The Davidic Servant, Revelation 12, and 9/23/2017

[Alaris]

Friends,

I have created a blog. I did not want to, but as difficult as it is to format a blog, it's easier than doing it here and easier on the eyes than reading a lengthy forum post. So without further ado:

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... aimer.html

So this blog is about the sign from Revelation 12 of the crowned woman clothed with the sun that seems to occur on 9/23/2017 and how it may be related to the anointing of the Davidic Servant. Enjoy!

[True]

Thank you for putting all of that together! It is a different take on the Davidic Servant and very interesting.

[BeNotDeceived]

Disclaimer: The purpose of this writing is to share how Revelation 12, the sign given on 9/23, and Isaiah 9:6 may all be tied together. This is not a prophecy but an interpretation of prophecy. However, if I am correct about what these signs and scriptures mean, 9/23 may come and go and none (or few) may be the wiser. This is not a convenience, as I believe some day we will all be the wiser and see eye to eye. Thus, I ask that you not take my word for anything in this piece—I do ask sincerely that you pray before reading, ponder, and then pray at the end and ask Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ if these things are true.

Very well written. :ymapplause:

Double space after a period. :ymparty:

[Alaris]

Disclaimer: The purpose of this writing is to share how Revelation 12, the sign given on 9/23, and Isaiah 9:6 may all be tied together. This is not a prophecy but an interpretation of prophecy. However, if I am correct about what these signs and scriptures mean, 9/23 may come and go and none (or few) may be the wiser. This is not a convenience, as I believe some day we will all be the wiser and see eye to eye. Thus, I ask that you not take my word for anything in this piece—I do ask sincerely that you pray before reading, ponder, and then pray at the end and ask Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ if these things are true.

Very well written. :ymapplause:

Double space after a period. :ymparty:

You are at least as old as I am. "They" changed that rule. Took me a while to break the habit but save your thumbs some arthritis and single space. You can look it up or just try it in Word and marvel how you are not auto corrected.

Edit: Thank you by the way. The words should be tried to see whether they are more than just very well written!

[Finrock]

Friends,

I have created a blog. I did not want to, but as difficult as it is to format a blog, it's easier than doing it here and easier on the eyes than reading a lengthy forum post. So without further ado:

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... aimer.html

So this blog is about the sign from Revelation 12 of the crowned woman clothed with the sun that seems to occur on 9/23/2017 and how it may be related to the anointing of the Davidic Servant. Enjoy!

You wrote the following on your blog:

Joseph Smith saw the Father when he was 14—an extremely rare event that very few have experienced. What had Joseph Smith done by age 14 to have the Father revealed to him? Not a thing. He merited the right to see the Father long before his mortal ministry as Joseph Smith. At the mount of transfiguration, Peter, James, and John heard the voice of the Father but the Father himself was hidden in a cloud. The 3 chief apostles – who all appear in the temple – who in the temple are able to speak to Jehovah alone but not the father. These are the same chief three apostles who were taken further into the Garden of Eden to be in closer proximity to the Savior as He suffered for our sins. These three were not able to witness the Father’s personage—however I do believe Peter himself may have been given such a privilege (see the “7 levels” link at the beginning.)

This may not be critical to the point you are making (I haven't read the whole blog yet so I don't know if a conclusion you make is supported by this) but it is my understanding that Joseph Smith had a "vision". We call it the "First Vision". A "vision" of the Father or the Son is a different thing than the "personage" of the Father or Son coming to you. Do you believe differently? And, does it matter to your overall point?

The reason I point this out is first, Joseph Smith calls what he experienced a "heavenly vision" or a "vision" and so I think that this point is important to recognize. This would also account for the scriptures which say that not "anyone has seen the Father" and that "no man...can see" the Father. People have seen the personage of Christ, but I do not believe they have seen the personage of the Father, except it be in visions or in dreams.

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Friends,

I have created a blog. I did not want to, but as difficult as it is to format a blog, it's easier than doing it here and easier on the eyes than reading a lengthy forum post. So without further ado:

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... aimer.html

So this blog is about the sign from Revelation 12 of the crowned woman clothed with the sun that seems to occur on 9/23/2017 and how it may be related to the anointing of the Davidic Servant. Enjoy!

You stated in your blog:

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

I am unsure what verse 2 means, but I believe it is in there for a reason. There are other scriptures that may give an indication:

Isaiah 42:14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

And here is the Isaiah Institute Translation of Isaiah 42:14

Isaiah Institute Translation: Isaiah 42:14 For a long time I have been silent, keeping still and restraining myself. But now I will scream like a woman in labor and breathe hard and fast all at once.

I believe Robert Sinclair has the correct understanding as to what this means. Please consider (Robert has written a lot on this subject):

To have hope for, is not to force, but rather to have a "desire for great good soon, to come to pass", as it is written to so do. Even as a woman in travail, in childbirth, is in pain, but desires and labors, for the pain to end quickly, and the birth to come forth with great relief, and great joy. See Micah 4:10.

There is no force in hope, for the birth, and joy again of Zion.

♡ ♡

The Church in the Latter-days is Ephraim. It is Ephraim's duty, in the last days, to bring about the United Order, or Zion. In Revelations and in other scriptures, the Church is also compared to a woman in travail. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was established so that It could give birth to Zion. This verse is talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints finally, after much trial, tribulation, and waiting, to establishing or "give birth" to Zion by living the celestial law, which law is the United Order, or the Order of Melchizedek, or the Order of Enoch, or what is ultimately the Order of Jesus Christ.

See here for information: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38804&p=740077&hili ... il#p740077

-Finrock

[Finrock]

Friends,

I have created a blog. I did not want to, but as difficult as it is to format a blog, it's easier than doing it here and easier on the eyes than reading a lengthy forum post. So without further ado:

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... aimer.html

So this blog is about the sign from Revelation 12 of the crowned woman clothed with the sun that seems to occur on 9/23/2017 and how it may be related to the anointing of the Davidic Servant. Enjoy!

