LDS Freedom Forum

Spaced_Out wrote:Matthew 16:18
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Rock of revelation to the prophet is the rock on which the church is established - if you think you have no need of a church and every man walking in his own ways will bring you closer to G_d good luck with that.
All your questions have been answered - you just refuse to accept the plain truth of the gospel and seek to justify yourself.

Doctrine and Covenants 88:35
35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

You forgot the first part of the passage...

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matt 16

Peter wasn't the prophet yet. Jesus was saying that flesh and blood hath not revealed it to Peter... It was the spirit which gives revelation. That is the rock. Anyone who has the spirit receives revelation, not just the prophet of the church.

As Joseph explained, “No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations.” That means you and me. Look at the verses that I quoted you and see if you can find a prophet or reference to a prophet in them. Even indirectly. In those quotes, he is talking about every member of the church and the basic steps, faith, repentance, baptism and all that to receive the Holy Ghost which is the revealer of truth without flesh and blood.

Peter was blessed because flesh and blood didn't reveal it to him. And so are we when we receive truth by the spirit and not by flesh and blood. On this rock He has built his church. Revelation to every member directly through the holy Ghost. All men speak in the name of the Lord, as mouth pieces, not just the Prophet... D&C 1

Peace,
Amonhi

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Ezra wrote: There is no tie to the parable of the sower of seeds here. These are members of the church who are given the priesthood and positions in the priesthood. The parable you mentioned is about people hearing the word of God as non-member/investigators and them giving place for the seed to take root before being baptized, not after receiving the priesthood by confirmation or being given positions of authority.

You are mistaken.

Peace,
Amonhi

They accept the word with gladness but when the temptations arise they fall away. Same as in Lehi's vision the ones that eat the fruit of the tree of life and then after the mocking from the large and spacious building fall away.

Most of the wards and branches of the church that I have been in there is about 30% activity - vast majority of baptized members don't stay active. If you think that section 121 refers to active church leadership that are held in good standing with the church and that they are the ones called but not chosen. That is a great misunderstanding.

/:) :)) =)) =)) =))
Are you saying that the lord is talking about all the less active priesthood holders that have fallen away from the church and yet are given a little authority? Who is giving them that authority since they left the church? Does the principle apply to all men who have authority both in and out of the church?

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Do you think that the Lord is telling the less actives that they need to be sure to not go around influencing others by virtue of their priesthood and instead they are encouraged to persuade people to their views using the righteous principles of the heaven? Is that a big problem where you are from?

Do you really think that the Lord is telling the less actives to watch out because if they "exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness" it grieves the spirit and they don't want to do that because if they do that, it will withdrawn from them, "and when it is withdrawn, Amen to your priesthood or the authority." =))

Even if the Lord was warning the less actives that if they exercise unrighteous dominion they will lose the spirit and therefore their priesthood... The fact is that the statement "No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion..." applies universally to every priesthood holder. And those who attempt to use their priesthood or priesthood position to maintain influence and power over another soul are in the wrong and are exercising unrighteous dominion. At that moment, they then meet the criteria given in verses 37-38 and when they meet that criteria, then those verses now apply to them, because they say,

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

And we know from our own experience that it is VERY common in the church for a leader to assume that you must obey them, (we call it sustain them), by virtue of their priesthood or calling in the priesthood. In fact, we know it so well that very few flinch when it is suggested or taught as doctrine, (Follow thee Prophet for example). In fact, is it so common that I think "ALMOST ALL" men in the church do it as soon as they are put into authority. And that is pretty funny because the Lord himself said,

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

This absolutely applies to priesthood holders who are given authority in the church. It is not talking about less actives who have no authority, and would never think about trying to tell someone to obey them by virtue of their priesthood.

Peace,
Amonhi

Spaced_Out wrote:

Ezra wrote:The fact remains that it's God who is the one who defines who are his. And as d&c 121 33-43 points out the majority of lds are not.

It is not a fact but your blasphemous interpretation, you take it upon yourself to judge the majority of the LDS - we will talk again at the day of judgement.

G_d has called his great and noble ones and set them as prophets to guide his church in the last days, to think otherwise is apostasy, going against His (Jesus) anointed, called and chosen Apostles.

Section 121 33-43 can be likened unto the parable of the sower who sowed seeds - some fell on stony ground and when the sun came up burnt them for they had no root and they left the church and fought against the apostles. To say it is the prophets who are no stony ground with no root -??? - judgement time.

D&c 121 33-43 are not my words but his. He is the one who said many lds are called few are chosen. Verse 38 says that if they are not chosen they fight against him. If you disagree you need to take it up with him not call me blasphemous for pointing it out.

Spaced_Out wrote:

Ezra wrote:The fact remains that it's God who is the one who defines who are his. And as d&c 121 33-43 points out the majority of lds are not.

It is not a fact but your blasphemous interpretation, you take it upon yourself to judge the majority of the LDS - we will talk again at the day of judgement.

G_d has called his great and noble ones and set them as prophets to guide his church in the last days, to think otherwise is apostasy, going against His (Jesus) anointed, called and chosen Apostles.

Section 121 33-43 can be likened unto the parable of the sower who sowed seeds - some fell on stony ground and when the sun came up burnt them for they had no root and they left the church and fought against the apostles. To say it is the prophets who are no stony ground with no root -??? - judgement time.

Lets hear from some of you smart scholars your lofty explanation of these scriptures below :

We need to WAKE UP ! Our house is on FIRE !!!
Yes - It's time for us to wake up ! WAKE UP !

2 Nephi 1:13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

2 Nephi 28:21,24,25
21 And others will he pacify,
and lull them away into carnal security,
that they will say: All is well in Zion;
yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls,
and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

Actually APOSTASY is what we are in - "to think otherwise is" to continue to be blind to our scriptures and to the SAD condition we are in. - Isaiah 29:9,10 13,14
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

EVERYWHERE in our scriptures it foretells and shows how we would fail to live up to having the restored gospel, and are now in Apostasy and forfeiting our blessings back to them - ( the House of Israel), just like they did when it came to us.
That's why we have their book. The Lord had to give us the same chance that he gave them (H of I), but in spite of having been given their book of warning to us,
(the Book of Mormon) and heed it, we have become like they, full of pride and
think we are the Lord's chosen and can do no wrong, just because we have the restored gospel.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the @#$ its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.
------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 24:5
5 "The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants:
they have transgressed the laws,
changed the ordinances, set at nought the ancient covenant."

explanation:
"Causing these curses is the wickedness of Jehovah’s people, who have altered his “ordinances” or “ritual” and perverted his “laws” or “doctrine” , thereby violating Jehovah’s covenant and rendering it void. Jehovah’s servant, who personifies Jehovah’s covenant (Isaiah 42:6; 49:8), they likewise set at nought (Isaiah 49:7; 50:5-11; 52:14)."
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Question - If the holy church spoken of in Mormon 8:38
is not our church, then what church is it ?
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Please read ALL of Mormon Chapter 8
-------------------------------------------------
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon is speaking to us today.

I think we need to look at verses 23 and 26
23 "even from the dust will they cry"
26 "for out of the earth shall they come"
"and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead."
These verses sound like to me they are referring to
none other than the book these are in,
and the person who is speaking to us
who's it (the book) is named after,
the coming forth of the "The Book of Mormon".
And even if they are not; ALL the scriptures after that,
verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

I believe these verses are talking about everyone in this "choice land"
of America and especially for the church and it's members.
Interesting why the word "teachers" is used in the same verse
just before he says "who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? "
What other holy church of God is in the world today ?
I believe the only holy church of God this could be is none other than
our church today.
-------------------------------------------------
Someone made this comment some time ago.

Mormons today dwindle in unbelief. There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people and therefore unavoidably in the right way. So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days, we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves. Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom. Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted warning those who will never read the book.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Why as members do we always feel that
the sun revolves around us.
Just because we have the restored gospel.
That, just as the children of Abraham said:
"we are the children of Abraham that God
has covenanted with and that he would bless
his seed forever."
Us members say -
"We have the restored gospel and it will
never be taken from the earth again."

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
9 And think not to say within yourselves,
We have Abraham to our father:
for I say unto you, that God is able
of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

It won't be taken from the earth again.
The Lord will take it FROM us.

Isaiah 49:3 1 Nephi 21:3
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant,
O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel

"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."
3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,

I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:2 the people "walking in darkness"
(without revelation) refers to the church today.
"Land of the shadow of death" is the U.S.
after the invasion by the beast.

9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light:
they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

Now if the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

Isaiah28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower,
which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!"

Salt Lake City is a "fat valley" if I've ever seen one.
It is very sobering to wake up and find the sad condition we are in.
---------------------------------------------------
If these scriptures aren't for us; referring to the church today,
how do you account for D&C 103: 15-18

Are you ready for the reenactment of Egypt ?
These things are sad, but TRUE !

We WILL be in bondage.

