's demands of justice. That's what these little intelligences are
doing. "There's an offense there, they cannot come back, Father."
Everybody see the problem?
Now, the genius of the solution. The Gods know that these little
intelligences have a capacity for compassion. Compassion--just like you
and me. Intelligences have a capacity for compassion. Therefore, the
atonement is based not on law, but mercy. That's Alma 34:15. In other
words, we're going to try and get to these little intelligences in some
way so that we can overcome the demands of justice. With what?
Sympathy, mercy--so that we'll actually overcome the demands of justice.
That's Alma 34:15.
Now, once the families of Gods--and they must have worked this out eons
and eons ago with other families, so this is a pattern. Remember when
they were selecting the Savior? Jesus volunteered, but Satan said, "You
know, Father, this is very old fashioned, this just isn't necessary. We
can satisfy the intelligences of the universe. Just put our children in
straight jackets and get them through the second estate . . . it's a
great idea, I thought of it. I really would like to get credit for it
because I'm offering the whole family, the whole human family,
insurance. All I'm asking you to do is to give up the hang-up that the
family has always had on this free agency thing. It's only for this
little bit of time. We'll put them in a straight jacket, get them
through the second estate-- no body can object to them then. We've
taken them down, they've got bodies, we've prevented them from violating
any laws . . . bring them back . . . it's that simple."
"No!" the father said, "it isn't that simple." Apparently implying that
if you introduce compulsion into our eternal plan of salvation, or into
the cosmic universe, you put coercion there. Anyway, your sowing the
seeds of what? . . . Revolution, disintegration. Everything we have
out there is moving as it is willing to move. You don't get revolution
that way.
Then Satan says, "I'll start a revolution." And he does. I wouldn't be
a bit surprised if the real followers of the Father there, for a while,
were a minority. And we had a big uncommitted, in the middle, majority.
Jesus said, "Father, I'll do it your way--I'll do it the way they've
always had to do it. We do have casualties, true--but, at least we
maintain a voluntary participation that you've always done in the past.
And I know someone has to suffer in order to have that atonement, and
create that sense of compassion, but I'll do it." And so we had a big
argument, and the revelation says that the war in heaven was a testimony
meeting.
As we said one to another, "The Father's way is the right way. Now you
don't want to introduce compulsion. If you start compulsion, who says
where it could end? Lucifer's trying to steal the throne of our
Heavenly Father and he wants the glory for it and there's nothing in
that direction but rebellion and destruction." We finally got 2/3's on
our side. I won't be surprised when we see this in the vision if we
only had a minority to begin with. But we finally got 2/3's. And the
other 1/3 went for no-risk insurance. They wouldn't take a chance with
us.
All right, now, how does this atonement work? Watch how the principle
functions. Now you're an intelligence. You are capable of being
subjected to so much sympathy and compassion, you've stopped asking for
every pound of flesh that the law permits. Ever notice that in
yourself? It works--first the principle. They must have a person who
is infinite as it says in Alma 34--one who is infinitely loved.
Infinite means completely--everybody recognizes this. So we take a
spirit who is so superior He's first counselor in the first presidency
of heaven. He's so honored that when the Father wants something done He
speaks to this person and he tells all the intelligences what to do.
And He's identified as the Word. He's the one through whom the word
passes. He's loved and respected by all, just like the Father. So we
use him. He is infinitely loved. And we have Him come down into the
second estate and live a perfect life without offense so that He can
return to the Father and incidental thereto while laboring among the
human family, we have Him suffer so terribly that the little
intelligences of the entire universe are revolted. It's abhorrent--the
suffering that He went through. They loved Him. As it says in the Book