I really appreciated what you wrote. I have learned many things from what you've written and it has caused me to ponder and to reflect on ideas that I have not considered before. I also was not aware of the sign that is coming up later this year in the Fall. That one point/part in and of itself was worth reading your blog for. Thank you!

By-the-way, none of my comments are intended to "belittle" or "dismiss" what you have written and your conclusions. Neither did I write them so as to disprove what you have written. I think the birthing of Zion can coexist with the Davidic Servant, who's duty it will be to finally establish Zion, in a real, physical sense, not just in the "pure in heart", spiritual sense. Also, whether one sees the Father in vision or the personage of the Father appears to them is likely immaterial. The Father can accomplish what He needs to do in vision and the prophecy fulfilled as you've described even if it turns out no man has seen the personage of the Father nor can they see Him.

-Finrock

[BeNotDeceived]

Disclaimer: The purpose of this writing is to share how Revelation 12, the sign given on 9/23, and Isaiah 9:6 may all be tied together. This is not a prophecy but an interpretation of prophecy. However, if I am correct about what these signs and scriptures mean, 9/23 may come and go and none (or few) may be the wiser. This is not a convenience, as I believe some day we will all be the wiser and see eye to eye. Thus, I ask that you not take my word for anything in this piece—I do ask sincerely that you pray before reading, ponder, and then pray at the end and ask Heavenly Father in the name of Jesus Christ if these things are true.

Very well written. :ymapplause:

Double space after a period. :ymparty:

You are at least as old as I am. "They" changed that rule. Took me a while to break the habit but save your thumbs some arthritis and single space. You can look it up or just try it in Word and marvel how you are not auto corrected.

Edit: Thank you by the way. The words should be tried to see whether they are more than just very well written!

Great job on the blog; it really helps having it all organized on one page. I can see some future archeologist citing "double spaces" as a way to date certain documents. I like reading about the larger spaces every 15 - 20 words in the manuscripts that were written for the BOM. Electronic documents can encode many things not apparent on the surface,

such as this vs this

The two images look the same, yet one uses a local url and the other a global. Turns out its easy to edit the code on my MacBook, but a bit more difficult on my iPad, so I use it as a way that I can look at the code and know which device I wrote it on. If I used a local URL it was written on my Mac.

Good edit too; still trying to figure out why sometimes a post will show if a post was edited. I'll revisit your blog from time to time and try to assimilate the abundant information as it pertains to the near future. I think it was Thomas S. Monson that gave a great talk about learn from the past, plan for the future, but focus on what you can do right now towards tomorrow; this to me means seven years whereas for Moses it was more like forty years. Now 2024 looms seven years in the future, but next year it will be 2025 so on and so forth. Much will be learned in the coming months as my hopeful hypothesis is put to the test. https://www.fairmormon.org/testimonies/ ... lton-l-lee

[Gage]

Joseph said he saw 2 personages. He said God spoke to him. I know they didnt sit down and discuss the state of things over coffee and shake hands afterward but...... God is not of this world, so how else do you describe seeing, being spoke to by him other than as a "vision".

[simpleton]

Friends,

I have created a blog. I did not want to, but as difficult as it is to format a blog, it's easier than doing it here and easier on the eyes than reading a lengthy forum post. So without further ado:

http://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2 ... aimer.html

So this blog is about the sign from Revelation 12 of the crowned woman clothed with the sun that seems to occur on 9/23/2017 and how it may be related to the anointing of the Davidic Servant. Enjoy!

You stated in your blog:

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

I am unsure what verse 2 means, but I believe it is in there for a reason. There are other scriptures that may give an indication:

Isaiah 42:14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

And here is the Isaiah Institute Translation of Isaiah 42:14

Isaiah Institute Translation: Isaiah 42:14 For a long time I have been silent, keeping still and restraining myself. But now I will scream like a woman in labor and breathe hard and fast all at once.

I believe Robert Sinclair has the correct understanding as to what this means. Please consider (Robert has written a lot on this subject):

To have hope for, is not to force, but rather to have a "desire for great good soon, to come to pass", as it is written to so do. Even as a woman in travail, in childbirth, is in pain, but desires and labors, for the pain to end quickly, and the birth to come forth with great relief, and great joy. See Micah 4:10.

There is no force in hope, for the birth, and joy again of Zion.

♡ ♡

The Church in the Latter-days is Ephraim. It is Ephraim's duty, in the last days, to bring about the United Order, or Zion. In Revelations and in other scriptures, the Church is also compared to a woman in travail. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was established so that It could give birth to Zion. This verse is talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints finally, after much trial, tribulation, and waiting, to establishing or "give birth" to Zion by living the celestial law, which law is the United Order, or the Order of Melchizedek, or the Order of Enoch, or what is ultimately the Order of Jesus Christ.

See here for information: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38804&p=740077&hili ... il#p740077

-Finrock

IMOP, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has absolutely not brought forth this so called "Latter Day Zion". The attempt (or attempts) was/were made, but, all have failed.
I also agree with Roberts Sinclair's yearning for an equality amongst God's people, and that until we are one, we are not His people. ( as a whole, not individually)
I personally believe that it is that "Davidical Servant" "Davidical King" "Man Child" "One Mighty and Strong" " Righteousness" etc etc etc, ( whom i believe is one and the same) that brings forth and/or establishes the Zion of these last days.
We as a whole, have failed to establish Zion, and under existing conditions we are digressing not progressing in the matter of becoming "One".
What Alaris is addressing, is to me, the most important topic of these latterdays. And I think it is going to be the literal dividing line between the righteous and the wicked in the very near future.

