The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[Davka]

It occurred to me recently that

1. We are told in the temple that we are to consider ourselves as Adam and Eve.

2. According to the Second Article of Faith, men will not be punished for Adam's sins but for their own.

Adam's punishment for partaking of the fruit was to be cast out of the Garden of Eden. I really am starting to believe that we each in some way, shape or form partook of the fruit and were cast out of Father's presence, or at least understood and accepted what Adam and Eve had done and chose to be born into a fallen existence anyway. Otherwise being here, out of Father's presence, would be a punishment for a sin we did not commit.

Adam and Eve will not have to apologize to us. They are responsible for their own sins and progression, as are we.

[LoveIsTruth]

For Adam to know good from evil he needed to transgress and lose his innocence...

How did Jesus learn good from evil? He was born with the same veil over his mind.
He did not know good from evil just like Adam (Isaiah 7:14,15) .

God never requires that anyone loses their innocence. Only the devil requires that, and he is a liar.

Jesus never lost His innocence. He got His eyes opened by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them. Adam's duty was to do the same. He failed.

in order for Jehovah's role of Savior of human race to commence.

The Savior would have been born in a different fallen world instead of earth. Adam's duty was NOT to partake. He failed to keep the commandment.

Jesus said it best: "It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" ( Luke 17:1) And Adam indeed was made partaker of woe.

If he did not fall...you would not be.

False.

God commanded Adam to have children WITHOUT the fall. This means Adam could have done so if he would have chosen to listen to the Father more than the devil.

Only Christ was called to walk without sin...not Adam

All are called to walk without sin: "for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." (Alma 45:16)

You claim Adam should have done better???? You claim that there was a better way???

If there were no better way, then God is a liar, and the word "fall" is meaningless, for what was it that they fell from if there were no better way?
Yes! There was a better way, or there was no fall at all.

Lol lol lol you claim we all wait for some grand apology from Adam for his transgression in Eden????

I claim that Adam will apologize for his fall (much like drunken parents will apologize to their tormented children) and acknowledge that there was indeed a better way that the Father had for him was Adam willing to listen; because if it were not true, then God was a liar.

Therefore Adam will acknowledge this fact and will forever silence the fools who say with the devil that "there was no other way."

It was a lie when the devil said it first, and it is still a lie, and will remain a lie forever, or God would cease to be God.

It's you who will need to apologize.

For speaking the truth?

Don't concern yourself with what other men should or should not have done.... Worry about your own stains.

I concern myself with this issue only inasmuch as a lie, unwittingly is being taught in the church, a lie that makes God to be a liar, for He said He gives no commandments unless his children can accomplish them. Transgressing commandments is not accomplishing them.

Read the scriptures ... And honor your Father

Yes, I honor my Heavenly Father, and those who said that Adam had no other way, dishonor Heavenly Father. (Most do this unwittingly, but it still makes God a liar, and therefore is false).

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Adam fell because he was deceived by a lie that men could not be without a fall -- A lie perpetrated by the devil.

Men could be and much better too if Adam listened to his Father in Heaven; then men would be in a paradisaical/millennial state, precisely as the Father commanded Adam from the beginning.

Moreover: change "And they would have had no children" to "And they could have had no children" and you will get a lie.

Adam COULD have had his eyes opened without transgression and his posterity without a fall, if he WOULD have listened to the Father and resisted the temptation of the devil, as the Father commanded him.

He who has ears to hear...

[LoveIsTruth]

Adam and Eve will not have to apologize to us. They are responsible for their own sins and progression, as are we.

Adam will acknowledge that the Father indeed had a better way for him, had he (Adam) listened to the Father in the garden.

If Adam does not do this, he will not be permitted to rule, for denying the fact that the Father had a better way for Adam, makes:
1) the Father a liar,
2) the word "fall" meaningless, and
3) the atonement of Christ unnecessary.

False on all three counts.

[nightlight]

For Adam to know good from evil he needed to transgress and lose his innocence...

How did Jesus learn good from evil? He was born with the same veil over his mind.
He did not know good from evil just like Adam (Isaiah 7:14,15) .

God never requires that anyone loses their innocence. Only the devil requires that, and he is a liar.

Jesus never lost His innocence. He got His eyes opened by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them. Adam's duty was to do the same. He failed.

in order for Jehovah's role of Savior of human race to commence.

