Is Assyria Russia?

[pjbrownie]

I have been reading Book of Mormon Isaiah with new eyes, and I see Assyria as more than just Assyria. I think it may be Russia and/or China (The Philistines) This latter-day Assyrian empire will:

1. Enter into a consipracy with America's (defined as the latter-day Israel or Zion) brotherly enemy. I see this enemy as being America itself in conflict with itself (Ephraim representing Washington DC, Judah being the Saints) or a European "brother" that enters into a consipracy to stab us in the back.

2. Then turn on the conspirators and utterly destroy them.

3. They will not harm the Saints of God (Judah) because God will then smite Assyria (Russia, China) and they will withdraw in defeat.

4. Then end of the sixth seal, a massive earthquake, will contribute to their destruction and defeat.

So, am I off base? Is there other scriptoral or modern prophetic evidence to suggest that Assyria IS Russia and that I'm interpreting Israel correctly, or is it ONLY the wider vision of ancient Israel being established after they are afflicted by the Romans and Middle Age Europeans before the light of the gospel shines forth (this is standard LDS doctrine in the manuals, BTW).

Is there a double meaning and is there evidence for it?

Thoughts?

[jbalm]

Mark will be along shortly to answer this question.

[Mark]

JB you crack me up Bro.

[jbalm]

Well...?

Come on Mark. This question is tailor made for you.

[ShawnC]

I have been reading Book of Mormon Isaiah with new eyes, and I see Assyria as more than just Assyria. I think it may be Russia and/or China (The Philistines) This latter-day Assyrian empire will:

1. Enter into a consipracy with America's (defined as the latter-day Israel or Zion) brotherly enemy. I see this enemy as being America itself in conflict with itself (Ephraim representing Washington DC, Judah being the Saints) or a European "brother" that enters into a consipracy to stab us in the back.

2. Then turn on the conspirators and utterly destroy them.

3. They will not harm the Saints of God (Judah) because God will then smite Assyria (Russia, China) and they will withdraw in defeat.

4. Then end of the sixth seal, a massive earthquake, will contribute to their destruction and defeat.

So, am I off base? Is there other scriptoral or modern prophetic evidence to suggest that Assyria IS Russia and that I'm interpreting Israel correctly, or is it ONLY the wider vision of ancient Israel being established after they are afflicted by the Romans and Middle Age Europeans before the light of the gospel shines forth (this is standard LDS doctrine in the manuals, BTW).

Is there a double meaning and is there evidence for it?

Thoughts?

Sounds somewhat reasonable. My studies of the Isaiah point me in this direction. Gileadi says that Egypt refers to these United States. Looks to be pretty accurate.

Shawn

[pjbrownie]

The Gospel Dostrine manuel is silent about it. Not sure if on purpose, or just giving the basic interpretation. I don't know if Isaiah makes sense if you are contantly switching from prophecies of Ancient Israel to modern Israel. For example, on one hand, he's talking about the destruction of ancient Ephraim, then the coming of the Savior "counsellor, governoer, the Mighty God, etc." This can only make sense it the Assyria and Ephraim talked about are a modern type of ancient peoples. The only caveat would be if Isaiah is deliberately swiching back and forth in order to fulfill the edict to be confusing as he was commanded. Reading it as if it is a modern-day discussion of WWIII and the aftermath establishing the Millennium makes Isaiah make so much sense I'll never read it the same way again.

I just want to make sure I'm not over-interpreting it. It is a BIG DEAL if I'm overinterpreting this, Revelations, and Daniel. The semi-official LDS interpretation of biblical futurist prophecy is a more pre-millennial historicism, which means that tribulation periods relate to the Great Apostasy and not to some future 3 1/2 years that happen right before (which is a more evangelical interpretation anyway). In the historicism case, the tribulation has already ocurred, and we're just waiting for a massive earthquake to be our only set-up for the New Jerusalem. It means that we kind of glide on into the Millennium because Joseph Smith comes, restores and Ensign to the nations, and the child plays with the snake, the Lion and the Lamb, and Jesus dwells in his holy mountain--no record of a massive destruction among the Church. It already happened, we ARE the remnant, and we're just waiting for the Earthquake, New Jerusalem, Armageddon, the two Temples.