For is this not speaking of us directly? And does it not describe exactly how we are?:

3rd Nephi 16. 10

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

We are most definitely not "One", we have the extremities on both ends, extremely rich and extremely poor, and yet call each other brother and sister....
We are most definitely lifted up in pride above all nations, we have rejected the Fulness of the Gospel, and yet think we are the most righteous of all people...
Just generally speaking not individually.. And I include myself in the proud category....

[Alaris]

This may not be critical to the point you are making (I haven't read the whole blog yet so I don't know if a conclusion you make is supported by this) but it is my understanding that Joseph Smith had a "vision". We call it the "First Vision". A "vision" of the Father or the Son is a different thing than the "personage" of the Father or Son coming to you. Do you believe differently? And, does it matter to your overall point?

The reason I point this out is first, Joseph Smith calls what he experienced a "heavenly vision" or a "vision" and so I think that this point is important to recognize. This would also account for the scriptures which say that not "anyone has seen the Father" and that "no man...can see" the Father. People have seen the personage of Christ, but I do not believe they have seen the personage of the Father, except it be in visions or in dreams.

-Finrock

This is a great point that bears some consideration for sure. In my Abraham 3 post (which I will bloggerize soon enough,) I believe I mention my theory that we were not in proximity to the Father during the choosing of Michael and the war in heaven. I base this on several layers of evidence, though I will admit that it is piecing together smaller bits of evidence, ponderous logic, and spiritual witness combined together.

• War cannot exist in a Celestial Sphere

• No unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God. 1 Nephi 10:21

• The Celestial Sphere where God resides is a giant Urim and Thummim where all things past, present, and future - not a soul would have rebelled if the future was present D&C 130:7

• Faith in Jesus Christ could not exist if the father was present - Alma 13:3 (Though this could be a reference to MMP)

• The Father is not present in Abraham 3 where the noble and great ones create a world and choose Michael viewtopic.php?f=31&t=43719

• The Father only speaks to Jehovah during the creation who then turns around seconds later and repeats verbatim to Michael and to Peter, James, and John.

I do believe we were created in the Father's presence but would not have had much capacity for sin. We likely then descended below one of the checkpoints which could also have been a veil that would then allow us to exercise faith in Jehovah, not having remembered the Father. There are four signs and tokens given in the temple and there were would be 4 barriers - all given at a single veil at the temple, but indicative of four veils imho.

3rd degree Celestial - The Father
4th token
2nd degree of Celestial
3rd token
1st degree of Celestial
2nd token
Terrestrial
1st token
Telestial

Each barrier could be a veil. Anyway, as we ascend I believe the father is revealed in larger, and larger degrees. The nephites in 3 Nephi 11 heard his voice but saw nothing. Peter, James, and John heard the father and saw a cloud--I believe that is highly symoblic and in fact is central to the thesis of my blog on the sign of 9/23/2017. The Davidic Servant is being born by a heavenly queen to the heavenly king - having the father revealed to him. I'm working on a blog post on The Seven Levels of Mankind - in there I will talk about how level 1 is perdition, level 2 is the world, level 3 is the church, level 4 is terrestrial, level 5 is first degree of celestial, level 6 is second, and level 7 is third. I believe as you near the top you can see and experience the father in small doses until you reach level 7 (Adam) where you can walk and talk with the Father. You do not inherit all until level 8 (Christ's exclusive level.)

Stephen's martyrdom is definitely a vision:

Acts 7: 55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

I loved quoting that scripture on my mission in Texas to evangelicals who wanted to teach me that God was one incomprehensible blob - How was God standing beside himself?

Notice how Stephen sees the glory of God and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God - we don't know what he saw, but it definitely sounds like there could have been a mask / cloud here, and it was definitely perceived from a distance as he peered into heaven rather than the Father and the Son appearing before him as Joseph Smith.

[Alaris]

You stated in your blog:

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

I am unsure what verse 2 means, but I believe it is in there for a reason. There are other scriptures that may give an indication:

Isaiah 42:14 I have long time holden my peace; I have been still, and refrained myself: now will I cry like a travailing woman; I will destroy and devour at once.

And here is the Isaiah Institute Translation of Isaiah 42:14

Isaiah Institute Translation: Isaiah 42:14 For a long time I have been silent, keeping still and restraining myself. But now I will scream like a woman in labor and breathe hard and fast all at once.

I believe Robert Sinclair has the correct understanding as to what this means. Please consider (Robert has written a lot on this subject):

To have hope for, is not to force, but rather to have a "desire for great good soon, to come to pass", as it is written to so do. Even as a woman in travail, in childbirth, is in pain, but desires and labors, for the pain to end quickly, and the birth to come forth with great relief, and great joy. See Micah 4:10.

There is no force in hope, for the birth, and joy again of Zion.

♡ ♡

The Church in the Latter-days is Ephraim. It is Ephraim's duty, in the last days, to bring about the United Order, or Zion. In Revelations and in other scriptures, the Church is also compared to a woman in travail. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was established so that It could give birth to Zion. This verse is talking about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints finally, after much trial, tribulation, and waiting, to establishing or "give birth" to Zion by living the celestial law, which law is the United Order, or the Order of Melchizedek, or the Order of Enoch, or what is ultimately the Order of Jesus Christ.

See here for information: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38804&p=740077&hili ... il#p740077

-Finrock

I thought I stated in my blog that the birth has two layers of meaning (if not I'll need to edit.) It is the Kingdom of God / ZION but it is also the birth of the Davidic King. One of my theses of the seven dispensation heads is they each demonstrate to the beings of their level how to overcome. This is the sixth level to overcome:

Revelation 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Proverbs 9:1 Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

Seven pillars ... seven dispensations ... seven archangels. The second dispensation is Enoch who demonstrates to the 6th order how to build ZION. These are the 144,000 whose job it is to build ZION who have the seal of the Father in their foreheads. It's sealed because it's not opened until they overcome their level whereupon they will receive "the name of my God" from the Lord Jesus Christ. We all know Elohim is not his actual name - the word means "Gods."

