Steve's post on bartering, survival and the great depression

[bobhenstra]

Also, stories my Grandmother told me years ago;
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8924" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I was ask to bump this thread up by someone from Stephens web site. Now I'm feeling better, I'll be adding to it, have "so" much more to share!

Bob

This question Steve has ask about bartering has piqued my interest! I grew up in Utah during and after WW II, my father was in the Army during the war and my mother had to make ends meet with two children. I’m sure that everybody here knows that WW II was preceded by the great depression, and in fact that depression didn’t end (for us) until after the war had ended.

My parents and my grand parents never tired of telling us, their grand kids, how they survived during those hard times. And to be honest, I remember some of those days. I’ll ask your forgiveness in relating a few of their and my experiences, they just might be helpful to some of you, I’m also aware that most of you already know these thing, so please, bear with me.

My grand parents on my fathers side were hardheaded Dutch immigrants from Friesland, the Netherlands. They were very hard working people who went to bed as soon as it got dark and got up before it got light. I never knew them to do anything different. They were both very stingy, if a nickel rolled across the floor in their presence and you wanted it, you’d better be prepared to suffer serious injury to get it.

During the depression and the war, (not after) all of my grand parents neighbors thought they were rich, but in truth they had very little. But what they did have was chickens, laying hens and a few roosters. They started out with a few hens and ended up with over two hundred laying hens. Grandpa could get anything he wanted with the eggs from those hens, you talk about a powerful bartering tool, those eggs were it.

Dad always commented how much he hated eating chicken, but that’s what they ate at dinner time, once a day. For breakfast they ate eggs, for lunch they ate whatever they were able to get in trade for the remaining eggs, that weren‘t sold or eaten. Chicken soup and dumplings was a common table fare because grandpa would only allow tough old layers that had stopped laying and young roosters to be killed and cooked. He knew which hens weren’t laying by looking at their combs. Roosters, except for one lucky one used to fertilize eggs for hatching, were table fare, that was it! Grandpa knew which hens were sitters and which were not, the old rooster didn’t care---- but he got locked up with the sitters.

Because of those chickens my grandfather who started out as a dirt poor immigrant, he and grandma spent their first five years in America living in an old chicken coop with a bad roof. But by the time the depression and war were over they owned that coop, the big house next to it and little over two hundred acres below it, all because of those chickens, and, my grandpa’s very stingy nature.

It didn’t take grandpa long to discover just where what little money there was,-- was! Using a three wheeled bike he made himself he delivered fresh eggs to the people who lived up on the hill, people who still had a job and a few bucks, or who were simply rich. He got “his” price for those eggs, nobody cheated grandpa! Grandpa only sold eggs to the rich, he traded some eggs to the “lesser” populace for what ever he needed, and “only” what he needed. Grandpa was in no way pretentious, he wore the same clothes until they were completely wore out, biked because he wouldn’t buy gas and tires, oh he hated tires, until one day he found out he could melt them down and make things like door mats out of them. That didn’t last long, but he had amassed a large pile of tires, however he had made the attempt. Then he started using tires for chicken nests, he laughingly claimed to have invented the tire chicken nest---- made especially for chickens that wanted to sit and hatch eggs, he would only allow five chickens to sit on eggs, and then each chicken could only have 6 eggs to hatch.

While grandpa was out selling and trading eggs, grandma was busy house keeping and making and selling egg sandwiches off her front porch that she sold for 5 cents. Using the right ingredients she could make three sandwiches from one egg. Grandma was a tiny bit more charitable the grandpa was, but not much. She had a delicious egg soup that she sold along with the sandwiches, she would feed the hungry when grandpa wasn’t there, but if he were home, the hungry stayed hungry. There were days when she made more money then grandpa did, wow she enjoyed those particular days, she would really give him a bad time when she made more, she relished those days. As soon as grandpa walked in the door grandma would ask him how much he had made, if grandma had made more she would tell him she had made only five cents more, and save the rest for the next days accounting. That .5 cents was a family joke for many years.

Grandpa and grandma, my dad and aunts and uncle didn’t have a years supply to fall back on, they made do with what they had, and did very well for themselves.

Now I see that this missive is getting a little long, and I have much more to say. So I’ll end here and if you like I’ll continue in a few days.

Bob

[minuet1]

Bob, I loved your story. I've been thinking lately that I'd love to live on a farm, or at least have enough room to have some chickens, a cow, and a little garden, then we'd be set. Make do with what you have, and learn to make the best of it is what I picked up from your post.

