LDS Freedom Forum

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 3rd, 2017, 8:57 pm Your OP has frustrated the meaning behind the scriptures you've quoted. (Moses 4:17, 5:11 and 2 Ne 2:22-25)

The following are many supporting statements by those in authority within the church that have interpreted these scriptures correctly – from the doctrines of the gospel student manual chapter 8: The Fall:

“He [Adam] had knowledge, of course. He could speak. He could converse. There were many things he could be taught and was taught; but under the conditions in which he was living at that time it was impossible for him to visualize or understand the power of good and evil. He did not know what pain was. He did not know what sorrow was; and a thousand other things that have come to us in this life that Adam did not know in the Garden of Eden and could not understand and would not have known had he remained there” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:107–8).
“I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17.]
“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

“The devil in tempting Eve told a truth when he said unto her that when she should eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they should become as Gods. He told the truth in telling that, but he accompanied it with a lie as he always does. He never tells the complete truth. He said that they should not die. The Father had said that they should die. The devil had to tell a lie in order to accomplish his purposes; but there was some truth in his statement. Their eyes were opened. They had a knowledge of good and evil just as the Gods have” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:16).

“Adam and Eve were chosen to come here as the primal parents of humanity. And they were placed in the Garden of Eden where there was no death and we read in the scriptures that they could have lived in that Garden forever, but not under the most favorable circumstances. For there, although they were in the presence of God, they were deprived of certain knowledge and understanding in a condition where they could not understand clearly things that were necessary for them to know. Therefore, it became essential to their salvation and to ours that their nature should be changed. The only way it could be changed was by the violation of the law under which they were at that time. Mortality could not come without violation of that law and mortality was essential, a step towards our exaltation. Therefore, Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, forbidden in a rather peculiar manner for it is the only place in all the history where we read that the Lord forbade something and yet said, ‘Nevertheless thou mayest choose for thyself.’ He never said that of any sin. I do not look upon Adam’s fall as a sin, although it was a transgression of the law. It had to be. And Adam came under a different law. The temporal law. And he became subject to death. The partaking of that fruit created blood in his body and that blood became the life-giving influence of mortality” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Atonement of Jesus Christ, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [25 Jan. 1955], 2).

I'm posting this for the sake of anyone else who might read this because I get the feeling you already know this and are simply posting for the joy of argument. But just in case I'm wrong here is a quote that I hope you take to heart.

"Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." - Jalaluddin Rumi

D&C 129:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.”
(Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.”
(The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:40 am
So, again what is an angel? We need only to turn to D&C 129 for that answer.

D&C 129:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones

There are two kinds of beings in heaven who are called angels: those who are spirits and those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Angels who are spirits have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone, or they are spirits who have once had a mortal body and are awaiting resurrection. Angels who have bodies of flesh and bone have either been resurrected from the dead or translated.

Guide to the Scriptures: Angles

inho wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:40 am
So, again what is an angel? We need only to turn to D&C 129 for that answer.

D&C 129:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones

This is the problem. The word 'angel' is not used consistentaly in the scriptures to refer resurrected personages only. For example, when angel Gabriel (who is Noah) visited Mary, was he resurrected?

There are two kinds of beings in heaven who are called angels: those who are spirits and those who have bodies of flesh and bone. Angels who are spirits have not yet obtained a body of flesh and bone, or they are spirits who have once had a mortal body and are awaiting resurrection. Angels who have bodies of flesh and bone have either been resurrected from the dead or translated.

Guide to the Scriptures: Angles

Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into
the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He
helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about
whom holy men have written and spoken − HE is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom
WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non−professing, must hear it, and will
know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of
the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for
man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, and thorn, the brier, and
the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the
forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. When
the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not
begotten by the Holy Ghost. And who is the Father? He is the first of the human family; and when he took a
tabernacle, it was begotten by his Father in heaven, after the same manner as the tabernacles of Cain, Abel,
and the rest of the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve; from the fruits of the earth, the first earthly
tabernacles were originated by the Father, and so on in succession. I could tell you much more about this; but
were I to tell you the whole truth, blasphemy would be nothing to it, in the estimation of the superstitious and
over−righteous of mankind. However, I have told you the truth as far as I have gone. I have heard men preach
upon the divinity of Christ, and exhaust all the wisdom they possessed. All Scripturalists, and approved
theologians who were considered exemplary for piety and education, have undertaken to expound on this
subject, in every age of the Christian era; and after they have done all, they are obliged to conclude by
exclaiming "great is the mystery of godliness," and tell nothing.
JD 1:51, Brigham Young, April 9, 1852

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:40 am Do we all agree that Michael and Adam is the same person? Do not the scriptures Say so?
Do we all agree that Michael is called the archangel? Do not the scriptures Say so?
At the time of the Garden, long before the Atonement, Christ had a spirit body, agreed? Do not the scriptures Say so?
So, which is superior and which is subordinate of a personage of a spirit body or an archangel?

