Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal!

[rewcox]

Again, referring to rewcox (who started this thread) and it's been a repeated issue (FTP) with those who follow Snuffer:

rewcox wrote:
On the other hand, I know some, like Isaiah, who promote the Church is in apostasy, so in effect, they have rejected our current Prophet and the apostles.

So, in effect, by starting this thread rewcox was addressing the audience that opposes this idea, or doctrine as he put it, and that most notably includes the "Snufferites" or Remnant/Preserve-the-Restoration movement.

Hopefully that clarifies.

So this was in effect a passive aggressive thread against Snuffer and those that follow him? And a sincere discussion on this topic was never on the agenda?

-Finrock

I have listed great scriptures from the Book of Mormon confirming following the prophet is doctrinal. Is that not sincere? I don't know why people have heartburn over it.

[Finrock]

Again, referring to rewcox (who started this thread) and it's been a repeated issue (FTP) with those who follow Snuffer:

rewcox wrote:
On the other hand, I know some, like Isaiah, who promote the Church is in apostasy, so in effect, they have rejected our current Prophet and the apostles.

So, in effect, by starting this thread rewcox was addressing the audience that opposes this idea, or doctrine as he put it, and that most notably includes the "Snufferites" or Remnant/Preserve-the-Restoration movement.

Hopefully that clarifies.

So this was in effect a passive aggressive thread against Snuffer and those that follow him? And a sincere discussion on this topic was never on the agenda?

-Finrock

I have listed great scriptures from the Book of Mormon confirming following the prophet is doctrinal. Is that not sincere? I don't know why people have heartburn over it.

I have no heartburn over anything you've posted. If anything, I have a desire to share the good God has placed inside of me and I do want others to know and to understand the good. I am not perfect, but I know I am sincere and I know I have pure intent. Those terms/ideas mean something and they dictate behavior. When we are sincere and have pure intent, we will act in accordance to those principles and our behavior will reflect that. These are things that can actually be measured to some degree. However, you are the final judge of your own behavior. I'm going to try to believe the best about you and others.

Just posting scripture does not necessarily mean one is sincere and has pure intent. Anyways, I don't think you need a lecture from me on what intellectual integrity means. Speaking about myself and my agenda, know that I will always try to adhere to the principles of intellectual honesty/integrity, and if I do not, I will repent, because I'm serious about being a good man. Ultimately I have no other desire.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

Again, referring to rewcox (who started this thread) and it's been a repeated issue (FTP) with those who follow Snuffer:

So, in effect, by starting this thread rewcox was addressing the audience that opposes this idea, or doctrine as he put it, and that most notably includes the "Snufferites" or Remnant/Preserve-the-Restoration movement.

Hopefully that clarifies.

So this was in effect a passive aggressive thread against Snuffer and those that follow him? And a sincere discussion on this topic was never on the agenda?

-Finrock

I have listed great scriptures from the Book of Mormon confirming following the prophet is doctrinal. Is that not sincere? I don't know why people have heartburn over it.

I have no heartburn over anything you've posted. If anything, I have a desire to share the good God has placed inside of me and I do want others to know and to understand the good. I am not perfect, but I know I am sincere and I know I have pure intent. Those terms/ideas mean something and they dictate behavior. When we are sincere and have pure intent, we will act in accordance to those principles and our behavior will reflect that. These are things that can actually be measured to some degree. However, you are the final judge of your own behavior. I'm going to try to believe the best about you and others.

Just posting scripture does not necessarily mean one is sincere and has pure intent. Anyways, I don't think you need a lecture from me on what intellectual integrity means. Speaking about myself and my agenda, know that I will always try to adhere to the principles of intellectual honesty/integrity, and if I do not, I will repent, because I'm serious about being a good man. Ultimately I have no other desire.

-Finrock

You are different Finrock, and some others too, you lead with doubt (see your other post with a similar named thread). I don't know that it means anything, but Jesef and I have seen others take the seed of doubt and turn it into a tree outside the church and prophets and apostles.

[Isaiah]

What does "follow the prophet" really mean? Do you believe that those who went with Nephi gave up their ability to think for themselves or question their leaders? What are you recommending our relationship with the prophet should be? Equals, friends, servants, slaves, what?

If we learned something for ourselves and the prophet tells us something that contradicts what we learned for ourselves, are you recommending that we accept what the prophet says without question and immediately assume that the prophet is right and we are wrong?

If the prophet tells us to do something that we think is wrong or immoral or unwise, are you saying that we should do it anyway without first resolving our views or reconciling our beliefs?

We live by faith as all is not revealed so yes we follow the prophet even if we think he is wrong or don't fully understand what he is telling us to do.
It does not mean we loose our free agency or ability to reason, as we learn through doing and obedience as things come to us line upon line precept upon precept. We are all infants and babes in our progression and need to accept correction and guidance.

"If the prophet tells us to do something that we think is wrong or immoral or unwise, are you saying that we should do it anyway without first resolving our views or reconciling our beliefs?" What we need to do in such a circumstance is repent and follow the direction given as we are not in line with the will of G_d.

I know of no prophet either ancient or modern that has told some one to do something and it has not worked out for their benefit. In fact I would say the same to the local church leaders including Bishops and Stake presidents.