of Mormon, even the elements of the earth couldn't stand it, and churned
back and forth until the whole face of the land northward was different
than before. The very elements were crying out against this terrible
torture of someone that they loved. And all this was by design. That's
the mission of Jesus Christ. You must suffer so much that those little
intelligences, when you come and plead on behalf of someone who did the
best that he could, which is called repentance--they'll say, "Well, they
really shouldn't go back, but if you want them, after all you went
through for them . . . yes, they can go up." That's the atonement.
And so listen to Alma 34 as we hear the prophets who use to understand
and preach this doctrine extensively, which we've kind of stopped
preaching among ourselves. Listen to this statement here. Alma 34:15.
"And thus He shall bring salvation to all those who shall believe on His
name. This being the intent of this last sacrifice--to bring about the
bowels of mercy." Whose mercy? The bowels of mercy . . . whose mercy?
Our Heavenly Father already has mercy toward us. This is His plan. We
don't have to create that in Him. We have to create it in those that
are demanding justice. "Father, they've sinned--come short of the glory
of God." There's where you must arouse the bowels of mercy, which
overpower justice, being the demands of justice. "And brings about the
means unto men that they may have faith unto repentance. And thus mercy
can satisfy the demands of justice. And encircles them in the arms of
safety. While he that exerciseth not faith unto repentance is exposed
to the whole law of the demands of justice. Therefore, only unto them
that hath faith unto repentance is brought about the great and eternal
plan of redemption."
Now let's turn to D&C 45 and listen to the Savior telling about it.
Verse 3--listen to Him who is the advocate with your Father--who is
pleading your cause before him saying, "Father, behold the suffering and
death of Him who did no sin. In whom thou wast well pleased. Behold
the blood of thy Son, which was shed. The blood of Him who thou prayest
that Thyself may be glorified, Wherefore, Father, spare these my
brethren"--see how He does that? "Spare these my brethren that believe
on my name." He doesn't plead for those who don't believe, He
can't--He's not allowed to--it would rob justice. "Spare these that
believe on my name, that they may come to me and have everlasting life."
And the Father can do it without ceasing to be God.Because of what?
Mercy! Let me give you an example of how that works. During the Civil
War there was a 19 year old soldier who went to sleep on guard duty. A
whole section of the Union army was wiped out in that particular sector.
He lost many of his very best friends all because he went to sleep and
they were able to make a surprise attack on one flank of that particular
defense effort. He survived the battle. He was court-martialed and
sentenced to be hanged for neglect of duty for going to sleep while
servicing as a guard, which was routine military law. The death
sentence and order of execution was placed on the desk of President
Lincoln and he was prepared to sign it. We lost a lot of valuable men
because a 19 year old soldier went to sleep. President Lincoln was
communicated with by a little old woman. This mother said to President
Lincoln, "When this war started, I had a husband and 6 sons. First I
lost my husband, then I lost my sons--5 of them. I just have one son
left. And he's about to be executed for neglect of duty. He feels
terrible about what he did. He knows he deserves to die. President
Lincoln, I wonder if, maybe, because you have the pardoning power under
the constitution, you could find it in your heart to let me have the
last of my family--for my sake?" President Lincoln said to the mother,
"For your sake, I pardon your son. I pray God he'll survive the war and
be a blessing to you all the days of your life." See how compassion
works? We completely overcame the demands of justice. And nobody
criticized President Lincoln for using his pardoning power in that case
once they found out what the plea of that little mother had been. And
that's the way all of us are.
I just pause at this moment to ask the question, "What do you think an
intelligence is?" What is an intelligence? Well, we don't know. It's