[ChelC]

You can keep chickens in a very small space! Almost anyone can keep chickens and if in doubt keep them under wraps and only get a few layers. Four layers in a small "tractor" can be kept in a tiny yard and only make noises when they lay (a few of ours really let us know about it!) or get spooked.

I loved hearing that story. We got chickens this spring after a lot of work preparing for them and I can't tell you how much peace they bring for us. I know that we can breed them if need be... we are going to hatch a few this spring for a school project for my son with a home made incubator. I'm trying to figure out where we can fit a milk goat. I think that even if you don't plan on expanding your flock that two milkers and a half dozen hens and a rooster could supply a family with food without much expense.

I've heard stories about children learning to "farm" worms to feed the chickens, collecting bugs, etc. Chickens also love scraps and garden waste. We're lucky enough to get floor sweepings from the mill that my husband used to work for when they are available, and that cuts the cost a bit. So does our vegetable garden, the chickens love fresh greens! Goats, likewise give a lot of bang for the buck, and don't require tons of space.

I'm hoping that with our fruit trees, our garden, food storage, chickens and if we're lucky a goat, we will have some security to survive the tough times to come.

Oh yeah - an old children's playhouse makes a great chicken coop for a small flock. backyardchickens.com has some excellent information for anyone interested.

I would love to hear more stories! All of my grandparents died either before I was born or when I was young and I never really knew them, so I love these stories.

[bobhenstra]

Grandpa H as I mentioned was a miser, a scrooge if you will. He was known to have give something away only twice in his life, and that was a quarter he give one each to my little brother and me one day when we met him on a bus. I remember how astounded my dad was when we told him grandpa had given us the quarter, sons he said, you should keep that quarter as a keep sake, that’s the only quarter that man has ever given away in his whole life. Of course, we spent it.

Grandpa didn’t only sell and barter eggs, he soon realized he wasn’t going to sell eggs to the poor people around the town, and he certainly wasn’t going to give them away. However, they “were” customers! So as he was biking around he would see something he could use, he would approach the people who owned that something and offer them five good laying hens and a rooster (anything to get rid of them d--- worthless roosters), for the object he was interested in. If he were turned down, he would wait a week and go make his offer again. If the people wanted to haggle grandpa would simply say thank you, peddle away , come back a week later and make the same offer. Eventually, he would usually, but not always, get what he wanted.

There was one series of barters that set the example for his sons and daughters to follow. Grandpa had seen an old motorcycle leaning up against a house. He could tell that the people living in the house were destitute, so he walked up to the door and made his offer, they refused, so grandpa left and showed up a week later with the same offer, they wanted more hens, he left again and was back again with the same offer, this time they accepted because he had brought the hens and the rooster with him. The vision of fried rooster must have looked awful good to those poor people.

Grandpa got the motorcycle home, had my Dad and uncle repair it, cost him 6 chickens and 3 dollars in parts. He then started looking for a something he could trade the cycle for. Grandpa always traded up, never down. He would hold onto something for weeks looking for the right trade. Eventually he come across a fellow who had a job, rare in those days, and a car. But the fellow couldn’t afford to buy the gas for the car, but he needed to get to work, and had been walking. So Grandpa offered to trade his motorcycle for the car. The fellow was desperate and agreed to the trade “if” grandpa would throw in some chickens. --- Grandpa,-- had to think on that--------he had no intention of using the car, he just wanted more trading material. He let the poor fellow walk to work for a few days, went back with the motorcycle, .10 cents worth of gas in it, and the trade was made. Grandpa refused to buy more gas and there wasn’t enough to get the car home so he made a deal with a neighbor who had a horse and had his boys go get the car and pull it home. He paid the neighbor a dozen eggs for the use of the horse. Grandpa never drove that car, what he wanted was a small Ford pickup he had seen in a rich guys yard.

Next day he peddled up to the rich guys house, delivered his eggs and ask the fellow if he needed a car. The rich fellow did, they made a deal and the rich guy drove the pickup to grandpas house, with a full tank of gas, and with some extra gas in a bottle, and drove the car home. Grandpa went with him to retrieve his trike. Grandpa only used the pickup for emergencies, but his boys kept it in perfect condition, and of course they wanted to drive it, so grandpa made a deal with them, they put the gas in it, they could use half the gas, the rest belonged to grandpa. Those boys worked their tail ends off getting gas for that truck. What a kid won’t do for wheels!!! Not much they wouldn’t do----

The depression lasted for a decade. After a few years people were showing up on grandpa’s doorstep, he was well known for his trading abilities by then, and they started hiring him to make trades for them. But grandpa wouldn’t work for money, he wanted property, cars, trucks, anything of value. Eggs were more valuable then money!

