No Paid Ministry

[Joel]

:))

[Amonhi]

Transparency = honesty

The financials of the Church have been hidden from the members for as long as most of us have been alive.

Add to that, we are counseled that "questioning" is wrong, as is saying anything negative about the Brethren, even if it's true. If a convert is made aware of this, how far toward joining the church will they go? Or, will we come across as cultish?

" We are counseled." Are you a member? You always seem in opposition of the church and its leaders.

Lol, you just made her point by questioning her membership/worthiness as a result of her pointing out that we would have a lot fewer converts if they knew that the members would make them feel unworthy using comments like you just made for simple and real questions or observations like lizzy60's. Lol.

Funny,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Transparency = honesty

The financials of the Church have been hidden from the members for as long as most of us have been alive.

Add to that, we are counseled that "questioning" is wrong, as is saying anything negative about the Brethren, even if it's true. If a convert is made aware of this, how far toward joining the church will they go? Or, will we come across as cultish?

" We are counseled." Are you a member? You always seem in opposition of the church and its leaders.

You just proved my point.

Oh, you caught that too.

Lol,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Another day, another issue. Whether it is polygamy, a different definition of the Godhead, blacks and the priesthood, women and the priesthood, or a living allowance, some people have heartburn over one or all.

The problem for most these people is they like the Book of Mormon and Joseph. I wonder how Joseph made along, how did he provide?

Some people have left, including some posting on this thread. Where do they go? What good things do they have to share?

I haven't seen any good things or good places people have gone.

If these leaders are greedy as Finrock supposes, they wouldn't have the Spirit like they do.

It all comes down to testimony confirmation, if you try to make sense with dissonance (by the way, does that mean murmuing) you will find yourself on the outside.

Finrock is asking a sincere question. He can't see how 2 + 2 = 5. He asked us to help him learn. You responded by essentially saying, "stop liking the Book of Mormon it shouldn't be the key stone of our religion, Joseph Smith was over rated, there is no better place to go, and you should just blindly accept everything from polygamy to blacks and the priesthood to paid clergy when we say it doesn't exist. Get so caused to inconcistency that you aren't phased by it and then you will be a good and faithful member of the church like me."

None of the things you responded with actually address the issue and so were not helpful.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

More questions.

Do you believe the GA's should be like Bishops and continue to work but receive no living allowance?


If you agree with a living allowance, what do you think is a proper amount?

Perhaps our leaders should have faith that the Lord would look after their needs. This is the advice Jesus gave the disciples and apostles when they were sent out to minister.

Perhaps this is already happening but perhaps you disagree with how the Lord accomplishes it.

Is it called "faith"when you get $120k per yr, without a requirement to tithe back $12k? That's not faith, shadow. Faith is planting your seed and praying for a harvest.

Why would they not pay tithing? I know mission Presidents don't, but they don't actually make money from the church so they don't pay taxes either. GA's pmake money and pay taxes, why do you think they don't pay tithing?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Another day, another issue. Whether it is polygamy, a different definition of the Godhead, blacks and the priesthood, women and the priesthood, or a living allowance, some people have heartburn over one or all.

The problem for most these people is they like the Book of Mormon and Joseph. I wonder how Joseph made along, how did he provide?

Some people have left, including some posting on this thread. Where do they go? What good things do they have to share?

I haven't seen any good things or good places people have gone.

If these leaders are greedy as Finrock supposes, they wouldn't have the Spirit like they do.

It all comes down to testimony confirmation, if you try to make sense with dissonance (by the way, does that mean murmuing) you will find yourself on the outside.

Please don't add words to my mouth. I don't suppose they are greedy. I asked a question. Where did the "greedy" part come from? It came from your mind, rewcox, not mine. Think about that.

You avoided the question. You seem like you are afraid to address the question.

Anyways, it seems that you are okay with your dissonance, because the Church is true and it can do no wrong? No matter what the evidence, all is okay and there is no purpose to asking questions? Is that what you are saying? Again, sincere questions. Would be so fun and so interesting to have someone with intellectual courage to take up the mantle and have a discussion.

Personally, I'm not interested in confirmation bias. I'm not afraid of truth, even if it's negative. We seem to view things differently. To me, being honest about things, even when they are negative, doesn't equate to disloyalty or abandonment or a lack of love. I've lived the opposite, where I was in denial, didn't want to confront the truth, or deal with it, but I've learned from experience that things are not so black and white or bipolar. We can be honest and confront things truthfully, and in love, and it doesn't have to shake our faith or cause us to leave. It just doesn't have to lead to the conclusions you are saying. Perhaps you have personal experiences in your life that have been painful where you are sensitive to this, but, you might just be projecting when the reality is much different and much more hopeful and loving.

-Finrock

I'very studied a bit on this and will present a view that might answer some questions.

But not tonight.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Another day, another issue. Whether it is polygamy, a different definition of the Godhead, blacks and the priesthood, women and the priesthood, or a living allowance, some people have heartburn over one or all.

The problem for most these people is they like the Book of Mormon and Joseph. I wonder how Joseph made along, how did he provide?

