LDS Freedom Forum

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote: So, I have given you now 3 or more examples of active priesthood leaders who were acting in positions of authority that met the criteria given in verse 37. This then shows that these verses actually apply to the active priesthood holders who are serving in positions of authority within the church, not non-members or less active members. The idea that a less active member is given a position of authority and IMMEDIATELY begins to exercise unrighteous dominion is kind of silly. Why would they be given authority when they are less active?

Peace,
Amonhi

A few exceptions is of no concern to me and it is also your judgement on them which I do not accept.

2 of them were judged and found guilty by the church, not me. Since the church excommunicated the 2 apostles after 8 & 18 years of hiding their sexual affairs from the prophet and their fellow apostles, I think that during the 8 and 18 years those apostles met the criteria given in those verses. Not my judgement, but the churches... You don't have to accept that either.

Peace,
Amonhi

Boo hoo - yes just like Judas fell so did King David - it does not fill your mantra that the majority of the active PH holders are cursed Section 121.
We still use the scriptures that King David wrote prior to his fall, he did not lead the people astray but fell into personal apostasy. Likewise I have been called to many positions and have called many people to positions in the church as well. Very really have I see that people have issues described in section 121.. I have never seen it in a stake presidency or bishopric, neither in the Quorum of 12 Apostles or the first presidency.
Sure you can document a few examples so what it does not match your mantra that the majority of active PH holders have gone astray.
The only people who say that are fault finders and when they cant find any fault they invent them.

freedomforall wrote:

Isaiah wrote:If a prophet prophesy, then ANYONE that's a servant of the Lord can be a prophet. Only if and when the Holy Ghost falls on them, and not before. See Spiritual Gifts below.

The Acts of the Apostles and (Joel 2:28-32)
Chapter 2

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/holy- ... f?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pay attention to these verses...they tell us that NOT all servants can prophesy, rather, only a select few.

D&C 46
10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
15 And again, to some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know the differences of administration, as it will be pleasing unto the same Lord, according as the Lord will, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men.
16 And again, it is given by the Holy Ghost to some to know the diversities of operations, whether they be of God, that the manifestations of the Spirit may be given to every man to profit withal.
17 And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom.
18 To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.
21 And again, to some is given the working of miracles;
22 And to others it is given to prophesy;
23 And to others the discerning of spirits.
24 And again, it is given to some to speak with tongues;
25 And to another is given the interpretation of tongues.
26 And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God.
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit;

"I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:"

I will quote a scripture that tells us plainly, without equivocation, without leaving us with something that must be assumed to arrive at our conclusion, and leaving nothing to our own interpretation, this scripture tells us precisely what it is that we must follow. I don't know if anyone on this thread has quoted this scripture yet but if so it can't hurt to quote it again:

D&C 45:

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived -- verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.
59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.

This says we must take the Holy Spirit for a guide, not a man or men (arm of flesh), not an organization, but the Holy Spirit. Can anything be clearer than that? Can anyone point to scripture that in such unmistakeable words says we must "follow the prophet", or we must "take the prophet for a guide" or we will not receive the truth, and we will be deceived. These verses, in fact, tell us that if we take anything other than the Holy Spirit for a guide we WILL NOT receive the truth, and we WILL be deceived. So please find me scripture that says in these words "follow the prophet". I don't mean something that lets someone loosely overlay his or her own paradigm onto scripture; such as "Jacob followed Nephi's command THEREFORE we must always follow the prophet without question".

I have quoted something that Amonhi said above because it fits with the scripture that I quoted and it is a perfect explanation of why it is so critical that we take the Holy Spirit and nothing else for a guide. I hope he doesn't mind.

Amonhi wrote: ...
If you do not have oil in your lamp enough to guide yourself without relying on the light of others, then you will not be welcomed when the groom comes. You will not have a place in the Celestial Kingdom with the Gods. If you cannot hear the voice of the Lord and trust him, then you will not be accepted by him as his sheep and his church that worship in his name. It doesn't matter if you are baptized into the LDS Church or how well you follow the prophets and leaders of the church. What matters is how well you follow the spirit... How well you follow HIS Voice and His words... How well you " do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall commands". If you place a man, any man even a prophet, above the spirit, and give that man more influence in your life than you give the spirit, then you have placed a man above God voice and God's voice is God's will.
...

Joseph Smith wrote:Common answers to sundry questions:
"Fifth--"Do you believe Joseph Smith, Jun., to be a Prophet?"
"Yes, and every other man who has the testimony of Jesus. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.--Revelation, 19:10th verse." - Section Three 1838-39, p.119

"Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this." - Section Four 1839-42, p.160

“If any person should ask me if I were a prophet, I should not deny it, as that would give me the lie; for, according to John, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; therefore, if I profess to be a witness or teacher, and have not the spirit of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus, I must be a false witness; but if I be a true teacher and witness, I must possess the spirit of prophecy, and that constitutes a prophet; and any man who says he is a teacher or a preacher of righteousness, and denies the spirit of prophecy, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; and by this key false teachers and impostors may be detected.” (Dec. 30, 1842.) DHC 5:215-216. - TPJS Section Five 1842-43, p.269

(Think of Missionaries)"Faith comes by hearing the word of god, through the testimony of the servants of God; that testimony is always attended by the Spirit of prophecy and revelation." - Section Three 1838-39, p.148

Joseph Smith said that anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ has the spirit of prophecy. He learned that from Revelations 19:10 which says,

“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” - Rev. 19:10

Here is a book of Mormon verse that supports this definition...

Here is a Book of Mormon quote making a similar connection:
“And Alma went and began to declare the word of God unto the church which was established in the valley of Gideon, according to the revelation of the truth of the word which had been spoken by his fathers, and according to the spirit of prophecy which was in him, according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who should come to redeem his people from their sins, and the holy order by which he was called. And thus it is written. Amen.” - Alma 6:8

freedomforall wrote: Pay attention to these verses...they tell us that NOT all servants can prophesy, rather, only a select few.

D&C 46
10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
...
22 And to others it is given to prophesy;
...
28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit;

Hey Freedomforall! You may have proved Joseph Smith wrong on all these quotes! Good job, your starting to think like an independent seeker of truth without bias toward the Prophet Joseph Smith! ;) :ymhug:

Peace,
Amonhi

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:

Isaiah wrote:If a prophet prophesy, then ANYONE that's a servant of the Lord can be a prophet.

The Acts of the Apostles and (Joel 2:28-32)
Chapter 2

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy:

Yes, that is a prophecy about our day and those who realize that they are prophets and if you looked close you will also see that there will be prophetesses too!

Oh, and just to put in the plug, these prophets and prophetesses will be speaking in the name of the Lord by His spirit and the righteous will obey them as if the Lord personally spoke just as much as we should obey when the President of the Church speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost.

One prophet speaking by the spirit has equal power and authority from God to do so as another prophet speaking by the spirit. Both are servants of the Lord and both speak for Him equally when they speak by the spirit.