a wonderful, self-knowing, eternal little entity that says, "I am." You
see me up her, but what you're really seeing isn't me--this is mine.
And the little "I am" that always existed--I can locate him pretty well.
I touch my chin, and that's outside and below me. Shut your eyes and
touch your right ear-- is that you? Or is that to the right of you?
Notice that? Put your hand on the top of your head. Is that you or is
that above you? Isn't that interesting? Put your fingers out here--is
that you or is that way, way, way out from you? You see, "I am" is
right in there--that's the seat of power. Want to know what an
intelligence is? That's it, that's you! And you're one of the very
advanced intelligences. You're so advanced that one of our brothers on
this level thought that he was as smart as the Father, and tried to take
over the Father's kingdom. Those other little intelligences wouldn't
have thought of that. But the Father's elevated far beyond us. I tell
you, this is an exciting place to be, and it took eons to bring us here
and everyone is so precious. Our Heavenly Father says, "If you see one
of them trying, then backsliding, then he tries, keeps backsliding, you
work with him if you have to forgive him 70 x 7 -- as long as he's
trying--keep in there, push him--we might make it eventually--maybe
we've got an Alma in the making. Who knows?"
Toward the evening they went to the last supper. They partook of the
passover lamb. And he looked out over his 12 apostles and He said, "One
of you will betray me." Peter says to John, "You're closest. You ask
Him, who?" And John the Beloved said, "Master, who?" The Savior
whispered, "He to whom I give the sop." And He picked up a piece of
bread, dipped it in the gravy, handed it to Judas Iscariot and said,
"Judas, whatsoever thou doest, do thou quickly." Judas got up and went
out. I wonder if he suspected that maybe Jesus suspected. We don't
know. We don't think so. He'd already received the 30 pieces of
silver--he'd already approved to betray the Christ. He went out. He
went to see the elders of the city. Now it says that Jesus became very
depressed. And then rose up and he gave that beautiful high priest
prayer found in John, Chapter 17, where he pleads with the Father to,
"Bless these, that they may be one as thou, Father, art in me and I in
Thee-- That they also may be one in us." And He says, "Bless those who
shall believe on their words, who have not seen--that they also may be
one, that we all may be one. I pray not for the world, but for those
that thou hast given me out of the world. That they may be one." And
in the greatest of anguish and suffering He pleaded with that prayer.
Now, He said, "Let us be gone. I need to pray." And so they went from
the part of the city where the poor people lived--we think that's where
it really was--across the temple square, out through the golden gate on
the eastern side, down through the brook Cidron, and up unto the top of
the Mount of Olives. It was dark now, and as He came in, He told eight
of his disciples to stay by the gate. He took Peter, James and John and
went into the grove. Then He had them watch, and He went further up the
hillside into the grove, and apparently only John stayed awake. And
John heard Him fall full-length on the ground and said, "O Father, all
things are possible unto thee. Take this cup from me. Nevertheless,
not my will, but Thy will be done." What He's saying is, "Father, You
are God. You're all powerful--all things are possible unto Thee--don't
make me go through this. We can work it out some other way." And that
angel that came to minister unto Jesus, undoubtedly, explained to Him
something He'd forgotten--He's forgotten His preexistence. He was born
to suffer and die. What the angel must have said, and undoubtedly did,
though we don't have the message--but I won't be surprised if it was
something like this, "O Jehovah, Thou Son of God--You do not have to do
this, unless you wish. But you should know that unless you fulfill this
assignment, the Father will lose not only this family, this whole
family, but the entire creation associated with them. The planets, the
plants, the animals, everything that you used your hands to create, will
be lost to the Father and go back to the chaos of outer darkness from
which it came."
Because when the angel had finished ministering to Him, He said, "Then
Thy will be done." And He sweat drops of blood. The channels of His