The Savior would have been born in a different fallen world instead of earth. Adam's duty was NOT to partake. He failed to keep the commandment.

Jesus said it best: "It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" ( Luke 17:1) And Adam indeed was made partaker of woe.

If he did not fall...you would not be.

False.

God commanded Adam to have children WITHOUT the fall. This means Adam could have done so if he would have chosen to listen to the Father more than the devil.

Only Christ was called to walk without sin...not Adam

All are called to walk without sin: "for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance." (Alma 45:16)

You claim Adam should have done better???? You claim that there was a better way???

If there were no better way, then God is a liar, and the word "fall" is meaningless, for what was it that they fell from if there were no better way?
Yes! There was a better way, or there was no fall at all.

Lol lol lol you claim we all wait for some grand apology from Adam for his transgression in Eden????

I claim that Adam will apologize for his fall (much like drunken parents will apologize to their tormented children) and acknowledge that there was indeed a better way that the Father had for him was Adam willing to listen; because if it were not true, then God was a liar.

Therefore Adam will acknowledge this fact and will forever silence the fools who say with the devil that "there was no other way."

It was a lie when the devil said it first, and it is still a lie, and will remain a lie forever, or God would cease to be God.

It's you who will need to apologize.

For speaking the truth?

Don't concern yourself with what other men should or should not have done.... Worry about your own stains.

I concern myself with this issue only inasmuch as a lie, unwittingly is being taught in the church, a lie that makes God to be a liar, for He said He gives no commandments unless his children can accomplish them. Transgressing commandments is not accomplishing them.

Read the scriptures ... And honor your Father

Yes, I honor my Heavenly Father, and those who said that Adam had no other way, dishonor Heavenly Father. (Most do this unwittingly, but it is still makes God a liar, and therefore is false).

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.

Adam fell because he was deceived by a lie that men could not be without a fall -- A lie perpetrated by the devil.

Men could be and much better too if Adam listened to his Father in Heaven; then men would be in a paradisaical/millennial state, precisely as the Father commanded Adam from the beginning.

Moreover: change "And they would have had no children" to "And they could have had no children" and you will get a lie.

Adam COULD have had his eyes opened without transgression and his posterity without a fall, if he WOULD have listened to the Father and resisted the temptation of the devil, as the Father commanded him.

He who has ears to hear...

What difference has this belief made in your life?

[LoveIsTruth]

What difference has this belief made in your life?

Good question! Thank you.

It shows me
a) that God's plan is much more magnificent and perfect than we were led to believe, and that
b) His character is perfect, and free from sociopathic flaws that are necessarily implied by those who say that there was no other way.

Quoting from the OP:

In the endowment we learn that God said to Adam and Eve:
“Be fruitful and multiply, ... Dress this garden, and take good care of it, be happy and have joy therein.”

Now, think for a moment: If none of this was possible without the fall (neither multiplying, nor having joy, for Lehi said "having no joy") this would make God a cruel liar, which would cause him cease to be God!

No, really, think of this: This is what many in this church erroneously teach that God in essence said: "Here is this great and wonderful garden, be fruitful and multiply, be happy and have joy therein. But, by the way, if you do multiply, you will be kicked out of here, O, and you can have no joy unless you are kicked out!"

Do you see how utterly twisted, and self-contradictory, and outright wicked this would be?

Yet people ascribe this wickedness and self-contradiction to God himself! They make God a liar, and basically a sociopath, to fit their own self-contradictory notions!

So both God's plan and character are way more magnificent than many implied.

Adam and Eve and their posterity could have started and continued in paradise, precisely as God commanded them!
This shows how magnificent and generous God's plan really was from the beginning!

Now this glory will be restored, but only after the Second Coming, in the millennium, where billions of children will be born and live out their lives unto salvation without ever knowing the lone and dreary world! --What Adam could have had, had he not fallen.

That was plan A from which Adam fell, the same plan that many worlds succeeded to partake of without a fall. And it will be restored to this earth.

[nightlight]

What difference has this belief made in your life?

Good question! Thank you.

It shows me
a) that God's plan is much more magnificent and perfect than we were led to believe, and that
b) His character is perfect, and free from sociopathic flaws that are necessarily implied by those who say that there was no other way.