Peace,
Amonhi

Prophesying about future events - is not the same as begin the Lords mouthpiece and commanding the members of the church and directing the church on earth.
The scripture does not say they speak in the name of the Lord or that they need to be obeyed. Yes many have seen visions of the future and had NDE, but the accounts that I have read they all say they are not speaking for the Lord or that they have authority over the church and the members should not obey them. You are desperately plucking straws, and only see what you want to see but totally misinterpret the scripture.

hmmm... I am not quite sure what is wrong here. I am amazed that anyone would say that a person speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost is not speaking for the Lord. I'm not sure if you are a new member or missed that seminar lesson or you just refuse to accept any scriptures I use because I used them...

It seems to me that you are accepting that these men and women who are being filled with the spirit are in fact prophets, and they are in fact prophesying with the spirit and giving true prophecies. But you are bothered by the idea that they could be the Lord's mouth piece because you have been taught that ONLY the Prophet and President of the church is the Lord's mouth piece and you give him more importance in your life than say perhaps an 18 year old missionary boy. And you couldn't imagine that an 18 year old missionary boy could possibly speak for the Lord like the Prophet/President of the church can where it is actually scripture, the will of the Lord, the mind of the Lord, the word of the Lord, the voice of teh Lord and the power of God to salvation.

Do I understand you correctly?

And then I also said that not only could any boy with the spirit speak for the Lord in that way, but also women who speak by the power of the Holy Ghost can actually speak for the Lord in exactly that way. (That might really sound off to you...)

Let me show you a scripture that says exactly that, without question...

The following verses are speaking about the missionaries that we send forth to preach the gospel to the world. The chapter heading says, "1–5, The words of the elders when moved upon by the Holy Ghost are scripture;"

While this was a revelation that started about the Missionary Orson Hyde, the Lord quickly turned it to reference all of the missionaries who are ordained as Elders and sent forth to teach and convert the world. Today, that means 18 year old boys and while I will not get into the details, it also includes the Sister missionaries who are sent forth.

Now, read this and please tell me, do the missionaries talked about in these verses speak for the Lord as His mouth pieces having as much authority to speak for the Lord as the Prophet and President of the church?

2 And, behold, and lo, this is an ensample unto all those who were ordained unto this priesthood, whose mission is appointed unto them to go forth—
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation. - D&C 68

Peace,
Amonhi

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote: So, I have given you now 3 or more examples of active priesthood leaders who were acting in positions of authority that met the criteria given in verse 37. This then shows that these verses actually apply to the active priesthood holders who are serving in positions of authority within the church, not non-members or less active members. The idea that a less active member is given a position of authority and IMMEDIATELY begins to exercise unrighteous dominion is kind of silly. Why would they be given authority when they are less active?

Peace,
Amonhi

A few exceptions is of no concern to me and it is also your judgement on them which I do not accept.

2 of them were judged and found guilty by the church, not me. Since the church excommunicated the 2 apostles after 8 & 18 years of hiding their sexual affairs from the prophet and their fellow apostles, I think that during the 8 and 18 years those apostles met the criteria given in those verses. Not my judgement, but the churches... You don't have to accept that either.

Peace,
Amonhi

Boo hoo - yes just like Judas fell so did King David - it does not fill your mantra that the majority of the active PH holders are cursed Section 121.
We still use the scriptures that King David wrote prior to his fall, he did not lead the people astray but fell into personal apostasy. Likewise I have been called to many positions and have called many people to positions in the church as well. Very really have I see that people have issues described in section 121.. I have never seen it in a stake presidency or bishopric, neither in the Quorum of 12 Apostles or the first presidency.
Sure you can document a few examples so what it does not match your mantra that the majority of active PH holders have gone astray.
The only people who say that are fault finders and when they cant find any fault they invent them.

Actually, I wouldn't expect you to see it because you teach unrighteous dominion and call it good. Of course you wouldn't recognize it as evil or bad and so would not see the issue. You say that we should be influenced by virtue of someone's priesthood authority so much so that we should give up our own thoughts, beliefs, revelations, study and experience if we are told to by someone who holds a higher priesthood than we do with the Prophet of the church being the ultimate authority that we should obey.

People hold an image of God in their minds. Whatever that image is, is what they ascribe to. If they view God as a tyrant that demands unquestioned obedience and respect, then when they are acting for God in leadership positions in the church, guess what they expect from those they lead...

Let's say that you teach follow the prophet with a very strict requirement that if we think have a belief and the prophet teaches contrary to that belief, then we are obligated, required or expected to drop our own belief regardless of what experience, revelation, study or learning that brought us to that belief and accept whatever the prophet tells us. There is no persuasion, just obedience by virtue of his priesthood. Well, what would happen if you with that mindset became the Prophet over the church tomorrow? Do you think your beliefs would change? No. You would become exactly what you taught people to do and you would expect, require and teach obey me or go to hell.

Well, the same thing happens on a smaller scale when you are called to other positions of authority. If you were to be called as a bishop, you would expect your ward to support you in your calling the way that you expect them to support the Prophet in his. If someone challenged you or disagreed with you on some thing or other, you would feel they were out of line and "not sustaining their leaders". You would be a tyrant and not even know it. you would be exercising unrighteous dominion, persecuting the saints and fighting against God and think you were doing well because your view of what is expected by us toward the prophet and toward God was just being mirrored down to your little area of authority. And you would say that there is nothing wrong. If I was in your ward for example, and you were the bishop and had the obey mindset, then you would require me to accept your beliefs or interpretations of the scriptures or be excommunicated. Some Bishops or Stake Presidents might do this more or less, but doing it in any degree constitutes unrighteous dominion. And the Lord said,

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. - D&C 121

So, do you believe that it is right for the priesthood leaders to have to persuade those they lead to believe or do something and if they are unable to persuade them, then the problem rests with the leader's lack of long-suffering, gentleness and meekness, unfeigned love, kindness, and pure knowledge?

Or,

do you believe that the priesthood leader should be respected as the servant of God and obeyed by virtue of his priesthood and position in the priesthood to the extend that they shouldn't have to persuade those they lead and if those they lead do not believe or support or do something that that their leader tells them to do, the problem rests with the people being led who do not respect the priesthood authority of the leader?

So many leaders in the church believe the second option which is why they are called, but not chosen. Almost all of the leaders in the church believe the second option which is completely contrary to what the Lord teaches in verses 41-42:

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— - D&C 121

If the people do not follow a priesthood leader, then it is a lack in the leader and not a lack in the follower. If you learn this, then the Lord promises in the last verse of the section that you will have the Holy Ghost and your dominion will flow to you without compulsion...

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. - D&C 121

How many leaders in the church do you believe expect to have influence over those under them by virtue of their priesthood position? My experience tells me that "Almost All" of them do. Just as you expect to be influenced by the Prophet by virtue of his priesthood.

This is called unrighteous dominion. It is the same belief that supports the dogma, "Follow the Prophet", "Obey Your leaders, even if they are wrong", and other such mantras. If you believe these mantras and philosophies, then you won't see the unrighteous dominion because you support it and do it.