lifestream couldn't even contain the fluid of life and it spilled out
into the sweat glands and poured out on His skin as it were great drops
of blood. The agony of that moment. Now you and I couldn't have
endured that--we don't have any idea how terrible that was. But Jesus
has given us some idea of what it was like in the 19th Section of The
Doctrine and Covenants, in which He says, verse 15, "Therefore, I
command you to repent. Repent lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth
and by my wrath and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore. How sore
you know not--how exquisite you know not. How hard to bear you know
not. For behold, I, God have suffered these things for all, that they
might not suffer if they would repent. But if they would not repent,
they must suffer even as I, which suffering caused myself, even God, the
greatest of all, to tremble with pain and to bleed at every pore, and
suffer both body and spirit and would that I might not drink the bitter
cup and shrink. Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and
finished my preparation unto the children of men." "Now will you accept
it? Will you let me blot them out? I can, if you'll be obedient
through repentance, the spirit will justify you, and I will sanctify
you. I've done it for you. Come unto me." After that, Judas came with
the soldiers, and Jesus heard them coming--He came back and here were
His apostles sound asleep. We don't know what else happened-- John
didn't stay awake. He was tired. Judas came up to Him. It was night--
they had torches--they'd seen Jesus in the temple square but it was
night time and they wanted to be sure and get the right one because the
others will all flee as soon as they grab somebody. And so Judas came
up to Him, Took Jesus in his arms and said, "Hail, Master." And the
Savior looked down at him and said, "Judas, betrayest thou the Son of
Man with a kiss?" The soldiers screamed, "Seize him! Seize him!" And
everybody fled. Then the Savior was taken up to the house of Ananias
and we all remember the terrible night that He spent. We remember the
three denials by Peter--he was petrified--Peter will never forgive
himself for these three denials. The next morning there was an illegal
trial before the Sanhedrin. They can't kill Jesus without the consent
of Pilate, so they take Him into the Antonian, named after Mark Antony
and this was a big fortress that's part of the temple square, and right
in the open square they brought in Jesus and turned Him over to Pilate.
Pilate tried to create sympathy in their hearts by flogging Him and
putting a crown of thorns on His head and blood running down His face,
His robe is just saturated with blood and they bring Him out and say in
Latin, "Behold! Behold the man!" And they scream, "Crucify Him!
Crucify Him! That's not enough." "Bring me water--see ye to it--I wash
my hands of this judgment."
"Crucify Him!" And so they took Him with the cross--carried it as long
as His broken body could endure the pain and finally they took Him up to
the place of the skull and there they nailed Him to the cross and swung
it into position. Two thieves were crucified on either side. The earth
trembled and the sky grew black at noon and remained black with the
ground trembling occasionally clear up until 3 o'clock.
Over in America, the whole continent was in turmoil as were the islands
of the sea. Towards the end, He cried out, "I thirst." On a sponge
they put vinegar up because that was supposed to alleviate the pain a
little bit. He looked down in His agony and He said, "John, behold thy
mother; mother, behold thy son." Apparently Joseph had passed away.
He's just saying, "John, take care of my mother, Mary." And then, after
they'd tormented Him and pestered Him, "Why don't you come down? Why
don't you heal yourself?" All of this is in the 110th Psalm--all of it
was seen by David. He knew the very words Jesus would say. And then
almost when the agony was beyond bearing, and it was getting toward dusk
when they would have to start breaking their legs so they would die
fast, suddenly Jesus looked up and said, "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani?
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" The Spirit of the Father
had withdrawn from this man-- left Him absolutely alone, hanging on that
cross. But just for a moment--and then the Spirit of God surged back