D&C 103

15 "Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These scriptures below show that we WILL be
swept off this land because of the iniquity of the children.

B of M
Ether 2:11,12)
11 “And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God – that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.”

(Ether 2:9,10)
9 “And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.
10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it
shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God.
And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”

Ether says three times "swept off",
but the last time he says it, he says it like it will happen.
"And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”

Serve God or be swept off this "Choice Land" !
Where much is given, much is required.
Have we lived up to the lease of the land ? NO !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 Nephi 21
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
---------------------------------------------------------
"And upon my house shall it begin"
D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Very few members will be left after the cleansing
and will be (allowed) to "assist" the remnants of Jacob,
and House of Israel who's land this has been given to;
to build the New Jerusalem and be numbered with them.

Isaiah wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Ezra wrote:The fact remains that it's God who is the one who defines who are his. And as d&c 121 33-43 points out the majority of lds are not.

It is not a fact but your blasphemous interpretation, you take it upon yourself to judge the majority of the LDS - we will talk again at the day of judgement.

G_d has called his great and noble ones and set them as prophets to guide his church in the last days, to think otherwise is apostasy, going against His (Jesus) anointed, called and chosen Apostles.

Section 121 33-43 can be likened unto the parable of the sower who sowed seeds - some fell on stony ground and when the sun came up burnt them for they had no root and they left the church and fought against the apostles. To say it is the prophets who are no stony ground with no root -??? - judgement time.

Lets hear from some of you smart scholars your lofty explanation of these scriptures below :

We need to WAKE UP ! Our house is on FIRE !!!
Yes - It's time for us to wake up ! WAKE UP !

2 Nephi 1:13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

2 Nephi 28:21,24,25
21 And others will he pacify,
and lull them away into carnal security,
that they will say: All is well in Zion;
yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls,
and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

Actually APOSTASY is what we are in - "to think otherwise is" to continue to be blind to our scriptures and to the SAD condition we are in. - Isaiah 29:9,10 13,14
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

EVERYWHERE in our scriptures it foretells and shows how we would fail to live up to having the restored gospel, and are now in Apostasy and forfeiting our blessings back to them - ( the House of Israel), just like they did when it came to us.
That's why we have their book. The Lord had to give us the same chance that he gave them (H of I), but in spite of have been given their book of warning to us,
(the Book of Mormon) and heed it, we have become like they, full of pride and
think we are the Lord's chosen and can do no wrong, just because we have the restored gospel.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.
------------------------------------------------------------
Question - If the holy church spoken of in Mormon 8:38
is not our church, then what church is it ?
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Please read ALL of Mormon Chapter 8
-------------------------------------------------
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon is speaking to us today.

I think we need to look at verses 23 and 26
23 "even from the dust will they cry"
26 "for out of the earth shall they come"
"and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead."
These verses sound like to me they are referring to
none other than the book these are in,
and the person who is speaking to us
who's it (the book) is named after,
the coming forth of the "The Book of Mormon".
And even if they are not; ALL the scriptures after that,
verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

I believe these verses are talking about everyone in this "choice land"
of America and especially for the church and it's members.
Interesting why the word "teachers" is used in the same verse
just before he says "who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? "
What other holy church of God is in the world today ?
I believe the only holy church of God this could be is none other than
our church today.
-------------------------------------------------
Someone made this comment some time ago.

Mormons today dwindle in unbelief. There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people and therefore unavoidably in the right way. So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days, we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves. Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom. Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted warning those who will never read the book.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Why as members do we always feel that
the sun revolves around us.
Just because we have the restored gospel.
That, just as the children of Abraham said:
"we are the children of Abraham that God
has covenanted with and that he would bless
his seed forever."
Us members say -
"We have the restored gospel and it will
never be taken from the earth again."

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
9 And think not to say within yourselves,
We have Abraham to our father:
for I say unto you, that God is able
of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

It won't be taken from the earth again.
The Lord will take it FROM us.

Isaiah 49:3 1 Nephi 21:3
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant,
O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel

"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."
3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,

I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:2 the people "walking in darkness"
(without revelation) refers to the church today.
"Land of the shadow of death" is the U.S.
after the invasion by the beast.

9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light:
they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

Now if the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

Isaiah28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower,
which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!"

Salt Lake City is a "fat valley" if I've ever seen one.
It is very sobering to wake up and find the sad condition we are in.
---------------------------------------------------
If these scriptures aren't for us; referring to the church today,
how do you account for D&C 103: 15-18

Are you ready for the reenactment of Egypt ?
These things are sad, but TRUE !

We WILL be in bondage.

D&C 103

15 "Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These scriptures below show that we WILL be
swept off this land because of the iniquity of the children.

B of M
Ether 2:11,12)
11 “And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God – that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.”

(Ether 2:9,10)
9 “And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.
10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it
shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God.
And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”

Ether says three times "swept off",
but the last time he says it, he says it like it will happen.
"And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”

Serve God or be swept off this "Choice Land" !
Where much is given, much is required.
Have we lived up to the lease of the land ? NO !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 Nephi 21
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
---------------------------------------------------------
"And upon my house shall it begin"
D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Very few members will be left after the cleansing
and will be (allowed) to "assist" the remnants of Jacob,
and House of Israel who's land this has been given to;
to build the New Jerusalem and be numbered with them.

You are on the wrong forum Isaiah. It is clear you have not read the rules of the forum. You continue to violate them in almost every post you make. This from the forums administrator:

"What this forum is not. It is not an anti-Mormon/anti-LDS forum, not a Denver Snuffer forum, not a forum for any ‘remnant’ or LDS offshoot communities/movements/groups, not a RLDS or FLDS forum, and not a forum for being bitter and critical of LDS Church leaders."

You have an agenda. It is to criticize and demean the LDS church and its leadership in every way you can. Your anti LDS theme should NOT be welcome on this forum. Please go to another forum to spew your incessant attacks against the LDS faith. There are many out there who would love to hear from you. =;

A lot of misapplication/misinterpretation of scripture on this site lately.

Mark wrote:

Isaiah wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Ezra wrote:The fact remains that it's God who is the one who defines who are his. And as d&c 121 33-43 points out the majority of lds are not.

It is not a fact but your blasphemous interpretation, you take it upon yourself to judge the majority of the LDS - we will talk again at the day of judgement.

G_d has called his great and noble ones and set them as prophets to guide his church in the last days, to think otherwise is apostasy, going against His (Jesus) anointed, called and chosen Apostles.

Section 121 33-43 can be likened unto the parable of the sower who sowed seeds - some fell on stony ground and when the sun came up burnt them for they had no root and they left the church and fought against the apostles. To say it is the prophets who are no stony ground with no root -??? - judgement time.

Lets hear from some of you smart scholars your lofty explanation of these scriptures below :

We need to WAKE UP ! Our house is on FIRE !!!
Yes - It's time for us to wake up ! WAKE UP !

2 Nephi 1:13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

2 Nephi 28:21,24,25
21 And others will he pacify,
and lull them away into carnal security,
that they will say: All is well in Zion;
yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls,
and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

Actually APOSTASY is what we are in - "to think otherwise is" to continue to be blind to our scriptures and to the SAD condition we are in. - Isaiah 29:9,10 13,14
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

EVERYWHERE in our scriptures it foretells and shows how we would fail to live up to having the restored gospel, and are now in Apostasy and forfeiting our blessings back to them - ( the House of Israel), just like they did when it came to us.
That's why we have their book. The Lord had to give us the same chance that he gave them (H of I), but in spite of have been given their book of warning to us,
(the Book of Mormon) and heed it, we have become like they, full of pride and
think we are the Lord's chosen and can do no wrong, just because we have the restored gospel.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.
------------------------------------------------------------
Question - If the holy church spoken of in Mormon 8:38
is not our church, then what church is it ?
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Please read ALL of Mormon Chapter 8
-------------------------------------------------
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon is speaking to us today.

I think we need to look at verses 23 and 26
23 "even from the dust will they cry"
26 "for out of the earth shall they come"
"and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead."
These verses sound like to me they are referring to
none other than the book these are in,
and the person who is speaking to us
who's it (the book) is named after,
the coming forth of the "The Book of Mormon".
And even if they are not; ALL the scriptures after that,
verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

I believe these verses are talking about everyone in this "choice land"
of America and especially for the church and it's members.
Interesting why the word "teachers" is used in the same verse
just before he says "who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? "
What other holy church of God is in the world today ?
I believe the only holy church of God this could be is none other than
our church today.
-------------------------------------------------
Someone made this comment some time ago.

Mormons today dwindle in unbelief. There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people and therefore unavoidably in the right way. So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days, we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves. Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom. Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted warning those who will never read the book.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Why as members do we always feel that
the sun revolves around us.
Just because we have the restored gospel.
That, just as the children of Abraham said:
"we are the children of Abraham that God
has covenanted with and that he would bless
his seed forever."
Us members say -
"We have the restored gospel and it will
never be taken from the earth again."