Some people have left, including some posting on this thread. Where do they go? What good things do they have to share?

I haven't seen any good things or good places people have gone.

If these leaders are greedy as Finrock supposes, they wouldn't have the Spirit like they do.

It all comes down to testimony confirmation, if you try to make sense with dissonance (by the way, does that mean murmuing) you will find yourself on the outside.

Please don't add words to my mouth. I don't suppose they are greedy. I asked a question. Where did the "greedy" part come from? It came from your mind, rewcox, not mine. Think about that.

You avoided the question. You seem like you are afraid to address the question.

Anyways, it seems that you are okay with your dissonance, because the Church is true and it can do no wrong? No matter what the evidence, all is okay and there is no purpose to asking questions? Is that what you are saying? Again, sincere questions. Would be so fun and so interesting to have someone with intellectual courage to take up the mantle and have a discussion.

Personally, I'm not interested in confirmation bias. I'm not afraid of truth, even if it's negative. We seem to view things differently. To me, being honest about things, even when they are negative, doesn't equate to disloyalty or abandonment or a lack of love. I've lived the opposite, where I was in denial, didn't want to confront the truth, or deal with it, but I've learned from experience that things are not so black and white or bipolar. We can be honest and confront things truthfully, and in love, and it doesn't have to shake our faith or cause us to leave. It just doesn't have to lead to the conclusions you are saying. Perhaps you have personal experiences in your life that have been painful where you are sensitive to this, but, you might just be projecting when the reality is much different and much more hopeful and loving.

-Finrock

These are your words: Unfortunately you have people too who, frankly, don't give a damn about truth and error. They are the ones who are the leaders in positions and they expect to be obeyed and they enjoy their authority in the Church. They are self-righteous and they will fight against all attempts to tear down their high towers. We will have to accept that these individuals will fight against truth until the Lord returns in His glory, when they can longer deny or when they are no longer supported in their sins.

I disagree with your characterization of our leaders. You have a problem.

At first I also thought he was saying all the leaders were like this. I was going to call him on it but the I re read and saw that he was not saying all 5he leaders but that there are some leaders in the church who meet that criteria.

The fact is that there are some. The Lord says it is the nature or disposition of almost all men to do this as soon as they gain authority. So, there are bound to be at least a few. I have know some personaly, but I have know some who were not so much.

Finrock, it was clear that you were not saying ALL, but it was not so easy to see first go. Please forgive Rewcox for his reaction, I almost made a similar comment.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Another day, another issue. Whether it is polygamy, a different definition of the Godhead, blacks and the priesthood, women and the priesthood, or a living allowance, some people have heartburn over one or all.

The problem for most these people is they like the Book of Mormon and Joseph. I wonder how Joseph made along, how did he provide?

Some people have left, including some posting on this thread. Where do they go? What good things do they have to share?

I haven't seen any good things or good places people have gone.

If these leaders are greedy as Finrock supposes, they wouldn't have the Spirit like they do.

It all comes down to testimony confirmation, if you try to make sense with dissonance (by the way, does that mean murmuing) you will find yourself on the outside.

Please don't add words to my mouth. I don't suppose they are greedy. I asked a question. Where did the "greedy" part come from? It came from your mind, rewcox, not mine. Think about that.

You avoided the question. You seem like you are afraid to address the question.

Anyways, it seems that you are okay with your dissonance, because the Church is true and it can do no wrong? No matter what the evidence, all is okay and there is no purpose to asking questions? Is that what you are saying? Again, sincere questions. Would be so fun and so interesting to have someone with intellectual courage to take up the mantle and have a discussion.

Personally, I'm not interested in confirmation bias. I'm not afraid of truth, even if it's negative. We seem to view things differently. To me, being honest about things, even when they are negative, doesn't equate to disloyalty or abandonment or a lack of love. I've lived the opposite, where I was in denial, didn't want to confront the truth, or deal with it, but I've learned from experience that things are not so black and white or bipolar. We can be honest and confront things truthfully, and in love, and it doesn't have to shake our faith or cause us to leave. It just doesn't have to lead to the conclusions you are saying. Perhaps you have personal experiences in your life that have been painful where you are sensitive to this, but, you might just be projecting when the reality is much different and much more hopeful and loving.

-Finrock

These are your words: Unfortunately you have people too who, frankly, don't give a damn about truth and error. They are the ones who are the leaders in positions and they expect to be obeyed and they enjoy their authority in the Church. They are self-righteous and they will fight against all attempts to tear down their high towers. We will have to accept that these individuals will fight against truth until the Lord returns in His glory, when they can longer deny or when they are no longer supported in their sins.

I disagree with your characterization of our leaders. You have a problem.

rewcox, I just want you to know that I don't respond to you anymore because I think I'm having a conversation with you. I recognize at this point that you aren't sincere or you are ultra sensitive and defensive or you are incapable of having a rational discussion about the Church unless the discussion is unequivocally positive towards the Church. You basically just troll posts and threads. This will be my last time mentioning this.

Rewcox, In case you wanted to know, this was really clear. I also feel like you have no credibility or your comments come with a grain of sand because you don't take an honest look at things. You are so biased that you can't be considered credible.