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:40 am What is an archangel? the "arch" prefix means prototype, best example, head or top.
So whatever an angel is, Michael is the best or head one or the head angel.
So, again what is an angel? We need only to turn to D&C 129 for that answer.

D&C 129:1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones

So there it is, Adam/ Michael is the head resurrected personage, having bodies of flesh and bones.
And Christ is a personage of spirit. So who is superior?
Is a spirit body superior to a resurrected body of flesh and bones, No, it is not.
A resurrected body of flesh and bones is much superior to a spirit body.
So, before the Atonement and Resurrection Adam/Michael is superior
to Christ. After the Atonement and Resurrection, they are same, except
Adam is Christs Father, so Christ will always be subordinate to Adam.

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:40 am

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.”
(Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:40 am And 84 times in the bible, Christ says he is the son of Adam.

“While it is in all probability true that the gospels were originally written in Aramaic, it is even more certain that the New Testament is based upon an Old Testament-Hebraic culture and religion. This being the case, it is most significant that in the Hebrew language the word for man is Adam, hence in the some odd 84 passages in the gospels when Jesus referred to himself as the Son of Man, it can be taken quite literally as a claim on Jesus' part that he was the son of Adam.”
(The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Volume 3, pg. 327)

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:40 am So there you have it, from the scriptures and the mouth of a prophet, what say ye now?

18 He said unto him, I am a prophet also as thou art; and an angel spake unto me by the word of the LORD, saying, Bring him back with thee into thine house, that he may eat bread and drink water. But he lied unto him.
19 So he went back with him, and did eat bread in his house, and drank water.
20 ¶ And it came to pass, as they sat at the table, that the word of the LORD came unto the prophet that brought him back:
21 And he cried unto the man of God that came from Judah, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Forasmuch as thou hast disobeyed the mouth of the LORD, and hast not kept the commandment which the LORD thy God commanded thee,
22 But camest back, and hast eaten bread and drunk water in the place, of the which the LORD did say to thee, Eat no bread, and drink no water; thy carcase shall not come unto the sepulchre of thy fathers.
23 ¶ And it came to pass, after he had eaten bread, and after he had drunk, that he saddled for him the @#$, to wit, for the prophet whom he had brought back.
24 And when he was gone, a lion met him by the way, and slew him: and his carcase was cast in the way, and the @#$ stood by it, the lion also stood by the carcase.
(1 Kings. 13:18-24 )

“Adam is Michael the Archangel and he is the Father of Jesus Christ and is our God and Joseph taught this principle.”
(Brigham Young, December 16, 1867, Wilford Woodruff Journal)

LoveIsTruth wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 1:48 am

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 3rd, 2017, 8:57 pm Your OP has frustrated the meaning behind the scriptures you've quoted. (Moses 4:17, 5:11 and 2 Ne 2:22-25)

The following are many supporting statements by those in authority within the church that have interpreted these scriptures correctly – from the doctrines of the gospel student manual chapter 8: The Fall:

“He [Adam] had knowledge, of course. He could speak. He could converse. There were many things he could be taught and was taught; but under the conditions in which he was living at that time it was impossible for him to visualize or understand the power of good and evil. He did not know what pain was. He did not know what sorrow was; and a thousand other things that have come to us in this life that Adam did not know in the Garden of Eden and could not understand and would not have known had he remained there” (Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:107–8).
“I’m very, very grateful that in the Book of Mormon, and I think elsewhere in our scriptures, the fall of Adam has not been called a sin. It wasn’t a sin. … What did Adam do? The very thing the Lord wanted him to do; and I hate to hear anybody call it a sin, for it wasn’t a sin. Did Adam sin when he partook of the forbidden fruit? I say to you, no, he did not! Now, let me refer to what was written in the book of Moses in regard to the command God gave to Adam. [Moses 3:16–17.]
“Now this is the way I interpret that: The Lord said to Adam, here is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If you want to stay here, then you cannot eat of that fruit. If you want to stay here, then I forbid you to eat it. But you may act for yourself, and you may eat of it if you want to. And if you eat it, you will die.