It is my deeply held belief based off pearls I have not revealed here that the Davidic Servant is the chief or lord of the seraphim - the six-winged angels of Isaiah 6. As such, I believe he is the 8th being in authority on earth, just after the dispensation heads, and has not been a part of their order - the order of seven - until now. He is being "birthed" into their order. He will follow Enoch's example (and indeed will have the help of the 144,000 who will likely be comprised of both angels and men which is a quote from Joseph Smith I've placed elsewhere on LDSFF that I can again here if anyone request) and build ZION. Enoch built ZION at the last of the first millennium. The Davidic Servant will build ZION at the first of the last millennium. He will have more help than Enoch had or so it appears given Joseph Smith's quote - a slight handicap to a slightly less illumined being, and once he is finished, Enoch himself appears with his city to say, "Nice job. I think we'll join you now and present together our bride to the bridgegroom." The bride is ZION. The fact the promise of "new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God" is given in the sixth use of overcometh is not a coincidence. This IS the promised reward for overcoming level six and the Davidic Servant will be the first to do in our creation in my humble opinion.

Edit: I forgot to add this bit about Ephraim - I totally agree! Ephraim is the birthright tribe and has always been the birthright tribe. The throne and kingdom of David was given to Jeroboam by the LORD who was righteous for a time and then the northern kingdom quickly descended into wickedness. Both the root and the rod in D&C 113 are of Judah and Joseph - only the rod is explicitly stated to be of Ephraim whereas the root is of Joseph. These two latter-day servants unite all twelve tribes. I believe the rod, or the Davidic Servant, has both birthrights in his blood.

Edit Edit: I just learned yesterday that David was the 8th son of Jesse. Not a coincidence.

Edit Edit Edit: Enoch had a handicap against him and was slow of speech. There is evidence the Davidic Servant will have a handicap for him in this regard:

Isaiah 50:4 The Lord God hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned.

[Alaris]

IMOP, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has absolutely not brought forth this so called "Latter Day Zion". The attempt (or attempts) was/were made, but, all have failed.
I also agree with Roberts Sinclair's yearning for an equality amongst God's people, and that until we are one, we are not His people. ( as a whole, not individually)
I personally believe that it is that "Davidical Servant" "Davidical King" "Man Child" "One Mighty and Strong" " Righteousness" etc etc etc, ( whom i believe is one and the same) that brings forth and/or establishes the Zion of these last days.
We as a whole, have failed to establish Zion, and under existing conditions we are digressing not progressing in the matter of becoming "One".
What Alaris is addressing, is to me, the most important topic of these latterdays. And I think it is going to be the literal dividing line between the righteous and the wicked in the very near future.

For is this not speaking of us directly? And does it not describe exactly how we are?:

3rd Nephi 16. 10

And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.

12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.

13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

14 And I will not suffer my people, who are of the house of Israel, to go through among them, and tread them down, saith the Father.

15 But if they will not turn unto me, and hearken unto my voice, I will suffer them, yea, I will suffer my people, O house of Israel, that they shall go through among them, and shall tread them down, and they shall be as salt that hath lost its savor, which is thenceforth good for nothing but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of my people, O house of Israel.

We are most definitely not "One", we have the extremities on both ends, extremely rich and extremely poor, and yet call each other brother and sister....
We are most definitely lifted up in pride above all nations, we have rejected the Fulness of the Gospel, and yet think we are the most righteous of all people...
Just generally speaking not individually.. And I include myself in the proud category....

Firstly, thank you for the post!

Secondly, I believe the gentiles are given a chance to join Israel in every Earth and in every creation whereupon they ascend and become part of Israel and then must demostrate obedience (Moses) sacrifice (Abraham) and then if they prove faithful they partake in the Abrahamic Covenant and are inheritors. I mentioned in my reply to Finrock that I believe each dispensation head demonstrates the ultimate example to their level. For the longest time I could not decipher how Joseph Smith demonstrated to level 1 beings how to overcome the test of perdition - meaning you either overcome and raise your arm to the square to vote to sustain the plan of the Father as presented by the Son or you choose to rebel. However I believe I recently deciphered this by what you mentioned. We didn't fail to build ZION. Joseph Smith failed to build ZION. And that was part of the plan!

To understand why Joseph Smith had to fail is to understand why beings rebel and how this is an example to them. Joseph Smith was commanded to build ZION in Missouri - and failed. Was it really the wickedness of the saints of his day that thwarted God's plan for his people? Nope. Joseph Smith said this,

the throne & kingdom of David is to be taken from him & given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage. ~
Joseph Smith

The kingdom of David would have been much easier to establish if Joseph Smith succeeded in building ZION himself first right? But this is prophecy! As we study about the Davidic Servant it becomes more and more clear that it is his duty to gather Israel and reign over them as their Davidic King - isn't that what Joseph Smith is saying above? But Joseph was commanded to gather the saints and build ZION, right?

Level one beings are ultimately afraid of failure. They are jealous when a younger soul acquires more light than they do. (This principle is demonstrated explicitly where just about every prophet you can think of is a younger brother. I also believe this is why Lucifer fell, and there is an awesome Old Testament Pseudepigrapha that reinforces this.) Joseph Smith will have demonstrated overcoming both of these. His failure to bring ZION will be accomplished by a younger soul. He may grit his teeth a bit, but ultimately his job is to demonstrate how to overcome failure and jealousy with a smile (even if you hear a little grinding sound.)

