Mysteries of the Kingdom

[Doug]

The truth is that the fact remains that if I go through MMP then there is a chance I could get sealed to more than one husband. This is the ultimate heresy to most men and especially to fundamentalists and is a flaw in your theory bc, as you pointed out, agency trumps everything and I could technically choose different men in different worlds to be sealed to. The whole human family would be so scrambled up that it wouldn't make sense anymore.

It's not my theory, Brigham taught it.
Yes, you can indeed choose differently.
But that is what the Council in heaven is all about, to plan it out.

Also, when Christ comes down with one of his wives, what about his other wives? Can they not go on to perfection? Does Christ have to keep coming down with different wives so they can progress? Or can Christ's wives marry other men to progress so that he doesn't have to keep coming down?

Each wife gets her own world, and probably more than 1.

The blood that you're talking about in your reposted explanation is not the blood of the atonement, but actual blood. It is Christ's atonement that breaks the chains of death and hell. Your theory, to me, denies the power of Christ to save. It relies on the person to perfect themselves and not qualify themselves.

I don't know what you mean by "blood of the atonement".
It is the Atonement that Perfects Christ and allows him to become the next father. This allows the pattern to repeat.
Yes, only I can change me. I have to chose to be different, that is agency.
But Christ saves me from the sins of this generation be redeeming me for the next.
The pattern is broken when I live a sinless life and I am cleansed of my blood.
The pattern for women is broken when they become the women that would be chosen by a perfected man
and they accept his proposal.

[True]

So Christ has to keep coming to earths until he collects all his wives?

[True]

Christ's blood only perfects Him?

[Doug]

“My next sermon will be to both Saint and sinner. One thing has remained a mystery in this kingdom up to this day. It is in regard to the character of the well-beloved Son of God, upon which subject the Elders of Israel have conflicting views. Our God and Father in heaven, is a being of tabernacle, or, in other words, He has a body, with parts the same as you and I have; and is capable of showing forth His works to organized beings, as, for instance, in the world in which we live, it is the result of the knowledge and infinite wisdom that dwell in His organized body. His son Jesus Christ has become a personage of tabernacle, and has a body like his father. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of the Lord, and issues forth from Himself, and may properly be called God's minister to execute His will in immensity; being called to govern by His influence and power; but He is not a person of tabernacle as we are, and as our Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ are. The question has been, and is often, asked, who it was that begat the Son of the Virgin Mary. The infidel world have concluded that if what the Apostles wrote about his father and mother be true, and the present marriage discipline acknowledged by Christendom be correct, then Christians must believe that God is the father of an illegitimate son, in the person of Jesus Christ! The infidel fraternity teach that to their disciples. I will tell you how it is. Our Father in Heaven begat all the spirits that ever were, or ever will be, upon this earth; and they were born spirits in the eternal world. Then the Lord by His power and wisdom organized the mortal tabernacle of man. We were made first spiritual, and afterwards temporal. Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel, and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and over-righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by exclaiming ‘great is the mystery of godliness,’ and tell nothing. 162 It is true that the earth was organized by three distinct characters, namely, Eloheim, Yahovah, and Michael, these three forming a quorum, as in all heavenly bodies, and in organizing element, perfectly represented in the Deity, as Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Again, they will try to tell how the divinity of Jesus is joined to his humanity, and exhaust all their mental faculties, and wind up with this profound language, as describing the soul of man, ‘it is an immaterial substance!’ What a learned idea! Jesus, our elder brother, was begotten in the flesh by the same character that was in the garden of Eden, and who is our Father in Heaven. Now, let all who may hear these doctrines, pause before they make light of them, or treat them with indifference, for they will prove their salvation or damnation. I have given you a few leading items upon this subject, but a great deal more remains to be told. Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost… Treasure up these things in your hearts. In the Bible, you have read the things I have told you to-night; but you have not known what you did read. I have told you no more than you are conversant with; but what do the people in Christendom, with the Bible in their hands, know about this subject? Comparatively nothing.” (JD 1: 50-52. Capitols in Original.)

[Doug]

So Christ has to keep coming to earths until he collects all his wives?

I don't know, I've not read much of that.

[True]

That answer does not make sense.

[Doug]

Christ's blood only perfects Him?

And gives me another opportunity, thus compensating for any thing that did not go right for me due to other's agency or any opportunity that I did not get.

[Doug]

That answer does not make sense.

I don't know what answer.
Go find the book, "The Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives".

[True]

This is a depressing theory with lots of holes.

[Doug]

This is a depressing theory with lots of holes.

