Is Assyria Russia?

[John Adams]

I like cats!

Sometimes you just have to laugh at yourself (and others a little too). After a long day of enduring, it's fun to read through a whole thread and try to sort out the good intentions from the pot shots - either way I learn a little here and laugh a little there.

Thanks for the smile!

[Captain Moroni]

Naturelover, the Jews look forward to a Messiah who is a conquering king who save them physically. These Jews didn't get this idea out of thin air. What they didn't realize that the first Messiah, Jesus Christ, came to save through from spiritual bondage, not physical conquering and protection. Beforer Christ comes the 2nd time, the Messiah of the Jews will appear as a spiritual forerunner like John the Baptist did during the 1st Coming. This Jewsih forerunner will be a conquering hero known in the Old Testament prophecy as the Davidic Servant. The DS will help usher in the 2nd Coming of the true Messiah, Jesus Christ.

IMO, unless we realize this distinction, we may NOT fully realize that the Jews were partially correct in expecting a temporal saving Messiah. We have to carefully distinquish whether Jesus THE MESSIAH or the DS is being talked about in Isaiah.

[pjbrownie]

So who do Syria and Ephraim symolize, the Church, or wider America. As I read I see the Syria being Europe leading America on to war with the Saints and set up a king, but they get surprised by Assyria.

[Mark]

Remember pj that Isaiah's Egypt is one of the two latter day super powers, the other being Assyria. Ephraim was born and reared in Egypt. Therefore it is logical that the Land of Ephraim is rhetorically linked to Egypt or this latter day power. If you go to Chapter 28 Isaiah speaks of the drunkards of Ephraim who have become proud and opulent and live under carnal security. The heads of the people are also drunk and under a curse and cause confusion thru bad judgement and self deception. The Lord then sends a flood or ravaging hailstorm typifying the Assyrian armies to trodden down Ephraims glory and hurl her crown to the ground. The Ephraimite nation is plundered and overpowered at the time of early harvest by this great Assyrian power when it has become ripened in iniquity. This Ephraim nation is then spoken to by a foreign tongue since they have not listened to the Lords revelatory speech. A remnant of the Lords people survive this vicious attack and the Lord renews his covenant relationship with them and they prevail against this Assyrian King and his forces in a miraculous way. The proudful Assyrians boost in their own strength and are defeated and driven out by this righteous remnant. Thats the way I see it for what its worth which is probable very little.

[Captain Moroni]

Mark, looks like you and I are real Gileadi fans.

[jbalm]

Hope this isn't too far off topic. But ever since Mark started banging the Nyquist drum, I've kept my eyes open for any justifications China/Russia might use to justify aggression.

This sounds like they are trying to pick a fight:

U.S. has plundered world wealth with dlr -China paper
Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:59am EDT

BEIJING, Oct 24 (Reuters) - The United States has plundered global wealth by exploiting the dollar's dominance, and the world urgently needs other currencies to take its place, a leading Chinese state newspaper said on Friday.

The front-page commentary in the overseas edition of the People's Daily said that Asian and European countries should banish the U.S. dollar from their direct trade relations for a start, relying only on their own currencies.

A meeting between Asian and European leaders, starting on Friday in Beijing, presented the perfect opportunity to begin building a new international financial order, the newspaper said.

The People's Daily is the official newspaper of China's ruling Communist Party. The Chinese-language overseas edition is a small circulation offshoot of the main paper.

Its pronouncements do not necessarily directly voice leadership views. But the commentary, as well as recent comments, amount to a growing chorus of Chinese disdain for Washington's economic policies and global financial dominance in the wake of the credit crisis.

"The grim reality has led people, amidst the panic, to realise that the United States has used the U.S. dollar's hegemony to plunder the world's wealth," said the commentator, Shi Jianxun, a professor at Shanghai's Tongji University.

Shi, who has before been strident in his criticism of the U.S., said other countries had lost vast amounts of wealth because of the financial crisis, while Washington's sole concern had been protecting its own interests.

"The U.S. dollar is losing people's confidence. The world, acting democratically and lawfully through a global financial organisation, urgently needs to change the international monetary system based on U.S. global economic leadership and U.S. dollar dominance," he wrote.

Shi suggested that all trade between Europe and Asia should be settled in euros, pounds, yen and yuan, though he did not explain how the Chinese currency could play such a role since it is not convertible on the capital account.