Does the Lord really set his hand a second time to recover His people and do the Bible interpretations have a secondary meaning as I believe they do (on one hand eon-spanning historical, and on the other hand, literal and quick just prior to the advent)?

Any rebuttals to the above paragraph, I would like in scripture or modern prophets (no semi officio visions here).

[pjbrownie]

By the way, in reading it again, I think Ephraim is England, the American Gadiantions, Syria is Germany, and Assyria is Russia. Assyria seems to come and catch the conspirators by surprise as they plan to usurp Judah (America).

This makes sense if you view the Rothschild factions as being German by ancestroy and English by citizenship.

[ShawnC]

If you haven't read the Gileadi books about Isaiah, you may consider those. They cover quite well much of these exact things.

Shawn

[ldsff]

I found this map

[jbalm]

Well, pj, I was trying to let Mark reply because this is one of his favorite topics, but apparently he's being shy.

If I remember correctly, though, he agrees with you. But I'm not familiar enough with it to elaborate.

[Captain Moroni]

Jbum, why don't you get off Mark's back and add some wisdom and insights for at least ONCE??? Geez I just realized that maybe that's an impossible request. Maybe you don't have any wisdom, just putdowns??

I agree with Shawn that Gileadi has a many great insights on Gog and Magog and the types and shadows of last days events spoken of by Isaiah. Great, thoughtful reads.

[jbalm]

Jbum, why don't you get off Mark's back and add some wisdom and insights for at least ONCE??? Geez I just realized that maybe that's an impossible request. Maybe you don't have any wisdom, just putdowns??

I didn't put anyone down.

But I will now.

You're a strange, combative little man. You have poor reading comprehension, and you're a stalker.

And I bet you have somewhere in the neighborhood of 20-30 cats.

[Col. Flagg]

Come on guys, we're all in the same fight together... we need unity, not contention.

[Captain Moroni]

Colonel WADR I don't see ebum in this fight with us at all??? I see him constantly take potshots at people who are in this battle.

Unity means one has common goals. Mine are NOT to putdown people to get my kicks. IF I'm wrong about ebum, let him post something positive and of real value to our forum. I have yet to see this since joining Oct 1st.

[Mark]

Its obvious Cap that you have gotten your feelings hurt here dealing with my Brothers from different mothers. Let me give you just a bit of friendly advice for what its worth. The reason I like to post here and go back and forth with others is because it gives me an outlet to express my thoughts and feelings about things not often discussed in other settings. If I am quick to take offense and start becoming offended at what someone may say that I don't agree with it will strangle the discussions and drive away any chances of learning. Lighten up on the attitude and allow people the chance to express thoughts openly and without offense being taken. Don't take these discussions so seriously as many are done light heartedly. With all the crap in the world that we have to deal with don't make enemies of those who you may have to turn to and trust in the days ahead.

[Captain Moroni]

Mark, I can take GOOD NATURED ribbing from my brothers and sisters. as well as dish it out.

Ebum as far as I can see is a very sadistic person. I apprecaite your desire to be a peacemaker. I appreciate the perpective you bring to our forums. I do read and ponder upon many of your posts although I don't always agree with the conclusions you reach. IF I did, I would be shocked, wouldn't you?

I love lightness at times BUT IMO latter day events that are rapidly unfolding aren't very funny and to be taken lightly. I don't find many saints that seek out the meat of the Gospel. That is NOT true here.

[Mark]

Now back to the discussion topic I think you are on the right track here PJ about Assyria and Egypt/Ephraim. I have discussed this in detail in the past without a lot of interest so i am a bit reserved to go that route again. Gileadi's Book of Isaiah is good to reference along with other articles and books such as Bruce R. McConkie, "Ten Keys to Understanding Isaiah," Ensign 3 (1973): 78-83. Victor L. Ludlow, Isaiah: Prophet, Seer, Poet (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1982), 7-18; Monte S. Nyman, Great Are the Words of Isaiah (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1980), 8-14.