Quoting from the OP:

In the endowment we learn that God said to Adam and Eve:
“Be fruitful and multiply, ... Dress this garden, and take good care of it, be happy and have joy therein.”

Now, think for a moment: If none of this was possible without the fall (neither multiplying, nor having joy, for Lehi said "having no joy") this would make God a cruel liar, which would cause him cease to be God!

No, really, think of this: This is what many in this church erroneously teach that God in essence said: "Here is this great and wonderful garden, be fruitful and multiply, be happy and have joy therein. But, by the way, if you do multiply, you will be kicked out of here, O, and you can have no joy unless you are kicked out!"

Do you see how utterly twisted, and self-contradictory, and outright wicked this would be?

Yet people ascribe this wickedness and self-contradiction to God himself! They make God a liar, and basically a sociopath, to fit their own self-contradictory notions!

So both God's plan and character are way more magnificent than many implied.

Adam and Eve and their posterity could have started and continued in paradise, precisely as God commanded them!
This shows how magnificent and generous God's plan really was from the beginning!

Now this glory will be restored, but only after the Second Coming, in the millennium, where billions of children will be born and live out their lives unto salvation without ever knowing the lone and dreary world! --What Adam could have had, had he not fallen.

That was plan A from which Adam fell, the same plan that many worlds succeeded to partake of without a fall. And it will be restored to this earth.

God is all knowing....Him having a plan "B" is redundant

Before the earths foundation was even laid, God ordained Jehovah to come to this earth and die on a tree.Only in a fallen world would this be possible.

[LoveIsTruth]

God is all knowing....Him having a plan "B" is redundant

It is all One plan with different contingencies: A and B.

Again, if there were not plan A, there was no fall; for what was it that they "fell" from? Plan A, a better plan, of course!

And because A is better than B, hence the term "fall" is fully appropriate.

Before the earths foundation was even laid, God ordained Jehovah to come to this earth and die on a tree.Only in a fallen world would this be possible.

Already answered that.

If Adam did his duty, and did NOT fall, as God commanded him, then Adam and his posterity would live in a paradise, and the Savior would have been born to a different fallen world.

In the words of Jesus himself: "It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!"(Luke 17:1)

So the Savior would have been born anyway, only not here.

And His atonement is needed by all below Him, fall or no fall.

But woe to that world that falls! And yes, it is a self-inflicted woe. As Joseph Smith said: men are their own judges and their own tormentors.

[nightlight]

God is all knowing....Him having a plan "B" is redundant

It is all One plan with different contingencies: A and B.

Again, if there were not plan A, there was no fall; for what was it that they "fell" from? Plan A, a better plan, of course!

And because A is better than B, hence the term "fall" is fully appropriate.

Before the earths foundation was even laid, God ordained Jehovah to come to this earth and die on a tree.Only in a fallen world would this be possible.

Already answered that.

If Adam did his duty, and did NOT fall, as God commanded him, then Adam and his posterity would live in a paradise, and the Savior would have been born to a different fallen world.

In the words of Jesus himself: "It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!"(Luke 17:1)

So the Savior would have been born anyway, only not here.

And His atonement is needed by all below Him, fall or no fall.

But woe to that world that falls!

A lot of "ifs"....

They fell from God presence.... Not from God's plan

And again... God is all knowing.... him having a contingency plan is redundant.

All things were established in the Council of Heaven before the Earth(s) was/were. In your theory, Elohim himself wouldn't know what planet He would have to send His son to.... God knew what Michael would do before he placed him in Eden... Meaning God ordained this Earth to be there where Jesus Christ would be lifted up on the tree.

Lehi say they would not have had children in the state they were in... if your theory was correct their first sin would have been not having children..... Not eating from the fruit

You based all of this off of when God was meaning he wanted them to have children.... all this based off of your interpretation of one scripture

God says He is all-knowing, your theory makes God not all knowing.... Yours is a theory that makes God a liar

[LoveIsTruth]

They fell from God presence.... Not from God's plan

The word "fall" implies error and transgression.

They did not leave, they were kicked out ("driven out") --for transgression. Key difference.

So they fell from a better plan and world to a contingent plan and a fallen world.

Read this section in the OP:
"Is there evidence in the scriptures that there was Plan A and Plan B for Adam?"

