The True Lessons From the Fall of Adam and Eve

[LoveIsTruth]

Good logic. But I do take a lack of counterarguments as score in the favor of the evidence I presented.

[Finrock]

Good logic. But I do take a lack of counterarguments as score in the favor of the evidence I presented.

I don't say this with any malice, but the truth is that I don't think there is any point in arguing (to be clear I mean arguing through reason) this with you. I think you have the answer you want or which you are convinced is the truth. In other words, I don't think you can be persuaded to change your position because I feel like you have too much invested in your current position.

I'm asking questions to understand where you are coming from, to test in my own mind the soundness of your logic, and because I want to at least give your position due consideration. I'm not really interested in trying to counter your arguments because of what I said above.

I'm not saying that your position isn't reasonable, btw, I think it is and it may very well be the truth. I can't think of anything solid/immutable/certain that would deny your position. But, I do have my own understanding on these things and I also recognize that I'm very ignorant myself as to what the reality is. I don't have any direct or personal experience with Adam, Eve, "the Beginning", etc. All I have are texts that were written by someone else that may not mean what I think it means, that may have errors, but which I believe/hope is inspired.

-Finrock

[Jesef]

Is there a way to transplant to one of these better/Terrestrial worlds? Like second-thoughts, take-backs, mulligan kinda thing? There should be.

[LoveIsTruth]

Is there a way to transplant to one of these better/Terrestrial worlds? Like second-thoughts, take-backs, mulligan kinda thing? There should be.

Yeah, ask Enoch and his people, Melchizedek and his people, Moses, Alma the Younger, Nephi, John the Beloved, and thousands of others. And it is through Christ only.

[Jesef]

Have you asked them? Do you know how? Now THAT would be a fun topic. A practical guide to leaving this fallen/telestial world behind and moving to the terrestrial world! Go, LiT.

[LoveIsTruth]

Have you asked them? Do you know how? Now THAT would be a fun topic. A practical guide to leaving this fallen/telestial world behind and moving to the terrestrial world! Go, LiT.

Yeah, do a scripture search of all these, and see how they did it. Here is a start for you:

JST Gen. 14
26 Now Melchizedek was a man of faith, who wrought righteousness; and when a child he feared God, and stopped the mouths of lions, and quenched the violence of fire.
27 And thus, having been approved of God, he was ordained an high priest after the order of the covenant which God made with Enoch,
28 It being after the order of the son of God; which order came, not by man, nor the will of man; neither by father nor mother; neither by beginning of days nor end of years; but of God;
29 And it was delivered unto men by the calling of his own voice, according to his own will, unto as many as believed on his name.
30 For God having sworn unto Enoch and unto his seed with an oath by himself; that every one being ordained after this order and calling should have power, by faith, to break mountains, to divide the seas, to dry up waters, to turn them out of their course;
31 To put at defiance the armies of nations, to divide the earth, to break every band, to stand in the presence of God; to do all things according to his will, according to his command, subdue principalities and powers; and this by the will of the Son of God which was from before the foundation of the world.
32 And men having this faith, coming up unto this order of God, were translated and taken up into heaven.
33 And now, Melchizedek was a priest of this order; therefore he obtained peace in Salem, and was called the Prince of peace.
34 And his people wrought righteousness, and obtained heaven, and sought for the city of Enoch which God had before taken, separating it from the earth, having reserved it unto the latter days, or the end of the world;
35 And hath said, and sworn with an oath, that the heavens and the earth should come together; and the sons of God should be tried so as by fire.
36 And this Melchizedek, having thus established righteousness, was called the king of heaven by his people, or, in other words, the King of peace.

 Moses 7:27 
27 And Enoch beheld angels descending out of heaven, bearing testimony of the Father and Son; and the Holy Ghost fell on many, and they were caught up by the powers of heaven into Zion.

[Jesef]

Are there any modern examples of this? Do you know anyone who has achieved this? Can it be achieved individually or do you have to collect and build a city?

[ElizaRSkousen]

Are there any modern examples of this? Do you know anyone who has achieved this? Can it be achieved individually or do you have to collect and build a city?

The early saints were commanded to build a Zion but failed

[LoveIsTruth]

Are there any modern examples of this? Do you know anyone who has achieved this? Can it be achieved individually or do you have to collect and build a city?

It works both ways, judging from the scriptures I cited, individuals were caught up to the city.

And according to Joseph, the gift of translation (Plan A terrestrials) will be manifest in this last dispensation more than in any previous age of the world, and in the Millennium Plan A (terrestrial state) will be the norm.

[abijah]

Are there any modern examples of this? Do you know anyone who has achieved this? Can it be achieved individually or do you have to collect and build a city?

It works both ways, judging from the scriptures I cited, individuals were caught up to the city.

And according to Joseph, the gift of translation (Plan A terrestrials) will be manifest in this last dispensation more than in any previous age of the world, and in the Millennium Plan A (terrestrial state) will be the norm.