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
9 And think not to say within yourselves,
We have Abraham to our father:
for I say unto you, that God is able
of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

It won't be taken from the earth again.
The Lord will take it FROM us.

Isaiah 49:3 1 Nephi 21:3
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant,
O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel

"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."
3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,

I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isaiah 9:2 the people "walking in darkness"
(without revelation) refers to the church today.
"Land of the shadow of death" is the U.S.
after the invasion by the beast.

9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light:
they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

Now if the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

Isaiah28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower,
which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!"

Salt Lake City is a "fat valley" if I've ever seen one.
It is very sobering to wake up and find the sad condition we are in.
---------------------------------------------------
If these scriptures aren't for us; referring to the church today,
how do you account for D&C 103: 15-18

Are you ready for the reenactment of Egypt ?
These things are sad, but TRUE !

We WILL be in bondage.

D&C 103

15 "Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These scriptures below show that we WILL be
swept off this land because of the iniquity of the children.

B of M
Ether 2:11,12)
11 “And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God – that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.”

(Ether 2:9,10)
9 “And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.
10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it
shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God.
And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”

Ether says three times "swept off",
but the last time he says it, he says it like it will happen.
"And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”

Serve God or be swept off this "Choice Land" !
Where much is given, much is required.
Have we lived up to the lease of the land ? NO !

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3 Nephi 21
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
---------------------------------------------------------
"And upon my house shall it begin"
D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Very few members will be left after the cleansing
and will be (allowed) to "assist" the remnants of Jacob,
and House of Israel who's land this has been given to;
to build the New Jerusalem and be numbered with them.

You are on the wrong forum Isaiah. It is clear you have not read the rules of the forum. You continue to violate them in almost every post you make. This from the forums administrator:

"What this forum is not. It is not an anti-Mormon/anti-LDS forum, not a Denver Snuffer forum, not a forum for any ‘remnant’ or LDS offshoot communities/movements/groups, not a RLDS or FLDS forum, and not a forum for being bitter and critical of LDS Church leaders."

You have an agenda. It is to criticize and demean the LDS church and its leadership in every way you can. Your anti LDS theme should NOT be welcome on this forum. Please go to another forum to spew your incessant attacks against the LDS faith. There are many out there who would love to hear from you. =;

Sorry but you are wrong. I am not ANTI - Mormon, and my agenda is to find the truth in our own scriptures.
Interesting HOW quoting our own scriptures of our church (which you fail to address) can cause such a reply

Isaiah wrote:

Mark wrote:

Isaiah wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote: It is not a fact but your blasphemous interpretation, you take it upon yourself to judge the majority of the LDS - we will talk again at the day of judgement.

G_d has called his great and noble ones and set them as prophets to guide his church in the last days, to think otherwise is apostasy, going against His (Jesus) anointed, called and chosen Apostles.

Section 121 33-43 can be likened unto the parable of the sower who sowed seeds - some fell on stony ground and when the sun came up burnt them for they had no root and they left the church and fought against the apostles. To say it is the prophets who are no stony ground with no root -??? - judgement time.

Lets hear from some of you smart scholars your lofty explanation of these scriptures below :

We need to WAKE UP ! Our house is on FIRE !!!
Yes - It's time for us to wake up ! WAKE UP !

2 Nephi 1:13
13 O that ye would awake; awake from a deep sleep, yea,
even from the sleep of hell,
and shake off the awful chains by which ye are bound,
which are the chains which bind
the children of men, that they are carried away captive down
to the eternal gulf of misery and woe.

2 Nephi 28:21,24,25
21 And others will he pacify,
and lull them away into carnal security,
that they will say: All is well in Zion;
yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—
and thus the devil cheateth their souls,
and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.
24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!
25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

Actually APOSTASY is what we are in - "to think otherwise is" to continue to be blind to our scriptures and to the SAD condition we are in. - Isaiah 29:9,10 13,14
9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.

10 For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

EVERYWHERE in our scriptures it foretells and shows how we would fail to live up to having the restored gospel, and are now in Apostasy and forfeiting our blessings back to them - ( the House of Israel), just like they did when it came to us.
That's why we have their book. The Lord had to give us the same chance that he gave them (H of I), but in spite of have been given their book of warning to us,
(the Book of Mormon) and heed it, we have become like they, full of pride and
think we are the Lord's chosen and can do no wrong, just because we have the restored gospel.

ALL THE PROPHECIES OF ISAIAH PERTAIN TO US TODAY
All prophecies in Isaiah are prophecies of the last days.

Referring to our church and the sad condition we are in,
Isaiah begins his book speaking to us,
Ephraim, or the church today.

Isaiah 1:2-5
Description of modern Ephraim
(addressing our church he calls Israel)

2 Hear, O heavens! Give heed, O earth!
Jehovah has spoken:I have reared sons,
brought them up,but they have revolted against me.
3 The ox knows its owner,the donkey its master’s stall,
but Israel does not know;my people are insensible.
4 Alas, a nation astray,a people weighed down by sin,
the offspring of wrongdoers,perverse children:
they have forsaken Jehovah,they have spurned
the Holy One of Israel,they have lapsed into APOSTASY.
------------------------------------------------------------
Question - If the holy church spoken of in Mormon 8:38
is not our church, then what church is it ?
Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon 8:38
38 O ye pollutions, ye hypocrites, ye teachers, who sell yourselves for that which will canker, why have ye polluted the holy church of God? Why are ye ashamed to take upon you the name of Christ? Why do ye not think that greater is the value of an endless happiness than that misery which never dies—because of the praise of the world?

Please read ALL of Mormon Chapter 8
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Mormon 8:35
"Behold, I speak unto you as if ye were present, and yet ye are not.
But behold, Jesus Christ hath shown you unto me, and I know your doing."

Mormon is speaking to us today.

I think we need to look at verses 23 and 26
23 "even from the dust will they cry"
26 "for out of the earth shall they come"
"and it shall come even as if one should speak from the dead."
These verses sound like to me they are referring to
none other than the book these are in,
and the person who is speaking to us
who's it (the book) is named after,
the coming forth of the "The Book of Mormon".
And even if they are not; ALL the scriptures after that,
verses 27 to the end are talking about the last days. our days NOW.

I believe these verses are talking about everyone in this "choice land"
of America and especially for the church and it's members.
Interesting why the word "teachers" is used in the same verse
just before he says "who sell yourselves for that which will canker,
why have ye polluted the holy church of God? "
What other holy church of God is in the world today ?
I believe the only holy church of God this could be is none other than
our church today.
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Someone made this comment some time ago.

Mormons today dwindle in unbelief. There is a pervasive belief among us that we are God's chosen people and therefore unavoidably in the right way. So when we read the BOM giving desperate warnings about the churches in the last days, we automatically assume those warnings apply to all churches but our own.
We tend to apply the most important lessons of the book to everyone else but ourselves. Its a great example of standing on the rameumptom. Read Alma Chapter 31. Its a story of who?... That's right... The Mormons.

You would think that it would be odd to the Mormons that so much effort was wasted warning those who will never read the book.
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Why as members do we always feel that
the sun revolves around us.
Just because we have the restored gospel.
That, just as the children of Abraham said:
"we are the children of Abraham that God
has covenanted with and that he would bless
his seed forever."
Us members say -
"We have the restored gospel and it will
never be taken from the earth again."

Matthew 3:9 (KJV)
9 And think not to say within yourselves,
We have Abraham to our father:
for I say unto you, that God is able
of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

It won't be taken from the earth again.
The Lord will take it FROM us.

Isaiah 49:3 1 Nephi 21:3
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant,
O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel

"I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them."
3 Nephi 16:10,11,12
10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father,

I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
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Isaiah 9:2 the people "walking in darkness"
(without revelation) refers to the church today.
"Land of the shadow of death" is the U.S.
after the invasion by the beast.

9:2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light:
they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death,
upon them hath the light shined.
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Did you realize that in the 29th chapter of Isaiah he describes the coming forth
of the original plates of the Book of Mormon and the attitude
of the people against it.

taken from: LDS Seminary Student Study Guide

"Isaiah 29 is one place in the Bible where the Book of Mormon is referred to, even though it is not mentioned by name.
As you read this chapter, look for prophecies of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and the impact this book will have on the world."

Now if the 29th Chapter of Isaiah refers to our people and nation,
then it is very feasible that the 28th chapter may also refer to us.
If you want a big wake up call please read it !
If you study this 28th chapter of Isaiah
it will reveal that every word applies to our church in these days
and to no other people.
Isaiah cites that this people would be given "precept upon precept;
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little and there a little."
These identical words, were used by the Prophet Joseph Smith among his closing instructions
to the latter day saints, warning us to go forward not backward. D.C.128:21-22 ; 2Nephi 28:30

Isaiah 28:13 "But the word of the Lord was unto them
precept upon precept, precept upon precept;
line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little;
that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,
and snared, and taken."