into Him, to say, in effect, "My Son, I'm here--we did it!" He lifted
up His face and He said, "It is finished. Father, into Thy hands I
commend my spirit." And he departed.
At that moment Jesus became the Christ. He had done what was necessary
to overcome the demands of justice so we could go back. He did it. And
by the power of that great force that was in Him, He now had three days
and nights and would have that body lifted, resurrected, purified, and
glorified, and it's such a thrilling thing to contemplate Mary Magdalene
coming and leaning against the wall of the tomb--she knows that someone
stole the body. She thinks maybe it's the gardener and she sees that
person standing through her tears, standing there. She said, "Master,
if thou hast born Him hence, tell me where thou hast laid Him and I will
bear Him away." And the person said, "Mary." She looked up and said,
"Master!" He said, "Touch me not. I am not yet ascended to my Father
who is in heaven. But go and tell the brethren I ascend unto my God and
their God." And he was gone. That's the Easter story.
And our Heavenly Father suffered so much that night in Gethsemane when
that Son of His lay among the leaves underneath the olive trees and
said, "O Father, if it be possible, take this cup from me." Our
Heavenly Father was suffering so much that moment that He wanted at
least one of His children of the earth to know what that was like that
night for Him. And so He said to our great ancestor, Abraham, "I want
you to take your best, beloved son up onto the top of Mount Moriah and I
want you to offer him unto me as a sacrifice." "My son! To whom you
promised his seed might be like unto the sands of the seashore. Mine
only son and heir. I kill him? And burn him?" And without telling
Sarah, he took this young man, probably in his early teens, up to the
top of Mount Moriah. And Josephus, who had access to all the books of
the temple, says that he said to his son, "My child, I wouldn't have had
you without a special blessing from God to your mother. And He, having
sent you to me, now asks that I send you back--not by disease, or war,
or old age, but as a sacrament unto Him at the hands of your own Father.
I now send you to Him." And he raised the knife. Oh, the anguish of
that father! And in Jacob 4:5 of The Book of Mormon it says that that
was done to symbolize the feelings of the Father and the Son. That was
specifically done so that at least one human father would know what the
pain and anguish was like that night in Gethsemane as Jesus said, "O
Father, all things are possible unto Thee--take this cup from me."
You know as you begin to understand this beautiful doctrine--the
intelligences in the universe, the fact that their honor of God is what
makes Him God--the fact that if He lost their confidence, He'd cease to
be God--these are basic doctrines of the restored gospel as it says in
Jacob 2. Why don't we talk about the atonement more? We don't talk
about the real basis of the atonement--we talk about it as a proven
fact, without ever reaching out and saying, "Heavenly Father, I think I
understand just a little. I think I understand." I don't know what it
does for you but it has made me to love my Heavenly Father like I've
never loved Him before. And I've learned to love the Savior Jesus
Christ like I've never loved Him before. Now that I know what those two
wonderful people did for me and you and our children and all the people
of this world, the planet on which we live--and all the beautiful things
that He's blessed us with. It would have all been destroyed and lost if
those two people hadn't done what they did. I love them for that.
I bear witness that Jesus is the Christ. We have a Father in Heaven who
loves us. The atonement is real. The atonement is effective. The
atonement works. There is a resurrection. There is forgiveness of
sins. Though our sins be as scarlet, if we will truly repent, we can be
restored and taken back to our Heavenly Father cleansed like white snow.
(Isaiah 1:18) I pray our Heavenly Father that He'll help us so we won't
let Him down, so we won't betray the Christ, so we'll be good
missionaries and spread this great message to our neighbors. I pray
that we may be worthy of the atonement and gospel of Jesus Christ which
has been restored for us, in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.
(Read D&C 128:23)

