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Doug wrote: ↑July 30th, 2017, 8:13 pm... and of your bullying.Doug wrote: ↑July 30th, 2017, 7:45 pmYour own words testify against you!alaris wrote: ↑July 30th, 2017, 6:59 pm The history is there to see the clear bait and switch and my "bullying." That may be the first time I have ever been accused of such. I can see you will just go on and on with the false accusations. Unlike you I won't go to the moderator as truth speaks for itself and doesn't require the silencing of others. Signing of, Doug. May God give you what's due.You attempt to place yourself above Joseph, Brigham, John, George, Wilford, ...
My own words testify against me how? I do have a unique perspective that I've never heard any LDS connect the dots quite like I've had. There are tons of people who have unique perspectives--can they offer a unique perspective without being accused of putting themselves above the prophets? You accuse me of ad hominem falsely and then let the ad hominem flow - pretty sad Doug. Spellcheck wants to change hominem to Eminem for some reason. This reminds me of a scripture ...Doug wrote: ↑July 30th, 2017, 8:47 pm And the first mention of Adam God was
by freedomforall » Thu Jul 27, 2017 8:13 pm
I was talking about Eternal Lives, I guess you would say that is the bait,
but it was freedomforall that made the switch.
Assertions without prof can be dismissed without prof.
But much more effective with prof.
So it seems you've taken a page from the book of Zeezrom here Doug. I say "I have a unique understanding of the Adam God relationship that I've never heard any other LDS detail as I have." and you say my words testify against me that I "attempt to place yourself above Joseph, Brigham, John, George, Wilford, ..."Alma 11:34 And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.
35 Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall not save his people—as though he had authority to command God.
36 Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins.
Seriously? Do you realize that your "evidence" just make it clear that your bullying claim is a false accusation?Until you have done as I have asked we are not on equal footing as only one of us has studied both conflicting doctrines. Again I'm referring to specifically the model I shared of which there is full detail in my blog.
Fair enough.Doug wrote: ↑July 31st, 2017, 8:17 pm
alaris,
Your claim of a unique perspective that is in direct opposition to the teachings of more than one of the prophets of God,
and your assertion that I am not on equal grounds with you until I pray over such unique doctrines is a claim of stewardship
over both me and the prophets of God.
I stand by my words.
I hove no intention of standing anywhere near the grounds you stand on in this matter.
I prefer the grounds established by true messengers from my Father, Adam, God.
If you want to let bygones be bygones, just be gone.
There is a fine line between having honest differences of opinion as to what the prophets meant,
another thing altogether to have your own unique doctrine in opposition to what has been said.
Anyone is welcome, including you and freedomforall, to express any oppinion you have on any topic you chose.
But make no judjements on anyone based on how little or how much they accept or reject what you say.
That is what I mean when I say be gone, not you, just your judgements of where I or anyone else stands relative to either you or God.
I AM a strongly oppinionated person, and sometimes I jump to bad opinions. But the opinions I express in public
have, usually, been quite well vetted. While I understand that most of the writtings of the prophets of the restoration
are not cannonized, they are indeed "out of the best books" and I do rely on them very much and will continue to do so.
The scriptures and these writtings are that with which I back up my opinions, claims, and statements, by providing referenced quotes.
If I make a statement and don't provide a refernced quote, call me on it and I will either provide the reference or
acknowledge it as an unsubstanciated claim.
I hope that this topic will continue and that all ill will or bad feelings will disapate.
Awesome.alaris wrote: ↑July 31st, 2017, 8:20 pmFair enough.Doug wrote: ↑July 31st, 2017, 8:17 pm
alaris,
Your claim of a unique perspective that is in direct opposition to the teachings of more than one of the prophets of God,
and your assertion that I am not on equal grounds with you until I pray over such unique doctrines is a claim of stewardship
over both me and the prophets of God.
I stand by my words.
I hove no intention of standing anywhere near the grounds you stand on in this matter.
I prefer the grounds established by true messengers from my Father, Adam, God.
If you want to let bygones be bygones, just be gone.
There is a fine line between having honest differences of opinion as to what the prophets meant,
another thing altogether to have your own unique doctrine in opposition to what has been said.
Anyone is welcome, including you and freedomforall, to express any oppinion you have on any topic you chose.
But make no judjements on anyone based on how little or how much they accept or reject what you say.
That is what I mean when I say be gone, not you, just your judgements of where I or anyone else stands relative to either you or God.
I AM a strongly oppinionated person, and sometimes I jump to bad opinions. But the opinions I express in public
have, usually, been quite well vetted. While I understand that most of the writtings of the prophets of the restoration
are not cannonized, they are indeed "out of the best books" and I do rely on them very much and will continue to do so.
The scriptures and these writtings are that with which I back up my opinions, claims, and statements, by providing referenced quotes.
If I make a statement and don't provide a refernced quote, call me on it and I will either provide the reference or
acknowledge it as an unsubstanciated claim.
I hope that this topic will continue and that all ill will or bad feelings will disapate.