We are still satisfied with the ABC portions of the gospel.
We will not accept the meat portions of the gospel.

Isaiah 28:
9 Whom shall he give instruction?
Whom shall he enlighten with revelation?
Weanlings weaned from milk,those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is but line upon line, line upon line,precept upon precept,
precept upon precept;a trifle here, a trifle there.

Isaiah28:1 "Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower,
which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!"

Salt Lake City is a "fat valley" if I've ever seen one.
It is very sobering to wake up and find the sad condition we are in.
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If these scriptures aren't for us; referring to the church today,
how do you account for D&C 103: 15-18

Are you ready for the reenactment of Egypt ?
These things are sad, but TRUE !

We WILL be in bondage.

D&C 103

15 "Behold, I say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power;

16 Therefore, I will raise up unto my people a man, who shall lead them like as Moses led the children of Israel.

17 For ye are the children of Israel, and of the seed of Abraham, and ye must needs be led out of bondage by power, and with a stretched-out arm.

18 And as your fathers were led at the first, even so shall the redemption of Zion be."
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These scriptures below show that we WILL be
swept off this land because of the iniquity of the children.

B of M
Ether 2:11,12)
11 “And this cometh unto you, O ye Gentiles, that ye may know the decrees of God – that ye may repent, and not continue in your iniquities until the fulness come, that ye may not bring down the fulness of the wrath of God upon you as the inhabitants of the land have hitherto done.
12 Behold, this is a choice land, and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall be free from bondage, and from captivity, and from all other nations under heaven, if they will but serve the God of the land, who is Jesus Christ, who hath been manifested by the things which we have written.”

(Ether 2:9,10)
9 “And now, we can behold the decrees of God concerning this land, that it is a land of promise; and whatsoever nation shall possess it shall serve God, or they shall be swept off when the fulness of his wrath shall come upon them. And the fulness of his wrath cometh upon them when they are ripened in iniquity.
10 For behold, this is a land which is choice above all other lands; wherefore he that doth possess it
shall serve God or shall be swept off; for it is the everlasting decree of God.
And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”

Ether says three times "swept off",
but the last time he says it, he says it like it will happen.
"And it is not until the fulness of iniquity among the children of the land, that they are swept off.”

Serve God or be swept off this "Choice Land" !
Where much is given, much is required.
Have we lived up to the lease of the land ? NO !

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3 Nephi 21
12 And my people who are a remnant of Jacob shall be among the Gentiles, yea, in the midst of them as a lion among the beasts of the forest, as a young lion among the flocks of sheep, who, if he go through both treadeth down and teareth in pieces, and none can deliver.

13 Their hand shall be lifted up upon their adversaries, and all their enemies shall be cut off.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;

17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;

18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard.
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We had our chance.
The gospel and the power and authority is now
going back to the House of Israel

D&C 45:28-31
28 And when the times of the Gentiles is come in, a light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of my gospel;

29 BUT THEY RECEIVE IT NOT;
for they perceive not the light, and they turn their hearts from me because of the precepts of men.

30 And in that generation shall the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

31 And there shall be men standing in that generation, that shall not pass until they shall see an overflowing scourge; for a desolating sickness shall cover the land.
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"And upon my house shall it begin"
D&C 112:24-26
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;

26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Very few members will be left after the cleansing
and will be (allowed) to "assist" the remnants of Jacob,
and House of Israel who's land this has been given to;
to build the New Jerusalem and be numbered with them.

You are on the wrong forum Isaiah. It is clear you have not read the rules of the forum. You continue to violate them in almost every post you make. This from the forums administrator:

"What this forum is not. It is not an anti-Mormon/anti-LDS forum, not a Denver Snuffer forum, not a forum for any ‘remnant’ or LDS offshoot communities/movements/groups, not a RLDS or FLDS forum, and not a forum for being bitter and critical of LDS Church leaders."

You have an agenda. It is to criticize and demean the LDS church and its leadership in every way you can. Your anti LDS theme should NOT be welcome on this forum. Please go to another forum to spew your incessant attacks against the LDS faith. There are many out there who would love to hear from you. =;

Sorry but you are wrong. I am not ANTI - Mormon, and my agenda is to find the truth in our own scriptures.
Interesting HOW quoting our own scriptures of our church (which you fail to address) can cause such a reply

See shadows comment above. You epitomize it.

freedomforall wrote:someone-on-the-internet-is-wrong.jpg

Which means someone is right. Is it me??

I haven't got time to read all of the comments on this thread but I really am quite surprised that such a simple subject can get so out of hand with so many different interpretations on prophets, only following Christ, etc, especially when God has called prophets throughout the OT and prophets are mentioned in the NT including 2 prophets who will be at the battle of Armageddon. I feel I really have to ask those who seem to be unable to comprehend why we have a prophet, why do you think we have a prophet?

Amonhi wrote: Are you saying that the lord is talking about all the less active priesthood holders that have fallen away from the church and yet are given a little authority? Who is giving them that authority since they left the church? Does the principle apply to all men who have authority both in and out of the church?

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Peace,
Amonhi

They had authority prior to leaving the church, but due to disobedience and the issues section 121 is addressing they left the church. It is a natural separation those that cant keep the standards of the church usually leave on their own accord. It is not very hard to understand.

Isaiah wrote: Lets hear from some of you smart scholars your lofty explanation of these scriptures below :

We need to WAKE UP ! Our house is on FIRE !!!
Yes - It's time for us to wake up ! WAKE UP !

No the church is not on fire, the scriptures are talking about individual apostasy. That is why we have living prophets to tell us what we need to do and what is G_d will for us. The only waking up that needs to be done is people need to heed the words of the living mouth piece of the lord ie, the prophet.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:30
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

Doctrine and Covenants 124
6 For, behold, I am about to call upon them to give heed to the light and glory of Zion, for the set time has come to favor her.

The church is growing and going from strength to strength it is not the works of mans hands but the rock cut out of the mountain without hands that is roiling forth in strength and covering the entire earth. Truly the great work of G_d that he has accomplished through is Prophets and the members being obedient to them, as prophecies by Daniel - what you are imply is the prophecy has failed and G_d has failed and allowed his church to fail. Simply not true.

mhewett wrote:I haven't got time to read all of the comments on this thread but I really am quite surprised that such a simple subject can get so out of hand with so many different interpretations on prophets, only following Christ, etc, especially when God has called prophets throughout the OT and prophets are mentioned in the NT including 2 prophets who will be at the battle of Armageddon. I feel I really have to ask those who seem to be unable to comprehend why we have a prophet, why do you think we have a prophet?

The definition of a prophet has been lost to the LDS Church. We think that a prophet is one of the 15 men that lead the church. We think that prophets are only prophets because they have been called to a position of prophet. But this has never been the case throughout the scriptures nor the early church in this dispensation. The modern LDS view of a prophet is skewed and in error.

A prophet according to the scriptures and as taught by Joseph Smith is, by its basic definition, ANYONE who has a testimony of Jesus Christ by the Holy Ghost. And more accurately, anyone who has the gift of the Holy Ghost and speaks with the tongue of angels is a prophet because they speak the words of Christ. But they are only acting as a prophet when they are speaking the words of Christ as inspired by the Holy Ghost. In a perfect world, every member of the LDS church is given the gift of the Holy Ghost and so should be a prophet. Here are some of the quotes and references that show this without a doubt...If you believe the prophet Joseph Smith was a prophet and was qualified to define what a prophet was, then believe him and change your definition of a prophet to match his... Each of these quotes by Joseph Smith were given on separate occasions.

Common answers to sundry questions:
"Fifth--"Do you believe Joseph Smith, Jun., to be a Prophet?"
"Yes, and every other man who has the testimony of Jesus. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.--Revelation, 19:10th verse." - Section Three 1838-39, p.119

"Salvation cannot come without revelation; it is in vain for anyone to minister without it. No man is a minister of Jesus Christ without being a Prophet. No man can be a minister of Jesus Christ except he has the testimony of Jesus; and this is the spirit of prophecy. Whenever salvation has been administered, it has been by testimony. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this." - Section Four 1839-42, p.160

“If any person should ask me if I were a prophet, I should not deny it, as that would give me the lie; for, according to John, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; therefore, if I profess to be a witness or teacher, and have not the spirit of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus, I must be a false witness; but if I be a true teacher and witness, I must possess the spirit of prophecy, and that constitutes a prophet; and any man who says he is a teacher or a preacher of righteousness, and denies the spirit of prophecy, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; and by this key false teachers and impostors may be detected.” (Dec. 30, 1842.) DHC 5:215-216. - TPJS Section Five 1842-43, p.269

(Think of Missionaries)"Faith comes by hearing the word of god, through the testimony of the servants of God; that testimony is always attended by the Spirit of prophecy and revelation." - Section Three 1838-39, p.148

Joseph Smith said that anyone who has a testimony of Jesus Christ has the spirit of prophecy. He learned that from Revelations 19:10 which says,

“And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellow servant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” - Rev. 19:10

Here is a book of Mormon verse that supports this definition...