I have once been a Bishop and twice a branch president in three different stakes and different countries for that matter. I move around a lot for my work so I ended up in a very small branch with only 3 active Melchizedek PH holders. A very young and inexperience person was currently serving as the Branch President, He did a lot of things I thought was crazy - but I did everything he asked and supported every decision he made with no attempt to undermine him in any way and never had a problem. It takes more courage and faith to be a sheep than a goat.

People that second guess every time the prophet commands have little faith and testimony of the great latter day work, and poor understanding of the principles of the Gospel. If one lives close to the spirit you will know what is your duty.

Again the Prophet is the mouth piece of the Lord - if you can't follow him you can'f follow the Lord. Unity is a higher principle.

Doctrine and Covenants 38:27
27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

Mark 3:25
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Matthew 12:25
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

You said "Again the Prophet is the mouth piece of the Lord - if you can't follow him you can'f follow the Lord."

How ridiculous - this is just the kind of the narrow minded Mormon mentality that many members have.
Believe me, you don't need the prophet to know Christ.
There are millions of people on this earth that don't know
anything about our prophet, and they believe in and have come to know Jesus Christ.

Ever heard of Adrian Rogers - a Southern Baptist pastor - you should have.
You listen to him talk about Christ and you will know that he knows Christ.
I wish our prophet talked as much about Christ and with the same passion as he does.

[Amonhi]

The scriptures are VERY clear that no one should use their priesthood or position in the priesthood to maintain power or influence over us. ALL power and influence should come as a result of persuasion using pure knowledge regardless of priesthood position. As Joseph Taught, "teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves." Follow the prophet is not one of those correct principles.

But, prophets do speak for the lord...sometimes. Not always... And the scriptures tell us that sometimes, missionaries speak for the Lord and when they do, we should hear and obey them as if the Lord were speaking personally. When is a prophet speaking for God and when is He not? When is a missionary speaking for God and when are they not? Only when they are speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost, are they speaking God's words for God and Only then should we accept what is being taught as if it came from God. This doctrine applies to anyone including the prophet, apostles, Bishops, Stake Presidents, Sister Missionaries, children who have the gift of the Holy Ghost, etc.

So, rather than placing obedience on a position or person that is at times speaking for God and at times not, it is better to place it on the voice of God and say that when God speaks with his voice, then we need to obey God.

The problem is that anyone who speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost is speaking for God and should be obeyed as if God were speaking. So, the power to speak for God is not only held by the President of the church, it is held by anyone who has the gift of the Holy Ghost and can speak with the tongue of angels.

Here are the scriptures:

The voice of the spirit is God's voice.
Doctrine and Covenants 88:66
66 Behold, that which you hear is as the voice of one crying in the wilderness—in the wilderness, because you cannot see him—my voice, because my voice is Spirit; my Spirit is truth; truth abideth and hath no end; and if it be in you it shall abound.

Doctrine and Covenants 18:35
35 For it is my voice which speaketh them unto you; for they are given by my Spirit unto you, and by my power you can read them one to another; and save it were by my power you could not have them;

Doctrine and Covenants 97:1
1 Verily I say unto you my friends, I speak unto you with my voice, even the voice of my Spirit, that I may show unto you my will concerning your brethren in the land of Zion, many of whom are truly humble and are seeking diligently to learn wisdom and to find truth.

Doctrine and Covenants 75:1
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, I who speak even by the voice of my Spirit, even Alpha and Omega, your Lord and your God—

Speaking of Missionaries, but the promise extends to all who speak by the power of the Holy Ghost...
3 And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.
4 And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the power of God unto salvation.
5 Behold, this is the promise of the Lord unto you, O ye my servants.- D&C 68

Anyone who has the Gift of the holy Ghost can speak by the power of the Holy Ghost which is the tongue of angels which give the words of Christ as if Christ spoke them personally...
2 Nephi 31:14
14 But, behold, my beloved brethren, thus came the voice of the Son unto me, saying: After ye have repented of your sins, and witnessed unto the Father that ye are willing to keep my commandments, by the baptism of water, and have received the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, and can speak with a new tongue, yea, even with the tongue of angels, and after this should deny me, it would have been better for you that ye had not known me.

2 Nephi 32:2
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?
3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. -

According the D&C 68:3-5, you should obey the missionaries as must as you obey the prophet, but we realize that missionaries are not always speaking by the power of the Holy Ghost. When they do, they speak with all the power of God equal with any prophet that ever spoke by the power of the Holy Ghost.

You might do well to read this talk, LINK HERE - BYUI.edu
"When Are the Writings and Sermons of Church Leaders Entitled to the Claim of Scripture?"
By President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., of the First Presidency, Address to Seminary and Institute Personnel, BYU, 7 July 1954.

If President Clark of the First Presidency can be considered a knowledgeable source of church doctrine, then we should seriously consider why he taught the following while acting in his calling and capacity in the First Presidency of the church. Was he wrong in what he taught or was he right?

(He read D&C 68:3-5 as quoted above, then said)
The very words of the revelation recognize that the Brethren may speak when they are not “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”; yet only when they do speak as “moved upon” is what they say considered scripture. No exceptions are given to this rule or principle. It is universal in its application.