[freedomforall]

freedomforall,
All you want to do is argue and contend and I'm not going to do that with you.
You are just closed mined and looking to fight.
So just go away.
There is a book of 368 pages that consist only of quotes from Josephs time to later prophets on this topic.
So stop hounding me and read the book.
But go away.
If you actually read something, even you would see how childish your behavior is, so go away.
If this doctrine is so offensive and I'm willing to do such evil as you say, why don't you just go away.
You proved your nature when your earlier blowup so just go away.
I've repeatedly said that this thread is not for anyone who finds this offensive, so go away.
And if you succeed in chasing everyone else away from this thread, go away.
But in that very un probable, in your mind, possibility that I might be right, read the book, but go away.

But even if you don't go away, I'm not going to contend with you.
If you refuse to accept the recorded teachings of the prophets of the restoration, that is your choice,
but I'm not going to Contend with you. I have provided quote after quote after quote all referenced.
But in condemning me you condemn the prophets who reveled them.

So just go away.
If if this topic goes silent as a result of your contentions, so be it, but I'll not contend with you.
You say that you require proof from the scriptures, yet you attempt entrapments using writings other that the scriptures.
So just go away.
I can provide complete proof of this doctrine, and I will to honest seekers of the truth, but not seekers of contention.
So just go away.

You're the one contending. The proof of it is in the back and forth, you're right and I'm wrong stuff with other posters here. Go figure.
Tell you what, I'll speak to other posters and/or post my words alone, then you cannot claim I'm contending with you. I'll even go to such great lengths as to type slower. Okay?
Where you are unequivocally in error is the fact I'm contending against false doctrine...not you as person, therefore, the scriptures that other people see as fact cannot offend you in the least. Let's face it, understanding scripture isn't rocket science. But setting aside scripture is not a cool way to teach.
Sorry you are personally offended, but some here have claimed that truth is everywhere and where it is found.

1 Nephi 16:2
2 ...the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center.

Is this why you are so mad?

BTW, Wilford Woodruff is my Great-great grandfather, so there is no need to quote him as a defense. I still do not have to believe everything he said at one time or another....unless followed or preceded by, thus saith the Lord. That's the proper way.

[Doug]

David, King of Israel
“Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.” (Psalms 2:9)

Isaiah
“But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.” (Isaiah 64:8)

Jeremiah
“The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying, Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.” (Jeremiah 18:2-6)

Brigham Young
“The Lord said to Jeremiah the Prophet, ‘Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hands of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.’
The clay that marred in the potter’s hands was thrown back into the unprepared portion, to be prepared over again. So it will be with every wicked man and woman, and every wicked nation, kingdom, and government upon earth, sooner or later; they will be thrown back to the native element from which they originated, to be worked over again, and be prepared to enjoy some sort of a kingdom.” (JD 2:124)

Heber C. Kimball
“Elder Heber C. Kimball preached at the house of President Joseph Smith, on the parable in the 18th chapter of Jeremiah, of the clay in the hands of the potter, that when it marred in the hands of the potter it was cut off the wheel and then thrown back again into the mill, to go into the next batch, and was a vessel of dishonor; but all clay that formed well in the hands of the potter, and was pliable, was a vessel of honor; and thus it was with the human family, and ever will be: all that are pliable in the hands of God and are obedient to His commands, are vessels of honor, and God will receive them. President Joseph arose and said—‘Brother Kimball has given you a true explanation of the parable…’” (Minutes of a Meeting of the Twelve in the House of the Prophet. HC 4:478)
“Upon the same principle, supposing I have a lump of clay which I put upon my wheel, out of which clay I want to make a jug; I have to turn it into as many as 50 or 100 shapes before I get it into a jug. How many shapes do you suppose you are put into before you became Saints, or before you become perfect and sanctified to enter into the celestial glory of God? You have got to be like that clay in the hands of the potter. Do you not know that the Lord directed the Prophet anciently, to go down to the potter's house to see a miracle on the wheel?
Suppose the potter takes a lump of clay, and putting it on the wheel, goes to work to form it into a vessel, and works it out this way, and that way, and the other way, but the clay is refractory and snappish; he still trys it, but it will break, and snap, and snarl, and thus the potter will work it and work it until he is satisfied he cannot bring it into the shape he wants, and it mars upon the wheel; he takes his tool, then, and cuts it off the wheel, and throws it into the mill to be ground over again, until it becomes passive, (don't you think you will go to hell if you are not passive?) and after it is ground there so many days, and it becomes passive, he takes the same lump, and makes of it a vessel unto honor.
Now do you see into that, brethren? I know the potters can. I tell you, brethren, if you are not passive you will have to go into that mill, and perhaps have to grind there one thousand years, and then the Gospel will be offered to you again, and then if you will not accept of it, and become passive, you will have to go into the mill again, and thus you will have offers of salvation from time to time, until all the human family, except the sons of perdition, are redeemed. The spirits of men will have the Gospel as we do, and they are to be judged according to men in the flesh. Let us be passive, and take a course that will be perfectly submissive.” (JD 1:161)