Here is a Book of Mormon quote making a similar connection:
“And Alma went and began to declare the word of God unto the church which was established in the valley of Gideon, according to the revelation of the truth of the word which had been spoken by his fathers, and according to the spirit of prophecy which was in him, according to the testimony of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who should come to redeem his people from their sins, and the holy order by which he was called. And thus it is written. Amen.” - Alma 6:8

In their book, "The Unspeakable Gift of the Holy Ghost", Elliaison explains,

The reason that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy is because we receive a testimony by the same means that we receive prophecies. If we have not received a testimony of Christ, then we do not know the method by which we receive prophecies. Because all prophecies are received via the same experience as gaining a testimony, if we have gained a testimony of Christ, we have experienced the spirit of prophecy.

That was Joseph's definition of a prophet and the foundation on which he claimed to be a prophet. He believed and taught accordingly. But what of the scriptures, are there other references that tell us that prophets are those who teach what they learn by the witness of the Holy Ghost? Of course... Here are a few...

“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” - 2 Pet. 1:21

“And I, Nephi, said unto them: Behold they were manifest unto the prophet by the voice of the Spirit; for by the Spirit are all things made known unto the prophets, which shall come upon the children of men according to the flesh.” - 1 Nephi 22:2

Moses 6:8
8 Now this prophecy Adam spake, as he was moved upon by the Holy Ghost, and a genealogy was kept of the children of God. And this was the book of the generations of Adam, saying: In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

Doctrine and Covenants 20:26
26 Not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, in the flesh, but all those from the beginning, even as many as were before he came, who believed in the words of the holy prophets, who spake as they were inspired by the gift of the Holy Ghost, who truly testified of him in all things, should have eternal life,

Acts 28:25
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

“And moreover, I say unto you that it has thus been revealed unto me, that the words which have been spoken by our fathers are true, even so according to the spirit of prophecy which is in me, which is also by the manifestation of the Spirit of God.” - Alma 5:47

Joseph Smith—History 1:73
73 Immediately on our coming up out of the water after we had been baptized, we experienced great and glorious blessings from our Heavenly Father. No sooner had I baptized Oliver Cowdery, than the Holy Ghost fell upon him, and he stood up and prophesied many things which should shortly come to pass. And again, so soon as I had been baptized by him, I also had the spirit of prophecy, when, standing up, I prophesied concerning the rise of this Church, and many other things connected with the Church, and this generation of the children of men. We were filled with the Holy Ghost, and rejoiced in the God of our salvation.

2 Nephi 25:4
4 Wherefore, hearken, O my people, which are of the house of Israel, and give ear unto my words; for because the words of Isaiah are not plain unto you, nevertheless they are plain unto all those that are filled with the spirit of prophecy. But I give unto you a prophecy, according to the spirit which is in me; wherefore I shall prophesy according to the plainness which hath been with me from the time that I came out from Jerusalem with my father; for behold, my soul delighteth in plainness unto my people, that they may learn.

“And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him (Moses), and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp. - Numbers 11:25-26

All of the members of the church should have the gift of the Holy Ghost and the testimony of Christ and so, should be prophets.

Numbers 11:29
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; - D&C 1

“Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do.” - 2Ne. 32:2-3

Anciently, before Christ was born, a prophet was anyone who received a testimony of Christ by the Holy Ghost. Having a testimony of Christ by the Holy Ghost meant that you had received a prophecy of things to come by the power of the Holy Ghost. Today, after Christ already came, we receive a testimony of Jesus Christ in exactly he way, by the power of the Holy Ghost. But because Christ already came, and we think of prophets as prophesying future events, we do not realize that we received the spirit of prophecy regarding a past event in the same exact way that all the ancient prophets were able to prophecy of his coming in the future. This is the spirit of prophesy. If you get a similar witness from the Holy Ghost regarding your calling and election, then you have received a prophecy of your eternal state with God. If you gain a witness by the Holy Ghost that Jesus will come again, then you are a prophet and are able to prophecy by the spirit of a future event. If you receive a witness of the resurrection of the dead, or the millennium or any future event, then you are a prophet and are able to prophecy of the future just as must as Nephi did when he read Isaiah and testified as a prophet of the words of Isaiah. If you receive a witness by the spirit of something that nobody else knows, it is by revelation through the spirit and you are receiving it exactly the same way every other prophet has ever done, and you are a prophet.

The LDS church in general does not understand this. How many of you have he gift of the Holy Ghost and a testimony by the spirit of things to come and ever realized that you were a prophet of God? How many of you would feel comfortable talking in church and prophesying by the spirit of things to come as a prophet of God?

What is the role of a prophet? To testify and teach by the spirit to those who do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost who do not have access to the Lords will can prepare and also gain a testimony of what you know by the spirit and become prophets just like them.

Prophets also teach and testify by the spirit to those who do have the gift of the Holy Ghost of things they have not thought of or heard before so that they also can go to the Lord and learn for themselves by the spirit and gain their own prophecy on the topic. (Like Lehi prophesying to Nephi who then went and got his own witness of the same prophecy.)

All this is done so that some day, the prophecy and goal of the Lord will be fulfilled that all men and woman will speak in the name of the Lord as prophets. This is why Joseph Smith and others were called as prophets and received commandments from the Lord.

17 Wherefore, I the Lord, knowing the calamity which should come upon the inhabitants of the earth, called upon my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and spake unto him from heaven, and gave him commandments;
18 And also gave commandments to others, that they should proclaim these things unto the world; and all this that it might be fulfilled, which was written by the prophets—
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—
20 But that every man might speak in the name of God the Lord, even the Savior of the world; - D&C 1

This is what Joseph Smith and the scriptures clearly teach regarding what a prophet is and what the role of a Prophet is. If you believe the prophet Joseph Smith and you believe the scriptures, then become a Prophet yourself just like all the Prophets have before us, just like every member of the church should. If you are a minister in the church and teach or preach from the pulpit, or a class or as a missionary in any capacity, you must do so by the spirit. Any other way is not of God.

17 Verily I say unto you, he that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the Comforter, in the Spirit of truth, doth he preach it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
18 And if it be by some other way it is not of God. - D&C 50

Joseph Smith took this and combined it with the concept of being a prophet and concluded that if you are acting in any capacity as a teacher or a preacher or a minister at any level and you do not claim to be and accept yourself as a prophet, then the truth is not in you and you are a liar and a fraud. He said that by this key you could recognize false teachers and impostors.

“If any person should ask me if I were a prophet, I should not deny it, as that would give me the lie; for, according to John, the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy; therefore, if I profess to be a witness or teacher, and have not the spirit of prophecy, which is the testimony of Jesus, I must be a false witness; but if I be a true teacher and witness, I must possess the spirit of prophecy, and that constitutes a prophet; and any man who says he is a teacher or a preacher of righteousness, and denies the spirit of prophecy, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; and by this key false teachers and impostors may be detected.” (Dec. 30, 1842.) DHC 5:215-216. - TPJS Section Five 1842-43, p.269

Anyone that posts on this forum and presumes to teach doctrine for the Lord is either a Prophet or a liar, a false teacher and an impostor. You may be a Jonah type prophet, or a Moses type prophet, but if you have the gift of the Holy Ghost then you must be a Prophet and receive revelations.

"No man can receive the Holy Ghost without receiving revelations. The Holy Ghost is a revelator." – Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 328

I am a Prophet as much as any other. I hope all reading this can make the same claim.

That is why we have prophets.

Peace,
Amonhi

If a prophet prophesy, then ANYONE that's a servant of the Lord can be a prophet.

The Acts of the Apostles and (Joel 2:28-32)
Chapter 2

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote: Are you saying that the lord is talking about all the less active priesthood holders that have fallen away from the church and yet are given a little authority? Who is giving them that authority since they left the church? Does the principle apply to all men who have authority both in and out of the church?

39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

Peace,
Amonhi

They had authority prior to leaving the church, but due to disobedience and the issues section 121 is addressing they left the church. It is a natural separation those that cant keep the standards of the church usually leave on their own accord. It is not very hard to understand.

Are you saying that Almost 100% of the men in the church who were placed in authority left due to the issues spoken of in D&C 121?

The verses are clearly speaking of Almost ALL of the men who are given authority IMMEDIATELY begin exercising unrighteous dominion. The word immediately means that as soon as they are given the authority, as soon as they are called into positions of authority they begin exercising unrighteous dominion. As soon as they are called to be bishops, stake presidents, elders quorum presidents, district leaders, etc. they immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion and as a result, the spirit of the lord is grieved and withdraws which is what causes the Amen to their priesthood. People who leave the church the way you are describing, don't have authority or priesthood or the spirit. These verses couldn't possibly be associated with them.