It all started with a few hens, in two years he owned quite a bit, by the time the depression was over he owned the house and some property, by the time the war was over he owned the house a nice car, pickup and over two hundred acres. A lot of poor people were fed by the chickens he traded,---- and a lot more realized too late they had been taken to the woodshed!

[tick]

Great story, I wish I could hear more like it.

My chickens just started laying this week - Woo Hoo! And I killed a rooster and ate it. Definitely a learning experience, but it was fresh and tasty!

[Stephen]

I have 10 chickens and I live on one acre in the city.

I got rid of the rooster due to the noise. Now I am considering getting one with it's voice box removed just to have on hand!

[truthseeds]

bobhenstraThanks for sharing that...that's a good example of where self-reliance and sharing, caring and faith can get one. "It all started with a few hens..." sounds like a good book

Great story, I wish I could hear more like it.

My chickens just started laying this week - Woo Hoo! And I killed a rooster and ate it. Definitely a learning experience, but it was fresh and tasty!

That's great! I know you were a bit hesitant about that, but it sounds like you followed through (with the murder of ol-what's-his-name rooster). What method did you go with?

We're gearing up for getting chickens next spring. Is 10 enough for a constant supply of eggs?

When we buy a whole chicken, we use every part, even the bones for broth...mmm...mmm...good.

[tick]

Yea, i had some apprehension, but i decided to go for it. I broke his neck and it was over with faster than i expected, a few flops and "Next weeks dinner" (his name) was done with. Bleeding out and gutting was really no worse than dealing with a big fish in my opinion, but feathers was a bit of a chore. If I do it again it should go much faster. All I can say is thank goodness for step by step instruction on the web.

After the death of the Roo we are left with 6 hens, and i expect to get around 4 eggs per day... dunno if that is enough for the truthseeds family though. The few eggs we have had so far are small but perfectly shaped and wayyy good. The yolk is deeper yellow than any store bought egg I have seen. I think we will probably pick up another half dozen more in spring the keep the flock fresh. Now we are kicking around the idea of a couple pygmy goats for some fresh milk but I don't know how that would go with the limited yard size.

[momof4]

Great thread! THese are fun stories to read!

I got 5 baby chicks (pullets) at Easter, and a male rabbit for a "pet." Our 5 chicks are now 5 laying hens. It's so fun to go out each morning and collect the eggs! I thought our city wouldn't allow them. But I called city hall before getting them, and they said we could have 5 hens, no rooster (rooster=nuisance). The best breeds for laying, friendliness, and dual-purpose (meat or eggs), and also heat and cold resistance, in my research, are:

Plymouth Rocks (Barred Rocks, White plymouth rocks, etc.)
Rhode Islands (Rhode Island Reds, Rhode Island Whites, etc.)
The Barred Rocks we have lay bigger eggs, and they are also bigger in size.

Goats: Goat's milk is actually very good if you get the right breed with high fat content to make it taste sweet like cow's milk. Best breeds:

Nigerian Dwarf Goat. Size of large dog. Cost: $100-$300. Fat content of milk: 7-10%. Fertile year round, produces twins and sometimes triplets. Very nice and friendly. Can use dog house as shelter. Produces up to 1/2 gallon/milk/day.

Pygmy Goat, as someone else mentioned. Small breed, dual purpose (meat and milk), high fat content. Don't know much else about them yet.

Nubian Goat The "Jersey Cow" of goats. Cost: $100-$300. Fat content of milk: 5-6%. Fertile very frequently, produces twins mostly. Nice and friendly, though very "talkative." Medium sized goat. Can be used for small pack carrying. Produces about 1 gallon/milk/day.

We are going to buy an already pregnant Nubian doe in a couple of weeks from a lady. I've got another lady lined up to house and milk and care for the doe for $30/month, since zoning laws here don't allow a goat unless you have a larger yard than we do.

Once the doe has her babies and we can wean them, we'll sell the babies for what the doe costs. Then we'll have milk every day for about $1/gallon. Nice.

[jbalm]

ChelC,

Do you guys heat your chicken coop? I was thinking about putting one up, but I didn't know if the chickens would fare too well during a Michigan winter.

[bobhenstra]

It didn’t take Grandpa long to discover that with his trading abilities he could get a much higher value return by trading his eggs for goods instead of simply selling them for money, and his customer base was much larger. Of course he needed some money, and selling about 12 dozen eggs a day filled that need.