“I see a great difference between transgressing the law and committing a sin” (Joseph Fielding Smith, “Fall—Atonement—Resurrection—Sacrament,” in Charge to Religious Educators, 124).

“The devil in tempting Eve told a truth when he said unto her that when she should eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil they should become as Gods. He told the truth in telling that, but he accompanied it with a lie as he always does. He never tells the complete truth. He said that they should not die. The Father had said that they should die. The devil had to tell a lie in order to accomplish his purposes; but there was some truth in his statement. Their eyes were opened. They had a knowledge of good and evil just as the Gods have” (George Q. Cannon, Gospel Truth, 1:16).

“Adam and Eve were chosen to come here as the primal parents of humanity. And they were placed in the Garden of Eden where there was no death and we read in the scriptures that they could have lived in that Garden forever, but not under the most favorable circumstances. For there, although they were in the presence of God, they were deprived of certain knowledge and understanding in a condition where they could not understand clearly things that were necessary for them to know. Therefore, it became essential to their salvation and to ours that their nature should be changed. The only way it could be changed was by the violation of the law under which they were at that time. Mortality could not come without violation of that law and mortality was essential, a step towards our exaltation. Therefore, Adam partook of the forbidden fruit, forbidden in a rather peculiar manner for it is the only place in all the history where we read that the Lord forbade something and yet said, ‘Nevertheless thou mayest choose for thyself.’ He never said that of any sin. I do not look upon Adam’s fall as a sin, although it was a transgression of the law. It had to be. And Adam came under a different law. The temporal law. And he became subject to death. The partaking of that fruit created blood in his body and that blood became the life-giving influence of mortality” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Atonement of Jesus Christ, Brigham Young University Speeches of the Year [25 Jan. 1955], 2).

I'm posting this for the sake of anyone else who might read this because I get the feeling you already know this and are simply posting for the joy of argument. But just in case I'm wrong here is a quote that I hope you take to heart.

"Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." - Jalaluddin Rumi

More of the same lunacy, which I addressed in great detail, point by point in the OP!

Joseph Fielding Smith was wrong on this, just like he was wrong that man would never set foot on the Moon, and just like Brigham Young who said Adam was the Father of Jesus. Or like Joseph who thought the earth was shaped like a dumbbell, etc.

We have already established that prophets make mistakes when they give their opinions that contradict the words of God. It should not be a surprise. Joseph Smith warned about this fact. Why is it so hard to believe? A prophet told you this. Believe him at least!

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 pm So you want me to NOT believe what the prophets have said, even Joseph Smith, but you want me to believe Joseph Smith -- hmm.

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 pm Look, I didn't just grab a bunch of obscure quotes from the prophets and post them. These are taught from the Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual.

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 pm They are FUNDAMENTAL teachings and backed by the authorities of the Church of Jesus Christ of this dispensation.

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 pm To say that it is lunacy is to reject the modern day teachings of the church. Yes the prophets can make mistakes such as Joseph allegedly saying that the earth was shaped like a dumbbell, but what does that have to do with revelation and prophecy?

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 pm That was his opinion and there is a difference.

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 pm You want to pick and choose what teachings to believe and which prophets quotes are true or false

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 pm while discarding what's not convenient to your argument by dismissing it as lunacy. What you are proposing in your OP does not match with legitimate gospel teachings.

andrewkeola wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 2:55 pm It's fine if that's what you believe, but don't put your square peg in the round hole and say it fits.

LoveIsTruth wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 11:43 am Again, you are making an argument from authority.

It is fundamentally wrong to do so.

Joseph Smith believed that the earth was shaped like a dumbbell (or like Micky mouse ears) with two spheres of land protruding into space at the poles. He was wrong. Joseph said he was liable to be wrong. He said so, but you do not believe even him.

Spencer W. Kimball said that Adam being the direct Father of Jesus and of all the spirits of men on earth was false doctrine, but you do not believe even him, and he was a prophet too.

God in Doctrine and Covenants says a prophet COULD be wrong, and makes provisions for it. (D&C 107:81-84) But you do not believe even God Himself.

God spoke to Adam and called him to repentance and to baptism, in the name of His, [God's, not Adam's] Only Begotten Son, by whom Adam was to be redeemed. But you do not believe even Him! Nor do you believe the scriptures which incontrovertibly teach that Jesus is Jehovah and is greater than fallen Adam. But you do not believe the scriptures either.