A two-day Asia-Europe Meeting (ASEM) of 27 EU member states and 16 Asian countries was set to open on Friday. Though few analysts expect much in the way of concrete agreements, Shi said it could prove momentous.

"How can Europe and Asia grasp each other's hands and together confront the once-in-a-century global financial crisis sparked by the U.S.; how can they construct a new equitable and safe international financial order?" he said.

"The world is waiting for this Asian-European meeting to achieve big results in financial cooperation." (Reporting by Simon Rabinovitch; Editing by Ken Wills)

[Captain Moroni]

jabalm thank you for posting this. In addition, China has said that speculation/manipulation in gold must stop. The PTB are driving down the price of gold when all sound economics of supply and demand require a major uptrun in gold and silver.

[Mark]

Great find JB. The US must be sufficiently demonized in the worlds eyes in order to justify that we be "tread underfoot like mud in the streets". (Isaiah 10:5-6) We are the blight of humanity and must be dealt with accordingly. No mercy.

[naturelovertoo]

This has been posted before, but it is being fulfilled more and more.

The pending economic crisis that now faces America is painfully obvious. If even a fraction of potential foreign claims against our gold supply were presented to the Treasury, we would have to renege on our promise. We would be forced to repudiate our own currency on the world market. Foreign investors, who would be left holding the bag with American dollars, would dump them at tremendous discounts in return for more stable currencies, or for gold itself. The American dollar both abroad and at home would suffer the loss of public confidence. If the government can renege on its international monetary promises, what is to prevent it from doing the same on its domestic promises? How really secure would be government guarantees behind Federal Housing Administration loans, Savings and Loan Insurance, government bonds, or even Social Security? Even though American citizens would still be forced by law to honor the same pieces of paper as though they were real money, instinctively they would rush and convert their paper currency into tangible material goods which could be used as barter. As in Germany and other nations that have previously traveled this road, the rush to get rid of dollars and acquire tangibles would rapidly accelerate the visible effects of inflation to where it might cost one hundred dollars or more for a single loaf of bread. Hoarded silver coins would begin to reappear as a separate monetary system which, since they have intrinsic value would remain firm, while printed paper money finally would become worth exactly its proper value-the paper it is printed on! Everyone's savings would be wiped out totally. No one could escape.

One can only imagine what such conditions would do to the stock market and to industry. Uncertainty over the future would cause the consumer to halt all spending except for the barest necessities. Market for such items as television sets, automobiles, furniture, new homes, and entertainment would dry up almost overnight. With no one buying, firms would have to close down and lay off their employees. Unemployment would further aggravate the buying freeze, and the nation would plunge into a depression that would make the 1930s look like prosperity. At least the dollar was sound in those days. In fact, since it was a firm currency, its value actually went up as related to the amount of goods, which declined through reduced production. Next time around, however, the problems of unemployment and low production will be compounded by a monetary system that will be utterly worthless. All the government controls and so-called guarantees in the world will not be able to prevent it, because every one of them is based on the assumption that the people will continue to honor printing press money. But once the government itself openly refuses to honor it-as it must if foreign demands for gold continue-it is likely that the American people will soon follow suit. This, in a nutshell, is the so-called "gold problem." (An Enemy Hath Done This, pp. 216-18.)Ezra Taft Benson

[pjbrownie]

That's a cryptic way of saying Ephraim is the Church. Then what is Judah, those squirrelled away in the wilderness? Makes you wonder. I have amped up Ephraim as America and Judah as the Church, unless Judah really IS Judah and represents modern Israel. Judah gets it too, but they are turned away right at the last minute before Judah is detroyed.

Let me state that possible Ephraim is STILL America, coming up out of Egypt (Europe) for political reasons. When Israel came up it was a whole nation, and now is is divided symbolically between the righteous and wicked. I don't see Assyria targeting specifically the Church, but a much wider kingdom, America. The Church will be targeted, but part of a much wider campaign. Ephraim is a particular geography, so I think it relates to what the Lord intends to do with America, make Zion out of it, with a capital in the center. Incidentally, the PTB want to do this as well witht their North America Union with a capital right at Kansas City.

I would then say Syria is England.

[naturelovertoo]

This may help. I will see if anyone else spoke on these names and their meaning.

