LDS Freedom Forum

Amonhi wrote:Do you believe that God has done something to cause and prevent every member of the church from progressing beyond faith to knowledge? Has God stopped, slowed or halted the progression of every member of the church so that no one can be as spiritually advanced as the prophet or president of the church?

It sounds like you are saying that the Prophet if the church is greater than all of us and that he should have power and influence over us based soley on his priesthood and position in the priesthood. Is that what you are saying?

Been commanded by the prophet to do something does in no way remove our knowledge or ability to progress. If the prophet tells us that we need to go and fill a full time mission how does that stop your progression.
For example the age of missionaries was changed and it was refereed to as the start of the hastening of the work as we find in D$C88. Prophetic direction. Did you receive that revelation - did the spirit till you to do something else. What do we do we, we call the young men and woman in and hasten their preparation and send them on a mission - how does that hinder their spiritual advancement.
The prophets command us to repent and do many hard things - how does that hinder our progression. If the prophet commands you to leave an area - how does that hinder your progression. In fact a commandment was given just prior to the storm Katrina hitting land that the members must be evacuated. The Stake presidents and Bishops organised it. How did that hinder their salvation. I suppose you would want to go and fast and pray for 2 weeks before obeying - not a good idea. If every stake president and Bishop did the same - the church would completely fail in it's purpose.

I have a firm testimony of the prophet that he would not lead us astray - he commands I jump. If you think you have come to all knowledge an exceeded the wisdom of Christ that you no longer need a prophet, then you must be a translated being.

Serragon wrote:Everyone should heed the Lord, whether he speaks to you via prophets, the Spirit, or face to face.

It seems that many are having issues with the term "following the prophet" as they consider it to be hero-worship or being ruled by the arm of the flesh. To avoid this, they have adopted a philosophy that prophets are not needed and they you only need to the Spirit or Christ directly.

I agree that many worship the man instead of giving heed to the words Christ is giving us through him and that this is something that should be done away with, but that has nothing to do with whether prophets are used by the Lord and should be followed. Teaching that prophets are not needed and that following them is not doctrinal is simply wrong and sinful. When God speaks through his prophet, they must be followed.

The Lord uses prophets. He always has. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear...

Serragon, tell me something.

Have you seen those Christians who swear by the Bible, so much so that they reject any and all prophets and revelation based solely on their belief that the Bible is the final word of God and that no more revelation will ever be given?

Is the Bible false? No it is not. Is it an Idol? No it is not.

Has the Bible BECOME an idol for some of them because of their overemphasis on it to the point that they block out other sources of truth? Yes, it has.

Apply the same thing to prophets.

Does God call prophets? Yes.

Are prophets Idols? No

Can these prophets BECOME Idols to specific individuals in the same manner as the bible? Of course, everything and anything can.

It is NOT depending on flesh to heed the words of God's prophets. It is possible to fall into that however, without knowing it until it is too late, and when you're at that point you are blinded by unbelief until the light of God opens your mind, at which point you are able to heed God's prophets in the manner we are supposed to.

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:Do you believe that God has done something to cause and prevent every member of the church from progressing beyond faith to knowledge? Has God stopped, slowed or halted the progression of every member of the church so that no one can be as spiritually advanced as the prophet or president of the church?

It sounds like you are saying that the Prophet if the church is greater than all of us and that he should have power and influence over us based soley on his priesthood and position in the priesthood. Is that what you are saying?

Been commanded by the prophet to do something does in no way remove our knowledge or ability to progress. If the prophet tells us that we need to go and fill a full time mission how does that stop your progression.
For example the age of missionaries was changed and it was refereed to as the start of the hastening of the work as we find in D$C88. Prophetic direction. Did you receive that revelation - did the spirit till you to do something else. What do we do we, we call the young men and woman in and hasten their preparation and send them on a mission - how does that hinder their spiritual advancement.
The prophets command us to repent and do many hard things - how does that hinder our progression. If the prophet commands you to leave an area - how does that hinder your progression. In fact a commandment was given just prior to the storm Katrina hitting land that the members must be evacuated. The Stake presidents and Bishops organised it. How did that hinder their salvation. I suppose you would want to go and fast and pray for 2 weeks before obeying - not a good idea. If every stake president and Bishop did the same - the church would completely fail in it's purpose.

I have a firm testimony of the prophet that he would not lead us astray - he commands I jump. If you think you have come to all knowledge an exceeded the wisdom of Christ that you no longer need a prophet, then you must be a translated being.

If you are shown that Joseph Smith himself said that something happens that you say DOESN'T happen, are you actually going to adjust your beliefs?


“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...”

- The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238

Yes, the people's minds were DARKENED because they "Followed the prophet too much/Depended on the prophet". So, are you going to tell me that this was only possible in 1842 and to the Jews but not in 2016?