The Lord didn't mince words in telling us what He expects of us as priesthood leaders in authority. He could have been plainer in His statements. It says, so simply, "NO POWER OR INFLUENCE OUGHT TO BE MAINTAINED BY VIRTUE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, ONLY BY PERSUASION..."

But here we are having a discussion about whether or not "Follow the Prophet" and other slogans like, "obey your leaders even if they are wrong", (which plainly means "be influenced by virtue of a man's priesthood"), is the Lord's doctrine... /:) #-o

Peace,
Amonhi

EvenTheLeastSaint wrote:I will quote a scripture that tells us plainly, without equivocation, without leaving us with something that must be assumed to arrive at our conclusion, and leaving nothing to our own interpretation, this scripture tells us precisely what it is that we must follow. I don't know if anyone on this thread has quoted this scripture yet but if so it can't hurt to quote it again:

D&C 45:

56 And at that day, when I shall come in my glory, shall the parable be fulfilled which I spake concerning the ten virgins.
57 For they that are wise and have received the truth, and have taken the Holy Spirit for their guide, and have not been deceived -- verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day.
58 And the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance; and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children shall grow up without sin unto salvation.
59 For the Lord shall be in their midst, and his glory shall be upon them, and he will be their king and their lawgiver.

Well, I feel a little silly... I said as much, but didn't back it up with this excellent reference. Thank you so much for providing this. There is really no way to read this as anything other than it says. So glad you were watching the show and put your popcorn down to jump in. :ymhug:

This says we must take the Holy Spirit for a guide, not a man or men (arm of flesh), not an organization, but the Holy Spirit. Can anything be clearer than that? Can anyone point to scripture that in such unmistakeable words says we must "follow the prophet", or we must "take the prophet for a guide" or we will not receive the truth, and we will be deceived. These verses, in fact, tell us that if we take anything other than the Holy Spirit for a guide we WILL NOT receive the truth, and we WILL be deceived. So please find me scripture that says in these words "follow the prophet". I don't mean something that lets someone loosely overlay his or her own paradigm onto scripture; such as "Jacob followed Nephi's command THEREFORE we must always follow the prophet without question".

I have quoted something that Amonhi said above because it fits with the scripture that I quoted and it is a perfect explanation of why it is so critical that we take the Holy Spirit and nothing else for a guide. I hope he doesn't mind.

Of course not. Thank you so much!

Amonhi wrote: ...
If you do not have oil in your lamp enough to guide yourself without relying on the light of others, then you will not be welcomed when the groom comes. You will not have a place in the Celestial Kingdom with the Gods. If you cannot hear the voice of the Lord and trust him, then you will not be accepted by him as his sheep and his church that worship in his name. It doesn't matter if you are baptized into the LDS Church or how well you follow the prophets and leaders of the church. What matters is how well you follow the spirit... How well you follow HIS Voice and His words... How well you " do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall commands". If you place a man, any man even a prophet, above the spirit, and give that man more influence in your life than you give the spirit, then you have placed a man above God voice and God's voice is God's will.
...

+5

Peace,
Amonhi

2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves,(including narcissistic and arrogant,) covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers,(covenant breakers,) false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded,(NOTE: "Am-On-Hi") lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 4:
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Revelations 12:
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Amonhi wrote: If the people do not follow a priesthood leader, then it is a lack in the leader and not a lack in the follower. If you learn this, then the Lord promises in the last verse of the section that you will have the Holy Ghost and your dominion will flow to you without compulsion...

Peace,
Amonhi

The people disobeyed Noah and were all destroyed so you say it is Noah fault and he was acting with unrighteous dominion.

Rowe, Spence Sarah Menet, Hector Sosa and many others have received visions and dreams including myself and many forum members on this forum so you have to obey my command and vision as if it was scripture and not kick against the pricks (121) and fight the leadership of the church for we/they all say that one needs to obey and follow the prophet for for our/your protection that is one of the central themes that those who have published their visions have written about.

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote: A few exceptions is of no concern to me and it is also your judgement on them which I do not accept.

2 of them were judged and found guilty by the church, not me. Since the church excommunicated the 2 apostles after 8 & 18 years of hiding their sexual affairs from the prophet and their fellow apostles, I think that during the 8 and 18 years those apostles met the criteria given in those verses. Not my judgement, but the churches... You don't have to accept that either.

Peace,
Amonhi

Boo hoo - yes just like Judas fell so did King David - it does not fill your mantra that the majority of the active PH holders are cursed Section 121.
We still use the scriptures that King David wrote prior to his fall, he did not lead the people astray but fell into personal apostasy. Likewise I have been called to many positions and have called many people to positions in the church as well. Very really have I see that people have issues described in section 121.. I have never seen it in a stake presidency or bishopric, neither in the Quorum of 12 Apostles or the first presidency.
Sure you can document a few examples so what it does not match your mantra that the majority of active PH holders have gone astray.
The only people who say that are fault finders and when they cant find any fault they invent them.

Actually, I wouldn't expect you to see it because you teach unrighteous dominion and call it good. Of course you wouldn't recognize it as evil or bad and so would not see the issue. You say that we should be influenced by virtue of someone's priesthood authority so much so that we should give up our own thoughts, beliefs, revelations, study and experience if we are told to by someone who holds a higher priesthood than we do with the Prophet of the church being the ultimate authority that we should obey.

People hold an image of God in their minds. Whatever that image is, is what they ascribe to. If they view God as a tyrant that demands unquestioned obedience and respect, then when they are acting for God in leadership positions in the church, guess what they expect from those they lead...

Let's say that you teach follow the prophet with a very strict requirement that if we think have a belief and the prophet teaches contrary to that belief, then we are obligated, required or expected to drop our own belief regardless of what experience, revelation, study or learning that brought us to that belief and accept whatever the prophet tells us. There is no persuasion, just obedience by virtue of his priesthood. Well, what would happen if you with that mindset became the Prophet over the church tomorrow? Do you think your beliefs would change? No. You would become exactly what you taught people to do and you would expect, require and teach obey me or go to hell.

Well, the same thing happens on a smaller scale when you are called to other positions of authority. If you were to be called as a bishop, you would expect your ward to support you in your calling the way that you expect them to support the Prophet in his. If someone challenged you or disagreed with you on some thing or other, you would feel they were out of line and "not sustaining their leaders". You would be a tyrant and not even know it. you would be exercising unrighteous dominion, persecuting the saints and fighting against God and think you were doing well because your view of what is expected by us toward the prophet and toward God was just being mirrored down to your little area of authority. And you would say that there is nothing wrong. If I was in your ward for example, and you were the bishop and had the obey mindset, then you would require me to accept your beliefs or interpretations of the scriptures or be excommunicated. Some Bishops or Stake Presidents might do this more or less, but doing it in any degree constitutes unrighteous dominion. And the Lord said,

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. - D&C 121

So, do you believe that it is right for the priesthood leaders to have to persuade those they lead to believe or do something and if they are unable to persuade them, then the problem rests with the leader's lack of long-suffering, gentleness and meekness, unfeigned love, kindness, and pure knowledge?