But bartering was in his blood, grandpa didn’t trust banks, the only things he trusted were things he could put in his yard that had value, things he could see touch and feel! He had it figured that the depression would end, the coming war won, and he wanted to be in position to slowly sell his assets and retire.

But Grandpa had a problem, his kids were growing up, getting married and leaving the house. His daughters who were in charge of caring for the chickens, were no longer there caring for the chickens. His sons were responsible for getting the fuel to keep the house warm in the winter, and catching fish out of the river about ½ mile away from the house to help feed the family and the chickens, well, they had girl friends, cars and gas. And were no longer particularly interested in “menial” home work. They had learned to barter from their father to get what they wanted or needed. But times were changing, and Dad and his brother wanted to get a job to help in the coming war effort, they had the sense to realize that America was going to get into the war. They both went to work for the railroad. That was “The Job” in their day, everybody wanted to work for the railroad. So Grandpa had to take care of the chickens, and he didn’t like it, not one bit. He could have hired some neighbor hood kids, but he didn’t trust them. So for five years grandpa and Grandma watched the chickens, this continued on until the war was over. We’ll talk about how grandpa kept his chickens fed later.

Dad was a big strapping kid, very muscular and a boxer. He wanted to enlist at age 18 but problems with the veins in his leg caused the army to refuse him. So he had an operation waited a couple of years and tried enlisting again, this time he was successful. Dad went right up in the enlisted ranks mostly because he was older then the average enlistee, the younger enlistees called him Pops, he was 22 years of age, and a Master Sergeant. But Dad was savvy, he had learned well. In between the operation and enlisting he meet my mom. They dated for some time, dad wasn’t in the Church, Mom was but went inactive after marrying dad. Dad smoked, so Mom started smoking much to the great concern of her parents Grandpa and Grandma B. But more about them later. They also left some great “life during the depression” stories.

Dad growing up in the depression learned a lot about survival, this wasn’t book learning, it was experience. For example, Dad could go to the river and come back with 50 fish, trout, whitefish and suckers. He didn’t fish like the normal fishermen fish today, his purpose was food and only food, for his family and those chickens. He developed ways to catch the fish that were almost foolproof. He taught those methods to me and my younger brother, and I taught them to my kids, especially my sons. Dad just called it fishing, I call it survival fishing. To this date, and I’m pushing 67 years of age, I can still catch more fish faster then most any other person, and its legal, ---most of it!

Here is just one of the fishing secrets Dad learned and later taught me. Most fisherman are aware that fish are very fond of the worms living in the banks close to the river your fishing. We use them over any other bait if we insist on fishing with a rod and reel. But trout especially nice big ones like to hang around overhanging bushes. Bushes close to the bank that overhang the water, the thicker the better. Very hard to fish in with a rod and reel, and lots of nice fish live in those spots. However, If you sneak through that brush on the bank above the water with a short piece of leader and a fly, also with a small fishing net, you’ll have a great chance of catching fish, lots of fish as this is almost fool proof. I have seen people without the coordination needed to accomplish this fail, but most catch on quickly, so here it is. When you have fought through the brush to the water, gently clear a small spot of brush away from the water, about a foot wide, also clear the brush away from where you laying up to where the bank drops off to the water. Wait about 10 to 20 minutes for the fish to settle down, just lay there and rest! Tie the fishing leader around your wrist with the fly dangling about a foot below the wrist, slowly reach your hand out the line between your fingers and let the fly just bounce off the water as it flows through the opening you made in the brush. Hang the fly over the water and let it bounce off the surface. You must position your net very close to the water with your off hand. Fish will come up and try to grab the fly, as they do you quickly slide the net under them and pull them in. It’s imperative you get them out of the water as fast as possible. If you let them fight and splash you scare the other fish around them and you’ll have to wait another twenty minutes for things to settle down. This method of fishing gets very exciting, having a 19-20 inch fish jump right in front of your eyes really pumps up the adrenalin. I have used this method fishing streams and rivers supposedly fished out, and caught a limit of fish in less then half an hour. The fish that live under brush overhangs never see a baited hook, they just wait until a bug falls off the brush and eat. They seem to wait in line down there, but I’ll always have several spots I can go to on a specific stream or river.

More later

Bob

[joseph]

Do you guys heat your chicken coop? I was thinking about putting one up, but I didn't know if the chickens would fare too well during a Michigan winter.