I'm just not seeing it... Notice the chiasmus that begins and ends with "many are called, but few are chosen." This means that everything in between is talking about who are called but not chosen. Thy are not chosen because they do not learn this one lesson, and then he goes into the lesson they don't learn which is about the powers of heaven being tied to the priesthood and not being controlled except on principles of righteousness. He lists a few of the principles of righteousness that prevent the powers of heaven from being experienced by those who hold the priesthood and says that when the spirit withdraws, then so does your priesthood/powers of heaven. And then points out that the person who lost the spirit and with it the powers of heaven/priesthood doesn't even know it and without knowing it, they are persecuting the saints and fighting against God. Then he tells us that exercising unrighteous dominion is the nature and disposition of almost all men. And that is why they are called but not chosen...

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?
35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—
36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.
38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.
39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.
40 Hence many are called, but few are chosen. - D&C 121

The ONLY way I could see this NOT applying to the active priesthood leadership of the church is to say that the men who are currently in the positions of leadership in the church do meet any of the criteria listed in verse 37 namely, "but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness". I know for certain that almost all of the men in leadership positions do these things. Not just the two apostles who undertook to cover their sexual sins, but all those who exercise unrighteous dominion. How do I know what is considered unrighteous dominion? Because the Lord tells us in verses 41-42,

41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

Anyone who is attempting to maintain power by the virtue of their priesthood and not by persuasion is not acting in the priesthood the way the Lord instructs. They are seeking using their position to dominate others unrighteously because they are not using persuasion to maintain power or influence over others. I can tell you that I have heard Bishops say, "As far as you are concerned, I am God because God called me to be your Bishop." This is an example of using your priesthood position to dominate others. While all Bishops are not so dominating, any Bishop or Stake President that insists that you be influenced by them because they are in a position of authority over you and they don't have to persuade you, if they believe this, then they are acting in unrighteous dominion and fit the criteria given in verse 37. Because verse 38 is speaking about the people in verse 37, it is they, the priesthood leaders like this Bishop where were persecuting the saints with their unrighteous dominion. And it is also they who are fighting against God.

So, I have given you now 3 or more examples of active priesthood leaders who were acting in positions of authority that met the criteria given in verse 37. This then shows that these verses actually apply to the active priesthood holders who are serving in positions of authority within the church, not non-members or less active members. The idea that a less active member is given a position of authority and IMMEDIATELY begins to exercise unrighteous dominion is kind of silly. Why would they be given authority when they are less active?

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi wrote: So, I have given you now 3 or more examples of active priesthood leaders who were acting in positions of authority that met the criteria given in verse 37. This then shows that these verses actually apply to the active priesthood holders who are serving in positions of authority within the church, not non-members or less active members. The idea that a less active member is given a position of authority and IMMEDIATELY begins to exercise unrighteous dominion is kind of silly. Why would they be given authority when they are less active?

Peace,
Amonhi

A few exceptions is of no concern to me and it is also your judgement on them which I do not accept.

Spaced_Out wrote:

Isaiah wrote: Lets hear from some of you smart scholars your lofty explanation of these scriptures below :

We need to WAKE UP ! Our house is on FIRE !!!
Yes - It's time for us to wake up ! WAKE UP !

No the church is not on fire, the scriptures are talking about individual apostasy. That is why we have living prophets to tell us what we need to do and what is G_d will for us. The only waking up that needs to be done is people need to heed the words of the living mouth piece of the lord ie, the prophet.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:30
30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

Doctrine and Covenants 124
6 For, behold, I am about to call upon them to give heed to the light and glory of Zion, for the set time has come to favor her.

The church is growing and going from strength to strength it is not the works of mans hands but the rock cut out of the mountain without hands that is roiling forth in strength and covering the entire earth. Truly the great work of G_d that he has accomplished through is Prophets and the members being obedient to them, as prophecies by Daniel - what you are imply is the prophecy has failed and G_d has failed and allowed his church to fail. Simply not true.

You couldn't be more wrong - it's obvious that the scriptures I posted are NOT talking about individuals.
The scriptures speak for themselves - if you take the time to read them.

Isaiah wrote:If a prophet prophesy, then ANYONE that's a servant of the Lord can be a prophet.

The Acts of the Apostles and (Joel 2:28-32)
Chapter 2

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy:

Yes, that is a prophecy about our day and those who realize that they are prophets and if you looked close you will also see that there will be prophetesses too!

Oh, and just to put in the plug, these prophets and prophetesses will be speaking in the name of the Lord by His spirit and the righteous will obey them as if the Lord personally spoke just as much as we should obey when the President of the Church speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost.

One prophet speaking by the spirit has equal power and authority from God to do so as another prophet speaking by the spirit. Both are servants of the Lord and both speak for Him equally when they speak by the spirit.

Peace,
Amonhi

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote: So, I have given you now 3 or more examples of active priesthood leaders who were acting in positions of authority that met the criteria given in verse 37. This then shows that these verses actually apply to the active priesthood holders who are serving in positions of authority within the church, not non-members or less active members. The idea that a less active member is given a position of authority and IMMEDIATELY begins to exercise unrighteous dominion is kind of silly. Why would they be given authority when they are less active?

Peace,
Amonhi

A few exceptions is of no concern to me and it is also your judgement on them which I do not accept.

2 of them were judged and found guilty by the church, not me. Since the church excommunicated the 2 apostles after 8 & 18 years of hiding their sexual affairs from the prophet and their fellow apostles, I think that during the 8 and 18 years those apostles met the criteria given in those verses. Not my judgement, but the churches... You don't have to accept that either.

Peace,
Amonhi

Chapter 9

The people of Israel are taken into captivity for their sins--Ephraim will be a wanderer among the nations.

1 Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God, thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

2 The floor and the winepress shall not feed them, and the new wine shall fail in her.

3 They shall not dwell in the Lord’s land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.

4 They shall not offer wine offerings to the Lord, neither shall they be pleasing unto him: their sacrifices shall be unto them as the bread of mourners; all that eat thereof shall be polluted: for their bread for their soul shall not come into the house of the Lord.

5 What will ye do in the solemn day, and in the day of the feast of the Lord?

6 For, lo, they are gone because of destruction: Egypt shall gather them up, Memphis shall bury them: the pleasant places for their silver, nettles shall possess them: thorns shall be in their tabernacles.

7 The days of visitation are come, the days of recompence are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred.

8 The watchman of Ephraim was with my God: but the prophet is a snare of a fowler in all his ways, and hatred in the house of his God.

9 They have deeply corrupted themselves, as in the days of Gibeah: therefore he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins.

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baal-peor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.

12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!

13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

14 Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Here is the process by which One prophet (Lehi) teaches someone (Nephi) who learns from the Lord personally and becomes another prophet...

17 And it came to pass after I, Nephi, having heard all the words of my father, concerning the things which he saw in a vision, and also the things which he spake by the power of the Holy Ghost, which power he received by faith on the Son of God—and the Son of God was the Messiah who should come—I, Nephi, was desirous also that I might see, and hear, and know of these things, by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is the gift of God unto all those who diligently seek him, as well in times of old as in the time that he should manifest himself unto the children of men.

18 For he is the same yesterday, today, and forever; and the way is prepared for all men from the foundation of the world, if it so be that they repent and come unto him.

19 For he that diligently seeketh shall find; and the mysteries of God shall be unfolded unto them, by the power of the Holy Ghost, as well in these times as in times of old, and as well in times of old as in times to come; wherefore, the course of the Lord is one eternal round.
...
1 For it came to pass after I had desired to know the things that my father had seen, and believing that the Lord was able to make them known unto me, as I sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away in the Spirit of the Lord, yea, into an exceedingly high mountain, which I never had before seen, and upon which I never had before set my foot....(Great Vision)
...
(Then he speaks as a prophet and states his authority saying,)
22 And the Holy Ghost giveth authority that I should speak these things, and deny them not.

Peace,
Amonhi

Well - thanks for the post but I think this pretty much covers it all.

Be Wary of Man and His Words
Val Brinkerhoff

The Lord’s inspired servants do their best repeat God’s words as accurately as possible. They also point to Him
as the source of all light and truth. Imperfect and corrupt men, seeking the praise of the world and filthy lucre,
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. This paper addresses the false doctrine that men should be
lifted up as our source of light. Hereafter this paper is divided into three parts;
I. Statements by early LDS church leaders cautioning against putting trust in man;
II. Scriptures that support trusting God only; and
III. The misuse of God’s statement “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”

I. Early Teachings in the LDS Church about Trusting Men

Consistent with the Lord’s words and scripture, early LDS church leaders taught members to avoid trusting in
leaders, and said that to do so was to trust in “the arm of the flesh.” Apostle George Q. Cannon stated, “Do not,
brethren, put your trust in man though he be a Bishop, an apostle or a president; if you do, they will fail you at
some time or place; they will do wrong or seem to, and your support will be gone; but if we lean on God, He
will never fail us. When men and women depend upon God alone and trust in him alone, their faith will not be
shaken if the highest in the Church should step aside” (George Q. Cannon, DW 43:322 [Mar 7, 1891]).