Or,

do you believe that the priesthood leader should be respected as the servant of God and obeyed by virtue of his priesthood and position in the priesthood to the extend that they shouldn't have to persuade those they lead and if those they lead do not believe or support or do something that that their leader tells them to do, the problem rests with the people being led who do not respect the priesthood authority of the leader?

So many leaders in the church believe the second option which is why they are called, but not chosen. Almost all of the leaders in the church believe the second option which is completely contrary to what the Lord teaches in verses 41-42:

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— - D&C 121

If the people do not follow a priesthood leader, then it is a lack in the leader and not a lack in the follower. If you learn this, then the Lord promises in the last verse of the section that you will have the Holy Ghost and your dominion will flow to you without compulsion...

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. - D&C 121

How many leaders in the church do you believe expect to have influence over those under them by virtue of their priesthood position? My experience tells me that "Almost All" of them do. Just as you expect to be influenced by the Prophet by virtue of his priesthood.

This is called unrighteous dominion. It is the same belief that supports the dogma, "Follow the Prophet", "Obey Your leaders, even if they are wrong", and other such mantras. If you believe these mantras and philosophies, then you won't see the unrighteous dominion because you support it and do it.

The Lord didn't mince words in telling us what He expects of us as priesthood leaders in authority. He could have been plainer in His statements. It says, so simply, "NO POWER OR INFLUENCE OUGHT TO BE MAINTAINED BY VIRTUE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, ONLY BY PERSUASION..."

But here we are having a discussion about whether or not "Follow the Prophet" and other slogans like, "obey your leaders even if they are wrong", (which plainly means "be influenced by virtue of a man's priesthood"), is the Lord's doctrine... /:) #-o

Peace,
Amonhi

I've always wondered WHY ? when asked this question
would some priesthood holders feel this way.
(“What office do you hold in the Church? What is your priesthood position?”)
“Oh, I’m only an elder.” Do they feel less ?

Taken From an address delivered at the Regional Representatives seminar, October 3, 1974.
By Elder Bruce R. McConkie Of the Council of the Twelve
"Only an Elder "
https://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/06/only ... r?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

BruceRGilbert wrote:

2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves,(including narcissistic and arrogant,) covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers,(covenant breakers,) false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded,(NOTE: "Am-On-Hi") lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 4:
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Revelations 12:
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Bruce,

You just plainly revealed your fruits. Instead of addressing the issues, you have gone after the messenger, calling and accusing Amonhi of all sorts of things.

Most all of your posts in this discussion have been veiled and in this case pretty pointed accusations against a person while you've ignored addressing or dealing with what is being said and countering it with your own reasoning or pure knowledge.

I'm disappointed and a bit surprised.

-Finrock

Finrock wrote:I want you to know that I have nothing but love for the LDS Church. I've stated this before and I state it again, but the Church has been nothing but good to me over the course of my life. I have no animosity towards the Church or the Church leaders. For most of my Mormon life, I believed and trusted in my Church leaders much like you and others on this forum appear to believe and trust in them. I love my bishop. I love the apostles. I love General Conference. I make all of my children at least bring a notepad and a writing tool when we gather around to listen during GC time. I don't force them to listen or to pay attention, but my hope is that they will see that time as an opportunity to be taught by the Holy Spirit. I love taking my family to Church. I love serving in the Church. I love helping the Church. I sustain the leaders of the Church. I pray for them and I do my part in my Ward to fulfill my callings and support my Ward family. This love that I have for the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a huge motivator/factor for why I even care and participate on these forums. Lastly, I feel that I am aligned with most all of the apostles (both living and dead) in my perspective because it is in large measure through their words that the Spirit has lead me to where I am at.

You can be a loyal and active member of the LDS Church, love the Church, and love the LDS prophets, and still believe that the Church is not perfect, that the prophets are not perfect, and that following the Holy Spirit is more important than following a man and his title or position in the priesthood. It seems silly and almost unbelievable that I would have to state this.

Anyone who accuses me of apostasy, or of having an axe to grind with the Church or the leaders, is a liar and doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.

Although when the prophets are speaking by the Spirit you ought to listen to them but, they are not your Master, they are not your God, they are not infallible, and they are not the Holy Spirit. We do not nor should we bow down and submit to them as if they were.

-Finrock

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote: If the people do not follow a priesthood leader, then it is a lack in the leader and not a lack in the follower. If you learn this, then the Lord promises in the last verse of the section that you will have the Holy Ghost and your dominion will flow to you without compulsion...

Peace,
Amonhi

The people disobeyed Noah and were all destroyed so you say it is Noah fault and he was acting with unrighteous dominion.

It is clear that you don't believe the Lord when he clearly says,

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— - D&C 121

Noah tried to persuade and it didn't work and the people perished. Satan said "let's save everyone by using unrighteous means". Which of the two methods do you support?

Peace,
Amonhi

Finrock wrote:

BruceRGilbert wrote:

2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves,(including narcissistic and arrogant,) covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers,(covenant breakers,) false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded,(NOTE: "Am-On-Hi") lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Timothy 4:
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Revelations 12:
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Bruce,

You just plainly revealed your fruits. Instead of addressing the issues, you have gone after the messenger, calling and accusing Amonhi of all sorts of things.

Most all of your posts in this discussion have been veiled and in this case pretty pointed accusations against a person while you've ignored addressing or dealing with what is being said and countering it with your own reasoning or pure knowledge.

I'm disappointed and a bit surprised.

-Finrock

AM-0N-HI is a false messenger who seeks to mislead and deceive LDS people. There is nothing wrong with exposing his little sophistry game he is playing. You are obviously caught up in it based on your own posts. Step back and see him for who he really is. He seeks to draw people away from the Lords church and into forbidden paths. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Don't fall for it!

BruceRGilbert wrote:

2 Timothy 3:
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves,(including narcissistic and arrogant,) covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers,(covenant breakers,) false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded,(NOTE: "Am-On-Hi") lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
...

First off, yeah, I'm going to agree with Finrock and call this a bite, snarl, growl and ultimately an attack against me and my character. Unfortunately, you haven't realized that this in no way effects any of my words, points and posts because you haven't addressed them at all, just gotten angry with me because of what I said and how I said it. Your reaction reminds me of the peoples reaction to 3rd Nephi when he taught them..

And Nephi did minister with power and with great authority.
18 And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily. - 3 Nephi 7:17-18

Yeah I might be narcissistic and think of myself as equal with Prophets with the potential to be a God, but I also see everyone else the same way and that is the reason I have been posting in this thread, to tell people that they can be prophets and speak to God just as much as any other man including the president of the church. God hasn't cursed us or limited our progression so that we are not able to progress as far as or further than the leaders of the church. He doesn't select leaders because they are the most intelligent, spiritual, wise, knowledgeable, righteous, perfect, etc. The ONLY reason that we cannot know God as well as any other person that has ever lived, is our lack of faith. Faith in God and faith in ourselves.