The question is, how shall we know when the things they have spoken were said as they were “moved upon by the Holy Ghost”? I have given some thought to this question, and the answer thereto, so far as I can determine, is: We can tell when the speakers are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost” only when we, ourselves, are “moved upon by the Holy Ghost.” In a way, this completely shifts the responsibility from them to us to determine when they so speak. We might here profitably repeat what Brother Brigham preached. He said:

Were your faith concentrated upon the proper object, your confidence unshaken, your lives pure and holy, every one fulfilling the duties of his or her calling according to the Priesthood and capacity bestowed upon you, you would be filled with the Holy Ghost, and it would be as impossible for any man to deceive and lead you to destruction as for a feather to remain unconsumed in the midst of intense heat. (JD 7:277.)

On another occasion he said:

I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. (JD 9:150.)

The fact is that in the quote above, we are being instructed by the Prophet Brigham Young and the President Clark of the First Presidency to question the leaders of the Church, their teachings and decisions. We are told that it is possible that they may not be doing the Lord's will and we need to know for ourselves from God.

This all means that it is entirely conceivable and even expected that at some point in our lives, we will come to learn from the Lord that what our prophet or other leaders have taught is not from God but from man. Under those circumstances, we are not bound to obey, believe or accept what comes from the prophet by virtue of his priesthood or position in the priesthood. This matches up with D&C 121 which clearly teaches that influence should not be maintained by virtue of a person's priesthood even if that person is the Prophet of the Church holing the highest position in the priesthood of the church. Influence and power should ONLY be maintained by persuasion which comes by pure knowledge, gentleness, love unfeigned and the other attributes of God. NEVER by virtue of our priesthood or position in the priesthood.

Anyone who uses their priesthood or their position in the priesthood as a means for obtaining power or influence over others is committing unrighteous dominion, persecuting the saints and fighting against God while acting in his position of authority not even being aware that he is doing so. Such a person knows nothing of the priesthood nor the means by which the powers of heaven operate.

The doctrine of "following the prophet because he won't lead you astray", is itself an error of men, easily rebuffed by the scriptures and a perfect example of a prophet leading people astray.

Here is how the scriptures/lord directly contradicts the doctrine, "follow the prophet".

Follow the prophet = Follow the highest position of the Priesthood = Be influenced by virtue of a person's priesthood.

If the same person didn't have the priesthood or that office in the priesthood, then you wouldn't be giving them that much power and influence in your life. Follow the prophet means that you should be influenced by virtue of the priesthood, not by virtue of the principle they are teaching. If you take away the prophet, and the person is left to themselves uninfluenced by others, they will do as they are persuaded. If you give people a prophet and teach them to obey the prophet even if they disagree or even if they feel the prophet is wrong, then they are acting contrary to their persuasion and are being influenced solely by the virtue of the priesthood that the person holds.

Persuasion requires teaching and discussion of the principle or action you are trying to persuade a person to take. Persuasion requires us to focus on the principle or action and the reason why that principle should be accepted and believed or why that action should be taken. A person who is truly persuaded acts according to their own will. If they were left to themselves uninfluenced by the outside influence of others, people will do as they are persuaded because they are persuaded. Persuaded people think and act according to their own understanding and do not disregard their own understanding when some other person disagrees with them regardless of that other person's priesthood or position in the priesthood.

The Lord said clearly regarding the righteous use of priesthood that we should not use our priesthood to maintain power or influence over others,

D&C 121:41 No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned;
42 By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile—

This means that any time we are telling others to be influenced in our thoughts or decisions by others by virtue of their priesthood or position in the priesthood, we are contradicting the will of the lord as expressed in these two simple to understand verses. There is no question.

Either you throw out the thought that we should be influenced in our thoughts and actions by our leaders by virtue of their priesthood, or you through out these verses telling us that it is against the Lords will to do so. Both cannot co-exist because they are at odds. Any time anyone tells us that we should be influenced by a person by virtue of their priesthood or position in the priesthood, they are supporting a doctrine that is contrary to the will of the Lord as given in the scriptures. Our leaders at times teach this and they are not aligned with the Lords teachings in doing so.

Almost all men as soon as they gain a little authority immediately begin to expect obedience by virtue of their priesthood. I once did this too. It is considered "unrighteous dominion". He tells us that we have learned by sad experience that this is the nature and disposition of "almost all" men to exercise this type of unrighteous dominion. What does "almost all" mean?

None = 0%
Half = 50%
ALL = 100%
Almost All = Almost 100% of our leaders exercise unrighteous dominion IMMEDIATELY when they are given a little authority...

D&C 121:39 We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion.

God says that using the virtue of our priesthood or position in the priesthood as a means by which we encourage, gain and maintain influence over others is a form of "unrighteous dominion" and He does not support those people who do this. How does he not support them? He takes away the spirit and the powers of heaven and says, "Amen to their priesthood" meaning that He no longer recognizes their priesthood. But they keep their little authority and position over others and without being aware of it, they are persecuting the saints and fighting against God.

D&C 121:36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.
37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

38 Behold, ere he is aware, he is left unto himself, to kick against the pricks, to persecute the saints, and to fight against God.