I am willing to give up any of my beliefs if an honest person can walk me through my error. But being an honest person means that they would have to accept my views if I showed their error. That is what it means to meet on equal ground and to be an honest seeker for truth. This is what Finrock is asking for repeatedly. You seem unable to provide that type of unbiased honesty to be considered credible.

While I can learn from you I think your bias prevents you from learning from anyone who is not similarly biased. You aren't the only one on this forum that comes across this way, and I have acted like that as well from time to time and no doubt lost credibility in the eyes of many here, which I am currently "repenting" or working to correct.

I hope someday people will say, I disagree with Amonhi, but I know he considered all the information fairly and without bias made and honest assessment before he drew his conclusions.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Serious question: In light of the recent GA salary disclosures, how does the church justify the following statements?

Inasmuch as there is no paid ministry in the Church, service opportunities are available to men, women, and children of all ages."- Elder Franklin D. Richards

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches." -Elder Boyd K. Packer

"Over the years of my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have greatly appreciated the opportunities for service, for there is no paid ministry." -Elder Derek A. Cuthbert

"I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg." -Elder Thomas S. Monson

"Because there is no paid ministry, almost every churchgoer has a responsibility." Mormon Newsroom

We recognize how busy you are. Without a paid professional ministry, the responsibility for administering the Church depends on you consecrated members. Quinton Cook April 2012

We have no professionally trained and salaried clergy in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Dallin Oaks April 2012

This is like a broken record. Somebody like Investigator who has a history of leveling criticism of the church and its leadership in about every thread they jump in on starts a thread like this trying to implicate past leaders for not being truthful or misrepresenting the way things work in the church or whatever.

Your response indicates that you feel there has been a misrepresentation or lack of truth and that pointing it oit is a criticism. If you didn't then you wouldn't see it this way and would have responded with a new view that showed how it was not actually misrepresentation or ack of truth. You essentially feel criticized by her question not because is was critical but uncomfortable.

Investigator is not being honest about his intent here. He or she does not want to understand how things really work.

I'm sure you are making un suppored assumptions because I see no evidence that you know what you are talking about when you are speaking for Investigator in explaining his/her intentions.

Im sure investigator does not have a clue as to what occurs with each general authority when it comes to financial assistance or stipends.

not likely.

They just presuppose that these men are taking advantage of the financial benefits they may or may not receive. He/she doesnt have a clue of each ones financial situation or what they might do with any of the business income they receive off of church for profit businesses.

Why do you assume they are paid by investments? The letter said it was from the first Bishop over the church. He controls tithing distribution and the scripture's say that they should be supported by the tithing. Do you have a reference?

Some may donate it all to the missionary or welfare funds but that possibility is never explored. Why think the best of these honorable men who serve the Lord in any capacity asked?

I'm sure some are honorable, but I know a few aren't. I know one man who sold a business that was failing by messing with it's finances to make it appear that it was profitable. I know the guy who bought it and found out later from the previous accountant that the books were doctored to sell for a profit. 1 out of ??? Is not an honest man. But, I'm sure some are as well. They are not a special class of people that are not subject to the foibles of men.

There intent is purely to think the worst so as to harm and damage reputations of those who are not here to defend themselves from attacks against their characters.

I think the question was something like, "How do they say this and remain honorable? What are they thinking that justifies these comments? I want to know to.

Elder Oaks is a lawyer and knows how to avoid lying, how does he do it? Does the wording not apply to him? When called to be a GA, do they tell you something that explains why you can get paid and not be a paid minister?

Priestcraft is the unspoken yet implied accusation.

an honest man will consider all optna including priestcraft in his search for truth. A dishonest biased person will say that priestcraft is absolutly not an option or is the only option depending on if they are biased for or against the church. I assume your bias is for the church?

Then the same old posters that love to chime in with potentially harmful critisisms show up to throw more innuendos and barbs at the church or the leaders creating doubt that they are playing it straight or are just living like King Noahs priests off everybodies tithing money. There is always an assumption of guilt and wrong doing on their part. Frankly it is just getting old on an LDS oriented forum. Why not create some positive energy here by looking for some good?

Great idea, can you provide a view point that shows that the GA's are being honest and explain how they work hard for a living as full time church employees and so they should be paid by investments?

Recovery gave some great questions about how should they make a living, feed their family and send their kids to college? Should they neglect their family for the Lord?

How much is reasonable?

Peace,
Amonhi

[investigator]

Mark said a bunch of stuff...

If we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed. (President J. Reuben Clark)

Convince us of our errors of Doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the Word of God and we will ever be grateful for the information and you will ever have the pleasing reflections that you have been instruments in the hands of God of redeeming your fellow beings. (Orson Pratt, “ … The Seer, ” p. 15.)