You will find that before the fall there was the first plan or commandments (Alma 12:31), and after the fall there was the second plan, or as Alma puts it "second commandments" (Alma 12:37).

And again... God is all knowing.... him having a contingency plan is redundant.

As I said, to God it is all one plan, but to us He gives it in contingencies: "If you will do this, this will happen; and if you do that, that will happen." But it is all one plan.

Even in the temple they say "IF they yield to temptation, we will provide a Savior for them."--contingency plan. That's what "IF" means.

God knowing the end from the beginning does not mean man can do no wrong, or cannot choose for himself. He can, and he does. And God said: IF you keep my commandments you will be blessed, and if you don't keep my commandments you will be cursed." -- Contingency plans given to men. It is all over the scriptures. Read it for yourself.

All things were established in the Council of Heaven before the Earth(s) was/were. In your theory, Elohim himself wouldn't know what planet He would have to send His son to....

Not true. God knows what men will choose, the end from the beginning, but he lets them choose, and they are free to choose for themselves, or God would cease to be God.

The fact that he knows what you will choose does not deny the fact that you are free to choose.

God knew what Michael would do before he placed him in Eden... Meaning God ordained this Earth to be there where Jesus Christ would be lifted up on the tree.

Yes. God also knew that Lucifer would rebel and become Satan and ordained him for condemnation. It does not make rebellion right thing to do, nor justifies Satan in his wickedness. All are responsible to God for the choices they make, and God will bring every work into judgment.

So God knowing that Adam would fall did not make partaking of the forbidden fruit the right thing to do.

If you carry out your faulty logic to its conclusion, there can be no sin or wrong because God knows the end from the beginning. And that is obviously not true. God knows all things, the end from the beginning; but God knowing what will happen does not absolve you from responsibility for your actions!

Adam did wrong in disobeying the Lord, which was the cause of Adam's fall.

Wrong does not become right because God knew it beforehand.

Lehi say they would not have had children in the state they were in...

Yes. They needed their eyes opened first before they would have children.

But what Lehi did not say, which is nevertheless true, that Adam and Eve could have had their eyes opened by RESISTING temptation, instead of yielding unto it.

This is why it was called "the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" because whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to partake of it, their eyes would have been opened to know good and evil, for it is the exposure to opposites that opens eyes, and not fruits and trees.

if your theory was correct their first sin would have been not having children..... Not eating from the fruit

Not having children was their first transgression of omission. But omission is not enough to open eyes. One needs to be exposed to opposition to know good and evil. The devil provided that opposition.

But Adam and Eve did not have to yield to the temptation. They should have resisted it as the Father commanded them: Then their eyes would have been opened without transgression, and they would have been able to have children without the fall, in paradise, precisely as the Father commanded them. God gives no commandments to anyone unless they CAN do them.

You based all of this off of when God was meaning he wanted them to have children.... all this based off of your interpretation of one scripture

My conclusion is proven by multitude of scriptures. You will find them in the OP.

God says He is all-knowing, your theory makes God not all knowing.... Yours is a theory that makes God a liar

My theory never said that. Care to show? Therefore your conclusion is false.

[nightlight]

They fell from God presence.... Not from God's plan

The word "fall" implies error and transgression.

They did not leave, they were kicked out ("driven out") --for transgression. Key difference.

So they fell from a better plan and world to a contingent plan and a fallen world.

Read this section in the OP:
"Is there evidence in the scriptures that there was Plan A and Plan B for Adam?"

You will find that before the fall there was the first plan or commandments (Alma 12:31), and after the fall there was the second plan, or as Alma puts it "second commandments" (Alma 12:37).

And again... God is all knowing.... him having a contingency plan is redundant.

As I said, to God it is all one plan, but to us He gives it in contingencies: "If you will do this, this will happen; and if you do that, that will happen." But it is all one plan.

Even in the temple they say "IF they yield to temptation, we will provide a Savior for them."--contingency plan. That's what "IF" means.

God knowing the end from the beginning does not mean man can do no wrong, or cannot choose for himself. He can, and he does. And God said: IF you keep my commandments you will be blessed, and if you don't keep my commandments you will be cursed." -- Contingency plans given to men. It is all over the scriptures. Read it for yourself.