Edit: Here's that Old Testament Pseudepigrapha

And the devil sighed and said. "O Adam, all my enmity and envy and sorrow concern you, since because of you I am expelled and deprived of my glory which I had in the heavens in the midst of angels, and because of you I was cast out onto the earth." Adam answered, "What have I done to you, and what is my blame with you? Since you are neither harmed nor hurt by us, why do you pursue us?"

The devil replied, "Adam, what are you telling me? It is because of you that I have been thrown out of there. When you were created, I was cast out from the presence of God and was sent out from the fellowship of the angels. When God blew into you the breath of life and your countenance and likeness were made in the image of God, Michael brought you and made (us) worship [sustain] you in the sight of God, and the LORD God said, 'Behold Adam! I have made you in our image and likeness.'

And Michael went out and called all the angels, saying, 'Worship [sustain] the image of the LORD God, as the LORD God has instructed.' And Michael himself worshiped [sustained] first, and called me and said, "Worship [sustain] the image of God, Yahweh.' And I answered, 'I do not worship [sustain] Adam.' And when Michael kept forcing me to worship [sustain], I said to him, 'Why do you compel me? I will not worship [sustain] one inferior and subsequent to me. I am prior to him in creation; before he was made, I was already made. He ought to worship [sustain] me.'

When they heard this, other angels who were under me refused to worship [sustain] him. And Michael asserted, 'Worship [sustain] the image of God. But if now you will not worship [sustain], the LORD God will be wrathful with you.' And I said, 'If he be wrathful with me, I will set my throne above the stars of heaven and will be like the Most High.'

And the LORD God was angry with me and sent me with my angels out from our glory; and because of you, we were expelled into this world from our dwellings and have been cast onto the earth. And immediately we were made to grieve, since we had been deprived of so great glory. And we were pained to see you in such bliss of delights. So with deceit I assailed your wife and made you to be expelled through her from the joys of your bliss, as I have been expelled from my glory." James H. Charlesworth, The Old testament Pseudepigrapha 2:262 (emphasis in original, words in brackets added) I also pulled this from eldenwatson.net - http://eldenwatson.net/1Creation.htm

[Rensai]

Alaris, thanks for sharing that. I'm still pondering your post, but I really appreciate you taking the time to write that up and share it.

[Alaris]

Alaris, thanks for sharing that. I'm still pondering your post, but I really appreciate you taking the time to write that up and share it.

I added the following scripture to demonstrate the Enoch too was caught up into the bosom of the father before ZION was fled:

Moses 7:24 And there came generation upon generation; and Enoch was high and lifted up, even in the bosom of the Father, and of the Son of Man; and behold, the power of Satan was upon all the face of the earth.

I also added a beautiful painting at the beginning with permission from the artist. She asked that I leave the watermark, but you can still see what a nice piece it is.

https://www.revelationillustrated.com/album.php?ID=1#

It's in the center, 7th image down from the top titled "The Woman and The Dragon."

[Rensai]

Hey Alaris,

I've been looking into this and the JST version of revelations 12 and 19 really ruin the whole theory. I'm still grateful that you posted it though, it gave me a lot to think about. Here's a couple verses that show my point.

7 And the dragon prevailed not against michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains and brought forth the kingdom of God and his Christ.

See what he's saying there? The child, is the kingdom of God. Its talking about bringing forth Zion and Christs Millenial reign. The sign is about Christ, as all the signs have been.

Now look at the JST for revelations 19 for a bit more info.

15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of God, and with it he will smite the nations; and he will rule them with the word of his mouth; and he treadeth the wine-press in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
• • •

21 And the remnant were slain with the word of him that sat upon the horse, which word proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The Iron rod was changed to "Word of God" in the JST version, so just like BoM, Iron Rod refer's to the word of God and it is Christ who shall rule by the word of God.


http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/140

The woman the Church, the child [the kingdom of God], the rod of iron [the word of God]

I'm still not sure what to make of the sign. I want to study and pray more,but right now I'm thinking it marks the beginning of the work to build the kingdom of God (deliver the man child). I don't know how he'll do that or what the first steps will be, but if the sign is true, then I think it'll mark the beginning of that work in some way.

[Alaris]

Hey Alaris,

I've been looking into this and the JST version of revelations 12 and 19 really ruin the whole theory. I'm still grateful that you posted it though, it gave me a lot to think about. Here's a couple verses that show my point.

7 And the dragon prevailed not against michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains and brought forth the kingdom of God and his Christ.

See what he's saying there? The child, is the kingdom of God. Its talking about bringing forth Zion and Christs Millenial reign. The sign is about Christ, as all the signs have been.

Now look at the JST for revelations 19 for a bit more info.

15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of God, and with it he will smite the nations; and he will rule them with the word of his mouth; and he treadeth the wine-press in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
• • •

21 And the remnant were slain with the word of him that sat upon the horse, which word proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The Iron rod was changed to "Word of God" in the JST version, so just like BoM, Iron Rod refer's to the word of God and it is Christ who shall rule by the word of God.


http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/140

The woman the Church, the child [the kingdom of God], the rod of iron [the word of God]

I'm still not sure what to make of the sign. I want to study and pray more,but right now I'm thinking it marks the beginning of the work to build the kingdom of God (deliver the man child). I don't know how he'll do that or what the first steps will be, but if the sign is true, then I think it'll mark the beginning of that work in some way.

I hear what you're saying, I do. However who is the king of "the kingdom of God?"

"the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage" (TPJS, p. 339)

So if there is going to be a latter day King David who received both the throne and kingdom of David by the name of David, raised up out of his lineage ... then why would this be outside of the birthing of .. um the Kingdom of David? If that is indeed what this is. ;)

If I remember correctly, Revelation 19 is all about the Lord Jesus Christ - not the Davidic Servant - The King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. I also believe Revelation 19 is sequentially later than 12 and after the two witnesses are commanded to "come up hither."