[t]he man who cannot listen to an argument which opposes his views either has a weak position or is a weak defender of it. No opinion that cannot stand discussion or criticism is worth holding. And it has been wisely said that the man who knows only half of any question is worse off than the man who knows nothing of it. H e is not only one-sided but his partisanship soon turns him into an intolerant and a fanatic. In general , it is true that nothing which cannot stand up under discussion or criticism is worth defending. (James E. Talmage Improvement Era, Jan 1920, p. 204)

If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak. (President George A. Smith) I think a full, free talk is frequently of great use; we want nothing secret nor underhanded, and I for one want no association with things that cannot be talked about and will not bear investigation. (Journal of Discourses, 20:264) I admire men and women who have developed the questioning spirit, who are unafraid of new ideas and stepping stones to progress. We should, of course, respect the opinions of others, but we should also be unafraid to dissent — if we are informed. Thoughts and expressions compete in the marketplace of thought, and in that competition truth emerges triumphant. Only error fears freedom of expression. This free exchange of ideas is not to be deplored as long as men and women remain humble and teachable. Neither fear of consequence nor any kind of coercion should ever be used to secure uniformity of thought in the church. People should express their problems and opinions and be unafraid to think without fear of ill consequences. We must preserve freedom of the mind in the church and resist all efforts to suppress it. (Hugh B. Brown, counselor in First Presidency, Speech at BYU, March 29, 1958.)

As you accept the responsibility to seek after truth with an open mind and a humble heart, you will become more tolerant of others, more open to listen, more prepared to understand… (Dieter https://www.lds.org/broadca" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; F. sts/article/cesdevotional s/2013/01/whatistruth )

Many have noted the strong tendency of Latter-day Saints to avoid making waves. They seem strangely touchy on controversial issues. This begets an extreme lack of candor among the Saints, which in turn is supported by a new doctrine, according to which we have a Prophet at our head who relieves us of all responsibility for seeking knowledge beyond a certain point, making decisions, or taking action on our own. (Hugh Nibley, Temples of the Ancient World)

...while I believe all that God has revealed, I am not quite sure that I understand what he has revealed, and the fact that he has promised further revelation is to me a challenge to keep an open mind and be prepared to follow wherever my search for truth may lead....We have been blessed with much knowledge by revelation from God which, in some part, the world lacks. But there is an incomprehensibly greater part of truth which we must yet discover. Our revealed truth should leave us stricken with the knowledge of how little we really know. It should never lead to an emotional arrogance based upon a false assumption that we somehow have all the answers-that we in fact have a corner on truth....Preserve...the freedom of your mind in education and in religion, and be unafraid to express your thoughts and to insist upon your right to examine every proposition. We are not so much concerned with whether your thoughts are orthodox or heterodox as we are that you shall have thoughts. (Hugh B. Brown, BYU May 13 , “ An Eternal Quest: Freedom of the Mind. ”

Things to think about Mark. I love you brother.

[rewcox]

If you complain/murmur about the church and leaders, you are not biased...

If you believe and have a testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth, that Christ leads his Church, and that Christ selects His leaders and has given them the Priesthood and keys to operate the Church, then you are biased...

This is a murmuring/complaining thread, by the Reds who only want to complain. No one has responded to the questions I asked.

Finrock has an obsession about leaders being evil.

Amonhi has several different people who post for him. One Amonhi decided to send George to the telestial kingdom because George did not agree with Amonhi. It looks like the nicer Amonhi is in this thread, but still having issues on the truth.

[Amonhi]

If you complain/murmur about the church and leaders, you are not biased...

If you believe and have a testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth, that Christ leads his Church, and that Christ selects His leaders and has given them the Priesthood and keys to operate the Church, then you are biased...

This is a murmuring/complaining thread, by the Reds who only want to complain. No one has responded to the questions I asked.

Finrock has an obsession about leaders being evil.

Amonhi has several different people who post for him. One Amonhi decided to send George to the telestial kingdom because George did not agree with Amonhi. It looks like the nicer Amonhi is in this thread, but still having issues on the truth.

When I said biased, I ment completely to the point that if you are for the church you can see no bad or if you are against the church you can see no good.

An honest person will see both good and bad in the church because both exist. A dishonest person will only see one or the other.

It is true that several people post for me.

Peace,
Amonhi

[shadow]

GA's pmake money and pay taxes, why do you think they don't pay tithing?

Peace,
Amonhi

There's a lot of thinking and not a lot of knowing.

[janderich]

More questions.

Do you believe the GA's should be like Bishops and continue to work but receive no living allowance?

If you agree with a living allowance, what do you think is a proper amount?

You ask fair questions. The apostles under Christ left tear work and became traveling ministers. The we're supported by the members. Housed and fed as they went.

Without purse or script.

Purse means money

Scripts means manuals, handbooks or prepared lessons. Speak by the spirit.

Do we expect our leaders and our church to function like it did under Christ? Then the leaders should be supported by the members.

Agreed, they should be supported by members. Paul argues this same point in Corinthians:

This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. Don’t we have the right to food and drink? Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas? Or is it only I and Barnabas who lack the right to not work for a living?

Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more? (1 Cor 9:3-12)

This is a fair argument from Paul. His work was to preach the gospel and bring other's unto Christ. Does he not have a right to a living for the work he does? I with Paul say that indeed, he does. Now Paul goes on to say that he does not use this right, but certainly considers it fair that those who preach the gospel also get compensated by the members for the same:

But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. (1 Cor 9:12-13)

In the book of Mormon, it was considered priestcraft to be supported by the church and the leaders of the church had to "labor with their own hands" for their livelihood. They said this many times, especially when they were accused of getting wealthy off the church. Our modern brethren wouldn't be able to make the same claims as the ancient book of Mormon leaders.

But, all in all, I read the scriptures and it is clear in the D&C that the Lord intends for full time clergy to be paid whether they are Bishops Stake Presidents or GA's.

How much should they be paid? And how much should they be reimbursed?

I don't know the difference between a stipend and a salary. Does anyone know?

Peace,
Amonhi

Right you are Amonhi that the D&C clearly allows for even bishops (and their counselors) to be paid.

The priests and teachers shall have their stewardships, even as the members. And the elders or high priests who are appointed to assist the bishop as counselors in all things, are to have their families supported out of the property which is consecrated to the bishop, for the good of the poor, and for other purposes, as before mentioned; Or they are to receive a just remuneration for all their services, either a stewardship or otherwise, as may be thought best or decided by the counselors and bishop. And the bishop, also, shall receive his support, or a just remuneration for all his services in the church. (D&C 42:70-73

Of course today only the presiding bishopric is paid. Perhaps that was the intent of this revelation. I do not know. But, I do not begrudge them taking money from some of the church's holdings to pay these brethren. Can you imaging if they asked members to support them? They would get loads of money, much more than $120K!

Not withstanding all of this, we as members are extremely sensitive about "paid clergy". But, my bigger concern is not about "paid clergy" but instead "professional clergy". It is about those who go to school or seminary to become a minister. Such a system greatly blurs the line between those who are called of God and those who are called of men. It calls into question their very motivation. Is it money or is it the desire to serve God? Thankfully in our church there is no concern about someone working their way up through school to become a minister.

Now, one more note regarding the first post and statements by the brotheren that leaders are not paid. A year of so before Elder Perry died he came to our stake conference. At that time there was some pressure on the church to be more open about their finances. He told us that he felt that there would come a day when the church would be more transparent with their finances. He said he would not be concerned when that day came. The members would see how wise the leaders had been with the money they had received. I welcome such a day. Transparency is what is called for. Then we will clearly see some of these statements as incorrect. But I will not hold it against them. They did not set out to deceive. These men strive to do the work of the Lord. They clearly do not enter this work to get gain. It is silly to think that judges, university presidents, and heads of business could not make much more than a $120K a year.

[rewcox]

If you complain/murmur about the church and leaders, you are not biased...

If you believe and have a testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth, that Christ leads his Church, and that Christ selects His leaders and has given them the Priesthood and keys to operate the Church, then you are biased...

This is a murmuring/complaining thread, by the Reds who only want to complain. No one has responded to the questions I asked.

Finrock has an obsession about leaders being evil.

Amonhi has several different people who post for him. One Amonhi decided to send George to the telestial kingdom because George did not agree with Amonhi. It looks like the nicer Amonhi is in this thread, but still having issues on the truth.

When I said biased, I ment completely to the point that if you are for the church you can see no bad or if you are against the church you can see no good.

An honest person will see both good and bad in the church because both exist. A dishonest person will only see one or the other.

It is true that several people post for me.

Peace,
Amonhi

So you are saying everyone posting is dishonest. Certainly that includes the Amonhies.

Whichever one got in it with George really messed up and took Finrock for a ride too.

Your comment about honest and dishonest is incorrect also.

[Dlight]

Serious question: In light of the recent GA salary disclosures, how does the church justify the following statements?

Inasmuch as there is no paid ministry in the Church, service opportunities are available to men, women, and children of all ages."- Elder Franklin D. Richards

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches." -Elder Boyd K. Packer

"Over the years of my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have greatly appreciated the opportunities for service, for there is no paid ministry." -Elder Derek A. Cuthbert

"I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg." -Elder Thomas S. Monson

"Because there is no paid ministry, almost every churchgoer has a responsibility." Mormon Newsroom

We recognize how busy you are. Without a paid professional ministry, the responsibility for administering the Church depends on you consecrated members. Quinton Cook April 2012

We have no professionally trained and salaried clergy in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Dallin Oaks April 2012

I have two ideas for this.

They aren't being paid for their ministry as the Lords servants. They are only being paid for their secondary roles as CEOS of the for profit corporate side of the church which has numerous businesses and is separate from the ministry side of things. They make their money when they make financial decisions, not spiritual ones. So technically this is true if you think of it this way.

Or maybe they do not consider themselves as clergy or ministry, and they believe ministers or clergy only refer to local leaders like bishops, teachers and stake leaders?

[Finrock]

Another day, another issue. Whether it is polygamy, a different definition of the Godhead, blacks and the priesthood, women and the priesthood, or a living allowance, some people have heartburn over one or all.

The problem for most these people is they like the Book of Mormon and Joseph. I wonder how Joseph made along, how did he provide?