While you think that I am tearing down the leaders of the Church and debasing them, I am actually raising everyone else up and making us all equal. I understand why the Lord and other prophets taught that everyone should speak in the name of the Lord. I want that will all my heart.

Anyway, I encourage you to learn the fruits of the sheep as compared to the fruits of the wolves and put your teeth away and join the flock of peacefully bleating sheep. (see - By their fruits you shall know them

Secondly, my name...Its Amonhi. It doesn't mean Am-On-Hi, it doesn't mean I am high, and it doesn't mean I am higher than you. Making a person's name into something that it isn't so that you can make fun of, tease or criticize them for something that doesn't actually exist is so kindergarten... 8-| We're big boys now with big words and the ability to use our words in good ways or bad ways. The absolute best thing you can do for your cause is to address and correct the errors you see in my posts and show why what I said is wrong or incorrect. Finding silly ways to mis-write my name does not make anything I said go away or lose its power.

However, while that is true, I did think of this one way that I have to admit really sounds funny, "A mo nhi".

Oh, and you quoted this at me,

Revelations 12:
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

I wouldn't quote this one at anyone because it makes you look hypocritical by accusing someone of being an accuser... might not go over very well.

Really though, why don't you just show my error in doctrine, show how I am mis-interpreting the scriptures, use pure knowledge, go by the spirit, talk to the angels and get their ideas, you know, what I do...

Peace,
Amonhi

Finrock wrote:

Finrock wrote:I want you to know that I have nothing but love for the LDS Church. I've stated this before and I state it again, but the Church has been nothing but good to me over the course of my life. I have no animosity towards the Church or the Church leaders. For most of my Mormon life, I believed and trusted in my Church leaders much like you and others on this forum appear to believe and trust in them. I love my bishop. I love the apostles. I love General Conference. I make all of my children at least bring a notepad and a writing tool when we gather around to listen during GC time. I don't force them to listen or to pay attention, but my hope is that they will see that time as an opportunity to be taught by the Holy Spirit. I love taking my family to Church. I love serving in the Church. I love helping the Church. I sustain the leaders of the Church. I pray for them and I do my part in my Ward to fulfill my callings and support my Ward family. This love that I have for the Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a huge motivator/factor for why I even care and participate on these forums. Lastly, I feel that I am aligned with most all of the apostles (both living and dead) in my perspective because it is in large measure through their words that the Spirit has lead me to where I am at.

You can be a loyal and active member of the LDS Church, love the Church, and love the LDS prophets, and still believe that the Church is not perfect, that the prophets are not perfect, and that following the Holy Spirit is more important than following a man and his title or position in the priesthood. It seems silly and almost unbelievable that I would have to state this.

Anyone who accuses me of apostasy, or of having an axe to grind with the Church or the leaders, is a liar and doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.

Although when the prophets are speaking by the Spirit you ought to listen to them but, they are not your Master, they are not your God, they are not infallible, and they are not the Holy Spirit. We do not nor should we bow down and submit to them as if they were.

-Finrock

Well said!

We do not nor should we bow down and submit to them as if they were.

And the natural consequence of thinking we should do this to our leaders is that when we are called to be leaders, we expect this of others... So, I'll add that as leaders we should not expect that of those people we claim to love and serve...

Thank you Finrock

:ymhug:
Amonhi

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote: A few exceptions is of no concern to me and it is also your judgement on them which I do not accept.

2 of them were judged and found guilty by the church, not me. Since the church excommunicated the 2 apostles after 8 & 18 years of hiding their sexual affairs from the prophet and their fellow apostles, I think that during the 8 and 18 years those apostles met the criteria given in those verses. Not my judgement, but the churches... You don't have to accept that either.

Peace,
Amonhi

Boo hoo - yes just like Judas fell so did King David - it does not fill your mantra that the majority of the active PH holders are cursed Section 121.
We still use the scriptures that King David wrote prior to his fall, he did not lead the people astray but fell into personal apostasy. Likewise I have been called to many positions and have called many people to positions in the church as well. Very really have I see that people have issues described in section 121.. I have never seen it in a stake presidency or bishopric, neither in the Quorum of 12 Apostles or the first presidency.
Sure you can document a few examples so what it does not match your mantra that the majority of active PH holders have gone astray.
The only people who say that are fault finders and when they cant find any fault they invent them.

Actually, I wouldn't expect you to see it because you teach unrighteous dominion and call it good. Of course you wouldn't recognize it as evil or bad and so would not see the issue. You say that we should be influenced by virtue of someone's priesthood authority so much so that we should give up our own thoughts, beliefs, revelations, study and experience if we are told to by someone who holds a higher priesthood than we do with the Prophet of the church being the ultimate authority that we should obey.

People hold an image of God in their minds. Whatever that image is, is what they ascribe to. If they view God as a tyrant that demands unquestioned obedience and respect, then when they are acting for God in leadership positions in the church, guess what they expect from those they lead...

Let's say that you teach follow the prophet with a very strict requirement that if we think have a belief and the prophet teaches contrary to that belief, then we are obligated, required or expected to drop our own belief regardless of what experience, revelation, study or learning that brought us to that belief and accept whatever the prophet tells us. There is no persuasion, just obedience by virtue of his priesthood. Well, what would happen if you with that mindset became the Prophet over the church tomorrow? Do you think your beliefs would change? No. You would become exactly what you taught people to do and you would expect, require and teach obey me or go to hell.

Well, the same thing happens on a smaller scale when you are called to other positions of authority. If you were to be called as a bishop, you would expect your ward to support you in your calling the way that you expect them to support the Prophet in his. If someone challenged you or disagreed with you on some thing or other, you would feel they were out of line and "not sustaining their leaders". You would be a tyrant and not even know it. you would be exercising unrighteous dominion, persecuting the saints and fighting against God and think you were doing well because your view of what is expected by us toward the prophet and toward God was just being mirrored down to your little area of authority. And you would say that there is nothing wrong. If I was in your ward for example, and you were the bishop and had the obey mindset, then you would require me to accept your beliefs or interpretations of the scriptures or be excommunicated. Some Bishops or Stake Presidents might do this more or less, but doing it in any degree constitutes unrighteous dominion. And the Lord said,

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. - D&C 121

So, do you believe that it is right for the priesthood leaders to have to persuade those they lead to believe or do something and if they are unable to persuade them, then the problem rests with the leader's lack of long-suffering, gentleness and meekness, unfeigned love, kindness, and pure knowledge?

Or,

do you believe that the priesthood leader should be respected as the servant of God and obeyed by virtue of his priesthood and position in the priesthood to the extend that they shouldn't have to persuade those they lead and if those they lead do not believe or support or do something that that their leader tells them to do, the problem rests with the people being led who do not respect the priesthood authority of the leader?