THE KINGDOMS OF ISRAEL AND JUDAH
After the death of Solomon, his son Rehoboam ascended the throne of Israel. Then there came to him representatives from the tribes under the leadership of Jereboam, requesting that the heavy taxes which had been levied by Solomon be reduced. This King Rehoboam refused to do, and in his reply to this petition he spoke roughly and said: "My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions."( 1 Kings 12:14.) Thereupon the complaining tribes rebelled and set up Jeroboam as their king. Two tribes remained loyal to Rehoboam, and he reigned over them in Jerusalem. From that time forth Israel was divided into the two kingdoms, Israel composed of ten tribes, and the kingdom of Judah, with the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin and such scattering of other tribes who resided in the territory of Judah. Joseph F. Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim (i.e., the Ten Tribes) shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah (the two tribes) shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. Joseph F. Smith, Answers to Gospels Questions. vol 2 pg 181

JUDAH GATHERS TO JERUSALEM, EPHRAIM TO ZION. "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."fnJerusalemNew Jerusalema-Smith, Joseph FieldingTPThe statement is very clear that two separate cities, or centers, are mentioned by Isaiah. In modern revelation this is confirmed, and we are informed just where the city of Zion-which is the New Jerusalem-shall be built.JerusalemNew Jerusalema-Smith, Joseph Fielding
In order to get a proper understanding of this question, it is necessary to explain the fact that Palestine is to be the gathering place of the tribe of Judah and "the children of Israel his companions," after their long dispersion as predicted by the prophets. America is the land of Zion. It was given to Joseph, son of Jacob, and his descendants to be an everlasting inheritance. The children of Ephraim (son of Joseph) and "all the house of Israel his companions," will be gathered to Zion, or America.

In the blessing given by Jacob to his son Joseph the inheritance of America is foreshadowed and predicted in the following words: "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: . . . The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

Because of his faithfulness and integrity, Joseph received greater blessings than the progenitors of Jacob and was rewarded with the land of Zion. His brothers, with malicious intent, separated him and cast him out from among them. The Lord, in rewarding him, separated him from his brothers-the other tribes of Israel-and gave him an inheritance in a land that is choice above all other lands, which, we have learned from the Book of Mormon and modern revelation, is America

[Captain Moroni]

Naturelover, one correction to your post about Gold. Our currency is a 100% fiat one. There is NO promise of Gold redemption to anyone. The rest of the post of bailing out of the $ is already upon us.

[Captain Moroni]

I believe Judah in these latter days are the decendents of Jacob or the Lamanite peoples as well as those scattered among the nations after Assyria beat Israel. Remembewr also that some of the Ten Tribes are together in the "North Country" being taught and led by John the Beloved. Folks it's all there in the D+C.

[Proud 2b Peculiar]

This may help. I will see if anyone else spoke on these names and their meaning.

THE KINGDOMS OF ISRAEL AND JUDAH
After the death of Solomon, his son Rehoboam ascended the throne of Israel. Then there came to him representatives from the tribes under the leadership of Jereboam, requesting that the heavy taxes which had been levied by Solomon be reduced. This King Rehoboam refused to do, and in his reply to this petition he spoke roughly and said: "My father made your yoke heavy, and I will add to your yoke: my father also chastised you with whips, but I will chastise you with scorpions."( 1 Kings 12:14.) Thereupon the complaining tribes rebelled and set up Jeroboam as their king. Two tribes remained loyal to Rehoboam, and he reigned over them in Jerusalem. From that time forth Israel was divided into the two kingdoms, Israel composed of ten tribes, and the kingdom of Judah, with the two tribes of Judah and Benjamin and such scattering of other tribes who resided in the territory of Judah. Joseph F. Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah; Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand, to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD.But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. (Jeremiah 31:31-34.)

And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim (i.e., the Ten Tribes) shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah (the two tribes) shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. Joseph F. Smith, Answers to Gospels Questions. vol 2 pg 181

JUDAH GATHERS TO JERUSALEM, EPHRAIM TO ZION. "And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem."fnJerusalemNew Jerusalema-Smith, Joseph FieldingTPThe statement is very clear that two separate cities, or centers, are mentioned by Isaiah. In modern revelation this is confirmed, and we are informed just where the city of Zion-which is the New Jerusalem-shall be built.JerusalemNew Jerusalema-Smith, Joseph Fielding
In order to get a proper understanding of this question, it is necessary to explain the fact that Palestine is to be the gathering place of the tribe of Judah and "the children of Israel his companions," after their long dispersion as predicted by the prophets. America is the land of Zion. It was given to Joseph, son of Jacob, and his descendants to be an everlasting inheritance. The children of Ephraim (son of Joseph) and "all the house of Israel his companions," will be gathered to Zion, or America.