Again, it is not a theory. It is a doctrine that Joseph, Brigham, John, George, Wilford, ... taught.
And your reaction is a lot of why it has not been taught.
It can/does bring opposition to it for specific reasons.
1) Not much has been taught about the female role and process.
2) It places much responsibility on an individual to "make changes to them selves" rather than just letting the blood of Christ fix everything.
3) It seems to promote procrastination, "I don't have to change in this life, I have all the lives in eternity to do that, I'm gona have fun in this one"

I don't expect expect everyone or anyone, to accept this doctrine. I expect very few will. And while I'll try to answer questions the best I can. this topic is not really for those struggling to accept it. In fact, my recommendation is that you don't pursue it, purge it from your mind and return to your original beliefs. The last thing I want is to see is anyone destroy them selves over this doctrine. I have no problem with you saying "this Doug guy is full of the devil and I'm not going to listen to him anymore" and then just block this topic and go away. But don't persecute anyone for participating in this topic.

I sat in a High Priest Group Meeting one day and listen to an energetic (in high priests?) discussion on whether certain figures were perdition or not. Eventually someone said, "Bro. Doug, we have not heard from you, what do you think?" Since I think the discussion mote, I wasn't paying close attention and was startled. The best I could muster was "God is doing everything he possibly can to save as many of us as will let him, so who am I to judge".

[True]

I'm pretty sure I haven't persecuted you, just pointed out that that plan does not take into account women, which are 50% of the population - maybe even more if everyone is going to have 1000 wives.

[Doug]

I'm pretty sure I haven't persecuted you, just pointed out that that plan does not take into account women, which are 50% of the population - maybe even more if everyone is going to have 1000 wives.

I apologize, I did not intend to imply that in any way that your questions were persecutions, please forgive me.

The role of women is addressed usually as a Wife of Adam and as the Mother of a world.
Not much else is said, but that does not diminish the role or the value of women.
Maybe I should not have said 1000, it was kind of an exaggeration to make a point.
I actually have no idea how many wifes Adam has. I do know he has at least two, Eve and Mary.

There are three reasons, that I know of, why women are not discussed much.
1) they are held in such high esteem that it is not wanted to expose them to the mockery to which the Men are exposed.
2) there are NO daughters of perdition. that kind of rebellion just does not exist in them.
3) they will never handle the powers that can create and destroy worlds so the concern that they may misuse those powers does not exist,
their role is that they are mothers and have great influence on the development of spirit children and any women chosen by a perfected
man to have that kind of power over his children is a most Glorious being and he does her great honor in his choice.

And I hope you do not take offense in this, it is not intended, but have you considered that holes you perceive in the doctrine may actually
be holes in your knowledge and understanding of the doctrine?

[Doug]

I'm pretty sure I haven't persecuted you, just pointed out that that plan does not take into account women, which are 50% of the population - maybe even more if everyone is going to have 1000 wives.

BTW, I believe that far more than 50% of the exalted population are women, just my belief.

[Doug]

https://daysidixonleli.files.wordpress. ... nymous.pdf

[True]

Maybe I just can't understand it bc I am a woman. I'm so pure and holy so we can't talk about me and I will never be involved in anything more important other than making babies and I haven't had the absolute honor of an exhalted man condescending to ask me to be his 759th wife. Of course my worth would be even greater if he has 2000 wives to love. I'm wondering if my sister in law knew all of this she would leave her husband.
Seriously, that is what you have written thus far sounds like to a faithful daughter of God. Damaging.

[Doug]

Sarcasm is unbecoming.
The roles of male and female are different because the true nature of male and female are different.
As per being pure and holy, I'm not your judge, your husband will be.
And if all you think of being a mother is just making babies, well ...

I have tried to be open, honest and sincere and have meant nothing but respect.
But that same respect is not reflected in your response.
I see no reason to say anything else to have it twisted also.

[True]

I am sorry for the sarcasm but honestly the way you talk about women is that they are too special to talk about but less than men in many ways. Their value is increased, and that is why you said, when their husband is capable of taking care of many, many wives. Would your value increase if your wife had 600 other husbands?

[inho]

the way you talk about women is that they are too special to talk about but less than men in many ways.

As a famous feminist once put it:

I wish there were time to talk at length about why the pedestal as a symbol of women’s immobilization and isolation in our male-centered society, more than any other symbol—the gilded cage, the doll’s house—reveals our savage misogyny. Briefly, it is physically, intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually cramped. It is precarious, and a fall is dangerous, if not fatal. It maroons women and keeps us emotionally stranded from one another. And by placing us in the position customarily occupied by statues, it reveals society’s attempt to render us as conveniently nonhuman, mindless, and will-less as works of art

[Juliet]

Sarcasm is unbecoming.
The roles of male and female are different because the true nature of male and female are different.
As per being pure and holy, I'm not your judge, your husband will be.
And if all you think of being a mother is just making babies, well ...

I have tried to be open, honest and sincere and have meant nothing but respect.
But that same respect is not reflected in your response.
I see no reason to say anything else to have it twisted also.

Doug, I really respect all that you are saying here. It very well may be true. Forgive me if it is my carnal side that needs to question it.