Again, The Lord tells us plainly that this is the state of "Almost all" of the men that have authority to lead this church. Certainly it is the state of all those who encourage and teach us that we should be influenced in our thoughts and actions by virtue of the priesthood in such a way that we should give up our own learning, thoughts, revelations and experience the moment the prophet says otherwise and that we should do so because of the priesthood He holds.



Peace,
Amonhi

[shadow]

Well that ^^^ is quite a dance!

[Isaiah]

This seems obvious to me. Are you saying something besides what is obviously true? The same can be said for being a prophet, or a seer, or a revelator. All good gifts come from God, or the Lord.

What point are you using the scripture to support?

There may also be the need to define an apostle, so we aren't unintentionally equivocating.

-Finrock

You Included apostle in your list. The Lord selects a few for that calling, so I wouldn't include that in your list.

34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Because God is a respecter of persons and only loves a few of His children and reserves His choice blessings to only a special few? No, it is...

35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

You seem to be saying that the chances of you being selected an apostle is very slim, so therefore you should just forget about that privilege. I suspect you are saying this because you believe that there can only be 15 apostles at a time and that being an apostle means that you lead the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Am I correct?

But, what is an apostle? What is it really? I already know what Mormon tradition believes, but what do the scriptures say? What did it mean anciently? What do you think and believe?

-Finrock

Ok Finrock, show us the stuff, no need to play around.

John 1:
12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"

[Finrock]

If I were to condense what I am saying in to one word, it would be "equality".
-Finrock

Your understanding is wrong.

Thanks for the response, Spaced_Out.

Here is a pearl of wisdom for you: I [do] liken all scriptures unto [myself], that it might be for [my] profit and learning (1 Ne. 19:23).

Also, consider this direction/suggestion from the Seminary teacher manual on a lesson for D&C 93:

Notice in verse 21 that Jesus Christ said He was “in the beginning with the Father.” According to verse 23, who else was in the beginning with the Father? (The word ye in this verse refers to all of Heavenly Father’s spirit children. You might want to suggest that students replace the word ye in verse 23 with their own name and write it in the margin of their scriptures.)

In other words, don't just read the scriptures as these really cool stories about some special people, but read them and find yourself in the scriptures. Recognize that you are special and that God is speaking to you and promising you all of the things He has spoken and promised to others.

Yes, some are born with one talent or two talents or three talents, etc., but we are to magnify that which we have been given. We are also to eagerly seek after the best gifts of God. The greatest gift, being charity.

Further, consider the temple initiatory and endowment ceremony and what it teaches. Who in this ceremony is promised to be made a priest and a king and to reign forever with God in His kingdom and to have all the blessings related to these conditions sealed upon them? Answer: Everyone.

Understand what I am saying. We are all equal in value, in potential, in having access to God, and in having access to ALL of His gifts and blessings. God determines who He bestows His gifts on, but I know perfectly because God told me that He does not lie, neither does He change, and He is not a respecter of persons. All people, in all countries have equal access to ALL of Gods gifts and blessings if they pursue it by faith. You are free to believe as you wish, of course, and I respect that and have no desire to have you believe something against your conscience. But, I do invite you to consider this truth.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal. These words are from Nephi, a Prophet:

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

[Finrock]

It's not a fallacy. They are not keepers of the gate of Heaven. Jesus is.

I didn't say prophets are the keepers of the gate of Heaven. God is still the ultimate authority, but that doesn't mean he can't delegate. God delegates to Jesus, who delegates to others.

Prophets are given authority over the salvation of other men and women. That is a simple fact of scripture. Here is the first one that popped up. There are hundreds of others.

9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the twelve apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

Gorman,

I intend to respond to your other post when I have more time, but you've said this in the other post too, the idea that "prophets are given authority over the salvation of other men and women".

I don't see anywhere in the scriptures where there is this idea that "authority over the salvation of others" is given to a mortal. You quote 1 Nephi 12:9 however, the scripture hearkens to Matthew, where Jesus says, "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

JST replaces regeneration, with resurrection. They will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel in the resurrection, during what seems to be the millennium.

This puts the idea in a different context than having fallible mortals having authority over the salvation of men and women. We won't be seeing through a glass darkly during that age. Further, this seems to be speaking to their unity in Christ, having the same Mind and Spirit as Christ, being One.

Currently, mortals are placed to "preside" over quorums. They are in charge of the quorum and have responsibility for the spiritual welfare of those whom they preside over. This seems different to me than having authority over the salvation of others.

Further, even if we take preside to mean "having authority over", the only authority that one can have or ought to have over another must comply with D&C 121, or else there is no priesthood or authority.

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

-Finrock

[Robert Sinclair]

Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal. These words are from Nephi, a Prophet:

for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me .

Perfect.

This post of yours shows that Nephi answered the two questions the LORD has commanded that we ask of any prophet---

"What hath the LORD answered thee?

and

What hath the LORD spoken?"

Your post of the words of Nephi, answers both questions the LORD commanded we ask.

Ask those two questions of the heads of Ephraim today, and therein you will know what the LORD wants you to know, whether they have spoken with him or not, and whether he has sent them or not.

See Jeremiah 23:18-37 and hearken and follow the words of the LORD.

You will be glad you did.