All things were established in the Council of Heaven before the Earth(s) was/were. In your theory, Elohim himself wouldn't know what planet He would have to send His son to....

Not true. God knows what men will choose, the end from the beginning, but he lets them choose, and they are free to choose for themselves, or God would cease to be God.

The fact that he knows what you will choose does not deny the fact that you are free to choose.

God knew what Michael would do before he placed him in Eden... Meaning God ordained this Earth to be there where Jesus Christ would be lifted up on the tree.

Yes. God also knew that Lucifer would rebel and become Satan and ordained him for condemnation. It does not make rebellion right thing to do, nor justifies Satan in his wickedness. All are responsible to God for the choices they make, and God will bring every work into judgment.

So God knowing that Adam would fall did not make partaking of the forbidden fruit the right thing to do.

If you carry out your faulty logic to its conclusion, there can be no sin or wrong because God knows the end from the beginning. And that is obviously not true. God knows all things, the end from the beginning; but God knowing what will happen does not absolve you from responsibility for your actions!

Adam did wrong in disobeying the Lord, which was the cause of Adam's fall.

Wrong does not become right because God knew it beforehand.

Lehi say they would not have had children in the state they were in...

Yes. They needed their eyes opened first before they would have children.

But what Lehi did not say, which is nevertheless true, that Adam and Eve could have had their eyes opened by RESISTING temptation, instead of yielding unto it.

This is why it was called "the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" because whether they resisted or yielded to the temptation to partake of it, their eyes would have been opened to know good and evil, for it is the exposure to opposites that opens eyes, and not fruits and trees.

if your theory was correct their first sin would have been not having children..... Not eating from the fruit

Not having children was their first transgression of omission. But omission is not enough to open eyes. One needs to be exposed to opposition to know good and evil. The devil provided that opposition.

But Adam and Eve did not have to yield to the temptation. They should have resisted it as the Father commanded them: Then their eyes would have been opened without transgression, and they would have been able to have children without the fall, in paradise, precisely as the Father commanded them. God gives no commandments to anyone unless they CAN do them.

You based all of this off of when God was meaning he wanted them to have children.... all this based off of your interpretation of one scripture

My conclusion is proven by multitude of scriptures. You will find them in the OP.

God says He is all-knowing, your theory makes God not all knowing.... Yours is a theory that makes God a liar

My theory never said that. Care to show? Therefore your conclusion is false.

Jesus Christ is not a contingency plan....He is the plan. You are playing on semantics. You claim you only need Christ as much has you do because of Adams transgression..........You are breaking a Article of Faith in a strange way

Its strange how people think God knowing every choice they will make some how limits their agency.....
I never claimed one would not be accountable because God sees beyond time....that is stupid.

1 plan, no contingency.

Your theory has echos of Satan's plan.

You speak against doctrine...

Jesus Christ did not sin but knew what sin was......Jesus Christ never left the Father, but the Father left him.
He had to go through these things to be able to succor His people.....because and one point all mankind would experience this Fall from Gods presence.

You have no authority to teach new doctrine.

You casting blame at a man who is much more than you

[LoveIsTruth]

Jesus Christ is not a contingency plan....He is the plan.

"If they yield to the temptation, we will provide a Savior for them." God has said that. Not just me.

You are playing on semantics.

Dito.

You claim you only need Christ as much has you do because of Adams transgression..........

This is what I actually claimed:

And His atonement is needed by all below Him, fall or no fall.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43305&p=893336#p893299

So you are factually incorrect.

1 plan, no contingency.

Care to define the word "IF" then?

Your theory has echos of Satan's plan.

You speak against doctrine...

Show please.

It was Satan's doctrine that "there is no other way."

Satan said that.

God never said that, neither can He say that because it is a lie and is in direct contradiction to His commandments, which contradiction is the definition of evil and wrong.

If God were to say that, He would be contradicting Himself and would cease to be God.

Therefore this doctrine is a boldfaced lie, wrong as sin itself, was, and ever will be, but you repeat it after Satan who was the first to say it, the direct negation of the commandment of God!

Who is then echoing Satan's plan?

You have no authority to teach new doctrine.

The doctrine is not new. It was recorded in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Temple Endowment. They all support it, and are the proof of it, together with Reason and the Spirit of God.