If we all have a right brain and a left brain, if we all have a right hand and a left hand, then why do we have to have man and plural women? Why would we need 2 right brains? Why would we need 2 left hands? The female is the mirror dna to the male. We know that for every Adam, there is an Eve that was created with his dna. Why must he have more than one?

My personal hope is the polygamy even in the eternal worlds is temporary, until every Adam pairs up with His Eve.

Why would a man need to have so many wives to be happy? It goes back to the old European thinking that to conquer is what brings happiness. But we know that having more and more and more, be it money, wealth, or wives, isn't what brings happiness.

What does bring happiness is to be true to yourself. And how better to do that then to find your beloved and become one with her for all time and eternity? You wouldn't need more than one wife unless it was temporary for her to receive some companionship on her journey to find her beloved.

[sandman45]

Ok lets talk about this now...

[John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

What is meant "More Abundantly?" is this another way of saying eternal lives? (remember Eternal Lives is also promised in Temple)

John 10: 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Power to lay down life and take it again...

John 10: 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

30 I and my Father are one.

31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.

32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Jews want to stone him because what he said made him equal with God.. and he replies with ye are Gods.. this is interesting

John 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

Son only does what the father has done.. The Father Showed Christ ALL things that he did and showed him more greater works.

Also notice how the Father raised the dead and quickened them (past tense), and Christ will quicken (future tense) those he will

These statements by the Son about the Father and Himself when really thought about reveal some mysteries

[Doug]

sandman45,
Most know of that picture containing the image of an old hag and a young maiden. The old hag is obvious, but it takes a little work to see the young maiden at first. But as you study the image more, and since viewing the young maiden is more desirable, the old hag begins to fade and the young maiden begins to dominate the image.
And soon you see that MMP permeates the very scriptures one thought completely void of even the notion of MMP.

[Doug]

Doug, I really respect all that you are saying here. It very well may be true. Forgive me if it is my carnal side that needs to question it.

If we all have a right brain and a left brain, if we all have a right hand and a left hand, then why do we have to have man and plural women? Why would we need 2 right brains? Why would we need 2 left hands? The female is the mirror dna to the male. We know that for every Adam, there is an Eve that was created with his dna. Why must he have more than one?

My personal hope is the polygamy even in the eternal worlds is temporary, until every Adam pairs up with His Eve.

Why would a man need to have so many wives to be happy? It goes back to the old European thinking that to conquer is what brings happiness. But we know that having more and more and more, be it money, wealth, or wives, isn't what brings happiness.

What does bring happiness is to be true to yourself. And how better to do that then to find your beloved and become one with her for all time and eternity? You wouldn't need more than one wife unless it was temporary for her to receive some companionship on her journey to find her beloved.

As much as I would like to avoid this particular issue, I feel compelled to address it.
There is nothing I can say to justify polygyny. I can not rationalize it or validate it in any way.
There is no point in any of that.
It is an eternal law. It is the way it has always been. It is the way it will always be.
Accepting, embracing and honoring it is the only way to achieve the greatest joy.
You may or may not like it.
You may or may not understand it.
But that will not affect anything but you.
Again, achieving the greatest joy is done only through living eternal law.

As to "We know that for every Adam, there is an Eve that was created with his dna.", this is not true.
There is only one way bodies are created. They are born of a mother and a father.
The parable used in the garden is to show that Adam and Eve were absolutely on the same page with what was to happen in the garden.
Adam and Eve were both born of the dusts of a world, but not this one.
They were both Glorified Resurrected Immortal Beings before coming to this world.
They did not lose their immortal bodies while they were here, they did not die.


Adam had Life unto himself because he was the Savior of the world from which they came.
And Eve was resurrected by Adam, giving her Life, Glory, and Beauty beyond comparison with mortality.

The plan requires at a minimum, two wives, Eve and Mary, Polygyny is a necessity.

If you don't accept what I've said here, I'm OK with that.
Some say this is the cross that women must bare, OK.

But it is what it is, eternal law.

[zionbuilder]

This isn't necessarily doctrine I take issue with, but my question would be: If you say (semantics here whether you say the prophets say) Adam is Christ, why could Eve not be Mary?

[shadow]

This isn't necessarily doctrine I take issue with, but my question would be: If you say (semantics here whether you say the prophets say) Adam is Christ, why could Eve not be Mary?

I think (note I haven't read most of this thread) he's saying that Adam was a Christ on a previous world. The Christ of this world will be Adam in his next world. I think that's what he's suggesting. I don't think he's saying Adam is Christ.

[Doug]

This isn't necessarily doctrine I take issue with, but my question would be: If you say (semantics here whether you say the prophets say) Adam is Christ, why could Eve not be Mary?

I think (note I haven't read most of this thread) he's saying that Adam was a Christ on a previous world. The Christ of this world will be Adam in his next world. I think that's what he's suggesting. I don't think he's saying Adam is Christ.

You are correct, the Father of this would, the God we pray to is Adam.
Christ, the Savior of this world, is Adam's Son and will be the Father. Adam, of the next world.