♡ ♡

[Isaiah]

Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal. These words are from Nephi, a Prophet:

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

I think that you've just solved your problem

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words,
for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good

Sounds like to me he is saying - you don't have to believe in or follow me, just believe and follow Christ.

I think we need to listen and follow the Holy Ghost - that still small voice in us which is Christ.
2 Nephi 25:26
"And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ,
we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ,
and we write according to our prophecies,
that our children may know to what source
they may look for a remission of their sins."

2 Nephi 31:20
"Wherefore, ye must press forward
with a steadfastness in Christ,
having a perfect brightness of hope,
and a love of God and of all men.
Wherefore, if ye shall press forward,
feasting upon the word of Christ,
and endure to the end, behold,
thus saith the Father:
Ye shall have eternal life."

2 Nephi 32
3 "Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do."

3 Nephi 11
36 "And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one."

[Amonhi]

Well that ^^^ is quite a dance!

Thanks.

If you would like to show the error in it, I welcome you to do so. If not, then calling it a dance does not dis-validate it or detract from it in the least.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal. These words are from Nephi, a Prophet:

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

It doesn't take a prophet/President of the church to speak the words of Christ as shown here. Anyone who has the gift of the Holy Ghost and speaks with the tongue of angels as taught by Nephi, meets this criteria. He is essentially saying that he is speaking with the tongue of angels, just as we all can. In his own words, he explains:

13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.
...
2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. - 2 Nephi 31:13 & 32:2-3

There is a clear correlation between Nephi saying that he is speaking the words of Christ which teach all men what they should do and the promise he gives to all who receive the Gift of the Holy Ghost and are able to speak with the tongue of angels, which is the words of Christ which tell people all things that they should do.

Be like Nephi, and when you speak the words of Christ with the power of the Holy Ghost, then people will and should follow you as much as any prophet who ever lived.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

It's not a fallacy. They are not keepers of the gate of Heaven. Jesus is.

I didn't say prophets are the keepers of the gate of Heaven. God is still the ultimate authority, but that doesn't mean he can't delegate. God delegates to Jesus, who delegates to others.

Prophets are given authority over the salvation of other men and women. That is a simple fact of scripture. Here is the first one that popped up. There are hundreds of others.

9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the twelve apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

Aren't bishops judges in Israel? Does that mean that they should be obeyed without reservation too?

Are some suggesting that we need to obey our bishops like some are suggesting we do the Prophets?

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

What does "follow the prophet" really mean? Do you believe that those who went with Nephi gave up their ability to think for themselves or question their leaders? What are you recommending our relationship with the prophet should be? Equals, friends, servants, slaves, what?

If we learned something for ourselves and the prophet tells us something that contradicts what we learned for ourselves, are you recommending that we accept what the prophet says without question and immediately assume that the prophet is right and we are wrong?

If the prophet tells us to do something that we think is wrong or immoral or unwise, are you saying that we should do it anyway without first resolving our views or reconciling our beliefs?

Again the Prophet is the mouth piece of the Lord - if you can't follow him you can'f follow the Lord. Unity is a higher principle.

Anyone who has the spirit and speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost is a mouth piece of the Lord.

2 Do ye not remember that I said unto you that after ye had received the Holy Ghost ye could speak with the tongue of angels? And now, how could ye speak with the tongue of angels save it were by the Holy Ghost?

3 Angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore, they speak the words of Christ. Wherefore, I said unto you, feast upon the words of Christ; for behold, the words of Christ will tell you all things what ye should do. - 2 Nephi 32

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

I still don't even know what you believe because you have as of yet to respond to my previous post requesting that you clarify what "Follow the Prophet" really means in an everyday practice and application.

Could you please go back and explain what you mean and are endorsing by telling people to "follow the prophet"? Here is the Post you didn't respond to: HERE

Peace,
Amonhi

Maybe this will help: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith” (D&C 21:4–5).

Then the Lord gave a magnificent promise to those who are obedient: “For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory” (D&C 21:6).

A year and a half later, the Lord added to that significant promise this stern warning: “The arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people” (D&C 1:14).

Yes, of course, receive his word as if from the mouth of the Lord. ANd how shall we receive it if not by the spirit of truth? We receive from the Lord by the spirit of truth, and in no other way. To do so is not of God, even if it comes from the prophet, even if it comes from the Lord, even if it comes from an angel of light. This scripture you quoted does not negate or dis-empower the meaning and importance of this scripture below:

19 And again, he that receiveth the word of truth, doth he receive it by the Spirit of truth or some other way?
20 If it be some other way it is not of God. - D&C 50

This applies to the Lord just as well as Prophets or anyone. The spirit beareth record and the record is true...

Peace,
Amonhi

[rewcox]

Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal. These words are from Nephi, a Prophet:

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words,
for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good

Sounds like to me he is saying - you don't have to believe in or follow me, just believe and follow Christ.

Don't wrest the scriptures you little doubters!

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

Check Mate!!!!

[Amonhi]

Above you said, "yes we follow the prophet even if we think he is wrong or don't fully understand what he is telling us to do." Does this mean that you would give up without hesitation any learning and revelation they you had previously received by the spirit as soon as that revelation was contradicted by the prophet?

A house divide cannot stand - one would never receive revelation or knowledge contrary to that what the prophet is teaching.
If you receive something different to what the prophet is telling you to do - you are not listening to the right spirit.