So many leaders in the church believe the second option which is why they are called, but not chosen. Almost all of the leaders in the church believe the second option which is completely contrary to what the Lord teaches in verses 41-42:

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— - D&C 121

If the people do not follow a priesthood leader, then it is a lack in the leader and not a lack in the follower. If you learn this, then the Lord promises in the last verse of the section that you will have the Holy Ghost and your dominion will flow to you without compulsion...

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. - D&C 121

How many leaders in the church do you believe expect to have influence over those under them by virtue of their priesthood position? My experience tells me that "Almost All" of them do. Just as you expect to be influenced by the Prophet by virtue of his priesthood.

This is called unrighteous dominion. It is the same belief that supports the dogma, "Follow the Prophet", "Obey Your leaders, even if they are wrong", and other such mantras. If you believe these mantras and philosophies, then you won't see the unrighteous dominion because you support it and do it.

The Lord didn't mince words in telling us what He expects of us as priesthood leaders in authority. He could have been plainer in His statements. It says, so simply, "NO POWER OR INFLUENCE OUGHT TO BE MAINTAINED BY VIRTUE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, ONLY BY PERSUASION..."

But here we are having a discussion about whether or not "Follow the Prophet" and other slogans like, "obey your leaders even if they are wrong", (which plainly means "be influenced by virtue of a man's priesthood"), is the Lord's doctrine... /:) #-o

Peace,
Amonhi

There Prophet is directed by Jesus Christ himself, so not following the Prophet is not following God Amonhi. Why twist and turn the truth when it is so simple? A rebellious spirit is not of God, a disobedient spirit who leads others astray is of the devil. One can write paragraphs, but cannot listen to simple doctrine.

kennyhs wrote:

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:
2 of them were judged and found guilty by the church, not me. Since the church excommunicated the 2 apostles after 8 & 18 years of hiding their sexual affairs from the prophet and their fellow apostles, I think that during the 8 and 18 years those apostles met the criteria given in those verses. Not my judgement, but the churches... You don't have to accept that either.

Peace,
Amonhi

Boo hoo - yes just like Judas fell so did King David - it does not fill your mantra that the majority of the active PH holders are cursed Section 121.
We still use the scriptures that King David wrote prior to his fall, he did not lead the people astray but fell into personal apostasy. Likewise I have been called to many positions and have called many people to positions in the church as well. Very really have I see that people have issues described in section 121.. I have never seen it in a stake presidency or bishopric, neither in the Quorum of 12 Apostles or the first presidency.
Sure you can document a few examples so what it does not match your mantra that the majority of active PH holders have gone astray.
The only people who say that are fault finders and when they cant find any fault they invent them.

Actually, I wouldn't expect you to see it because you teach unrighteous dominion and call it good. Of course you wouldn't recognize it as evil or bad and so would not see the issue. You say that we should be influenced by virtue of someone's priesthood authority so much so that we should give up our own thoughts, beliefs, revelations, study and experience if we are told to by someone who holds a higher priesthood than we do with the Prophet of the church being the ultimate authority that we should obey.

People hold an image of God in their minds. Whatever that image is, is what they ascribe to. If they view God as a tyrant that demands unquestioned obedience and respect, then when they are acting for God in leadership positions in the church, guess what they expect from those they lead...

Let's say that you teach follow the prophet with a very strict requirement that if we think have a belief and the prophet teaches contrary to that belief, then we are obligated, required or expected to drop our own belief regardless of what experience, revelation, study or learning that brought us to that belief and accept whatever the prophet tells us. There is no persuasion, just obedience by virtue of his priesthood. Well, what would happen if you with that mindset became the Prophet over the church tomorrow? Do you think your beliefs would change? No. You would become exactly what you taught people to do and you would expect, require and teach obey me or go to hell.

Well, the same thing happens on a smaller scale when you are called to other positions of authority. If you were to be called as a bishop, you would expect your ward to support you in your calling the way that you expect them to support the Prophet in his. If someone challenged you or disagreed with you on some thing or other, you would feel they were out of line and "not sustaining their leaders". You would be a tyrant and not even know it. you would be exercising unrighteous dominion, persecuting the saints and fighting against God and think you were doing well because your view of what is expected by us toward the prophet and toward God was just being mirrored down to your little area of authority. And you would say that there is nothing wrong. If I was in your ward for example, and you were the bishop and had the obey mindset, then you would require me to accept your beliefs or interpretations of the scriptures or be excommunicated. Some Bishops or Stake Presidents might do this more or less, but doing it in any degree constitutes unrighteous dominion. And the Lord said,

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. - D&C 121

So, do you believe that it is right for the priesthood leaders to have to persuade those they lead to believe or do something and if they are unable to persuade them, then the problem rests with the leader's lack of long-suffering, gentleness and meekness, unfeigned love, kindness, and pure knowledge?

Or,

do you believe that the priesthood leader should be respected as the servant of God and obeyed by virtue of his priesthood and position in the priesthood to the extend that they shouldn't have to persuade those they lead and if those they lead do not believe or support or do something that that their leader tells them to do, the problem rests with the people being led who do not respect the priesthood authority of the leader?

So many leaders in the church believe the second option which is why they are called, but not chosen. Almost all of the leaders in the church believe the second option which is completely contrary to what the Lord teaches in verses 41-42:

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile— - D&C 121

If the people do not follow a priesthood leader, then it is a lack in the leader and not a lack in the follower. If you learn this, then the Lord promises in the last verse of the section that you will have the Holy Ghost and your dominion will flow to you without compulsion...

46 The Holy Ghost shall be thy constant companion, and thy scepter an unchanging scepter of righteousness and truth; and thy dominion shall be an everlasting dominion, and without compulsory means it shall flow unto thee forever and ever. - D&C 121

How many leaders in the church do you believe expect to have influence over those under them by virtue of their priesthood position? My experience tells me that "Almost All" of them do. Just as you expect to be influenced by the Prophet by virtue of his priesthood.

This is called unrighteous dominion. It is the same belief that supports the dogma, "Follow the Prophet", "Obey Your leaders, even if they are wrong", and other such mantras. If you believe these mantras and philosophies, then you won't see the unrighteous dominion because you support it and do it.

The Lord didn't mince words in telling us what He expects of us as priesthood leaders in authority. He could have been plainer in His statements. It says, so simply, "NO POWER OR INFLUENCE OUGHT TO BE MAINTAINED BY VIRTUE OF THE PRIESTHOOD, ONLY BY PERSUASION..."

But here we are having a discussion about whether or not "Follow the Prophet" and other slogans like, "obey your leaders even if they are wrong", (which plainly means "be influenced by virtue of a man's priesthood"), is the Lord's doctrine... /:) #-o

Peace,
Amonhi

There Prophet is directed by Jesus Christ himself, so not following the Prophet is not following God Amonhi. Why twist and turn the truth when it is so simple? A rebellious spirit is not of God, a disobedient spirit who leads others astray is of the devil. One can write paragraphs, but cannot listen to simple doctrine.