Some people have left, including some posting on this thread. Where do they go? What good things do they have to share?

I haven't seen any good things or good places people have gone.

If these leaders are greedy as Finrock supposes, they wouldn't have the Spirit like they do.

It all comes down to testimony confirmation, if you try to make sense with dissonance (by the way, does that mean murmuing) you will find yourself on the outside.

Please don't add words to my mouth. I don't suppose they are greedy. I asked a question. Where did the "greedy" part come from? It came from your mind, rewcox, not mine. Think about that.

You avoided the question. You seem like you are afraid to address the question.

Anyways, it seems that you are okay with your dissonance, because the Church is true and it can do no wrong? No matter what the evidence, all is okay and there is no purpose to asking questions? Is that what you are saying? Again, sincere questions. Would be so fun and so interesting to have someone with intellectual courage to take up the mantle and have a discussion.

Personally, I'm not interested in confirmation bias. I'm not afraid of truth, even if it's negative. We seem to view things differently. To me, being honest about things, even when they are negative, doesn't equate to disloyalty or abandonment or a lack of love. I've lived the opposite, where I was in denial, didn't want to confront the truth, or deal with it, but I've learned from experience that things are not so black and white or bipolar. We can be honest and confront things truthfully, and in love, and it doesn't have to shake our faith or cause us to leave. It just doesn't have to lead to the conclusions you are saying. Perhaps you have personal experiences in your life that have been painful where you are sensitive to this, but, you might just be projecting when the reality is much different and much more hopeful and loving.

-Finrock

These are your words: Unfortunately you have people too who, frankly, don't give a damn about truth and error. They are the ones who are the leaders in positions and they expect to be obeyed and they enjoy their authority in the Church. They are self-righteous and they will fight against all attempts to tear down their high towers. We will have to accept that these individuals will fight against truth until the Lord returns in His glory, when they can longer deny or when they are no longer supported in their sins.

I disagree with your characterization of our leaders. You have a problem.

At first I also thought he was saying all the leaders were like this. I was going to call him on it but the I re read and saw that he was not saying all 5he leaders but that there are some leaders in the church who meet that criteria.

The fact is that there are some. The Lord says it is the nature or disposition of almost all men to do this as soon as they gain authority. So, there are bound to be at least a few. I have know some personaly, but I have know some who were not so much.

Finrock, it was clear that you were not saying ALL, but it was not so easy to see first go. Please forgive Rewcox for his reaction, I almost made a similar comment.

Peace,
Amonhi

Yes, that whole post of mine was messed up and read awkward. I was in a rush when I was typing it. I went back and had to edit it a few times before it sound like what I was trying to say. I recognized it sounded awkward after rewcox's post. If you re-read my original post it should now read much better and reflect my thoughts more accurately.

-Finrock

[eddie]

" We are counseled." Are you a member? You always seem in opposition of the church and its leaders.

You just proved my point.

" If our lips are closed to murmuring, then our eyes can be opened." Neal A. Maxwell

Eddie,
I made two statements in my original post that are common knowledge. I'm guessing you agree with them, since you didn't tell me I was mistaken. Then I asked two questions. You must not want to discuss either of those questions, as you have not addressed them. Instead, you have only accused me of being in opposition, and murmuring. You are attacking me personally, instead of engaging in a discussion on the two facts stated, and the two questions I asked.
I call ad hominem on you. Please don't do this to me again. It's pointless.

I've said it elsewhere, but to clarify, I am a member, I love the gospel of Christ, I have read the Book of Mormon numerous times, and I have an unshakeable testimony of Christ, His Atonement, Joseph Smith, the Restoration, and the Scriptures.
I also have close family members who have lost their faith in Christ and the gospel, because they discovered the church had misled them, and they were not able to separate the Church and the Gospel. Therefore I have a vested interest in our leaders being more forthright, and less secretive. That's not murmuring, that's just my worldview.

Thank-you for sharing your testimony.

[Ezra]

Serious question: In light of the recent GA salary disclosures, how does the church justify the following statements?

Inasmuch as there is no paid ministry in the Church, service opportunities are available to men, women, and children of all ages."- Elder Franklin D. Richards

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches." -Elder Boyd K. Packer

"Over the years of my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have greatly appreciated the opportunities for service, for there is no paid ministry." -Elder Derek A. Cuthbert

"I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg." -Elder Thomas S. Monson

"Because there is no paid ministry, almost every churchgoer has a responsibility." Mormon Newsroom

We recognize how busy you are. Without a paid professional ministry, the responsibility for administering the Church depends on you consecrated members. Quinton Cook April 2012

We have no professionally trained and salaried clergy in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Dallin Oaks April 2012

I have two ideas for this.

They aren't being paid for their ministry as the Lords servants. They are only being paid for their secondary roles as CEOS of the for profit corporate side of the church which has numerous businesses and is separate from the ministry side of things. They make their money when they make financial decisions, not spiritual ones. So technically this is true if you think of it this way.

Or maybe they do not consider themselves as clergy or ministry, and they believe ministers or clergy only refer to local leaders like bishops, teachers and stake leaders?

Ohh I like that last one.