Then what spirit were Bruce R. McConkie and President Joseph Fielding Smith listening to when they said President Brigham Young was teaching false doctrine?

The problem with this logic is that you are negating the spirit that got you into the church and saying that it cannot be trusted. If you receive a revelation through the spirit that says join the church and then later you have a revelation from the same spirit that tells you to do something or believe something contrary to the prophet, then you say you can't trust that spirit that got you into the church. So, what should they do, leave teh church?

You place so much authority on the Prophet that you negate the voice of God to us directly. This makes the prophet our God and the spirit is meaningless. Just obey the prophet, you don't need the spirit to teach you all things and tell you all things what ye should do. You might as well start rewriting the scriptures. you can start with this verse...

2 Nephi 32:5
5 For behold, again I say unto you that if ye will enter in by the way, and receive the PROPHET, HE will show unto you all things what ye should do.

The most intelligent of them all calls the prophet and commanded them and tells them what to say to us - not a good idea to lean unto your own wisdom and understanding.

When we can speak to God for ourselves, we don't need a prophet to speak to God for us. The children of Israel received the higher law which was that they could go to God for themselves and they were afraid and told Moses to talk to God for them, so they got the lower law. You are placing the lower law, (have the prophet speak to God for you), above the Higher law, (Talk to God yourselves). This is backward. Here are the scripture references:

Children of Israel send their Elders to ask Moses to talk to God for them. The people asked Moses to talk to God for them, not God, Not Moses...
23 And it came to pass, when ye heard the voice out of the midst of the darkness, (for the mountain did burn with fire,) that ye came near unto me, even all the heads of your tribes, and your elders;
24 And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.
25 Now therefore why should we die? for this great fire will consume us: if we hear the voice of the Lord our God any more, then we shall die.
26 For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of the fire, as we have, and lived?
27 Go thou near, and hear all that the Lord our God shall say: and speak thou unto us all that the Lord our God shall speak unto thee; and we will hear it, and do it. - Deut. 5

19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die. - Exodus 20

Because they refused to see the face of God like Moses did, they were given the lower law

22 For without this no man can see the face of God, even the Father, and live.
23 Now this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness, and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God;
24 But they hardened their hearts and could not endure his presence; therefore, the Lord in his wrath, for his anger was kindled against them, swore that they should not enter into his rest while in the wilderness, which rest is the fulness of his glory.
25 Therefore, he took Moses out of their midst, and the Holy Priesthood also;
26 And the lesser priesthood continued, which priesthood holdeth the key of the ministering of angels and the preparatory gospel;
27 Which gospel is the gospel of repentance and of baptism, and the remission of sins, and the law of carnal commandments, which the Lord in his wrath caused to continue with the house of Aaron among the children of Israel until John, whom God raised up, being filled with the Holy Ghost from his mother’s womb. - D&C 84

God wants us all to be prophets and speak for Him by the spirit
Numbers 11:29
29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

If you are like the children of Israel, and don't have the gift of the Holy Ghost to tell you whether a prophet is speaking in the name of the Lord or not, you don't just assume that they are... how did God want them to you tell if the prophets called were speaking for him or for themselves?

16 According to all that thou desiredst of the Lord thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.
18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.
20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. - Deut. 18

What a terrible way to go... Wait until the prophecy is fulfilled and then you know... But if the prophet speaks it presumptuously, then we shouldn't be afraid of the prophet.

It is better to get the spirit and speak to God for yourself and then speak to others for God by the spirit, than to rely on a prophet to speak to God for you and limit yourself and your progression and be like the children of Israel and ask the prophet to speak to God for you. If you don't have the spirit and need a middle man, then listen to the prophet and learn how to talk to God for yourself. The Lord will answer you by himself...

7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to inquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself: - Ezekiel 14

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Do you believe that God has done something to cause and prevent every member of the church from progressing beyond faith to knowledge? Has God stopped, slowed or halted the progression of every member of the church so that no one can be as spiritually advanced as the prophet or president of the church?

It sounds like you are saying that the Prophet if the church is greater than all of us and that he should have power and influence over us based soley on his priesthood and position in the priesthood. Is that what you are saying?

Been commanded by the prophet to do something does in no way remove our knowledge or ability to progress. If the prophet tells us that we need to go and fill a full time mission how does that stop your progression.

For example the age of missionaries was changed and it was refereed to as the start of the hastening of the work as we find in D$C88. Prophetic direction. Did you receive that revelation - did the spirit till you to do something else. What do we do we, we call the young men and woman in and hasten their preparation and send them on a mission - how does that hinder their spiritual advancement.

I know some people are told by the spirit not to serve missions and they have done well to follow the spirit.

The prophets command us to repent and do many hard things - how does that hinder our progression. If the prophet commands you to leave an area - how does that hinder your progression. In fact a commandment was given just prior to the storm Katrina hitting land that the members must be evacuated. The Stake presidents and Bishops organised it. How did that hinder their salvation. I suppose you would want to go and fast and pray for 2 weeks before obeying - not a good idea. If every stake president and Bishop did the same - the church would completely fail in it's purpose.