One of my lifelong questions, How did The Savior stand before that pit of vipers, in a blood soaked purple robe meant only to mock and a crown of thorns and in all his hidden majesty, glory and power - what perspective did he have - to not wipe them off the face of the earth with the raise of an eyebrow.
Great stories Doug - thanks for sharing. To help stick to the OP which I notoriously derail, mysteries cannot be discovered without love and without doing the works and you demonstrated that wonderfully. Helping a man return to the fold IS the work of salvation and godhood.Doug wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 2:50 amOne of my lifelong questions, How did The Savior stand before that pit of vipers, in a blood soaked purple robe meant only to mock and a crown of thorns and in all his hidden majesty, glory and power - what perspective did he have - to not wipe them off the face of the earth with the raise of an eyebrow.
Yes, part of it was that this had to happen, but there is more, a perspective of the way things really are. But what is that perspective.
Just as accepting Adam is God is important to understanding The Doctrine of Eternal Lives.
Accepting The Doctrine of Eternal Lives gives one a perspective found no other way.
W.W. Phelps caused great, great, great .... great harm to Joseph Smith and the Church.
But when he petitioned Joseph for his forgiveness, it was instant and complete.
The simple mystery exposed is that we have the greatest love for those we forgive.
And the perspective I have gained in how to forgive comes from accepting The Doctrine of Eternal Lives.
I have a friend who was falsely accused at a church discipline counsel and was dis fellowship.
Later His Bishop and Stake President said he had done everything they had asked him to do
and wanted to return him to full fellowship but he had not confessed, he had nothing to confess. Catch 22.
He asked me for a blessing and I accepted that honor. In the blessing I told him that he had accepted
this happening to him because someone close to him needed to learn a lesson and this was the way for that to happen
A few days later I asked to meet with his Bishop and he consented. The Bishop reminded it was his responsibility
to determine innocence or guilt. I reminded him that only my friend could decide to be innocent or guilty
and the Bishops role was to discern what his decision was. I am not claiming any influence, but my friend
was returned to full fellowship. The point, we know so little that we can make judgements on others,
including ourselves.
alaris and freedomforall are my brothers. And The Doctrine of Eternal Lives tells me we have many
worlds and lives together before we qualify to be the Savior of a World. I'm not sure if they need my help,
but I know that I am going to need their help along the way. And if I am to deserve their help, I must lend mine.
In 1999, on Mothers day. I checked into the hospital being diagnosed with GBS and two days later I was nearly completely
paralyzed. A neighbor came to my wife and told her he was there to repair and maintain anything in our house
that was amiss. He said that was something he could do to lighten her load while I was in the hospital. She asked him
why. He told her this story.
I barely new this man but I passed his home on my way home from work and saw him setting on the curb with the wheel
of his boat trailer in parts an the ground next to him. And I knew he was to go on a long anticipated family vacation that day.
I stopped and told him that I had just replaced the bearings in my trailer and if he could use some help I would do what I could.
He accepted, I went home and changed and returned, I didn't do much. Just elped him remove the bearings
and gather up all the info needed to go get replacements. I drove him to the parts store and we were out in a flash
knowing what we needed for the clerk to find the correct parts. We returned and greased the bearings and reassembled everything
and were done in an hour. When I did this, it took an entire day but with what I had learned it was easy this time.
This man no longer lives in my ward, but when he visits we always meet and shake hands, silently with great meaning.
It was such a little thing, but this is how Gods are made. We make each other Gods by helping each other to have the love
for each other, the kind of love that would compel a man to suffer the ultimate suffering for the salvation of his brothers.
We love who we serve and we love who we forgive. Why is it a mystery, Christ taught it by example, no greater service,
no greater forgiveness, no greater love.
Finrock, I appreciate your comment, such insight.
Many LDS will say, "Yeah it seems that one life isn't a enough." Of course it isn't! There are so many other fundamental LDS beliefs that don't jive with "one mortal probation" before godhood. I have listed them out before many times and many threads.Doug wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 2:50 am alaris and freedomforall are my brothers. And The Doctrine of Eternal Lives tells me we have many worlds and lives together before we qualify to be the Savior of a World. I'm not sure if they need my help, but I know that I am going to need their help along the way. And if I am to deserve their help, I must lend mine.
Great discussion. I think we also need to realize is that there are a countless number of beings who could be classified as a God... they may not be our direct God but are part of the whole family of celestial beings.alaris wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 12:07 pm
You and I also agree that Adam is part of the godhead, we just disagree as to which God he is. I would love to continue debating this in a friendly manner. On LDSFF I've shared many theories and things which I consider to be solid testimony. Sometimes the challenges I receive are friendly, and sometimes they are hostile. However, all the challenges have been great in this one aspect because the challenges cause me to reflect, "How do I know this?"