Apostle Charles Penrose, counselor to Pres. Brigham Young stated, “Our testimony does not depend upon
Joseph Smith; it does not depend upon Brigham Young; it does not depend upon John Taylor, or upon the
council of the Twelve Apostles, which is now the presiding quorum in the Church. I pin my faith to no man’s
sleeve; I am a believer in the Scripture which says, ‘Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his
arm’” (Charles Penrose, August 17, 1879, Journal of Discourses 20:295).

According to the Lord, those that heed every word of church leaders—whether they are from the Holy Ghost or
not—are described in D&C 76 as telestial spirits. Those of a celestial nature heed the word of God. “And the
glory of the telestial is one...For these are they who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they
who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and
some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither
the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant. Last of all, these all are they who
will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes
a lie. These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth. These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal
fire. These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times,
when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet, and shall have perfected his work” (D&C 76:98-
106).

Those who follow men rather than God’s Spirit are accounted no better than liars, adulterers, and
whoremongers. Following our Lord’s word leads to the Tree of Life - eternal life. If a person focuses on a man
instead of searching for and receiving God's word in revelation and scripture, they will be damned to the telestial
kingdom.

Brigham Young stated, “Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the
influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and
pinning their faith upon another’s sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned
as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods...They never can become Gods, nor be crowned
as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in
the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who
will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right,
though all mankind besides should take the opposite course” (Brigham Young, JD 1:312).

Pres. Young added, “What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of
this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for
themselves of God whether they are led by him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security,
trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart
the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know
for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know,
themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation
continually” (Brigham Young, JD 9:150).

We are charged by God to validate the truthfulness of what church leaders say. The Holy Ghost is the only
source of truth that will never lead us astray. So said Brigham Young. “The First Presidency have of right a
great influence over this people; and if we should get out of the way and lead this people to destruction, what a
pity it would be! How can you know whether we lead you correctly or not? Can you know by any other power
than that of the Holy Ghost? I have uniformly exhorted the people to obtain this living witness, each for
themselves; then no man on earth can lead them astray” (Brigham Young, JD 6:100).

Nephi stated, “…whoso would hearken unto the word of God, and would hold fast unto it, they would never
perish; neither could the temptations and the fiery darts of the adversary overpower them unto blindness, to lead
them away to destruction” (1 Nephi 15:24).

Sadly, the narrative embraced by too many today is that our leaders cannot lead us astray. This is well meaning
but incorrect teaching. We hear, “Keep your eyes riveted on the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve
Apostles. We will not lead you astray. We cannot” (M. Russell Ballard, October 2014 General Conference). We
are told to “stay in the boat” when there is troubled waters about us, that boat which is directed by men. Joseph
Smith’s last three dreams had him get out of a sinking boat two times and out of a burning barn a third. “Let me
remind you to stay in the course chartered by the Church. It is the Lord’s Church, and he will not permit it to be
led astray. If we take the counsel that comes from the prophets and seers, we will pursue the course that is
pleasing to the Lord” (Bruce R. McConkie, “Our Relationship With the Lord,” BYU Devotional March 2,
1982). “Keep your eye on the Prophet, for the Lord will never permit his Prophet to lead this Church astray”
(Ezra Taft Benson, Conference Report, October 1966, 123)

The Prophets of scripture and Joseph Smith tell us the opposite. “We have heard men who hold the priesthood
remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them (even) if they knew it
was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who
would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his
folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have
taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told to do by their presidents,
they should do it without any questions. When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of
obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong
themselves” (Joseph Smith, Millennial Star, 14:38, pp.593-595).

Men are not saved through their allegiance to imperfect, fallen man, but through their diligent seeking of God
and following the Holy Ghost that results from it. True messengers sent of God and inspired servants of God on
Earth will always act in ways increasing our to God, not in ways that inflate their limited role as a middleman in
substitution of Christ and His Spirit as our mediator. True messengers do not seek for men to worship them, but
for men to worship God. They do not consider themselves more holy than those they are called to serve and do
not ask for special treatment – the praise of men and the filthy lucre often resulting from it. We read in the Book
of Mormon “...for thus saith the Lord; Ye shall not esteem one flesh above another, or one man shall not think
himself above another” (Mosiah 23:7).

II. Trust in God Scriptures

Hereafter is a small collection of scriptures that support looking to God, not man, for light. There are many
more. We begin with the exact, chiastic center scripture of the Bible, Psalm 118:8. It states:

“It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man” (Psalm 118:8).

“O LORD, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I
know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or
maketh flesh his arm” (2 Nephi 4:34).

“Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men,
save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost” (2 Nephi 28:31).

“Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, that maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart
departeth from the Lord” (Jeremiah 17:5).

“For My people have committed two evils: They have forsaken Me, The fountain of living waters, To hew for
themselves cisterns, Broken cisterns That can hold no water” (Jeremiah 2:13).

“Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah's son;
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king
of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come” (Isaiah 8:6-7).

“For behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God,
and despise his words – Ye you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported
you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble”
(D&C 3:7-8).

“For the leaders of the people cause them to err; and they that are led of them are destroyed” (2 Nephi 19:16).

“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding” (Proverbs 3:5).

And now I command you, my servant Joseph, to repent and walk more uprightly before me, and to yield to the
persuasions of men no more” (D&C 5:21).

“Be strong and courageous, be not afraid nor dismayed for the king of Assyria, nor for all the multitude that is
with him: for there be more with us than with him: With him is an arm of flesh; but with us is the LORD our
God to help us, and to fight our battles” (2 Chronicles 32:7-8).

“Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God. They are
brought down and fallen: but we are risen, and stand upright. Save, LORD: let the king hear us when we call”
(Psalm 20:7).

“For I will trust not in my bow, neither shall my sword save me. But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and
hast put them to shame that hated us” (Psalm 44:6-7).

“It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in princes” (Psalm 118:9; 146:3).

“Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a
covering, but not of my Spirit, that they may add sin to sin: That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not
asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt”
(Isaiah 30:1-2; Romans 8:1).

“Their land is full of idols; they worship the work of their own hands” (Isaiah 2:8).

III. It is the Same: God’s Words versus Man’s Words

Good men and inspired servants sent of the Lord do their best to quote God’s words as accurately as possible,
not adding to or taking away anything from them. These servants point to God as our source light and truth, not
themselves. Contrast this imperfect and corrupt men who seek the praise of the world and financial support from
others. God defines this as “priestcraft” (2 Ne. 26:29). Such live on the accolades of men and filthy lucre. They
raise themselves up as a light in replacement of God. Our Savior stated that He is the light we are look to, and
the things He does as our example (3 Ne. 18:24).

Thus Saith the Lord God’s words are powerful and important, much more so than those of any man. God
often introduces His word by using some variation of the phrase “Thus saith the Lord.” They alert us that we
should pay close attention to what follows. The Doctrine and Covenants has many such phrases. They include,
“Hearken unto me, saith the Lord your God" (Section 51); “Behold, I am God; give heed unto my word”
(Section 13); “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your redeemer, the Great I AM” (section 29); "Listen to
the voice of the Lord your God, Even Alpha and Omega" (section 35), and so on.

Some things we read are not God’s words. An example of a so-called "revelation" from God in the Doctrine and
Covenants that did not come from Him is portions of Section 20. Elder James. E. Talmage read its first few
verses, believing that they were the words of Christ, or at least those given to Joseph Smith by Him. He believed
they were also tied to the Lord’s birth date. With this assumption, Elder Talmage added his own statements
about this probability in His book Jesus the Christ, stating that April 6th was most likely the Lord’s birthday.
This book statement is believed to have started our April 6th tradition for Christ’s birthday. In the Joseph Smith
Paper’s project, we have since learned that the words in the first few verses of D&C 20 are not those of the
Lord, nor those of a sent angel from His throne, nor those of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Instead, they are added
words of John Whitmer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time, used to introduce the reader to the rest of the section.
Elder Talmage’s mistaken belief that they were the Lord’s words has led to a now fully entrenched LDS
“tradition” that they also reveal our Lord’s birthdate (see the paper, “The LDS April 6th Tradition”).

God’s Words versus Man’s Words The introductory paragraph to D&C 20 (above it) states that it is a
“revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet,” yet this introduction, along with the first few verses of
Section 20 were written by a committee that compiled that particular edition of the scriptures in 1981. Nowhere
in this section does our Lord Jesus Christ identify these words as coming from Him.

We now know, thanks largely to the Joseph Smith Papers project, that section 20 is a hodgepodge of statements
thrown together by as many as six different early Church leaders, who did so in a hurry to get it ready for
publication. Joseph Smith the Prophet may have been among them, but the original document also shows other
“voices” that are not our Lord’s. This is especially true of the first few verses of D&C 20, which we now know
were written by John Whtimer, Joseph Smith’s scribe at the time. Additional verses in Section 20 may be
written by Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, or Sidney Rigdon, among others.