I wonder if I would get in trouble by the IRS for not filing my taxes because I don't see myself as a person or human or something along those lines what ever the wording needs to be. I'm a animal. Dogs are animals and they don't have to file taxes. So me being a animal means I don't have to pay taxes.


But I imagine it wouldn't matter what I think or choose to claim to be. It only matters what they do. I would go to jail.

Same can be said about the members and leaders. If the leaders don't see themselves as payed clergy but are in the members and others eyes. Then that's what they are.

It's what I see them as. There is no way around it in my mind. They are payed by the church to do what they do. Which is fine i understand the need to be in order to be able to have enough time to spend doing their callings. But to say they are not payed is not true no matter how you twist it.

[Finrock]

If you complain/murmur about the church and leaders, you are not biased...

If you believe and have a testimony that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the only true and living church upon the earth, that Christ leads his Church, and that Christ selects His leaders and has given them the Priesthood and keys to operate the Church, then you are biased...

This is a murmuring/complaining thread, by the Reds who only want to complain. No one has responded to the questions I asked.

Finrock has an obsession about leaders being evil.

Amonhi has several different people who post for him. One Amonhi decided to send George to the telestial kingdom because George did not agree with Amonhi. It looks like the nicer Amonhi is in this thread, but still having issues on the truth.

I do not have an obsession about leaders being evil. The post where I jacked up that one paragraph, I was making the point that we need to be able to see both good and evil, where good and evil exist. If something is wrong, its wrong. I'm not going to ignore it just because I'm a part of the team. I'm taking a principled stand. Let me provide a descriptive example...

I am a Mormon and I love the Mormon Church. I love the Mormon people and I love the Mormon leaders. I love working and laboring in the Church. The Mormon Church is such a wonderful organization on this earth and such a powerful force for good. There are thousands upon thousands of good, faithful, righteous, loving, kind, Mormons who exemplify Jesus Christ. This is all true but at the same time it is also true, and I am not blind to it and I am unwilling to ignore it, that the Mormon Church also contains many errors, many mistakes, and many examples of wickedness. There are thousands upon thousands of evil individuals working within our ranks who are not truly converted to Christ, who seek for power, for authority, and who are self-righteous and self-serving. Mormon leaders have done much good and Mormon leaders have done bad.

My love and testimony of the Church is as real and as genuine as anyone's, the difference might be that I can see both the good and the bad. In fact, because of my love for this Church and because I know by the power of the Holy Ghost that this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I am unwilling to ignore or turn a blind eye to the bad. I love this Church and the people too much to just abandon it and let it be. I am not afraid of error, wickedness, and the bad. It doesn't make me think that the whole organization and the whole things is corrupt. It is not so bipolar as those who clearly have a bias feel like it is and try to make it out to be. Things are what they are and if they are what they are then we need to be able and willing to talk about them and deal with them as they are. That is where I am at.

-Finrock

[Amonhi]

Serious question: In light of the recent GA salary disclosures, how does the church justify the following statements?

Inasmuch as there is no paid ministry in the Church, service opportunities are available to men, women, and children of all ages."- Elder Franklin D. Richards

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches." -Elder Boyd K. Packer

"Over the years of my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have greatly appreciated the opportunities for service, for there is no paid ministry." -Elder Derek A. Cuthbert

"I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg." -Elder Thomas S. Monson

"Because there is no paid ministry, almost every churchgoer has a responsibility." Mormon Newsroom

We recognize how busy you are. Without a paid professional ministry, the responsibility for administering the Church depends on you consecrated members. Quinton Cook April 2012

We have no professionally trained and salaried clergy in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Dallin Oaks April 2012

I have two ideas for this.

They aren't being paid for their ministry as the Lords servants. They are only being paid for their secondary roles as CEOS of the for profit corporate side of the church which has numerous businesses and is separate from the ministry side of things. They make their money when they make financial decisions, not spiritual ones. So technically this is true if you think of it this way.

Or maybe they do not consider themselves as clergy or ministry, and they believe ministers or clergy only refer to local leaders like bishops, teachers and stake leaders?

THe idea that hey are paid for their non-religious roles made sense to me until I realized that they got those roles with their callings. If you are called to be an apostle for the church and placed into a role on a board as a result, then being an apostle means being a business man. They become married in a way that requires the person to be both or neither. They are getting paid for both or neither.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Finrock]

Serious question: In light of the recent GA salary disclosures, how does the church justify the following statements?

Inasmuch as there is no paid ministry in the Church, service opportunities are available to men, women, and children of all ages."- Elder Franklin D. Richards

"In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints there is no paid ministry, no professional clergy, as is common in other churches." -Elder Boyd K. Packer

"Over the years of my membership in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I have greatly appreciated the opportunities for service, for there is no paid ministry." -Elder Derek A. Cuthbert

"I explained also that our Church has no paid ministry and indicated that these were two reasons why we were able to build the buildings then under way, including the beautiful temple at Freiberg." -Elder Thomas S. Monson

"Because there is no paid ministry, almost every churchgoer has a responsibility." Mormon Newsroom

We recognize how busy you are. Without a paid professional ministry, the responsibility for administering the Church depends on you consecrated members. Quinton Cook April 2012

We have no professionally trained and salaried clergy in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Dallin Oaks April 2012

I have two ideas for this.