You contradict yourself, because you said you believe the prophets, yet deny what they said. They said they could be wrong. Joseph said he could be wrong in his personal opinions. And Spencer W. Kimball said Brigham was wrong. But you believe none of them.

You are blind. You reject reason and the very words of God, including those in canonized scriptures, because of names. But it is upon your head.

This is what happens to people when they trust a prophet's opinion more than the words of God himself: (1 Kings. 13:18-24). Learn from this.

He who has ears to hear, let him hear.

I am done with you.

Good luck, my friend.

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 6:07 pm Joseph Smith taught it.
Brigham Young taught it.
He said that he got it from Joseph and from God.
John Taylor Taught it.
George Q Cannon Taught it
actually, all the 12 and the First Pres. taught it except 1.
He was nearly excommunicated for teaching against it.
But he repented and he taught it.

It can not be easily (nor correctly) dismissed as 'opinion' since all 15 prophets taught it.
They taught it in public speeches.
They taught it at General Conference.
They taught it in the Deseret News.
The First Pres. approved and paid for the compilation and publication of The Journal of Discourses, a major source of the Doctrine.

It is a bit foolish to dismiss it out of hand.

freedomforall wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 10:49 pm

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 6:07 pm Joseph Smith taught it.
Brigham Young taught it.
He said that he got it from Joseph and from God.
John Taylor Taught it.
George Q Cannon Taught it
actually, all the 12 and the First Pres. taught it except 1.
He was nearly excommunicated for teaching against it.
But he repented and he taught it.

It can not be easily (nor correctly) dismissed as 'opinion' since all 15 prophets taught it.
They taught it in public speeches.
They taught it at General Conference.
They taught it in the Deseret News.
The First Pres. approved and paid for the compilation and publication of The Journal of Discourses, a major source of the Doctrine.

It is a bit foolish to dismiss it out of hand.

What is even more foolish is to teach false doctrine as if it was something of value.

Beware of false teachers

2 Peter 2:1
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Who privily shall bring in damnable heresies...does this ring any bells?

LoveIsTruth wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 3:36 pmTherefore Adam and Eve could have had their eyes opened and have posterity without the fall, had they resisted the temptation.

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 10:56 pm And it is worst than foolish to say or imply that the writings of the prophets of God are false teachings.
Anyone who teaches against the teachings of the prophets should do as Orson Pratt did, stop it and repent.

freedomforall wrote: ↑September 7th, 2017, 12:17 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 10:56 pm

freedomforall wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 10:49 pm

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 6:07 pm Joseph Smith taught it.
Brigham Young taught it.
He said that he got it from Joseph and from God.
John Taylor Taught it.
George Q Cannon Taught it
actually, all the 12 and the First Pres. taught it except 1.
He was nearly excommunicated for teaching against it.
But he repented and he taught it.

It can not be easily (nor correctly) dismissed as 'opinion' since all 15 prophets taught it.
They taught it in public speeches.
They taught it at General Conference.
They taught it in the Deseret News.
The First Pres. approved and paid for the compilation and publication of The Journal of Discourses, a major source of the Doctrine.

It is a bit foolish to dismiss it out of hand.

What is even more foolish is to teach false doctrine as if it was something of value.

Beware of false teachers

2 Peter 2:1
1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Who privily shall bring in damnable heresies...does this ring any bells?

And it is worst than foolish to say or imply that the writings of the prophets of God are false teachings.
Anyone who teaches against the teachings of the prophets should do as Orson Pratt did, stop it and repent.

And we are supposed to believe that which comes from a book where the author is so afraid that he does not reveal himself as the author? Such as Teachings of the Doctrine of Eternal Lives? And you're one of its sponsors having no name either? Clever...real clever.

Have you presented this nonsense to your bishop yet? How about your Stake President? How about the Prophet?
Or is it must easier to preach on a forum and not feel threatened with church discipline?

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 6:07 pm Joseph Smith taught it.
Brigham Young taught it.
He said that he got it from Joseph and from God.
John Taylor Taught it.
George Q Cannon Taught it
actually, all the 12 and the First Pres. taught it except 1.
He was nearly excommunicated for teaching against it.
But he repented and he taught it.

It can not be easily (nor correctly) dismissed as 'opinion' since all 15 prophets taught it.
They taught it in public speeches.
They taught it at General Conference.
They taught it in the Deseret News.
The First Pres. approved and paid for the compilation and publication of The Journal of Discourses, a major source of the Doctrine.