That's all the authority I need, and I defy earth and hell to refute this truth. They might as well dethrone Jehovah as to disprove this doctrine.

You casting blame at a man who is much more than you

What will you say when that man himself will silence you by admitting that God indeed had a better plan for him in the garden of Eden, if he had listened to God rather than the devil?

Truth speaks for itself. No one can prevail against it.

Mark my word.

[nightlight]

Jesus Christ is not a contingency plan....He is the plan.

"If they yield to the temptation, we will provide a Savior for them." God has said that. Not just me.

You are playing on semantics.

Dito.

You claim you only need Christ as much has you do because of Adams transgression..........

This is what I actually claimed:

And His atonement is needed by all below Him, fall or no fall.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=43305&p=893336#p893299

So you are factually incorrect.

1 plan, no contingency.

Care to define the word "IF" then?

Your theory has echos of Satan's plan.

You speak against doctrine...

Show please.

It was Satan's doctrine that "there is no other way."

Satan said that.

God never said that, neither can He say that because it is a lie and is in direct contradiction to His commandments, which contradiction is the definition of evil and wrong.

If God were to say that, He would be contradicting Himself and would cease to be God.

Therefore this doctrine is a boldfaced lie, wrong as sin itself, was, and ever will be, but you repeat it after Satan who was the first to say it, the direct negation of the commandment of God!

Who is then echoing Satan's plan?

You have no authority to teach new doctrine.

The doctrine is not new. It was recorded in the Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Temple Endowment. They all support it, and are the proof of it, together with Reason and the Spirit of God.

That's all the authority I need, and I defy earth and hell to refute this truth. They might as well dethrone Jehovah as to disprove this doctrine.

You casting blame at a man who is much more than you

What will you say when that man himself will silence you by admitting that God indeed had a better plan for him in the garden of Eden, if he had listened to God rather than the devil?

Truth speaks for itself. No one can prevail against it.

Mark my word.

I will mark your word for it. I'll find you in the hereafter to collect...something cool we use in heaven, you'll give it to me for being correct

[LoveIsTruth]

I will mark your word for it. I'll find you in the hereafter to collect...something cool we use in heaven, you'll give it to me for being correct

Same here. Sounds good.

[LoveIsTruth]

Eve fell for stupidity.
Adam fell for lust.

Prove it.
Ok.

For Eve:

 1 Timothy. 2:14 
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

That's stupidity, and also disregard for the commandments of the Father.


As for Adam:
Adam was seduced by his wife to transgress the commandment of God, because he put his desires for his wife above God. That is the definition of lust.

"But there was no other way!" says Satan.

There was another way. Fully rejecting Satan's offer in the garden would have opened Adam's eyes without any transgression or fall. Just like Jesus got his eyes opened by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them.

And even if Eve fell, Adam should not have.

But how would he multiply and replenish the earth without Eve?

He would get another wife who would listen to the Father instead of Satan. That's how. "You will be left alone in the garden of Eden" was Satan's rationalization to get Adam to disobey God, and it was false.

God never requires braking his commandments in order to keep them, for that is a self-contradiction which would cause Him to cease to be God.

If Eve transgressed, Adam should have been faithful, and then he would have remained without the fall and would have gotten another wife, so that he could keep the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. In which case the earth would have been in the state similar to that which will prevail in the Millennium -- a Terrestrial state, where billions of children are born without ever knowing a fallen, lone and dreary world, just like the Father commanded Adam from the beginning.

So men "could be" and much better too, without Adam partaking of the forbidden fruit, had Adam listened to the Father instead of his fallen wife and the devil. There is a key lesson in that.

"I will partake that men might be" was Satan's rationalization that he gave to Adam, to trick him to disobey the Father.

Men might be much better if you did not partake, Adam. Father was right, and you were dead wrong. Pun intended.

"No one could have done better than Adam in the Garden. All worlds follow the path of the fall. This is how the Father gained His knowledge" says Satan.

And he is wrong on all counts.

There were many men who overcame Telestial world and gained a Terrestrial one like Enoch, Melchizedek, and many others. (Instead of losing Terrestrial for Telestial like Adam done). If someone like them was in the garden, they would not have fallen, and the world would have started in a Terrestrial, Millennial state, like many other worlds have.