Agreed. The baptismal covenant detailed in Mosiah 18 detail specific roles we promise to undertake that are - not coincidentally - the SAME roles as the holy ghost:sandman45 wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 1:16 pmGreat discussion. I think we also need to realize is that there are a countless number of beings who could be classified as a God... they may not be our direct God but are part of the whole family of celestial beings.alaris wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 12:07 pm
You and I also agree that Adam is part of the godhead, we just disagree as to which God he is. I would love to continue debating this in a friendly manner. On LDSFF I've shared many theories and things which I consider to be solid testimony. Sometimes the challenges I receive are friendly, and sometimes they are hostile. However, all the challenges have been great in this one aspect because the challenges cause me to reflect, "How do I know this?"
Details are missing in the scriptures as to how many and who they are.. The ones that are important to us "Our Godhead" is what is mentioned.
I like to think that the Council of Gods was more than just 3 or 4 individuals.. what if it is a whole quorum like we have here on earth with priesthood. That would mean there are at least 15 individuals that are resurrected and have attained that God status or title.
anyway just some thoughts.
-Sandman
There's another awesome thread here on the identity of the Holy Ghost that builds off this idea.Mosiah 18:9 Yea, and are willing to mourn with those that mourn; yea, and comfort those that stand in need of comfort, and to stand as witnesses of God at all times and in all things, and in all places that ye may be in, even until death, that ye may be redeemed of God, and be numbered with those of the first resurrection, that ye may have eternal life—
Each dispensation head is over their order or class of beings. Joseph Smith is over the baseline, so there are more beings under his jurisdiction than any other single prophet other than Michael who presides over all. He also established the temple work - so even if you just look at temple work, he has done more for the salvation of souls "in this world" as it says in 135 than anyone other than Jesus Himself.
And he still presides over this dispensation, he is not done yet.alaris wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 1:34 pmEach dispensation head is over their order or class of beings. Joseph Smith is over the baseline, so there are more beings under his jurisdiction than any other single prophet other than Michael who presides over all. He also established the temple work - so even if you just look at temple work, he has done more for the salvation of souls "in this world" as it says in 135 than anyone other than Jesus Himself.
Pretty sure its in that other threadMoses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
My very personal belief here is that if you are sealed to a husband and are sealed by the holy spirit of promise and if you both descend into a subsequent mortality together ... you will find each other again. <3 How does Robert Sinclair do those hearts? I'd throw some here.
:ymhug:Still pondering that verse 61 - very deepsandman45 wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 1:38 pm My Favorite scripture on the holy ghost is this..
Pretty sure its in that other threadMoses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
Moses 6:59 is one of the great scriptures on MMP, which explains the significance of Blood. I posted on this somewhere.alaris wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 1:45 pmStill pondering that verse 61 - very deepsandman45 wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 1:38 pm My Favorite scripture on the holy ghost is this..
Pretty sure its in that other threadMoses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
I am just reposting this.Doug wrote: ↑July 31st, 2017, 2:38 pmThis scripture says even though you have been born into the mortal world,Moses 6
59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
entry into the kingdom of heaven is through birth also, another birth
so how does the blood of Christ cleans us?
When Adam and Eve are on their Celestial home, eating the fruits of that world, they have a finer substance in their bodies, not blood.
And the offspring they produce is of the dusts of the that world, finer matter, their offspring have spirit bodies, not mortal bodies.
When Adam brought Eve to this earth, they were immortal, they ate of the fruits of this earth, a fallen earth,
the finer substance in their bodies was replaced with blood.
This made them subject to death but also allowed them to produce mortal offspring.
When Adam and Eve returned to their Celestial Home, they ate of the fruit of that world replacing the blood with a finer substance.
And thus returning full immortality.
When Christ took up the very same body he laid down, it had been purged of blood. Yet he lived.
He is now immortal, not subject to death. This is what allows him and his wives to provide offspring
with spirit bodies as ether 3:14 tells us. And with spirit bodies we can now reside with him in the kingdom of heaven. (see D&C 129)
And further, When Christ, now an Adam takes one of his wives, now an Eve, to the new world and eats of it's fruit, they produce
mortal offspring thus preparing the way for all his spirit children to be born again in mortality.
It is the loose of blood that allows us to be redeemed from hell and become the sons and daughters of Christ.
It is the returned blood that allows us another opportunity in mortality to make changes in our selfs to become less sinful.
And so, we repeat one generation of time after another, one Adam after another, one Christ after another
until we break the pattern, we live a sinless life, we take up the perfect body we laid down,
we have no need for rebirth because we have life unto ourselves, just as Christ did, so will we.
So, indeed, the blood of Christ does cleanse us.
The truth of the matter is that the Sealing power does NOT trump agency.True wrote: ↑August 1st, 2017, 2:44 pm Doug, your take on how many husbands I will be sealed to? Remember, there is still agency. My sister in law, on this Thursday, went back to her husband on the same day her divorce was final despite his constant emotional abuse, cheating, and requesting an additional sexual partner into their marriage. Agency does not go well with ending up with the same partner every time. If she was sealed to a righteous person in another life, she sure messed it up this time.