In the blessing given by Jacob to his son Joseph the inheritance of America is foreshadowed and predicted in the following words: "Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall: . . . The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills: they shall be on the head of Joseph, and on the crown of the head of him that was separate from his brethren."

Because of his faithfulness and integrity, Joseph received greater blessings than the progenitors of Jacob and was rewarded with the land of Zion. His brothers, with malicious intent, separated him and cast him out from among them. The Lord, in rewarding him, separated him from his brothers-the other tribes of Israel-and gave him an inheritance in a land that is choice above all other lands, which, we have learned from the Book of Mormon and modern revelation, is America

This is exactly as I see it.

There is New Jerusalem and Old Jerusalem. There is Israel and Judah. Two Kingdoms with different places of inheritance. Christ comes to one Kingdom first and then to the other.

All of Israel cannot gather until after the cleansing. But they will come to the aid of the remnant of Joseph left in Zion. And will build up the waste places.

There will be wide destruction across the land of Zion. The saints will be gathered at the stakes for safety. (literal or spiritual not sure). There will be persecution too. A desolating illness will be part of the cleanse, as well as the plagues of Egypt. Famine etc.

Many saints will also die. And they will be innocent and stand as a testimony against the wicked, and that brings on the Justice of God in wiping out those that killed the saints. Just like with Alma and Amulek. The innocent wives and children burned, but Alma and Amulek survive and those that killed the women and children were killed by the invading Lamanites. Not saying it happens the same way, just a type and shadow in my mind.

Well, that is enough from me.

[Captain Moroni]

Naturelover, I see it the very same way. FWIW, I can never get enough of your spiritual insights into the last days events. You are a real gem to this forum.

[HeirofNumenor]

The semi-official LDS interpretation of biblical futurist prophecy is a more pre-millennial historicism, which means that tribulation periods relate to the Great Apostasy and not to some future 3 1/2 years that happen right before (which is a more evangelical interpretation anyway). In the historicism case, the tribulation has already ocurred, and we're just waiting for a massive earthquake to be our only set-up for the New Jerusalem. It means that we kind of glide on into the Millennium because Joseph Smith comes, restores and Ensign to the nations, and the child plays with the snake, the Lion and the Lamb, and Jesus dwells in his holy mountain--no record of a massive destruction among the Church. It already happened, we ARE the remnant, and we're just waiting for the Earthquake, New Jerusalem, Armageddon, the two Temples.

Where do you get the idea that this is the "semi-official LDS interpretation"? Maybe through a new religion/Institute manual?

In the readings I have been doing for the last 20+ years, it all goes just the opposite: future trials and tribulations (though not necessarily one or two separate 3 1/2 year periods). As rule though, the church leaders, scholars, and authors (GA's - officially or in their own writings, BYU religion professors, etc.) tend to avoid naming names to specific apocalyptic individuals and organizations.

[Sarah]

Here is one old post i did about this subject PJ. Good luck.

I have recommended Gileadi's excellent book titled The Book of Isaiah-
A New Translation with Interpretive Keys From The Book Of Mormon to
those interested in seeking answers about last days events. Isaiah saw
our day and gives us much to contemplate and decifer. He offers many
of the following observations.

Isaiah describes Assyria as one of two super-powers in the world- the
other being Egypt. Assyria is an oppresive and ruthless superpower
coming from the North. They are militaristic and bent on world
domination. Egypt is described by Isaiah as historically a
traditionally civilized nation. They are industrious, but enduring
economic hardships; stable but suffering political decline; religious
but becoming idolatrous; having fertile lands but experiencing
drought. It possesses vast forces of military might, to which smaller
nations of the world look for protection against Assyria. Egypt is
portrayed as the only military power sufficiently strong to counter
Assyria. Many smaller nations are therefore alligned with Egypt.

When the world is ripened in iniquity, Assyria bursts forth like a
flood. With a mighty alliance of nations it sweeps over the entire
earth conquering and destroying and capturing the whole world. Those
nations who have alligned with Egypt are devastated when Assyria
exposes Egypts weaknesses in a military confrontation. Egypts lands
are ravaged and their men, women and children are raped and defiled
and slaughtered and they are trodden underfoot.

After a few years of war and global oppresion from Assyria's armies
they lays seige to Zion/Jerusalem, where remnants of Israel take
refuge. Because of the Lords covenant with Israel and the
righteousness of this remnant the Assyrian Army is destroyed in a
miraculous way. The Davidic King together with a righteous army of
Israel reconquers the earth on behalf of the Lord.