Your progression can be hindered by your dependence on prophets, Joseph Smith said so. The Israelites were hindered because of their dependance on Moses, your own scriptures teach this.

Your progression can, and will be slowed or halted by your over-dependance on another man, and your progression will not resume until you learn the purpose of prophets and how to properly apply their words in your lives.
Your progression is halted because of a subconcience mindest that comes over the person that starts to depend on flesh. They end up with this belief that they will go to the Celestial Kingdom because of this special ordinance that they did, and they forget what God's grace is, and how they are saved by his Grace.

Of course, you, and everybody else will reject everything that is said that doesn't align with your set beliefs.

Using logic, you can determine that you do NOT know everything, and it would be unwise to continually reject all things that contradict your opinion, and you should take these things up with the Lord and ask the Lord how you can grow closer to him and how you can know if you are properly heeding the prophet's words without depending on flesh and having your mind darkened, just as your scriptures and your modern prophets have said can and has happened.

Good luck my friend.

Stahura wrote:

Serragon wrote:Everyone should heed the Lord, whether he speaks to you via prophets, the Spirit, or face to face.

It seems that many are having issues with the term "following the prophet" as they consider it to be hero-worship or being ruled by the arm of the flesh. To avoid this, they have adopted a philosophy that prophets are not needed and they you only need to the Spirit or Christ directly.

I agree that many worship the man instead of giving heed to the words Christ is giving us through him and that this is something that should be done away with, but that has nothing to do with whether prophets are used by the Lord and should be followed. Teaching that prophets are not needed and that following them is not doctrinal is simply wrong and sinful. When God speaks through his prophet, they must be followed.

The Lord uses prophets. He always has. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear...

Serragon, tell me something.

Have you seen those Christians who swear by the Bible, so much so that they reject any and all prophets and revelation based solely on their belief that the Bible is the final word of God and that no more revelation will ever be given?

Is the Bible false? No it is not. Is it an Idol? No it is not.

Has the Bible BECOME an idol for some of them because of their overemphasis on it to the point that they block out other sources of truth? Yes, it has.

Apply the same thing to prophets.

Does God call prophets? Yes.

Are prophets Idols? No

Can these prophets BECOME Idols to specific individuals in the same manner as the bible? Of course, everything and anything can.

It is NOT depending on flesh to heed the words of God's prophets. It is possible to fall into that however, without knowing it until it is too late, and when you're at that point you are blinded by unbelief until the light of God opens your mind, at which point you are able to heed God's prophets in the manner we are supposed to.

I'm not sure who you are talking about Stahura. I doubt casual members frequent LDSFF.

Do you not agree that when Nephi said it was time to leave, that it was "smart" for those who believed Nephi to leave with him? Do you not agree that it was "smart" for those who believed Brigham Young to leave with him?

I don't know anyone who worships our apostles and prophets. I know a lot who pay attention to what they say and try to do that. What is said, brings us closer to Christ.

On the other hand, I know some, like Isaiah, who promote the Church is in apostasy, so in effect, they have rejected our current Prophet and the apostles.

Gorman wrote:

Finrock wrote:"Follow the Prophet" for many, many Mormons implies doing whatever the priesthood leaders tell you to do, without question; questioning/disagreeing with a priesthood leader is wrong and ought not to be done or is apostasy; whatever The Prophet says is true. Prophet veneration/adoration is a real phenomenon.

Two things:

1) Following the prophet or your priesthood leader blindly is sometimes absolutely valid, when we are blind to the facts. At that point, we can either follow blindly, or stumble blindly. How often does an investigator or new convert, with almost no context, just have to blindly follow what they are being told? Quite often. How many times does a Bishop have to ask a member to do something for another member without telling them facts behind the situation? Quite often. Can a prophet alter a policy in a way that doesn't make sense? Sure. He is the one with access to every ward in the world. Maybe the policy addresses a problem your particular ward hasn't even begun to encounter yet.

2) If people are beginning to worship the prophet, then address that, and don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Let's say you are invited to a dinner with the prophet, and he says, "Pass the salt." One person passes the salt and the other 9 out of 10 people feel like they have sinned because they weren't able to follow the prophet by passing him the salt. Those people have a problem. But is the right answer to tell everyone to stop following the prophet? Absolutely not.

Let's say you and your mother are saved from a burning building by a firefighter. You mother hugs and kisses him. Every time he comes over to the house, she stands in his honor. She cries when she sees him. When he talks at a dinner party, she always turns and listens to him. Let's say you finally get sick of it. You tell her, "Mother, it was actually the taxpayer's dollar that paid for that firefighter. You shouldn't treat him with that much respect, the government is the one that deserves your respect." Isn't that just plain crazy? Sure, there is a line somewhere when extreme gratitude crosses over into worship. Can we perfectly tell where that line lies? No. Is that line in a different location for different people? Probably. Should we be the judge as to whether someone has crossed that line? Probably not.