And as for the Father gaining knowledge: Jesus is the perfect illustration how God gains knowledge--it is by resisting temptations instead of yielding to them.

So Satan lied on every count.

The Father's way WAS the better way, and He never contradicts Himself.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

[LoveIsTruth]

O, But LIT, your opinion does not agree with the prophets opinion!

No, it does not on this matter, but I care but little about prophet's opinions. The only opinion I care about is God's, because God's opinions are always true, and the prophet's opinions are not.

Do you support the Prophet and the President of the Church? Yes! He is holding the keys of the kingdom, and is a very good man. That I support, and will always support, because I love that! But I do not support his errors of opinion, neither would I be a friend to the prophet if I did.

Are you one finding fault? No. I hope not. I simply defend God against abominable and faulty opinions.

That's all.

Does God need you defending Him? I need it. Let all men be wrong, but God be true, or He would not be a God.

And that opinion you can hang on to!

Cheers

[nightlight]

O, But LIT, your opinion does not agree with the prophets opinion!

No, it does not on this matter, but I care but little about prophet's opinions. The only opinion I care about is God's, because God's opinions are always true, and the prophet's opinions are not.

Do you support the Prophet and the President of the Church? Yes! He is holding the keys of the kingdom, and is a very good man. That I support, and will always support, because I love that! But I do not support his errors of opinion, neither would I be a friend to the prophet if I did.

Are you one finding fault? No. I hope not. I simply defend God against abominable and faulty opinions.

That's all.

Does God need you defending Him? I need it. Let all men be wrong, but God be true, or He would not be a God.

And that opinion you can hang on to!

Cheers

Lol gotta love the self Q&A convo lol

While I disagree with you... I like your boldness. You do have some good points. What a tragedy if you're correct about this. But....I know Christ was ordained to come to this earth before this earth was....and so was His 7 Archangels. All this...was the way He planned it to be. Opposition in all things.... Sweat for 6 days and rest on the 7th.

Your theory leaves out opposition...which cancels out progression

I knew all this Adam&Eve talk would lead to a visit from you.

[Jesef]

LiT, why again did we all choose to come to this wretched world, the same as stupid Eve & lustful Adam?

[LoveIsTruth]

Lol gotta love the self Q&A convo lol

While I disagree with you... I like your boldness. You do have some good points.

Thank you!

What a tragedy if you're correct about this.

Why? I think it would be a tragedy if I wasn't, because then God would be a self-contradictory God, and no God at all!

But....I know Christ was ordained to come to this earth before this earth was....and so was His 7 Archangels. All this...was the way He planned it to be. Opposition in all things.... Sweat for 6 days and rest on the 7th.

I agree on all counts. My point does not preclude all these things at all.
Look, Abraham was ordained to suffer, and God knew that he would suffer from the hand of his wicked father Terah. Yet this foreknowledge of God does not make Terah's behavior the right thing to do. It was still a sin even though God knew it would happen.

The same with Adam. God knew Adam would fall, but it did not make Adam's behavior the right thing to do. It was wrong, because it was against the commandments of God, and God had a better way for Adam, had Adam listened to Him.

If this faulty logic be extended to its logical conclusion, there is no sin at all because God knows all things, the end from the beginning, and all the sins and mistakes before men ever commit them. Such a logical conclusion leads to an absurdity, because it is based on a false premise.
What premise? That if something is known and is a part of God's plan it is no longer a sin. That premise is false.

Think of it, hell itself is a part of God's plan. It doesn't mean that it is recommended though. In fact, it is forbidden.

So also was Adam's fall. It was known by God before hand, but forbidden, because it was wrong. Why was it wrong? Because there was a better way. What better way? Why, to listen to the Father instead of the devil. Then Adam would have had his eyes opened by resisting temptation instead of yielding to it, and the world would have began in a Millennial state as the Father commended, instead of a fallen, lone and dreary world.

Your theory leaves out opposition...which cancels out progression

Who said there is no opposition in the Terrestrial/Millennial world?

Have you not read the scriptures which describe terrible conflicts in this Terrestrial world? (D&C 88:113-115)
Indeed, the conflict will be so intense that the Earth itself shall pass away in the end of it.

So there is plenty of opportunity for opposition in a Terrestrial state, (as well as was in the Garden of Eden itself!)