It routinely gets negative 30 here during the coldest part of winter. Build a coop that is well insulated and the chickens will be fine (you need to provide some air circulation during the day). A light bulb will also provide a little extra heat. The light will also encourage the hens to keep laying eggs in the winter. The chickens get really close together when it gets cold. Last night a door blew open and I found 11 chickens huddled on a perch on longer than 12 inches. I don't know how they do it, but the chickens know how.

But, honestly, I would wait till spring to acquire a new flock unless you can a get some older birds from the same flock.

[bobhenstra]

Please understand that I’m not attempting to excuse how my grandpa made his living during the depression., although he never forced or attempted to force anybody into any trade. He simply traded from his area of strength, which was at the time, those chickens. Any one of the people he traded with could have raised chickens and done the same thing, few if any in his area did so. I’m also not excusing how my Dad and the rest of his family did things, they took advantage of any opening they could. I’m simply explaining how bartering worked for Grandpa and his kids. Which later explained to me how I was raised, and my being able to understand the challenges I had growing up. The things I had to overcome in the military and later in the mission field, and why!

My grandparents would have nothing to do with the church, nothing! Neither one of them would even talk about the church, except to say “That damn church is rich, they don’t need any of my money” and that would end any discussion.

How grandpa kept all those chickens fed. Well, he accomplished that in several ways, I’ve already mentioned Dad and his brother bringing home fish. Grandpa had the boys build a fire pit near the back fence. They placed a cut down iron drum over the pit. When the fish were cleaned and nothing but fish guts, the normal leavings left, including fish heads, and by the way it would also include the guts and bones of any other hapless animal or bird that entered into the family’s sphere of influence, all parts normally wasted were placed in the homemade pot and cooked, boiled being more accurate. When the pot cooled and the chickens let out of their coop they would make a mad dash to be the first to get to the pot and partake of the goodies therein. It was all quite entertaining, watching them knock each other around. Squawking! The fish heads being their favorite fare, one chicken would get one and twenty chickens would chase that single chicken trying to steal the fish head.

But grandpa had a difficult time finding grain, there wasn’t much available in those days, grain wasn’t grown to feed chickens, it was grown to feed people. And grain was every bit as valuable as eggs. But,--- there were ways! Grandpa also had to feed his flock during hard winters, how did he do that? If there were only a couple of inches of snow on the ground Grandpa ordered the chickens out to scratch their way through the snow to survive. But he kept careful watch on his charges, if they started to look scrawny, from somewhere, somehow, enough grain would magically appear. Grandpa was far from stupid, he knew he had to take care of those chickens.

Between the river and below the house there was a bunch or railroad tracks, called the “Yard” At times trains were parked in the yard on what were called at the time “side rails or side tracks” The trains were made up of various types of containers on wheels called “cars”, boxcars, coal cars etc. Grandpa and the boys would watch very carefully to see when a train was parked, they had larceny on the mind, and they didn’t mind admitting it. But there was a big problem, the railroad police, called “dicks” some say after the cartoon character Dick Tracy., they were armed and they were always around, so Dad and his brother worked on ways to avoid or trick the dicks so they could get at the grain or coal in the cars. They accomplished this in several ways that I won’t get into here, don’t want to give youngsters who might read this any ideas. Suffice it to say, the boys got the grain, not always in large amounts, and also portions of coal. However, grain and coal were not the only goodies the boys confiscated from the RR yard. Perhaps more about this later.

Grandpa had a rule about the grain obtained this way, half went to chicken feed and the other half was turned into flour by the girls. Now, the half that went to the chickens didn’t always go directly to them, a lot of it was saved until the late fall just before a storm was due. The grain was spread out in the field below the house where the chickens spent their days eating bugs, grasshoppers, worms, spiders and various other tasty goodies. Early next Spring all that grain would start growing and eventually turned into a large field of-- well,-- chicken feed! Grandpa’s favorite grains for this were milo, perennial rye, wheat, and amaranth, the latter was planted in the early Spring. The perennial rye never had to be replanted, and no matter the weather one of the grains always grew, most of the time all the grains did well.

Of course other birds and animals would take advantage of the free goodies, but they had to be careful, most ended up as table fare for the family. No bird, or bunny was safe, especially ducks and geese. Which were often collected by soaking grain, mostly corn, in alcohol (home made, some good stories here!) placing it in a special spot near the river. The boys would collect the drunk birds, haul them home in a hand made two wheeled cart, very similar to one I saw on this site. The birds still alive, but with a hangover, their wing feathers clipped, were then placed in a special pen where they recovered and waited until they were needed for the table. It did not matter what kind of bird was collected, it was eventually cleaned and eaten, the best parts for the family, the rest for the chickens.