I do look for the Assyrian king to emerge in full glory with great power and force given him to conquer many nations. Ephraimite nations to drunk to recognise this great threat will be trodden underfoot by this amazing force. The reason I like Nyquist writings a lot (just ask JB) is because he identifies these Assyrian forces so well in his articles about the Shanghai Cooperative Organization consisting of an unholy alliance between Russia and China and their allies North Korea and Iran etc etc. This upcoming battle is classic wicked punishing the wicked until the Lords righteous remnant are sufficiently humbled to be used for His righteous purposes in the redemption of Zion. Those days of humbling are at our doorstep imo.

[jbalm]

Mark, do you post over on Nyquist's forum?

I've seen some posts over there that seem like they could be yours.

[Mark]

I do at times JB but not that often anymore. I battled with some anti-LDS posters a while back and it kind of soured me a bit. Besides who has time after posting here on the only true and living forum (speaking collectively of course and not individually).

[ShawnC]

I do at times JB but not that often anymore. I battled with some anti-LDS posters a while back and it kind of soured me a bit. Besides who has time after posting here on the only true and living forum (speaking collectively of course and not individually).

Maybe the J in jbalm is for "Jim"?

[Mark]

Maybe the J in jbalm is for "Jim"?

You could be right Shawn but I could swear that I read somewhere that he signed off as @#!!$#!%. I could be a bit confused here though so don't quote me on that.

[pjbrownie]

Mark, I have spent literally tens of hours over the past week--sleepless nights pouring over Isaiah trying to figure it out. Beats trying to discern whether Ranae Lee is correct or not--go right to the scriptures. Incidentally, I think she's got a lot of it right IMHO and some of it is pretty out there.

I don't want a rehash, but if you have any information to send privately, my email is [email protected]. You've already given books and stuff. If you have old posts of collected material, I'd be forever grateful!

[Mark]

Here is one old post i did about this subject PJ. Good luck.

I have recommended Gileadi's excellent book titled The Book of Isaiah-
A New Translation with Interpretive Keys From The Book Of Mormon to
those interested in seeking answers about last days events. Isaiah saw
our day and gives us much to contemplate and decifer. He offers many
of the following observations.

Isaiah describes Assyria as one of two super-powers in the world- the
other being Egypt. Assyria is an oppresive and ruthless superpower
coming from the North. They are militaristic and bent on world
domination. Egypt is described by Isaiah as historically a
traditionally civilized nation. They are industrious, but enduring
economic hardships; stable but suffering political decline; religious
but becoming idolatrous; having fertile lands but experiencing
drought. It possesses vast forces of military might, to which smaller
nations of the world look for protection against Assyria. Egypt is
portrayed as the only military power sufficiently strong to counter
Assyria. Many smaller nations are therefore alligned with Egypt.

When the world is ripened in iniquity, Assyria bursts forth like a
flood. With a mighty alliance of nations it sweeps over the entire
earth conquering and destroying and capturing the whole world. Those
nations who have alligned with Egypt are devastated when Assyria
exposes Egypts weaknesses in a military confrontation. Egypts lands
are ravaged and their men, women and children are raped and defiled
and slaughtered and they are trodden underfoot.

After a few years of war and global oppresion from Assyria's armies
they lays seige to Zion/Jerusalem, where remnants of Israel take
refuge. Because of the Lords covenant with Israel and the
righteousness of this remnant the Assyrian Army is destroyed in a
miraculous way. The Davidic King together with a righteous army of
Israel reconquers the earth on behalf of the Lord.

Now you decide if Isaiahs political and spiritual scenerio is
repeating itself in the latter days. Is there a militaristic super-
power in the North preparing to launch an all out flood of destruction
and conquest upon a world ripening in iniquity? Is there a major super
power to whom smaller nations of the world look for protection against
a latter day Assyrian enemy? Does this Egyptian latter day arm of
flesh nation ripening with wickedness and iniquity exist? Do you see
any parallels to this type and shadow portrayed by the great Prophet
Isaiah? Once you examine all these types and compare them to our day I
believe that you will discover communism as that great conspiracy
which has been and continues to be the single greatest Satanic threat
to our peace and freedoms that exist upon the face of the earth. I
believe Pres. McKay and Pres. Benson said the same thing many years
ago. Things have not changed over the years.