It is a bit foolish to dismiss it out of hand.

freedomforall wrote: ↑September 7th, 2017, 12:03 am

LoveIsTruth wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 3:36 pmTherefore Adam and Eve could have had their eyes opened and have posterity without the fall, had they resisted the temptation.

Let's see if scripture agrees with this assertion.

BD Fall of Adam and Eve

The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2–4 and Moses 3–4. The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

Moses 4
11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
12 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

After leaving the garden, this is when children were brought forth. Had they not fallen there would have been no children.

2 Nephi 2:19,20,22,23
19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

Moses 5:2
2 And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth.

LoveIsTruth wrote: ↑September 7th, 2017, 12:47 am

Hidingbehindmyhandle wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 6:07 pm Joseph Smith taught it.
Brigham Young taught it.
He said that he got it from Joseph and from God.
John Taylor Taught it.
George Q Cannon Taught it
actually, all the 12 and the First Pres. taught it except 1.
He was nearly excommunicated for teaching against it.
But he repented and he taught it.

It can not be easily (nor correctly) dismissed as 'opinion' since all 15 prophets taught it.
They taught it in public speeches.
They taught it at General Conference.
They taught it in the Deseret News.
The First Pres. approved and paid for the compilation and publication of The Journal of Discourses, a major source of the Doctrine.

It is a bit foolish to dismiss it out of hand.

Yeah, they taught it, but it was never made part of official church doctrine, neither in canon nor in in endowment. Why? Because it was wrong.

And as for Orson. He nearly stop speaking publicly against it, he never accepted it.

Spencer W. Kimball, though did speak publicly against it, and called it false doctrine in a general conference.

Adam did not redeem Christ, but Christ redeemed Adam. So who is greater then?

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22)

Jehovah (Christ) sends Michael (Adam) on errands, not the other way around. And Michael reports to Jehovah, in the temple, not the other way around.

It is obvious.

in D&C 129 we are told that there are only two types of beings that reside in heaven.

1 There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely: Angels, who are resurrected personages, having bodies of flesh and bones—
2 For instance, Jesus said: Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
3 Secondly: the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory.

Angels, those with resurrected bodies of flesh and bones (no blood)
And the spirits of just men made perfect See D&C 76:69 above and D&C 93:38, they are redeemed spirits having perfected spirit bodies.

Armed with this, Michael the Archangel has a resurrected body of flesh and bones. And he is the head angel. (arch prefix - best, top, head)
Christ on the other hand, is a just man made perfect, he has a spirit body.
Michael, with a a resurrected body of flesh and bones and the head angel is superior to Christ, a just man made perfect with a spirit body

Brigham Young in the Desert News, June 18, 1873 How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine, which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me-namely that Adam is our father and God

LoveIsTruth wrote: ↑September 7th, 2017, 1:03 am

freedomforall wrote: ↑September 7th, 2017, 12:03 am

LoveIsTruth wrote: ↑September 6th, 2017, 3:36 pmTherefore Adam and Eve could have had their eyes opened and have posterity without the fall, had they resisted the temptation.

Let's see if scripture agrees with this assertion.

BD Fall of Adam and Eve

The process by which mankind became mortal on this earth. The event is recorded in Gen. 2–4 and Moses 3–4. The Fall of Adam and Eve is one of the most important occurrences in the history of man. Before the Fall, there were no sin, no death, and no children. With the eating of the “forbidden fruit,” Adam and Eve became mortal, sin entered, and death became a part of life. Adam became the “first flesh” upon the earth (Moses 3:7), meaning that he and Eve were the first to become mortal. After Adam fell, the whole creation fell and became mortal. Adam’s Fall brought both physical and spiritual death into the world upon all mankind (Hel. 14:16–17).

Moses 4
11 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
12 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it became pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make her wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and also gave unto her husband with her, and he did eat.

After leaving the garden, this is when children were brought forth. Had they not fallen there would have been no children.

2 Nephi 2:19,20,22,23
19 And after Adam and Eve had partaken of the forbidden fruit they were driven out of the garden of Eden, to till the earth.
20 And they have brought forth children; yea, even the family of all the earth.
22 And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end.
23 And they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin.

Moses 5:2
2 And Adam knew his wife, and she bare unto him sons and daughters, and they began to multiply and to replenish the earth.

I addressed this in the OP, point by point. "WOULD not" is not the same as "COULD not." They would not because they were disobedient and were deceived, and WOULD not have children without the fall. WOULD means choice.

It certainly does not mean they COULD not, or God would be a liar, who said whatsoever he commands, men CAN do it.

Read the OP. I go into great detail there.

Thanks.