References? I agree, and would like to compare the original text.

[LoveIsTruth]

It works both ways, judging from the scriptures I cited, individuals were caught up to the city.

And according to Joseph, the gift of translation (Plan A terrestrials) will be manifest in this last dispensation more than in any previous age of the world, and in the Millennium Plan A (terrestrial state) will be the norm.

References? I agree, and would like to compare the original text.

Chapter Joseph Smith Jr. in Visions of Glory, John Pontius.

[Jesef]

So no modern examples is what you're saying. You don't know anyone personally that has achieve this. So it's all hypothetical.

[LoveIsTruth]

So no modern examples is what you're saying. You don't know anyone personally that has achieve this. So it's all hypothetical.

Yes. Yes. And No.

If I have not been to China personally it's existence is not "hypothetical."

I hope you understand that.

[LoveIsTruth]

The day will come when Adam will apologize to his posterity for the fall, and will acknowledge publicly that God indeed had a better way for him, had he, Adam, listened to the Father rather than the devil.

Unless Adam does this, he will not be able to rule.

[Jesef]

So no modern examples is what you're saying. You don't know anyone personally that has achieve this. So it's all hypothetical.

Yes. Yes. And No.

If I have not been to China personally it's existence is not "hypothetical."

I hope you understand that.

You haven't presented any modern example, so No. You haven't described anyone you know personally and have witnessed them "ascend" to the Terrestrial, so No. Hypothetical means you've just read about it, maybe gotten some kind of personal spiritual assurance, but do not have personal experiential or "witness"-class KNOWLEDGE on the subject. So my points stand unless you provide information otherwise. Once again, you've taken scripture as ABSOLUTE TRUTH, when in reality it is just a written transmission at best. It's not proof, it's an unverified account. It's a story unless you gain personal experiential knowledge to confirm it with POWER. That is the truth.

[LoveIsTruth]

So existence of China is "hypothetical" to you?

[Jesef]

So existence of China is "hypothetical" to you?

That's your logic response & argument, seriously? That's ridiculously different. Answer the questions. You said Yes to a modern example & to a personal example. Don't appeal to China. Answer the questions with sufficient details to back up the answers.

[LoveIsTruth]

I said Yes (as in correct/agreement) to your first 2 statements, and No to your last statement.

[abijah]

LiT - I’m wondering what your thoughts are on the original purpose of Elohim & Jehovah’s second visit?

“We shall visit you again, and give you further instructions”

What do you reckon these “further instructions” were?

[LoveIsTruth]

LiT - I’m wondering what your thoughts are on the original purpose of Elohim & Jehovah’s second visit?

“We shall visit you again, and give you further instructions”

What do you reckon these “further instructions” were?

Good question. It is clearly to show Adam that the Father did not forsake him. That if he has any questions he can ask the Father. That he dose not need to get his direction from Satan or snakes. He just needs to trust the Father more than strangers.

That was Adam's test that he failed.

And the Father, obviously was coming back, after Adam has proven himself true, to make him garments of linen instead of skins of beasts (no one would be killed for his wardrobe). Adam would not have to make a stupid green apron, a sign of the fall, etc. So in non-fallen worlds endowment does not have green aprons.

The Father would come back to teach Adam all he needed to know to progress without any fall or transgression required. The Father was coming back to unfold the details of plan A, terrestrial glory, had Adam proven faithful in the garden.

But Adam failed, and thus was settled with lesser plan, plan B, lone and dreary world, because he would not listen to or trust the Father enough.

As I said, had Enoch or Melchizedek or John the Beloved been in the garden instead of Adam, it might have gone the other way. We might have had Plan A right off the bat.

But Adam, like Paul, and many others, started poorly, but ended great. Hence he became a prince over his posterity. But this will require him to apologize to his posterity for the fall, and to acknowledge publicly that the Father indeed had a better plan for him, had Adam listened to the Father instead of the devil, snake, or even his wife.

And unless Adam does this, he will not be able to rule.

So he will do it. He will apologize, and he will acknowledge that the Father was right, and that there indeed was a better plan for him, had he listened to the Father at the time.

[abijah]

Good question. It is clearly to show Adam that the Father did not forsake him. That if he has any questions he can ask the Father. That he dose not need to get his direction from Satan or snakes. He just needs to trust the Father more than strangers.

That was Adam's test that he failed.

And the Father, obviously was coming back, after Adam has proven himself true, to make him garments of linen instead of skins of beasts (no one would be killed for his wardrobe). Adam would not have to make a stupid green apron, a sign of the fall, etc. So in non-fallen worlds endowment does not have green aprons.

The Father would come back to teach Adam all he needed to know to progress without any fall or transgression required. The Father was coming back to unfold the details of plan A, terrestrial glory, had Adam proven faithful in the garden.

But Adam failed, and thus was settled with lesser plan, plan B, lone and dreary world, because he would not listen to or trust the Father enough.