[naturelovertoo]

Here is something I found that speaks to the original question of this topic:

Shadows, Similitudes, and Types of His Coming

Israel's prophets used the current events with which the people were familiar to teach great truths relative to the Second Coming. Their wars and calamities were pointed to as types and shadows of what would be in that great day. The brutality and bloodshed and carnage that wrought havoc in Israel became a similitude of the greater warfare and destructions destined to overrun the earth in the last days. To the extent that we have prophetic insight as to what will transpire when our Lord returns, we can do the same thing with reference to the wars and plagues of our day. Such similitudes as the following are worthy of note:

1. The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.It was Jesus himself, after using the similitude about Noah and the Second Coming, who said: "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be from the day when the Son of man is revealed. . . . Remember Lot's wife." (Luke 17:28-32.)In Sodom and Gomorrah there was such lewdness and immorality and perversion and wickedness and evil as is seldom found on earth. All the people were as those who lived in the days of Noah, and all deserved the same fate. When Lot and his loved ones left Sodom, all who remained were carnal, sensual, and devilish; all were ripened in iniquity; all were ready for the burning. Among them there was not the slightest intimation of the destructions that lay ahead. As they continued the normal activities of life reveling in their evil ways, of a sudden, coming as it were from the midst of eternity, fire and brimstone destroyed them and their cities. As for Lot's wife, she looked back; that is, she turned again to the things of the world, and she too was destroyed with the wicked. So also shall it be at the end of the world.Even now the generality of men love Satan more than God; even now sodomic practices—immorality, homosexuality, and all manner of perversions—are found among great segments of our society; even now the righteous are leaving the world and finding place in the stakes of Zion. And as the residue of men go forward in their normal activities, reveling in their wickedness as did they of old, the day of burning, coming, as it were, from the midst of eternity, shall come upon them. And should any of the saints look back as did Lot's wife, they will be burned with the wicked.

2. Assyria, the Enemy of Israel.What better similitude could Isaiah choose, to show the destructions incident to the last days, than to point to the warlike ways of the neighboring kingdom of Assyria? Assyria was the great world power that invaded the land of Israel and carried the Ten Tribes into captivity and bondage. The slaughter and sorrow, the death and destruction, and the evil religious influences of the Assyrian invasion can scarcely be overstated. When a whole nation is transported to another area of the earth, it is, for them, a day of gloominess and dark despair. When the invasion is, in fact, a holy war against Jehovah and his people; when it is directed by an Assyrian king who acts as regent on earth for the national god Ashur; when the false religion of the pagans overthrows the true kingdom of Jehovah—when these things happen, surely the Lord must come out of his hiding place and fight the battles of his people. And such is the message Isaiah delivers.Though earth and hell combine to fight against the true believers who have the true gospel; though there is apostasy and darkness and the saints are carried away to a spiritual Assyria; though the cause of Satan triumphs for a season—surely the Lord will come again in the last days to save his people and destroy their enemies. Such is the similitude with which we are dealing."And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far?" Isaiah asks. "To whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?" In answer the Lord promises to punish Assyria, even as he will punish the wicked enemies of his people in the last days. As the Assyrians conquer nations and kingdoms, with power and might, so that none stand against them, even so shall the Lord send destruction and burning at his coming. "Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts . . . kindle a burning like the burning of a fire. And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day." The vineyard shall be burned at his coming, and the latter-day "Assyrian," the one who opposes his people in that great day, shall be burned as are thorns and briers. "And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them." (Isa. 10:3-19.) Comparatively few will remain on earth to enjoy the millennial bliss.