They aren't being paid for their ministry as the Lords servants. They are only being paid for their secondary roles as CEOS of the for profit corporate side of the church which has numerous businesses and is separate from the ministry side of things. They make their money when they make financial decisions, not spiritual ones. So technically this is true if you think of it this way.

Or maybe they do not consider themselves as clergy or ministry, and they believe ministers or clergy only refer to local leaders like bishops, teachers and stake leaders?

Thanks for the thoughtful answers.

-Finrock

[Dlight]

THe idea that hey are paid for their non-religious roles made sense to me until I realized that they got those roles with their callings. If you are called to be an apostle for the church and placed into a role on a board as a result, then being an apostle means being a business man. They become married in a way that requires the person to be both or neither. They are getting paid for both or neither.

Peace,
Amonhi

I sometimes feel it would be best if someone else was appointed to run the corporate side of things and they just focused in on the spiritual, but what do I know?

It's hard to know how the Lord would direct his followers today with all the nuances and subtleties of modern technology and modern law. A global church. I want to give the brethren the benefit of the doubt, but I am glad I do not have their accountability and stewardship. The Lord will be their judge.

I am reminded of two scriptures

2 Nephi 28:14
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.

Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:22
22 For in those days there shall also arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.


I don't mean to make an excuse for sin, we should always be working to rid ourselves of it. But I feel like Christs message was to show the pharisees the absurdity of their laws in order to help them understand their entire salvation was dependent on the atonement, and not on their ability to be obedient to the laws. He set the bar so high, much higher than their own beliefs, and commands us to be perfect. God can allow no less, but we can only be perfect in Christ through the atonement.

Can any man other than Christ be perfect in this life? No. When people get very close to God, I wonder if Satan also is given power to have a greater ability to deceive us in certain ways. Through this deception, even the greatest of us will die and realize how far we fell short of Christs perfect law, and how saved we truly are because of the atonement.

When I listen to the brethren speak, I feel inspired, and that is enough for me to keep listening while letting the spirit instruct me and confirm to me the parts I need to understand. Being angry, accusing, or anything of that nature can only breed in me a spirit of contention and judgement which is the greater sin and will put my soul in greater jeopardy than any sinner.

Sure we have to judge righteously, but I will just do that for myself and not others as much as possible. I will judge myself and make choices on my own value system and let others have theirs. In the end I have faith Christ can sort it all out.

[Dlight]

THe idea that hey are paid for their non-religious roles made sense to me until I realized that they got those roles with their callings. If you are called to be an apostle for the church and placed into a role on a board as a result, then being an apostle means being a business man. They become married in a way that requires the person to be both or neither. They are getting paid for both or neither.

Peace,
Amonhi

I sometimes feel it would be best if someone else was appointed to run the corporate side of things and they just focused in on the spiritual, but what do I know?

It's hard to know how the Lord would direct his followers today with all the nuances and subtleties of modern technology and modern law. A global church. I want to give the brethren the benefit of the doubt, but I am glad I do not have their accountability and stewardship. The Lord will be their judge.

I am reminded of a scripture

2 Nephi 28:14
14 They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men.


I don't mean to make an excuse for sin, we should always be working to rid ourselves of it. But I feel like Christs message was to show the pharisees the absurdity of thinking obedience to their many laws made them righteous in order to help them understand their entire salvation was dependent on the atonement, and not on their ability to be obedient to the laws. He set the bar so high, much higher than their own beliefs, and commands us to be perfect. God can allow no less, but we can only be perfect in Christ through the atonement.

Can any man other than Christ be perfect in this life? No. When people get very close to God, I wonder if Satan also is given power to have a greater ability to deceive us in certain ways. Through this deception, even the greatest of us will die and realize how far we fell short of Christs perfect law, and how saved we truly are because of the atonement.

When I listen to the brethren speak, I feel inspired, and that is enough for me to keep listening while letting the spirit instruct me and confirm to me the parts I need to understand. Being angry, accusing, or anything of that nature can only breed in me a spirit of contention and judgement which is the greater sin and will put my soul in greater jeopardy than any sinner.

Sure we have to judge righteously, but I will just do that for myself and not others as much as possible. I will judge myself and make choices on my own value system and let others have theirs. In the end I have faith Christ can sort it all out.

[Dlight]

One more thing- the original goal of this Church has been to create a zion and have all things equal among ourselves and have God dwell with us like the people in the city of Enoch. It's obvious to me from searching D&C that we have abandoned that goal for the time being, and instead are seeking to follow the Lords temporal law of Carnal Commandments.

The Lord gave the same law to the people of Moses. The Lord explains this thing in D&C 84, probably as a warning.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God; (Same as Joseph Smith taught us)

24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence;

25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also; (Joseph out of ours)

26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;

27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments,

In my view history repeated itself, and we as a people, like the people of Moses are left with the law of carnal commandments.