Finrock wrote:"Follow the Prophet" implies that some mortal has superior ability to be connected with God over other mortals.

Yes and no. I wouldn't say that the Prophet is automatically the most righteous or most moral person on Earth. What sets the prophet apart from everyone else on the Earth is not his superior ability, but God's choice. So yes, the prophet has some special connection to God above that of all other mortals, but that is because God chooses it to be that way. Does that mean God never talks to anyone else? Of course not. Does that mean there are some things God will only tell his prophet and no one else? Scripture says yes.

Okay, so I have some time (and the ability) now to consider and answer your posts thoroughly. I appreciate you accepting my invitation. Btw, when I say consider my text as written, I was really saying is that if I write something, don't assume, take away, or add more than what is written. Of course we don't always know what someone means, but in those cases a chance to clarify would be appreciated and helpful. For an example, I've suggested in one post using training wheels as an analogy, stating that eventually we need to put away the training wheels and learn to ride our bike without the training wheels. Some responses I have gotten because of this analogy and the sentiment that it reflects, is that I am offended by prophets, that I feel like we should get rid of all prophets, or that I am saying that we should ignore the prophets. I'm saying one thing and others are changing what I'm saying to reflect something that I am not saying.

If I were to condense what I am saying in to one word, it would be "equality".

I start with this truth and start working outward. Why do I start this way? First and foremost it is because God revealed to me that I am equal to any mortal in value and in potential. This may not be a big deal to some, but for me it is. Having been severely abused as a child I did not believe this at all. I have felt inferior and worthless for much of my life. I believed for most of my life that I did not have the same access to God because I was such a horrible sinner and worthless. Jesus Christ completely shattered these false beliefs of mine. When I say equal, I mean I am neither superior or inferior to any mortal in value, in potential, and in access to God and all of His greatest gifts.

Second, as I started reading and studying the scriptures and the words of the prophets (notice my use of the prophets in my journey) I learned such things that God does not lie, neither does He change, and that God is not a respecter of persons. The Spirit witnessed to me very powerfully that these things are true. But, this one passage from the Lectures on Faith really opened my eyes of understanding:

LoF 23 wrote:23 But it is also necessary that men should have an idea that he is no respecter of persons; for with the idea of all the other excellencies in his character, and this one wanting, men could not exercise faith in him, because if he were a respecter of persons, they could not tell what their privileges were, nor how far they were authorized to exercise faith in him, or whether they were authorized to do it at all, but all must be confusion; but no sooner are the minds of men made acquainted with the truth on this point, that he is no respecter of persons, than they see that they have authority by faith to lay hold on eternal life the richest boon of heaven, because God is no respecter of persons, and that every man in every nation has an equal privilege.

I too once believed that those we recognized as prophets had some sort of special access to God which I did not. This passage blew that unbelief and false tradition away. I understood now that God does not respect persons. That even I, who once felt that I was worthless and a horrible sinner, had equal access to God and ALL of his richest blessings.

Now, if I take God at His word, without adding to or taking away from it, then it must be absolutely true that I, Finrock, can be a prophet, an apostle, a revelator, a seer, a God. If by exercising faith there was some rung on the ladder that I did not have access to, then God is a liar and I can't have confidence in a liar. Not one bit. I have the authority by faith (notice, the authority comes by faith, not by some man) to lay hold on every blessing and gift God has for His children. The Spirit tells me this is true and so do, by the way, most all of the holy prophets of God who have come before me or who currently exist.

Why is this important? Because we can't progress in our spiritual journey if we believe falsely that only a select group of men have special access to God or can obtain and exercise God's choicest blessings. We will feel inferior to some mortal which leads us to always go to them for direction, guidance, and instruction when God would have us, and in fact commands us, to come to Him.

I will stop for now and see what type of responses I get to this post.

-Finrock

Finrock wrote:Now, if I take God at His word, without adding to or taking away from it, then it must be absolutely true that I, Finrock, can be a prophet, an apostle, a revelator, a seer, a God. If by exercising faith there was some rung on the ladder that I did not have access to, then God is a liar and I can't have confidence in a liar. Not one bit. I have the authority by faith (notice, the authority comes by faith, not by some man) to lay hold on every blessing and gift God has for His children. The Spirit tells me this is true and so do, by the way, most all of the holy prophets of God who have come before me or who currently exist.

Why is this important? Because we can't progress in our spiritual journey if we believe falsely that only a select group of men have special access to God or can obtain and exercise God's choicest blessings. We will feel inferior to some mortal which leads us to always go to them for direction, guidance, and instruction when God would have us, and in fact commands us, to come to Him.

I will stop for now and see what type of responses I get to this post.

-Finrock

The sons of Mosiah:

3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.