I am not advocating disobeying the prophet by default. I am saying that we should follow the spirit. It doesn't take two weeks to hear the voice of the spirit. It is or can be instant. If you don't have the spirit, then it might take 2 weeks to get it in which case, you are right. If you are coming from that point of view, I could see it being a problem.

I have a firm testimony of the prophet that he would not lead us astray - he commands I jump. If you think you have come to all knowledge an exceeded the wisdom of Christ that you no longer need a prophet, then you must be a translated being.

You are placing the prophet too high. It doesn't take a translated being to follow the spirit.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Amonhi]

Everyone should heed the Lord, whether he speaks to you via prophets, the Spirit, or face to face.

It seems that many are having issues with the term "following the prophet" as they consider it to be hero-worship or being ruled by the arm of the flesh. To avoid this, they have adopted a philosophy that prophets are not needed and they you only need to the Spirit or Christ directly.

I agree that many worship the man instead of giving heed to the words Christ is giving us through him and that this is something that should be done away with, but that has nothing to do with whether prophets are used by the Lord and should be followed. Teaching that prophets are not needed and that following them is not doctrinal is simply wrong and sinful. When God speaks through his prophet, they must be followed.

The Lord uses prophets. He always has. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear...

Serragon, tell me something.

Have you seen those Christians who swear by the Bible, so much so that they reject any and all prophets and revelation based solely on their belief that the Bible is the final word of God and that no more revelation will ever be given?

Is the Bible false? No it is not. Is it an Idol? No it is not.

Has the Bible BECOME an idol for some of them because of their overemphasis on it to the point that they block out other sources of truth? Yes, it has.

Apply the same thing to prophets.

Does God call prophets? Yes.

Are prophets Idols? No

Can these prophets BECOME Idols to specific individuals in the same manner as the bible? Of course, everything and anything can.

It is NOT depending on flesh to heed the words of God's prophets. It is possible to fall into that however, without knowing it until it is too late, and when you're at that point you are blinded by unbelief until the light of God opens your mind, at which point you are able to heed God's prophets in the manner we are supposed to.

I'm not sure who you are talking about Stahura. I doubt casual members frequent LDSFF.

Do you not agree that when Nephi said it was time to leave, that it was "smart" for those who believed Nephi to leave with him? Do you not agree that it was "smart" for those who believed Brigham Young to leave with him?

I don't know anyone who worships our apostles and prophets. I know a lot who pay attention to what they say and try to do that. What is said, brings us closer to Christ.

If they are unable to listen and hear the errors often taught from the leaders of the church, then they are worshiping the leaders and unable to see their weakness. If a person listens to general conference and cannot see or hear the teachings that don't match up with the scriptures, then they are blind because they are worshiping the speakers. Their bias is a form of worship.


On the same token, if people can't listen and hear what the leaders of the church say that is aligned with the scriptures, then they are biased against the church and so also have idols and worship against the leaders of the church.

A true seeker and an honorable person will see both the good and the bad and accept the good and forgive the bad.

Peace,
Amonhi

[Finrock]

Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal. These words are from Nephi, a Prophet:

6 I glory in plainness; I glory in truth; I glory in my Jesus, for he hath redeemed my soul from hell.

7 I have charity for my people, and great faith in Christ that I shall meet many souls spotless at his judgment-seat.

8 I have charity for the Jew—I say Jew, because I mean them from whence I came.

9 I also have charity for the Gentiles. But behold, for none of these can I hope except they shall be reconciled unto Christ, and enter into the narrow gate, and walk in the strait path which leads to life, and continue in the path until the end of the day of probation.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ; and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words,
for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good

Sounds like to me he is saying - you don't have to believe in or follow me, just believe and follow Christ.

Don't wrest the scriptures you little doubters!

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

Check Mate!!!!

Lol, you're funny. Proof by assertion and more proof by assertion.

It is true because you say it is true, reason and evidence be damned. I can just see the fingers in your ears. ;) :))

You quote scriptures that don't say what you want it to say so you just assert that it does.

If Nephi is speaking by the Spirit then he is speaking the words of Christ. Nephi was speaking by the Spirit, so it is the Spirit speaking and not Nephi. If we are are following, we are following the Spirit. But any person who has the Spirit speaks the words of Christ. Any person who speaks by the Spirit is a prophet. Therefore the conclusion must be that listening to the Spirit is more important than listening to the person. LDS prophets do not have the Spirit by virtue of their calling or position. LDS prophets can and do err. Believing that the LDS prophets CANNOT lead you astray is idolatry and ignores the fundamental truth about mortal fallibility.

None of this means that LDS prophets are false prophets. None of this means that you should ignore them. None of this means that you should not listen to them. None of this means that you should doubt they are prophets. It means that the Spirit matters most. It means that you should put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ who cannot fail. It means you need to start treating every person just like you would treat an LDS prophet. No more respect of persons. It means that you need to focus on receiving and following the Spirit.

-Finrock

[rewcox]

Follow the Prophet is Doctrinal. These words are from Nephi, a Prophet:

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words,
for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good

Sounds like to me he is saying - you don't have to believe in or follow me, just believe and follow Christ.

Don't wrest the scriptures you little doubters!

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

Check Mate!!!!

Lol, you're funny. Proof by assertion and more proof by assertion.