In fact, the idea that the only way for Adam to experience sorrow was to fall, is a doctrine of the devil, and is false. There is infinite opportunity for everyone to experience sorrow without any transgression or fall required on their part. Christ being the perfect example of that.

But if Adam did not fall, where would Christ suffer? In an other fallen world of course!

As Jesus put it: "It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" (Luke 17:1)

Or in other words: "It is impossible but some worlds will fall, but woe to that world that falls!"

Wicked suffer because of their own mistakes, and the righteous because of the mistakes of others.

This is why transgression and fall is forbidden by God, because it is unnecessary, because there is a better way: suffer for mistakes of others, instead of your own.

So as I said, there were infinite opportunities for Adam and Eve suffering without any fall required on their part!

That's the point.

And Satan lies when he says otherwise.

The basic infallible rule is this: If it is according to God's commandments, it is good. And if it is contrary to God's commandments, it is NOT good.

That's all. Stick to that, and you will not be deceived like Adam and Eve were deceived. Were they deceived? Yes! Remember the scripture: "that being who beguiled our first parents"? (2 Nephi 9:9)

Beguiled means deceived.

So the scripture says they were deceived. Why were they deceived? Because there was a better way, that's why, or God would be a self-contradictory liar.

But because there indeed was another way, it is Satan that is a self-contradictory liar, and not God.

"There is no other way" was the big lie.

I knew all this Adam&Eve talk would lead to a visit from you.

You were right

Thank you.

[LoveIsTruth]

LiT, why again did we all choose to come to this wretched world, the same as stupid Eve & lustful Adam?

For the same reason why Jesus chose to come here, to get a more intense and accelerated experience.

It does not make transgression, however, the right thing to do.

[Jesef]

That seems ridiculously contradictory: it’s accelerated (better for learning & progression) but wrong (worse than some other hypothetical/unprovable way).

[LoveIsTruth]

That seems ridiculously contradictory: it’s accelerated (better for learning & progression) but wrong (worse than some other hypothetical/unprovable way).

It is called balance. God compensates everything. The more you suffer in righteousness the sooner is your reward.

If you take your erroneous logic to its conclusion, then there is no sin at all, and as the Book of Mormon says: no sin means no righteousness, and therefore no happiness or misery, and if these things are not, then there is no God.

Christ suffered from the hands of wicked men. Will you make them righteous because Christ was rewarded for his sufferings?

And yes, it is better for accelerated learning & progression BECAUSE it is more wicked.

This does not make the wicked righteous, or the wrong right. And the wicked will be punished just the same, even more so.

So it all balances out.

[Jesef]

So we chose to sin, by Falling this far & coming here to this horribly wicked world (same choice as dumb Eve & lustful Adam), in order to progress in righteousness faster?

[LoveIsTruth]

So we chose to sin, by Falling this far & coming here to this horribly wicked world

Children born into this world are innocent, just like children born to abusive parents are innocent. But the sin is on the heads of the parents unless they repent.

in order to progress in righteousness faster?

Precisely. The greater the difficulty the greater the reward.

[LoveIsTruth]

Moses 5
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

As God lives, Eve, you could have had seed, and could have known good and evil without transgression, were you willing to listen to the Father. The only reason you have not done so was because you were deceived, because you were disobedient.

But as God has forgiven you, so also I forgive you.

But let no one pretend, together with the devil, that there was no other way for you, lest they make God a liar, for He gives "no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them." (1 Nephi 3:7)

And transgressing commandments is NOT accomplishing them.

Therefore if you had listened to the Father and resisted the temptation, your eyes would have been opened without transgression, and you could have had children without the fall, precisely as the Father commanded you, and as many other worlds have done. Then you and your posterity would have started a world in a terrestrial state, the same state that will prevail on the earth, but now only in the Millennium.

And unless you and Adam admit this truth, you will not be permitted to rule; for he who denies this, and most now do it unwittingly, make God a liar, and He will not stand for it.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

[LoveIsTruth]

To snap most of you from an eternal stupor, I will put it in different words:

Moses 5
11 And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient.

As God lives, Eve, you could have had seed, and could have known good and evil without transgression, were you willing to listen to the Father. The only reason you have not done so was because you were stupid.

But as God has forgiven you, so also I forgive you.