Here is some of your " simple doctrine " for you.
You said: "so not following the Prophet is not following God ", that's sooooooo ridiculous !
So I guess that the thousands of people in the world that are not in our church, that know God and love HIM and keep his commandments,
don't follow Him; simply because they don't follow our prophet ! I DON'T THINK SO.
What makes you think that "we" (meaning anyone) are not directed by Jesus Christ also, and can know HIS voice,
and can follow HIM, just like the prophet does.
WHY do you seem to think that we even need a middle man. We DON'T.
Sorry but the prophet has no hold on being closer to God than I can be.
And I believe that is the simple truth.

Isaiah wrote:
Here is some of your " simple doctrine " for you.
You said: "so not following the Prophet is not following God ", that's sooooooo ridiculous !
So I guess that the thousands of people in the world that are not in our church, that know God and love HIM and keep his commandments,
don't follow Him; simply because they don't follow our prophet ! I DON'T THINK SO.
What makes you think that "we" (meaning anyone) are not directed by Jesus Christ also, and can know HIS voice,
and can follow HIM, just like the prophet does.
WHY do you seem to think that we even need a middle man. We DON'T.
Sorry but the prophet has no hold on being closer to God than I can be.
And I believe that is the simple truth.

G_d seems to think we need a middle man and hence calls Prophets and gives them authority to speak in His name. All the scripture we have are from he Prophets which you propose you agree with but deny the truth in them. Also you you deny that G_d gives continued revelation to his prophets like in days of old and they are Scripture unto us.
The conference ensign is scripture unto us. Most of the New Testament and even some of the D&C are letters of counsel written to various 'branches' of the church but is taken as scripture. Surprise surprise we have continuing scripture today like as in days of old.
To say we need no middle man or Scripture from G_d as he also speaks directly to us is the first sign of serous apostasy that we read about throughout the scriptures. Not long if you continue this course you will be excommunicated if you are not already by your own hand. It is my duty to warn you and you have now been warned and your sins will be upon your own head.

Mark wrote:

Finrock wrote:Bruce,

You just plainly revealed your fruits. Instead of addressing the issues, you have gone after the messenger, calling and accusing Amonhi of all sorts of things.

Most all of your posts in this discussion have been veiled and in this case pretty pointed accusations against a person while you've ignored addressing or dealing with what is being said and countering it with your own reasoning or pure knowledge.

I'm disappointed and a bit surprised.

-Finrock

AM-0N-HI is a false messenger who seeks to mislead and deceive LDS people.

Well, M-ARK, Then by all means correct his false teachings with greater knowledge, and higher principles. If you claim to have the insight required to see through my deception then show the deception and leve out the personal attacks. Be better than me. Be more loving and more kind and more peaceful and more gentle and more knowledgeable and more patient, and more long suffering and more meek and more persuasive than I am. Exhibit more of the fruits of the spirit than I do if you want to show me as a wolf in sheep's clothing. It doesn't make sense to start acting like a wolf to expose the wolves. It just makes you a wolf.

There is nothing wrong with exposing his little sophistry game he is playing.

Then stop claiming it and expose it. There are 4 members of the forum that are actively opposed to my comments in general, but specifically on this thread. They are you, Freedomforall, BruceRGilbert and Spaced_Out. I have made a number of significant posts on this thread with detailed scriptures and quotes by leaders of the church that support my views. Any one you could have addressed these posts to show my error.

I'll give Spaced_Out a little more credit because he looked at my comments regarding D&C 121 and essentially threw D&C 121 out saying that it's irrelevant or not applicable to us active members. While I strongly disagree with his conclusion at least he addressed it.

Here are the links to the posts I am talking about. Feel free to expose my little game.

Here are the posts that as of yet have gone un-challenged, un-responded to:
1 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 18 unaddressed quotes from Prophets and apostles that directly contradict the idea of Following the Prophet and 13 reasons not to.
2 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 7 more reasons and 9 scriptures 1 quote and an entire talk by a member of the First Presidency on this exact subject
3 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 5 more reasons, 4 new quotes
4 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 1 reason
5 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 1 reason
6 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 4 more reasons and 4 more contradicting scriptures
7 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 8 more reasons and 9 more contradicting scriptures
8 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 2 more reasons and 1 more contradicting quote by President John Taylor
9 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 3 more reasons
10 - Unaddressed/Unchallenged Post with 5 more reasons

That is a total of approximately 51 different reasons, 24 quotes from Presidents and Apostles and 30 separate passages in scriptures that I provided which you are ignoring or refusing to address. I only counted the information I provided that as far as I am aware remains unchallenged and unquestioned.

I'm adding my post on:
the definition of a prophet and their role
An example of the above showing How Nephi Became a prophet
Unrighteous Dominion defined and why Almost All are doing it

I'm also interested is seeing how you resolve the "errors" in:
Isaiah's post Be Wary of Man and His Words
EvenTheLeastSaint's Post Wise Virgins take the spirit for their guide

You are obviously caught up in it based on your own posts. Step back and see him for who he really is. He seeks to draw people away from the Lords church and into forbidden paths. He is a wolf in sheeps clothing. Don't fall for it!

I seek to fulfill my calling which is to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn.

11 Q. What are we to understand by sealing the one hundred and forty-four thousand, out of all the tribes of Israel—twelve thousand out of every tribe?
A. We are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests, ordained unto the holy order of God, to administer the everlasting gospel; for they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth, to bring as many as will come to the church of the Firstborn. - D&C 77:11

And to do that, I have to bring them to God, not a forbidden path...God. Not through prophets, but directly for themselves. This is nothing less than Moses tried to do... unfortunately I seem to be hitting the same obstacles with some people.

23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory. - D&C 84

Pointing people to God is supposed to be a good thing. But you tell me to stop pointing them to God and rather point them to man. Which is more able to lead a person correctly, God or man?

Peace,
Amonhi

Doesn't seem to mention anything about following a prophet ?
Better to follow Christ.

CHRISTS DOCTRINE

3 NEPHI 11

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine.
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.
36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.
37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.
38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.
40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.
41 Therefore, go forth unto this people, and declare the words which I have spoken, unto the ends of the earth.

Follow the Prophet!

that they might know concerning the prophecies which had been spoken by the mouths of their fathers, which were delivered them by the hand of the Lord.

kennyhs wrote:There Prophet is directed by Jesus Christ himself, so not following the Prophet is not following God Amonhi. Why twist and turn the truth when it is so simple? A rebellious spirit is not of God, a disobedient spirit who leads others astray is of the devil. One can write paragraphs, but cannot listen to simple doctrine.

It's understandable that you would think that the Prophet is directed by Jesus Christ himself, implying that the President of the Church meets with Jesus first hand and in person regularly and gets special instruction from him regarding what to tell us. I used to believe that too...