As you can see, Grandpa’s family ate high on the hog during the depression, they worked their rear ends off, had their fun boxing and playing baseball, the girls doing what girls do, but they had food on the table, they never went hungry! And it wasn’t because they were smart, none of them finished high school. They simply had a dry old skinflint, hardheaded father, who made them do what he told them to do, or “they”--- didn’t eat!

Grandma was a wild foods expert, her specialty was wild greens and mushrooms. Someone in the family had to be, garden seeds were also very hard to get, so again grandma made do with what was available, some might be surprised how well she did.

Bob

[BroJones]

Great to hear from you, Bob! Hope you will keep enlightening us with your stories and information.

I caught this: "biked because he wouldn’t buy gas and tires," Reminds me I need to fix up my bikes and get them ready!

As for the coming depression, I think it will be more like Helaman 11 -- that is, a preface and a humbling in preparation for the Second Coming.. with difficulties in the government as recorded in Hel 11 through 3 Nephi 11. But the lessons from the 1930's depression will be helpful...

Were there roving gangs/marauders during that depression? (These are just some of the Gadianton robbers... the worst IMO are those in "sole management of the government" Hel 6:39) so our situation is different from the 30's...

But chickens and bartering are still good ideas!
(Steven Jones)

[bobhenstra]

Hi again Steve!

There were trouble makers, small groups of people raiding gardens, breaking into homes, but there wasn’t much to steal in grandpa’s neighborhood. As I mentioned grandpa was not pretentious, while he did much better then most, few outside his neighborhood and family knew it. Those few had him looking for particular objects they themselves wanted or needed.

Grandpa had protection, a big dog (member of the family) that I’m sure if I remember right was a Chesapeake. Chessies will eat anything, meat, fruits, veggies, they’re not fussy., very easy to take care of, a bit hard headed and little difficult to train. But great as a protection dog, and the best hunting dogs I have ever owned. My kids grew up with our “Jessie” She went everywhere the kids did. Grandpa had his chessie trained very well. It went with him on every “sales trip” running along besides his trike. Staying next to the trike while grandpa was at the door delivering eggs, or trying to make a deal. Anybody who wanted to mess with grandpa or his eggs had to mess first with the dog, as far as I know, nobody tried. Grandpa also carried a .45 pistol and a large knife on the trike. He traded eggs for the gun, but it had a broken firing pin and didn’t shoot,--- he was the only one who knew that.

The big knife was obvious, attached to the trike’s handlebars, but it’s visibility there wasn’t only for show, the real purpose of the knife was for cutting up large fresh road kill (deer) that grandpa come across.--- Dog food--- do you believe that??

Grandma had a big garden but it was mostly things like squash, pumpkins, cabbage, stick to your ribs types of foods. Her favorite garden was in her basement. She had the boys make her a rectangular box out of scraps gleaned from the “yard,” where the grain come from-----” it was about 8 foot long, and it was waterproofed with wax, then she had them make smaller square boxes with out bottoms or tops, they were about 6 inches high. Then she and the girls went into the fields and dug up dandelions, roots and all, they packed the dandelions into the smaller boxes with bottom of the roots all level with the bottom of the boxes, they packed them in tight, with a little dirt packed around each root. They cut the leaves off the crowns of each plant without damaging the crowns, put the smaller boxes into the larger box, poured some water into the large box and grew dandelion greens in the basement. Dandelion greens grown in the sun are very bitter, grown in the basement they were pale green almost yellow, the bitter taste gone, and were a family favorite steamed or in salads. Jo and I found a little bit of liquid fertilizer didn’t hurt, and the small boxes need to be held about 1/2 inch of the bottom of the big box. You can get an ample harvest out of each box about five times, 8 small boxes will supply enough greens to last a winter.

Jo and I like sprouting seed for veggies and salads much better, but anything that works in an emergency----

Grandma also raised mushrooms in her basement, Jo and I never tried that, but we know you can buy spores on the net.

Grandpa’s favorite drink was dandelion wine, made from the yellow dandelion flowers. We used much of the same process to make our kids favorite, dandelion syrup. Boil the flowers with all green parts removed, add pectin to thicken and sugar to taste and let cool. Bottle in pint jars with normal bottling instructions.