It is true because you say it is true, reason and evidence be damned. I can just see the fingers in your ears. ;) :))

You quote scriptures that don't say what you want it to say so you just assert that it does.

If Nephi is speaking by the Spirit then he is speaking the words of Christ. Nephi was speaking by the Spirit, so it is the Spirit speaking and not Nephi. If we are are following, we are following the Spirit. But any person who has the Spirit speaks the words of Christ. Any person who speaks by the Spirit is a prophet. Therefore the conclusion must be that listening to the Spirit is more important than listening to the person. LDS prophets do not have the Spirit by virtue of their calling or position. LDS prophets can and do err. Believing that the LDS prophets CANNOT lead you astray is idolatry and ignores the fundamental truth about mortal fallibility.

None of this means that LDS prophets are false prophets. None of this means that you should ignore them. None of this means that you should not listen to them. None of this means that you should doubt they are prophets. It means that the Spirit matters most. It means that you should put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ who cannot fail. It means you need to start treating every person just like you would treat an LDS prophet. No more respect of persons. It means that you need to focus on receiving and following the Spirit.

-Finrock

You're a little doubter Fin.

[Finrock]

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words,
for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good

Sounds like to me he is saying - you don't have to believe in or follow me, just believe and follow Christ.

Don't wrest the scriptures you little doubters!

10 And now, my beloved brethren, and also Jew, and all ye ends of the earth, hearken unto these words and believe in Christ;
and if ye believe not in these words believe in Christ. And if ye shall believe in Christ ye will believe in these words, for they are the words of Christ, and he hath given them unto me; and they teach all men that they should do good.

Check Mate!!!!

Lol, you're funny. Proof by assertion and more proof by assertion.

It is true because you say it is true, reason and evidence be damned. I can just see the fingers in your ears. ;) :))

You quote scriptures that don't say what you want it to say so you just assert that it does.

If Nephi is speaking by the Spirit then he is speaking the words of Christ. Nephi was speaking by the Spirit, so it is the Spirit speaking and not Nephi. If we are are following, we are following the Spirit. But any person who has the Spirit speaks the words of Christ. Any person who speaks by the Spirit is a prophet. Therefore the conclusion must be that listening to the Spirit is more important than listening to the person. LDS prophets do not have the Spirit by virtue of their calling or position. LDS prophets can and do err. Believing that the LDS prophets CANNOT lead you astray is idolatry and ignores the fundamental truth about mortal fallibility.

None of this means that LDS prophets are false prophets. None of this means that you should ignore them. None of this means that you should not listen to them. None of this means that you should doubt they are prophets. It means that the Spirit matters most. It means that you should put your faith and trust in Jesus Christ who cannot fail. It means you need to start treating every person just like you would treat an LDS prophet. No more respect of persons. It means that you need to focus on receiving and following the Spirit.

-Finrock

You're a little doubter Fin.

:))

Comments like this just demonstrates the weakness of your position.

What does that even mean, though? What is it that you think I am doubting?

-Finrock

[Amonhi]

There are two ways we can discuss progression: personal progression and helping others progress. With that in mind:

When I say equal, I mean I am neither superior or inferior to any mortal in value, in potential, and in access to God and all of His greatest gifts.

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly here. When discussing our personal progression, we are all equal in value, potential, and access to God.

I too once believed that those we recognized as prophets had some sort of special access to God which I did not.

The thing about prophets is not that they have some special, exclusive access to God, but they have a special job from God. This is where other's progression comes into play. God has put His prophet in charge of other's progression. Normally, we worry about our own progression and the progression of our family. Sure, we preach the gospel when we can, but that is just an invitation. We don't have authority over a random stranger's progression. The prophet does. This isn't necessarily because he is special (although, prophets often are special in many ways) or because he has exclusive access to God (although, prophets often do have close access).

Prophets have authority over other men and women because God has given them that authority. The prophet as an individual is not special, per se, but it is their calling that is special.

Now, if I take God at His word, without adding to or taking away from it, then it must be absolutely true that I, Finrock, can be a prophet, an apostle, a revelator, a seer, a God. If by exercising faith there was some rung on the ladder that I did not have access to, then God is a liar and I can't have confidence in a liar.

I think you are simply mixing up personal progression with authority over other's progression. Yes, you, Finrock, can receive any personal blessings or spiritual gifts that a prophet, apostle, revelator, seer, or a god could have. No, Finrock, you are not entitled to the same authority over others that a prophet or apostle has.

Prophets and apostles do have a specific function in the church. They call the shots in there callings just as much as a bishop calls the shots in his calling. But just as a bishop does not call the shots for the stake president or the relief society president, the Prophet does not call the shots in our homes and our personal lives. If the prophet were to visit your home, who do you suppose would be the presiding and highest authority in your home? You as the father/Husband/Elder or him as the President/Prophet of the church?

If you stick to saying that we are all entitled to the same spiritual blessings or gifts that prophets and apostles are entitled to, I don't think anyone would have any trouble with what you say. I think the trouble occurs when your words seem to advocate that prophets and apostles do not have any authority over you or me. This is the fallacy.

If the prophet were to visit your home, who do you suppose would be the presiding and highest authority in your home? You as the father/Husband or him as the President/Prophet of the church? Do you know?

Peace,
Amonhi