As I said, had Enoch or Melchizedek or John the Beloved been in the garden instead of Adam, it might have gone the other way. We might have had Plan A right off the bat.

But Adam, like Paul, and many others, started poorly, but ended great. Hence he became a prince over his posterity. But this will require him to apologize to his posterity for the fall, and to acknowledge publicly that the Father indeed had a better plan for him, had Adam listened to the Father instead of the devil, snake, or even his wife.

And unless Adam does this, he will not be able to rule.

So he will do it. He will apologize, and he will acknowledge that the Father was right, and that there indeed was a better plan for him, had he listened to the Father at the time.

Well it's obvious that Elohim & Jehovah were not planning on Adam & Eve to fall (hence the "Adam? Where art thou?").

So the simple question to be asked: What were They expecting? Was this visit to simply be a drop-in, to see how things were going? Or was there a purpose? I contend these Gods don't make idle visits.

What was that purpose? Haven't decided yet, as I'm still learning. But I thought I'd pose the question here in the meantime, as your posts are often very thought-provoking. Thanks for the response.

[LoveIsTruth]

You are welcome!

And I agree, fall was not what God commanded Adam and Eve. It is the opposite of what He commanded.

And most certainly, God had a better way for Adam and Eve, had they listened to Him more than to the devil.

Good post. Thanks.

[LoveIsTruth]

I wish to say a few more words about Adam.

Yes he started poorly in the garden by placing a severe curse upon the earth and his posterity because of his disobedience. Yet later he repented of his transgressions and turned fully to the Lord.
Therefore he was made a prince over his posterity.

In fact, he is the same angel who will declare in the name of the Lord the reversal of the curse that he caused, and return of the Earth to Terrestrial/paradisiacal glory:

D&C 88
110 … the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.
…
112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel,

Rev. 10
1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
2 … and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth,
…
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

And to add more to the poetic justice, Adam, who was at first deceived and fallen by the power of the devil, in the end will be the one who will vanquish the devil from the earth through the power of Christ:

D&C 88
110 … the seventh angel shall sound his trump; and he shall stand forth upon the land and upon the sea, and swear in the name of him who sitteth upon the throne, that there shall be time no longer; and Satan shall be bound, that old serpent, who is called the devil, and shall not be loosed for the space of a thousand years.
111 And then he shall be loosed for a little season, that he may gather together his armies.
112 And Michael, the seventh angel, even the archangel, shall gather together his armies, even the hosts of heaven.
113 And the devil shall gather together his armies; even the hosts of hell, and shall come up to battle against Michael and his armies.
114 And then cometh the battle of the great God; and the devil and his armies shall be cast away into their own place, that they shall not have power over the saints any more at all.
115 For Michael shall fight their battles, and shall overcome him who seeketh the throne of him who sitteth upon the throne, even the Lamb.
116 This is the glory of God, and the sanctified; and they shall not any more see death.

So, like many in the scriptures, Adam started poorly but ended great, because he embraced Christ and the Father fully.

And that is the Good News.

But unless we acknowledge the facts of his fall, we cannot appreciate the greatness and the mercies of the Lord!

And Yes, Adam will apologize to his posterity for the fall, or he will not be permitted to rule.

Therefore he will do it, and will silence forever all those who erroneously taught that he, Adam, did the right thing in the garden, because he will publicly admit that God indeed had a better plan for him, had he, Adam, listened to God from the beginning.

But through Christ all these things will be set right, and God will be glorified in his children, and in the end, no one will have a reason to boast, except in Christ and in the Father.

[LoveIsTruth]

Super short version:

Adam and Eve made a deadly mistake in the garden of Eden in partaking the forbidden fruit. That there was no other way to open their eyes is a doctrine of the devil. Resisting temptations opens eyes to know good and evil far better than yielding to them, and has no negative consequences.

That was the way the Father commanded Adam and Eve to open their eyes without transgression, in which case they would have had children without the fall, and the earth (like many other worlds) would have started in a millennial state right off the bat.

He who has ears to hear let him hear.

[nightlight]

Super short version:

Adam and Eve made a deadly mistake in the garden of Eden in partaking the forbidden fruit. That there was no other way to open their eyes is a doctrine of the devil. Resisting temptations opens eyes to know good and evil far better than yielding to them, and has no negative consequences.

That was the way the Father commanded Adam and Eve to open their eyes without transgression, in which case they would have had children without the fall, and the earth (like many other worlds) would have started in a millennial state right off the bat.

He who has ears to hear let him hear.

For Adam to know good from evil he needed to transgress and lose his innocence...in order for Jehovah's role of Savior of human race to commence. If he did not fall...you would not be.
Only Christ was called to walk without sin...not Adam

You claim Adam should have done better???? You claim that there was a better way???
Lol lol lol you claim we all wait for some grand apology from Adam for his transgression in Eden????

It's you who will need to apologize.

Don't concern yourself with what other men should or should not have done.... Worry about your own stains.

Read the scriptures ... And honor your Father

22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.

23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

24 But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things.

25 Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.