More importantly, many today assume these “servants” and others (like our General Authorities) are the
“servants” God referred to in verse 38 of Section 1 of the D&C, where the Lord states, “Whether it be by mine
own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Many times they are not the same. We should
understand the context of this statement by God, and what He means by “his servants.” The voices in writing in
D&C 20, and many others today are not "the same voice” as God's, nor those of His chosen “angels” – those
sent from His throne who are His “servants” sent to quote Him directly, doing so accurately - word for word.
Thus, we should also be careful in how we use the word “servant” today and how we interpret D&C 1:38. We
should pay close attention to those servants sent of God who quote God’s words accurately. Statements by men
are much less important, not matter how well-meaning or eloquent they might be.

Does this mean that section 20 should be ignored? No. It contains many patterns for governing the operations of
the church. But some of those patterns were created by men (some believe they suggest a Campbellite
influence), and not necessarily the pattern laid out by God Himself for the Church.

Take for example, section 27, a revelation given in the voice of one of God's servants – this time an angel. One
day Joseph set out to buy some wine for the sacrament. On the way he was stopped by an angel, who warned
him he was about to purchase wine from his enemies, and that he might want to think twice about doing so in
case it was poisoned. The angel didn’t warn Joseph in his own words, adding His own commentary, but instead
saying, “Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your redeemer, whose word is quick and
powerful.” From there the angel quoted God directly, delivering the message he was sent to deliver, accurately
and without embellishment. He recited it word for word just as if it had come from the mouth of God Himself.
He then departed. That is what it really means in D&C 1:38 when God said, “Whether it be by mine own voice,
or by the voice of my servants it is the same.”

In the October General Conferences of 2010 and 2014 a leader stood and quoted this verse of scripture, implying
that what followed would be the same as the Lord’s own words. It is was the Lord’s words, quoted exactly as He
gave them, then “they are the same.” Certainly there were edifying words spoken by these leaders, but this verse
in D&C 1 doesn’t necessarily mean the words of leaders past, present, or future are the words of Christ, unless
they are exactly His, or if they speaking under the power of the Holy Ghost (who is one with God and bears of
the truth of all things). Only then is one speaking with “the tongue of angels.”

We often place too much trust in “the arm of flesh.” This is one of the biggest problems in our current culture.
Where possible, we should verify all things said or written as God’s word by way of the Spirit. We read in 3
Nephi 19:8 about the Twelve Apostles at Bountiful and how they taught most effectively. “And when they had
ministered those same words which Jesus had spoken – nothing varying from the words which Jesus had
spoken – behold, they knelt again and prayed to the Father in the name of Jesus.” Here His servants spoke the
same words as Jesus, the people knowing that they were His. Then is the meaning of D&C 1:38 fulfilled,
“Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” Note verses 36 through 38 of
D&C 1 hereafter. The whole section is the Lord’s introduction to His own words that are to go forth to the world. He states:

37 Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in
them shall all be fulfilled.
38 What I the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the
earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the
voice of my servants, it is the same.
39 For behold, and lo, the Lord is God, and the Spirit beareth record, and the record is true, and the truth
abideth forever and ever. Amen.

Note the Lord is counseling us to search these commandments - the ones in the revelations of this particular
book – that ARE HIS! No reference is made in this section to anything a Church leader might one day say in
the future. This is important in understanding the next verse, "What I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I
excuse not myself." They are His words, not mans. Our Lord is God. He makes no apologies for the precise
predictions He has made. Note that God is speaking in the past tense. What He has spoken He has spoken. This
is not a reference about what a future leader of the Church may say. He's referencing His own words here, and
His words alone. "And though the heavens and the earth may pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall
all be fulfilled." If our powerful God said it, then we can be sure it will happen.

The key question is, "what is the same" as His words, what is the same as His voice? He is talking about His
word as revealed in this book – the Doctrine and Covenants where His prophecies, His predictions, and the
judgments He assures us will come to pass are found. The servants He is referring to are those men to whom
these particular revelations in the D&C were given to and recorded by. This list includes Joseph and Hyrum
Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, John, David, and Peter Whitmer, etc. We should not miss the clear
reference in them in verse 6 - to "my servants" - the very ones instructed by Him to publish these words to the world.

Thus, in Section 1 of the D&C, His introduction to His words that follow, God is telling His people that all the
prophecies foretold in the sections that follow this introduction will come to pass. Why - because He spoke it,
"and I excuse not myself.” His words are quick and powerful and will be fulfilled! This is the context of the
Lord’s words, “Whether it be by mine own voice, or by the voice of my servants it is the same.” He is not saying
that future leaders words are or will be His. He is saying that the words He gave past prophets in the Bible, Book
of Mormon, and those given Joseph Smith and others in the D&C - relative to coming judgments in our day -
will be fulfilled, but He gave them to these men. They are His words, given in revelation! They are not prepared
talks by men, not matter how good and well-intended they may be. If the talks are given under the power of the
Holy Ghost, then they are comparable to His words, but not necessarily the same.

Last Thoughts on Section 27 In the original Book of Commandments, Section 27 was 13 verses shorter
than it is today, ending in verse 5, with the statement, “for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the
vine with you, on the earth, and with all those whom my Father hath given me out of the world.” We learn in the
Joseph Smith Papers project that Oliver Cowdery added the extra 13 verses beyond verse 5 – those of God’s
angel, starting with a statement he says was made by Moroni. We see this in the later part of verse 5 when the
angel seems to suddenly shift gears, stating, "I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with
Moroni...”

Nothing Oliver Cowdery added in section 27 has the same status as that of, “by my voice or the voice of my
servant.” The angel appearing to Joseph Smith spoke for God, providing nothing more or less than His words.
Note the Lord’s words regarding the words He gave His chosen servant Joseph Smith to give us. God states,
“Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall
give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness before me” (D&C 21:4). An important qualification
for a true messenger is that the word of God they carry be as brief as possible, that it originate from God, and
that it is accurate.

Idolatry It is important that we quote God and angels often and accurately. And it is important that we
quote God more often than men – the arm of flesh, in our talks to one another. We have replaced too many of
God’s words with those of men. Too many talks quote General Authorities over and over rather than the words
of God. Leaders often quote each other. Sometimes they quote themselves from past talks. God has instead
spoken to us! His words are powerful. We should reference His words more frequently, doing so accurately. A
good second choice is to quote those chosen messengers that quote Him word for word, those who are “sent
ones” from His presence and throne. When a servant, chosen and sent by God states, “thus saith the Lord,” we
should pay close attention to what follows, then confirm that they are indeed the Lord’s words. We should then
follow them. In this way we can avoid idolatry and deception.

The author is grateful to Robert Smith and Rock Waterman for their insights and statements utilized in this
paper.

Isaiah wrote:If a prophet prophesy, then ANYONE that's a servant of the Lord can be a prophet. Only if and when the Holy Ghost falls on them, and not before. See Spiritual Gifts below.

The Acts of the Apostles and (Joel 2:28-32)
Chapter 2

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy:

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/tg/holy- ... f?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pay attention to these verses...they tell us that NOT all servants can prophesy, rather, only a select few.

D&C 46
10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
15 And again, to some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know the differences of administration, as it will be pleasing unto the same Lord, according as the Lord will, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men.
16 And again, it is given by the Holy Ghost to some to know the diversities of operations, whether they be of God, that the manifestations of the Spirit may be given to every man to profit withal.
17 And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom.
18 To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.
21 And again, to some is given the working of miracles;
22 And to others it is given to prophesy;
23 And to others the discerning of spirits.
24 And again, it is given to some to speak with tongues;
25 And to another is given the interpretation of tongues.
26 And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God.
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit;

Amonhi wrote:

Isaiah wrote:If a prophet prophesy, then ANYONE that's a servant of the Lord can be a prophet.

The Acts of the Apostles and (Joel 2:28-32)
Chapter 2

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days,
saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens
I will pour out in those days of my Spirit;
and they shall prophesy:

Yes, that is a prophecy about our day and those who realize that they are prophets and if you looked close you will also see that there will be prophetesses too!

Oh, and just to put in the plug, these prophets and prophetesses will be speaking in the name of the Lord by His spirit and the righteous will obey them as if the Lord personally spoke just as much as we should obey when the President of the Church speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost.

One prophet speaking by the spirit has equal power and authority from God to do so as another prophet speaking by the spirit. Both are servants of the Lord and both speak for Him equally when they speak by the spirit.

Peace,
Amonhi

Prophesying about future events - is not the same as begin the Lords mouthpiece and commanding the members of the church and directing the church on earth.
The scripture does not say they speak in the name of the Lord or that they need to be obeyed. Yes many have seen visions of the future and had NDE, but the accounts that I have read they all say they are not speaking for the Lord or that they have authority over the church and the members should not obey them. You are desperately plucking straws, and only see what you want to see but totally misinterpret the scripture.