The biggest hole in my theory is the JST in Revelation 12 changes the days to years for the duration the woman is hidden in the wilderness. However, just after that verse we are presented with what appears to be the war in heaven where Michael casts out the dragon who draws a third part of the stars to the earth. There could certainly be layers of meaning, but this almost seems like a reverse chronology. For example, the kingdom of God is birthed after the woman was nourished and the dragon was cast down before that. It certainly is mysterious!

Here is the full JST for Revelation 12:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst- ... ang=eng#p1

Here are the verses below, but sadly I do not have time to italicize the changed / added words. You'll have to view the above url for that specificity.

Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.
4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.
5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.
6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;
7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.
9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;
10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child.
14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.
17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Wow even the flood is mentioned. Forget reverse chronology, John goes all over the place. Still I do feel 9/23 is both the sign given in the first few verses, and that it does pertain both to the kingdom of God on earth and its king.

[Rensai]

Hey Alaris,

I've been looking into this and the JST version of revelations 12 and 19 really ruin the whole theory. I'm still grateful that you posted it though, it gave me a lot to think about. Here's a couple verses that show my point.

7 And the dragon prevailed not against michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains and brought forth the kingdom of God and his Christ.

See what he's saying there? The child, is the kingdom of God. Its talking about bringing forth Zion and Christs Millenial reign. The sign is about Christ, as all the signs have been.

Now look at the JST for revelations 19 for a bit more info.

15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of God, and with it he will smite the nations; and he will rule them with the word of his mouth; and he treadeth the wine-press in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
• • •

21 And the remnant were slain with the word of him that sat upon the horse, which word proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The Iron rod was changed to "Word of God" in the JST version, so just like BoM, Iron Rod refer's to the word of God and it is Christ who shall rule by the word of God.


http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/140

The woman the Church, the child [the kingdom of God], the rod of iron [the word of God]

I'm still not sure what to make of the sign. I want to study and pray more,but right now I'm thinking it marks the beginning of the work to build the kingdom of God (deliver the man child). I don't know how he'll do that or what the first steps will be, but if the sign is true, then I think it'll mark the beginning of that work in some way.

I hear what you're saying, I do. However who is the king of "the kingdom of God?"

"the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage" (TPJS, p. 339)

So if there is going to be a latter day King David who received both the throne and kingdom of David by the name of David, raised up out of his lineage ... then why would this be outside of the birthing of .. um the Kingdom of David? If that is indeed what this is. ;)

If I remember correctly, Revelation 19 is all about the Lord Jesus Christ - not the Davidic Servant - The King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. I also believe Revelation 19 is sequentially later than 12 and after the two witnesses are commanded to "come up hither."

The biggest hole in my theory is the JST in Revelation 12 changes the days to years for the duration the woman is hidden in the wilderness. However, just after that verse we are presented with what appears to be the war in heaven where Michael casts out the dragon who draws a third part of the stars to the earth. There could certainly be layers of meaning, but this almost seems like a reverse chronology. For example, the kingdom of God is birthed after the woman was nourished and the dragon was cast down before that. It certainly is mysterious!

Here is the full JST for Revelation 12:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst- ... ang=eng#p1

Here are the verses below, but sadly I do not have time to italicize the changed / added words. You'll have to view the above url for that specificity.

Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.
4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.
5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.
6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;
7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.
9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;
10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child.
14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.
17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Wow even the flood is mentioned. Forget reverse chronology, John goes all over the place. Still I do feel 9/23 is both the sign given in the first few verses, and that it does pertain both to the kingdom of God on earth and its king.

Yeah its pretty jumbled up and hard to understand. I'm still not sure how the part about the dragon fits in with the sign either. Anyway, I agree rev 19 is talking about Christ, but I brought that up because in your blog post you said:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Coincidentally, or not, Revelation 19:15-16 are referring to both the Lord Jesus Christ and his end times’ servant – the rod of iron (Isaiah 11 and Revelation 12.) The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord and King over worlds without number. He Himself will not be sitting and ruling this world – His dominion is worlds. However, He will rule with a rod of iron - the same language as in Revelation 12:5. The woman bringing forth a child to rule makes zero sense if this is alluding to Christ Himself. The child is a symbol of someone who is birthed into a new order--someone new to ruling.

I'm saying that JST states that the rod of iron is the word of God, not the end times servant, and rev 19 clearly talks about Christ and applies that to him alone as far as I can tell. Isaiah 11 describes him in almost identical words, smiting the wicked with the rod of his mouth, etc. I'm just saying that to me it looks like the Millennial king will be Christ himself not the servant, who will rule with the iron rod (word of God). I disagree that rev 19:15-16 applies to anyone but Christ. I don't see any hint that it applies to anyone else. Is there anything that clearly shows their will be a millennial king other than Christ? There's definitely an end times servant, I'm just not sure I've seen anything that has me convinced he will become an actual king in the millennium. To me, the child = the kingdom of God, which was created/birthed by Christs' Church, and Christ himself will rule in the millennium by the word of God. I just don't see how the servant fits in in any of this stuff.

So if I can sidetrack a little here, what are your thoughts about the verses on the dragon and Michael in rev 12? How do you think those fit in? Something I read in the JST version made me think it is talking about michael binding Satan up for the millennium but its all pretty confusing. And since you brought it up, what are your thoughts on the change from days to years? That threw me for a loop. Is it talking about the duration of the millennium?

[Alaris]

Hey Alaris,

I've been looking into this and the JST version of revelations 12 and 19 really ruin the whole theory. I'm still grateful that you posted it though, it gave me a lot to think about. Here's a couple verses that show my point.

7 And the dragon prevailed not against michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains and brought forth the kingdom of God and his Christ.

See what he's saying there? The child, is the kingdom of God. Its talking about bringing forth Zion and Christs Millenial reign. The sign is about Christ, as all the signs have been.