Now you decide if Isaiahs political and spiritual scenerio is
repeating itself in the latter days. Is there a militaristic super-
power in the North preparing to launch an all out flood of destruction
and conquest upon a world ripening in iniquity? Is there a major super
power to whom smaller nations of the world look for protection against
a latter day Assyrian enemy? Does this Egyptian latter day arm of
flesh nation ripening with wickedness and iniquity exist? Do you see
any parallels to this type and shadow portrayed by the great Prophet
Isaiah? Once you examine all these types and compare them to our day I
believe that you will discover communism as that great conspiracy
which has been and continues to be the single greatest Satanic threat
to our peace and freedoms that exist upon the face of the earth. I
believe Pres. McKay and Pres. Benson said the same thing many years
ago. Things have not changed over the years.

Bumping up the above quote for Duke - seems like a good summary to me.

[TheDuke]

Better to read Gileadi's current stuff on line. Its free if you you read the "legacy" section.

[abijah]

my 0.02: 'Is Assyria Russia?', and similar conjectures like whether USA is Egypt, etc, i used to somewhat think along similar lines, but have since learned that this isn't really a good or accurate way of interpreting the scriptures imo

[Niemand]

my 0.02: 'Is Assyria Russia?', and similar conjectures like whether USA is Egypt, etc, i used to somewhat think along similar lines, but have since learned that this isn't really a good or accurate way of interpreting the scriptures imo

The usual interpretation is that Gog and Magog represent Russia and maybe America.

[abijah]

my 0.02: 'Is Assyria Russia?', and similar conjectures like whether USA is Egypt, etc, i used to somewhat think along similar lines, but have since learned that this isn't really a good or accurate way of interpreting the scriptures imo

The usual interpretation is that Gog and Magog represent Russia and maybe America.

Usual for who though? This broader style of interpreting the scriptures was born out of american protestantism as far as I'm aware.

'Egypt', 'Assyria', 'Gog & Magog' - imo these principalities encompass things much larger than mere nation-states, which come and go, rise and fall like the wind, whereas these spiritual principalities speak to forces that transcend any individual specific empire, like USA or Russia.

[Robin Hood]

I have been reading Book of Mormon Isaiah with new eyes, and I see Assyria as more than just Assyria. I think it may be Russia and/or China (The Philistines) This latter-day Assyrian empire will:

1. Enter into a consipracy with America's (defined as the latter-day Israel or Zion) brotherly enemy. I see this enemy as being America itself in conflict with itself (Ephraim representing Washington DC, Judah being the Saints) or a European "brother" that enters into a consipracy to stab us in the back.

2. Then turn on the conspirators and utterly destroy them.

3. They will not harm the Saints of God (Judah) because God will then smite Assyria (Russia, China) and they will withdraw in defeat.

4. Then end of the sixth seal, a massive earthquake, will contribute to their destruction and defeat.

So, am I off base? Is there other scriptoral or modern prophetic evidence to suggest that Assyria IS Russia and that I'm interpreting Israel correctly, or is it ONLY the wider vision of ancient Israel being established after they are afflicted by the Romans and Middle Age Europeans before the light of the gospel shines forth (this is standard LDS doctrine in the manuals, BTW).

Is there a double meaning and is there evidence for it?

Thoughts?

If a European "brother" is going to stab the US in the back, look no further than Germany. They have unfinished business.

[Niemand]

my 0.02: 'Is Assyria Russia?', and similar conjectures like whether USA is Egypt, etc, i used to somewhat think along similar lines, but have since learned that this isn't really a good or accurate way of interpreting the scriptures imo

The usual interpretation is that Gog and Magog represent Russia and maybe America.

Usual for who though? This broader style of interpreting the scriptures was born out of american protestantism as far as I'm aware.

'Egypt', 'Assyria', 'Gog & Magog' - imo these principalities encompass things much larger than mere nation-states, which come and go, rise and fall like the wind, whereas these spiritual principalities speak to forces that transcend any individual specific empire, like USA or Russia.

Usual in the sense of most popular. There are of course various animals mentioned in prophecy and some people associate them with heraldry. The US is commonly associated with an eagle, Russia with a bear (but also the eagle) and Britain with a lion... all of these animals appear in Biblical prophecy.

Gog and Magog are giants, and one way to describe that would be superpower. There are only three countries which fit that description - although Russia less so than it used to.