However, If you believe the Prophets themselves, you have to realize that they don't meet with Christ and very few have ever seen him in vision. Take the words of President Hinckly for example, who said,

"Revelation no longer comes by vision," Mr. Hinckley said, "but in the 'still, small voice,' like that heard by Elijah." "We wrestle with a problem, we discuss it, we think about it, we pray about it," he said... "And the answer comes in a remarkable and wonderful way." (Washington Times, Dec. 3, 1996, page A8)

That is how the Lord leads the church today. And that is exactly how it was done in the primitive church.

Acts 1:1-2 - The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

They experience the same spirit of revelation that we have access to in our callings and day to day lives. You can read all about this in the thread, "How the Lord Leads His Church Today..."

Here is a short quote from me in that thread, I suggest that you read it and see all the many quotes and references for yourself if you really want to see how the Lord leads the church today. For example, the revelation to stop polygamy and give blacks the priesthood...Did you know that we have eye witness accounts of how those major decisions were made and Jesus was only present vicariously through the Holy Ghost just as if a Stake President was calling a new Bishop. Take a look and comment and see it the church is led the way you thought.

I know some people will say, “No they talk with Christ face to face and Christ tells them what to do.” That is a nice idea, and I will admit that some have seen Christ, not all, and I would even venture to say not the majority.
...
If Christ lead the church himself, in the resurrected flesh or even by visions, then we would assume that all of the Presidents of the church would have seen him at some point or perhaps even regularly. Although some leaders have seen Christ, not all of them have. This is a testimony of personal preparedness more than position, especially in light of the fact that many members of the church have seen Christ without being called to high leadership positions in the Church.

Consider the following examples of Presidents of the church who had never seen Christ.

The following letter was written by President Heber J. Grant to his sister 13 April 1926. (Grant succeeded Joseph F. Smith as president of the LDS Church in November 1918. He had been the Prophet/president of the church for 8 years.)

Dear Sister:

Answering your letter of the 12th.

I know of no instance where the Lord has appeared to an individual since His appearance to the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Sincerely your brother,

[signed] Heber J. Grant
- Lester Bush’s papers at the UU
- http://bycommonconsent.com/2008/02/23/a ... ng-letter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

After nearly 24 years as President of the church President Grant tells us in General Conference address in 1942:

"I have never prayed to see the Savoior, … I have seen so many men fall because of some great manifestations to them.”

President Grant indicates that having such great manifestations might cause us to fall. As if he as the President of the Church might fall by having such an experience… This is an odd idea because what he is saying is that those who have such experiences “fall” and those who don’t remain grounded in the church. If the church cannot bring us to have those experiences, then it isn’t doing its job of bringing souls to Christ. And if those who do come to Christ fall away from the church, then maybe the problem isn’t with those who are speaking to God directly, maybe the problem is somewhere else. Joseph “Fell” from Christianity too, but I don’t think the problem is with him…

Now, I speak from personal experience having been in the presence of Christ myself. I have felt of his unfathomable love and acceptance. I have been held in his arms. I was healed by him. I know the reality of Christ firsthand and give my witness that Christ lives and loves. I have more than a witness from the Holy Ghost. I say emphatically that there IS a more powerful witness than the Holy Ghost and ANYONE who says that the Holy Ghost is the most powerful witness has not stood in the presence of Christ or God. I have experienced the presence of the Holy Ghost and I have experienced the presence of Christ and the latter pales the former like the Sun does the stars! There is no comparison. I have asked a number of people who have seen Christ if they could ever say that the Holy Ghost was a greater witness or even an equal witness and they all laugh as it seems so ridicules to compare the still small voice with the majesty and glory of God. It just isn’t on the same scale…

Anyway, back to how Christ leads the church…

President George Albert Smith was the next Prophet/President of the church starting May 21, 1945. After serving as the President of the Church for nearly 5 years, he wrote the following on March 25, 1950:

"I have not seen the Father or the Son, neither have I heard their voices in an audible way, but I have felt their presence and have enjoyed the whispering of the Still Small Voice that comes from them, the result of which has given me a testimony of the truth." - "The Vocation of David Wright: An Essay in Analytic Biography1" by Bruce W. Jorgensen in Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Vol. 11, No. 2 Summer 1978, p. 48-49[

The sixth president of the LDS Church testified under oath before Congress that he, as prophet of the Church, has not received any revelations and that he only gets impressions from God the same as any good Methodist would get. I think that he didn’t understand what he was talking about because we receive revelations all the time and just don’t acknowledge them as coming from God…(So he must have had revelations…)

The actual dialogue:

"Senator Dubios: Have you received any revelations from God, which has been submitted by you and the apostles to the body of the church in their semiannual conference, which revelation has been sustained by that conference, through the upholding of their hands?

Mr. Smith: Since when?

Senator Dubios: Since you became President of the Church.

Mr. Smith: NO, SIR; NONE WHATEVER.

Senator Dubios: Have you received any individual revelations yourself, since you became President of the church under your own definition, even, of a revelation?

Mr. Smith: I CANNOT SAY THAT I HAVE.

Senator Dubois: Can you say that you have not?

Mr. Smith: No; I cannot say that I have not.

Senator Dubois: Then you do not know whether you have received any such revelation as you have described or whether you have not?

Mr. Smith: Well, I can say this: That if I live as I should in the line of my duties, I AM SUSCEPTIBLE, I THINK, of the impressions of the Spirit of the Lord upon my mind at any time, JUST AS ANY GOOD METHODIST or any other good church member might be. And so far as that is concerned, I say yes; I have had impressions of the Spirit upon my mind very frequently, but they ARE NOT IN THE SENSE OF REVELATIONS." (Reed Smoot Case, Vol. 1, pages 483-484).

On page 99 of the same volume Joseph F. Smith stated:
'I have NEVER PRETENDED TO NOR DO I PROFESS TO HAVE RECEIVED REVELATIONS.'

Now, I really wish that the Presidents of the church were best buddies with Christ and saw him every day like you say, in direct contact with Him. But that isn't the case and they tell us that, but we don't listen because we don't want to hear it. We want to believe in the fantasy or the lie. Clearly being the Prophet of the Church by position does not give someone a special advantage or connection to God. We all have to do the work to part the veil equally. It isn't a right of position. The good side about that is that any member of the Church can part the veil for themselves. If they will focus on the right work or they are wasting their time. I recommend reading the thread, "The Fastest Way to Make Your Calling and Election Sure" for a discussion on that by people who have actually done it.

Oh, and while we're at it, we might as well throw in the topic How the Lord calls Prophets and Apostles today...

Peace,
Amonhi

The prophets testify of Christ. Follow them!

In so teaching, Jesus often established his own identity,6 then the identity of his followers. I quote his words to the people of ancient America. He said, “I am Jesus Christ, the Son of God.”7

“All the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after … have testified of me.

“And behold, ye are the children of the prophets; and ye are of the house of Israel; and ye are of the covenant which the Father made with your fathers, saying unto Abraham: And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

Isaiah wrote:CHRISTS DOCTRINE

3 NEPHI 11

29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.
30 Behold, this is not my doctrine, to stir up the hearts of men with anger, one against another; but this is my doctrine, that such things should be done away.