Now look at the JST for revelations 19 for a bit more info.

15 And out of his mouth proceedeth the word of God, and with it he will smite the nations; and he will rule them with the word of his mouth; and he treadeth the wine-press in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
• • •

21 And the remnant were slain with the word of him that sat upon the horse, which word proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

The Iron rod was changed to "Word of God" in the JST version, so just like BoM, Iron Rod refer's to the word of God and it is Christ who shall rule by the word of God.


http://classic.scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/140

The woman the Church, the child [the kingdom of God], the rod of iron [the word of God]

I'm still not sure what to make of the sign. I want to study and pray more,but right now I'm thinking it marks the beginning of the work to build the kingdom of God (deliver the man child). I don't know how he'll do that or what the first steps will be, but if the sign is true, then I think it'll mark the beginning of that work in some way.

I hear what you're saying, I do. However who is the king of "the kingdom of God?"

"the throne and kingdom of David is to be taken from him and given to another by the name of David in the last days, raised up out of his lineage" (TPJS, p. 339)

So if there is going to be a latter day King David who received both the throne and kingdom of David by the name of David, raised up out of his lineage ... then why would this be outside of the birthing of .. um the Kingdom of David? If that is indeed what this is. ;)

If I remember correctly, Revelation 19 is all about the Lord Jesus Christ - not the Davidic Servant - The King of Kings, and Lord of Lords. I also believe Revelation 19 is sequentially later than 12 and after the two witnesses are commanded to "come up hither."

The biggest hole in my theory is the JST in Revelation 12 changes the days to years for the duration the woman is hidden in the wilderness. However, just after that verse we are presented with what appears to be the war in heaven where Michael casts out the dragon who draws a third part of the stars to the earth. There could certainly be layers of meaning, but this almost seems like a reverse chronology. For example, the kingdom of God is birthed after the woman was nourished and the dragon was cast down before that. It certainly is mysterious!

Here is the full JST for Revelation 12:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/jst/jst- ... ang=eng#p1

Here are the verses below, but sadly I do not have time to italicize the changed / added words. You'll have to view the above url for that specificity.

Revelation 12
1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.
4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.
5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.
6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;
7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.
8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into the earth; and his angels were cast out with him.
9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;
10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.
12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child.
14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.
17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Wow even the flood is mentioned. Forget reverse chronology, John goes all over the place. Still I do feel 9/23 is both the sign given in the first few verses, and that it does pertain both to the kingdom of God on earth and its king.

Yeah its pretty jumbled up and hard to understand. I'm still not sure how the part about the dragon fits in with the sign either. Anyway, I agree rev 19 is talking about Christ, but I brought that up because in your blog post you said:

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Coincidentally, or not, Revelation 19:15-16 are referring to both the Lord Jesus Christ and his end times’ servant – the rod of iron (Isaiah 11 and Revelation 12.) The Lord Jesus Christ is Lord and King over worlds without number. He Himself will not be sitting and ruling this world – His dominion is worlds. However, He will rule with a rod of iron - the same language as in Revelation 12:5. The woman bringing forth a child to rule makes zero sense if this is alluding to Christ Himself. The child is a symbol of someone who is birthed into a new order--someone new to ruling.

I'm saying that JST states that the rod of iron is the word of God, not the end times servant, and rev 19 clearly talks about Christ and applies that to him alone as far as I can tell. Isaiah 11 describes him in almost identical words, smiting the wicked with the rod of his mouth, etc. I'm just saying that to me it looks like the Millennial king will be Christ himself not the servant, who will rule with the iron rod (word of God). I disagree that rev 19:15-16 applies to anyone but Christ. I don't see any hint that it applies to anyone else. Is there anything that clearly shows their will be a millennial king other than Christ? There's definitely an end times servant, I'm just not sure I've seen anything that has me convinced he will become an actual king in the millennium. To me, the child = the kingdom of God, which was created/birthed by Christs' Church, and Christ himself will rule in the millennium by the word of God. I just don't see how the servant fits in in any of this stuff.

So if I can sidetrack a little here, what are your thoughts about the verses on the dragon and Michael in rev 12? How do you think those fit in?

Well it's possible the Davidic Servant's reign ends at or before the millennium starts. I have opined in other threads he is one of the two witnesses as there are a few verses that all tie together and make a case.

I do think Christ will come in full authority but I don't believe He will be sitting on a throne on our world for a thousand years. We don't know how many worlds are under His domain or how He rules them all, but it seems sitting in one place is beneath His purpose.

The Dragon is also a wonder in heaven. If it occurs in close proximity to 9/23 then it's likely something we can't forecast like the woman clothed with the sun and the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars. I have no strong thoughts on the matter but may be indeed an anomaly hidden at this time.

Thanks for the questions and serious consideration.

[SmallFarm]

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

The October Draconids, in the past also unofficially known as the Giacobinids, are a meteor shower whose parent body is the periodic comet 21P/Giacobini-Zinner. They are named after the constellation Draco, where they seemingly come from.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draconids
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draco_(constellation)

[Alaris]

Here is another great video by an evangelical who has discovered some great signs but sadly does not have the keys of the fulness to unlock these truths.

https://youtu.be/5vSqP_oZ7Ps

I had watched another 9/23 video and noticed that the Sun, mercury, and venus all eclipse Jupiter in short order after 9/23. I did not realize Mars also eclipses as the first video cut off.

This video above discusses possible meanings and ties the three planets to three messengers in Revelation 14 though I'm not sure Rev 14 aligns especially since Venus is the bright and morning star with which Jesus Himself identifies at the end of Revelation, and the second messenger basically says, "Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication." That doesn't seem like the Lord of Lords would have that message but would delegate that one.

I believe Mercury may be John. Venus is Jesus and Michael is likely Mars indeed.