3. Moab: A Type of All Nations.When the Lord comes, he will make a full end of all nations; none shall abide the day; all shall be destroyed. There will be no law but his law when he comes. Isaiah's prophecy about the destruction of Moab in the last days taught this to ancient Israel.In the midst of a prophetic account as to what would happen to Moab, Isaiah uttered these Messianic words: "And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness." (Isa. 16:5.) Later, in the midst of a glorious Messianic sermon about the resurrection and the Second Coming, Isaiah said: "And it shall be said in that day, Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, and he will save us: this is the Lord; we have waited for him, we will be glad and rejoice in his salvation." Christ shall save his people when he comes again. At this point the scripture says: "For in this mountain shall the hand of the Lord rest, and Moab shall be trodden down under him, even as straw is trodden down for the dunghill." (Isa. 25:9-10.) And as with Moab, so with nations in the great and coming day.

4. Egypt: First Smitten, Then Healed.In the last days all nations shall be smitten and destroyed and the wicked among them shall be burned. But what of those who remain? They shall turn unto the Lord and be saved with his people Israel. Isaiah made Egypt the illustration of this concept.After setting forth the woes that would come upon Egypt, Isaiah then promised: "They shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them." Is there deliverance for any people except in and through the Savior of mankind? Are any ever freed from oppression in the full sense until they cleave unto the Lord of hosts? Next Isaiah says: "And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day." Such has never yet been the case in Egypt, but it shall soon be. They, along with all nations, shall be opened to the preaching of the gospel, and a foothold will be gained. Then cometh the end, and then shall those who remain rally to the standard set up before them. "And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them." Egypt shall have the blessings of the gospel.And as with Egypt, so with all nations. A residue shall turn unto the Lord and be blessed of him. Then shall be fulfilled that which is written: "Blessed be Egypt my people," saith the Lord, "and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance." (Isa. 19:20-25.)

5. Modern Similitudes of His Coming.Those who know what lies ahead, and who have prophetic insight as to the future, find it easy to devise similitudes that are as plain and graphic as those used by Isaiah or any of the prophets. They can compare the desolations poured out upon Jerusalem in A.D. 70 with those that will fall upon all men in the last days. They can compare the destructions of the Jaredite and Nephite peoples with the destructions that shall befall the wicked in all nations at that great and dreadful day. They can look to the bloodshed and horrors of two world wars and see in them a type and a shadow of what shall be as the Armageddon of the future rears its ugly head of horror before us. They can speak of atomic holocausts and of hydrogen bombs that will desolate whole nations and peoples. All these things are but types of what is yet to be.Out of this horrible picture there is only one ray of hope. Those who believe and obey, whether in life or in death, shall have eternal life. The God-fearing and the righteous who remain, together with those who rise from their graves to meet our Lord at his coming, shall have joy everlasting with him in his kingdom. However awesome is the future, the promised reward is worth the price, and the promised glory will swallow up all sorrows. It is the Lord's work, and he will bring it off triumphant.

Bruce R. McConkie, Millennial Messiah:The Second Coming of the Son of Man, pg 364

[naturelovertoo]

This describes the location:

4. Babylonia and Assyria: "These were the two great Eastern empires before which all the old states of Syria and Palestine fell. We learn their history partly from the Bible narrative, and also from con temporary monuments written in cuneiform characters and recently deciphered."Babylonia or Shinar (Gen. 10:10) is the alluvial country on the lower course of the Euphrates and Tigris, of which Babel or Babylon [the same] was the chief city. Assyria, or Asshur, occupied the Tigris valley to the north of Babylonia. Its center lay on the left bank of the Tigris, where the great city of Nineveh stood, opposite Mosul. Babylon and Nineveh were long rivals, but they had a common civilization, of which the southern alluvium was the original home. Their language was Semitic, but in the southern country the Semites seem to have been preceded by another race from whom they acquired many things in their culture and religion, and to whom the origin of their peculiar coneiform system of writing is generally ascribed. In process of time Assyria became the stronger power, and after the Egyptians retired from Mesopotamia, it began to push forth beyond its original limits." (Cambridge Bible Dictionary—70's Bible—p. 14).

B.H. Roberts, Seventies Course in Theology. Vol 3, pg 48