Once after Grandpa passed away Dad and I were at his house. Grandma had moved in with her daughter but grandma “just knew” that grandpa had money hid somewhere in the house or in the yard, he hated banks and had made a pretty good profit selling most of the land he owned. Grandma was convinced that somewhere around a hundred thousand dollars was hid somewhere on the property (1950's). We hunted but never found it, later my brother lived in the house for about a year, he hunted for it, but never found it. However I found something, several dusty jars filled with a golden colored liquid. I pick one up and took it upstairs just as Dad’s brother arrived to help search. They both looked at the bottle, got very excited asking, where did you find that? It only took big muscular Dad a few seconds to open the bottle while Uncle was getting a couple of glasses. They seemed to really enjoy it, whatever it was, I wanted some, but they wouldn’t share. That was alright,---- I knew where several more bottles were.-- but I didn’t get any of that either, Dad and uncle followed me down the stairs and demanded to know if there was more, I was “forced” to tell them.

There was no more searching for money that day----- I just knew that those bottles of dandelion wine were used by Grandpa to stop his kids from searching for that money, knowing what they would do if they found the bottles. If there were money hid somewhere, it had to be around those bottles, but I couldn’t find it, and I looked hard and long. Thinking about it in my later years, I think grandpa would have hid that money in very obvious places, places we would never bother to look.----If indeed Grandpa hid money---------


Bob

[jbalm]

It routinely gets negative 30 here during the coldest part of winter. Build a coop that is well insulated and the chickens will be fine (you need to provide some air circulation during the day). A light bulb will also provide a little extra heat. The light will also encourage the hens to keep laying eggs in the winter. The chickens get really close together when it gets cold. Last night a door blew open and I found 11 chickens huddled on a perch on longer than 12 inches. I don't know how they do it, but the chickens know how.

But, honestly, I would wait till spring to acquire a new flock unless you can a get some older birds from the same flock.

Thank you.

[ChelC]

Jbalm - We keep a heat lamp in our coop, but just because we're suckers. They do huddle up when it's cold, but they've slept outside on one of the roosts for our first couple freezing nights. Our coop is not insulated, but you can keep quite a bit of warmth if you use the deep litter method in the coop. Basically instead of raking out the litter and manure frequently, you stir it up and add litter to it all winter. The manure in the litter will produce heat and start to break down, and it doesn't smell, surprisingly, because you are stirring it up and adding to it. If you're smart you'll throw scratch into it and make the chickens do the stirring for you.

We slaughtered some of our chickens, but we still have 14 and will hatch a few in the spring. I'm curious how you broke their necks, tick. We used a killing cone and I didn't really like it because they would just stare at you while you slit their throats. I hated that. The gutting was easy, I had no problem with that part. We also had a little trouble with plucking them and it was getting dark so we opted to just skin them all. My husband wants to build a plucker. It looks really cool, I'll post the link when I find it. Anyway, our 13 hens have been averaging about 11 eggs a day. I'm not sure what they'll average for the winter. We have 4 Rhode Island Reds, 4 Black Australorps, 2 Buff Orpington, 2 Silver Laced Cochin, and 2 Ameracaunas (1 roo, 1 hen who gives us beautiful green eggs). The Australorps and Reds are our best layers. One of the Australorps routinely gives us gigantic double yolkers. They are so fun.

[jbalm]

Jbalm - We keep a heat lamp in our coop, but just because we're suckers.

Not sure if you remember my talking about it before, but doing that for my goats cost me part of my barn.

[ChelC]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=k9JSgPySk ... re=related

You can find lots of videos called whizbang plucker. There is a book that shows you how, but I don't think it would be hard to figure out, they just have a small motor hooked up to this thing with a bunch of rubber fingers inside. We first saw it on a blog, but I can't find that now.

[ChelC]

Not sure if you remember my talking about it before, but doing that for my goats cost me part of my barn.

I do remember. That's why we tied the heat lamp up so that if they somehow manage to knock the clamp off, it won't fall down.

[tick]

Plucking wasn't so bad, but i did scald the bird before so most of the feathers just came right out. I think a wizzbang plucker would be the way to go for the future. As far as breaking the neck goes, just a quick/strong jerk. It definitely worked, but if i do it again i will just take the head off with a hatchet or something. The neck snap just sent shivers up my spine, I think I would sleep easier with the ol' axe method.

[jbalm]

That's why we tied the heat lamp up so that if they somehow manage to knock the clamp off, it won't fall down.

Glad to hear I finally said something useful.

[ChelC]

I think I would sleep easier with the ol' axe method.