The YouTuber above discusses the signs where the messengers follow which is also very interesting. Libra which is scales is one of these constellations... Scales representing God's judgements and the calling of the Davidic Servant being one of judgement rather than mercy. There is another sign of a man wrestling with a snake that the YouTuber associates with Michael and I think he is right. Michael imprisons the snake at the end of temporal period so the millennium may come commence.

[Alaris]

So my heart has been saddened by the Latter-day Saints who are so ready to dismiss the Eclipse on 8/21. As I have learned new lines, new precepts, and new truths, one thing which has surprised me is how many layers upon layers of symbols there are everywhere. I was going to mention the rainbow as one of many signs of the seven levels of mankind--however as I wrote that blog I discovered so many new beautiful layers that have expanded and reinforced my understanding.

With all this in mind I came across Ether 4:16 in my studies yesterday. Moroni makes commentary to us throughout Ether. In chapter 4 the word of the Lord goes to Moroni who inserts basically a commentary by the Lord to us.

Ether 4: 4 Behold, I have written upon these plates the very things which the brother of Jared saw; and there never were greater things made manifest than those which were made manifest unto the brother of Jared.
5 Wherefore the Lord hath commanded me to write them; and I have written them. And he commanded me that I should seal them up; and he also hath commanded that I should seal up the interpretation thereof; wherefore I have sealed up the interpreters, according to the commandment of the Lord.
6 For the Lord said unto me: They shall not go forth unto the Gentiles until the day that they shall repent of their iniquity, and become clean before the Lord.
7 And in that day that they shall exercise faith in me, saith the Lord, even as the brother of Jared did, that they may become sanctified in me, then will I manifest unto them the things which the brother of Jared saw, even to the unfolding unto them all my revelations, saith Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of the heavens and of the earth, and all things that in them are.
8 And he that will contend against the word of the Lord, let him be accursed; and he that shall deny these things, let him be accursed; for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh.
9 And at my command the heavens are opened and are shut; and at my word the earth shall shake; and at my command the inhabitants thereof shall pass away, even so as by fire.
10 And he that believeth not my words believeth not my disciples; and if it so be that I do not speak, judge ye; for ye shall know that it is I that speaketh, at the last day.
11 But he that believeth these things which I have spoken, him will I visit with the manifestations of my Spirit, and he shall know and bear record. For because of my Spirit he shall know that these things are true; for it persuadeth men to do good.
12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that leadeth men to all good; he that will not believe my words will not believe me—that I am; and he that will not believe me will not believe the Father who sent me. For behold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.
13 Come unto me, O ye Gentiles, and I will show unto you the greater things, the knowledge which is hid up because of unbelief.

So verses 6-13 are the Lord speaking to the gentiles and promising them if they will receive and believe they will then receive all the sealed revelations of the brother of Jared.

Side note: Verse 13 reminds me of the quote from Joseph Smith about unbelief.

When men open their lips against [the truth] they do not injure me, but injure themselves. … When things that are of the greatest importance are passed over by weak-minded men without even a thought, I want to see truth in all its bearings and hug it to my bosom. I believe all that God ever revealed, and I never hear of a man being damned for believing too much; but they are damned for unbelief. ~ Joseph Smith

So now the Lord speaks to Israel in the next verse:

Ether 4:14 Come unto me, O ye house of Israel, and it shall be made manifest unto you how great things the Father hath laid up for you, from the foundation of the world; and it hath not come unto you, because of unbelief.
15 Behold, when ye shall rend that veil of unbelief which doth cause you to remain in your awful state of wickedness, and hardness of heart, and blindness of mind, then shall the great and marvelous things which have been hid up from the foundation of the world from you—yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.
17 Therefore, when ye shall receive this record ye may know that the work of the Father has commenced upon all the face of the land.
18 Therefore, repent all ye ends of the earth, and come unto me, and believe in my gospel, and be baptized in my name; for he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned; and signs shall follow them that believe in my name.
19 And blessed is he that is found faithful unto my name at the last day, for he shall be lifted up to dwell in the kingdom prepared for him from the foundation of the world. And behold it is I that hath spoken it. Amen.

The spirit touched me deeply upon reading verse 16 that the revelations which John had written will be unfolded in the eyes of all the people ... when we see them we shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in deed. The spirit confirmed to me that this is at the very least a confirmation that 9/23 is a sign to all and that it is a sign that the "time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed"--meaning that we first see, we believe, then the confirmation comes which is reinforced in verse 18. Faith is still an important element to the signs of the Book of Revelation. Those without faith both within and without Israel will not know. Verse 15 gives the requirements - the prerequisites to know that God hath remembered the covenant to gather Israel.

[Seek the Truth]

I don't think that you can have Zion unless everyone is gardening.

[Red]

Alaris,

I haven't finished reading your blog post yet. Do you suppose that the eclipse on 8/21, (totality over Independence, MO, kind of amusing) and the Geminid meteor shower in December followed by a lunar eclipse Jan 2018 mean anything? The Geminid shower has become more brilliant every year. It also comes from an asteroid (3200 Phaethon) of undetermined origin. The asteroid itself is considered to be a PHA, potentially hazardous asteroid because it passes so close to the sun. The orbit is also unusual. Phaethon is also in a class of asteroid that is uncommon. Everything about the asteroid and the Geminid shower is unusual and noteworthy.

It has been interesting to observe, for sure.

[Crackers]

Thanks for your info, Alaris. I haven't had time for the whole thing yet, but I find this stuff fascinating. I agree that these events in the heavens are likely intended to be signs for us, but that they do not necessarily portend impending doom. I don't expect anything drastic to happen on any particular date, but I do think we have been adequately advised that these signs are for a reason, and that we should be watching. If I remember, a solar eclipse is thought to be a sign of judgement, and the fact that this last one covered the USA from coast to coast is noteworthy.