That's the conclusion we reached also. Nothing left to look accusingly at you that way.

[joseph]

I find that skinning is a whole lot easier than plucking. I remember as a kid plucking chickens on hot, humid days on the farm in Alabama. I do not care the re-live those days. But, of course in the South, you had to leave the skin on or you could not call it fried chicken.

[bobhenstra]

Mom and Dad never tired of telling us their stories about the depression, I never tired of hearing them. It was inconceivable to me that people could live through those kinds of hardships, because it seemed I didn’t have to. But to them it was what it was. Then I started hearing the stories of my grandparents in the “old country” Dad’s side. Growing up in a desolate little town in Southern Utah, Mom’s side. Then understanding why Dad challenged me like he did started to make more sense. But I had to get a few years on me for it all to sink in.

I heard about my 4th great grandfather Caleb Baldwin, who spent 6 months in jail with Joseph Smith. But at that time in my life, that story wasn’t significant. I knew my great grandfather Davis (changed from Davies) was a polygamist, he had two wives, that fact wasn’t significant until I left Utah and joined the Church. I had to leave Utah it seems to find the Church. But that’s a long story and I’m sure your thankful I’ll skip that here.

My point to begin with in this thread is to help us understand what people will do to overcome the hardships that hard times will bring upon us.

One day after Dad had all his chores done, a neighbor hood boy who dad played baseball with, invited dad in for some lunch, just a snack, the kid said. Dad watched transfixed as the boy cut two large slabs off a loaf of bread that Dad claimed had sawdust in it, Dad later found out it was dried grass, the kid then spread (pig) lard thickly over the slab of bread, sprinkled sugar on the lard and handed “lunch” to Dad. Dad looked at the lard, he started getting sick to his stomach, he couldn’t partake, he excused himself and went home. When he got there he opened the icebox (no refrigerators in those days) took out three pieces of fried chicken and while eating thought long and hard about Grandpa, and why he was so tough on his kids.

That lard was Dad’s awakening, he was about 14. My awakening come a bit later in life. Because growing up I didn’t have it hard at all. Life was what it was to me also.

The thing I learned that shaped my thoughts most from those stories and my later military training was simply this, when your hungry you’ll eat pretty much anything you can get your hands on. I learned, It’s probable best before hand to know just what’s edible and what isn’t. Wild foods for example.

Dad was always wary of what might happen, what world conditions might befall us, therefore, we also raised a lot of chickens, also rabbits. Every fall we killed the chickens for winter meat. a couple of hundred each fall. We raised Bantams, it’d be more correct to say they raised themselves, but we had all the eggs we wanted and all the meat we needed. We also had seven and a half acres for them to roam on. The killing experience was a love/hate experience for me. I hated the fact that the day was now, however, we got rid of all those crowing roosters, all but one, and all but about 20 hens, sitters, to raise next years "harvest", and they did that all by themselves. We chopped their heads off, scalded them in hot water for 6 seconds and then “rubbed’ the feathers off them. You start with one leg and run you hand down the leg keeping the feathers in your hand, you then use the feathers in your hand to “rub” the rest of the feathers off the chicken, you rub against the grain so to speak When you learn the process correctly, you can pick and clean a chicken in less then a minute. Older chickens take a bit longer, but we had few “older” chickens.

Cleaning the chickens was as simple, we rubbed the feathers off first, all except the tail feathers and wing tip feathers. We cut the part of the chicken “that went over the fence last” and the wing tips at the first joint off, the rest of the feathers went with those parts. A good pair of side cuts makes that job real quick and easy. After that we pulled the skin around the gut open and snapped the chicken, like a quick throwing motion, stopped quickly, which snapped the guts out towards the ground. That takes some practice! But once learned is worth more TV football game time. Skin and clean rabbits with the same snapping motion.

Well, I see that there isn’t much interest in hearing about the depression, Steve has it right, the coming events will be much harsher then those past depression and war years. Get and keep your years supply, and by the way, did you know you can freeze cooking oil? It turns a milky white, you’ll need to open the container and pour out about a cup, put the lid back on and put it into the bottom of your freezer. That and containers filled with water will keep food cold for several days in the freezer when electricity goes out.

I lost my wife to ovarian cancer last April, she was sick for five years. I have decided that if cancer gets me, I won't fight it, no way I'm going through those treatments. I'll have my sons give me a blessing, have on hand the proper pain killers and leave it all up to the Lord. I know whats on the other side, I'll be happy to get there!

Thanks for letting me vent, I needed that!!

Bob