You can't be an apostle, unless the Lord selects you to be. You can be a prophet in your own sphere of influence, but not outside it.

rewcox wrote:The sons of Mosiah:

3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.

You can't be an apostle, unless the Lord selects you to be.

This seems obvious to me. Are you saying something besides what is obviously true? The same can be said for being a prophet, or a seer, or a revelator. All good gifts come from God, or the Lord.

What point are you using the scripture to support?

There may also be the need to define an apostle, so we aren't unintentionally equivocating.

-Finrock

Finrock wrote:

rewcox wrote:The sons of Mosiah:

3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.

You can't be an apostle, unless the Lord selects you to be.

This seems obvious to me. Are you saying something besides what is obviously true? The same can be said for being a prophet, or a seer, or a revelator. All good gifts come from God, or the Lord.

What point are you using the scripture to support?

There may also be the need to define an apostle, so we aren't unintentionally equivocating.

-Finrock

You Included apostle in your list. The Lord selects a few for that calling, so I wouldn't include that in your list.

rewcox wrote:

Finrock wrote:

rewcox wrote:The sons of Mosiah:

3 But this is not all; they had given themselves to much prayer, and fasting; therefore they had the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation, and when they taught, they taught with power and authority of God.

You can't be an apostle, unless the Lord selects you to be.

This seems obvious to me. Are you saying something besides what is obviously true? The same can be said for being a prophet, or a seer, or a revelator. All good gifts come from God, or the Lord.

What point are you using the scripture to support?

There may also be the need to define an apostle, so we aren't unintentionally equivocating.

-Finrock

You Included apostle in your list. The Lord selects a few for that calling, so I wouldn't include that in your list.

D&C 121 wrote:34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Because God is a respecter of persons and only loves a few of His children and reserves His choice blessings to only a special few? No, it is...

D&C 121 wrote:35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

You seem to be saying that the chances of you being selected an apostle is very slim, so therefore you should just forget about that privilege. I suspect you are saying this because you believe that there can only be 15 apostles at a time and that being an apostle means that you lead the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Am I correct?

But, what is an apostle? What is it really? I already know what Mormon tradition believes, but what do the scriptures say? What did it mean anciently? What do you think and believe?

-Finrock

Finrock wrote:

rewcox wrote:

Finrock wrote:

rewcox wrote:The sons of Mosiah:


You can't be an apostle, unless the Lord selects you to be.

This seems obvious to me. Are you saying something besides what is obviously true? The same can be said for being a prophet, or a seer, or a revelator. All good gifts come from God, or the Lord.

What point are you using the scripture to support?

There may also be the need to define an apostle, so we aren't unintentionally equivocating.

-Finrock

You Included apostle in your list. The Lord selects a few for that calling, so I wouldn't include that in your list.

D&C 121 wrote:34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Because God is a respecter of persons and only loves a few of His children and reserves His choice blessings to only a special few? No, it is...

D&C 121 wrote:35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

You seem to be saying that the chances of you being selected an apostle is very slim, so therefore you should just forget about that privilege. I suspect you are saying this because you believe that there can only be 15 apostles at a time and that being an apostle means that you lead the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Am I correct?

But, what is an apostle? What is it really? I already know what Mormon tradition believes, but what do the scriptures say? What did it mean anciently? What do you think and believe?

-Finrock

Ok Finrock, show us the stuff, no need to play around.

rewcox wrote:

Amonhi wrote:Seeing that my previous post in this thread were ignored entirely and the points in them remain unaddressed, I have little hope for this post, but I will ask anyway...

For all those who support the term, "Follow the prophet" and believe that it a true doctrine of Christ, please help me to understand what you mean by "Follow the prophet".

What does that look like to you?

Let's put this down and see what you mean exactly. Which of the following statements match up to your definition/understanding of "Follow the Prophet":

1 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were God.
2 - Follow the prophet means to believe what the prophet teaches as if the prophet were God.
3 - Follow the Prophet means to worship the prophet as if the prophet were God.

4 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for obeying even when he is wrong.
5 - Follow the prophet means to believe the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for believing his teachings even when he is wrong.

6 - Follow the prophet means to give up your own thoughts, learning, study, revelation, inspiration and experience to accept whatever he says as true. It is to think what the prophet tells you to think and do what the prophet tells you to do.

7 - It means to do what the prophet does as in follow in his footsteps.

8 - It means to prayerfully consider what he teaches and requests knowing that at times you will accept and do and at other times you will not accept and not do.

9 - It means to place the prophet as the highest authority in your life, above the Holy Ghost and your personal revelation and the scriptures and every other authority from God.

10 - ???? Please Define...

Please select as many of these as you feel apply or correct them so that they do apply or write your own so that I can understand correctly what you are endorsing.

Thanks,
Amonhi

Here you go:
And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

rewcox wrote:That sure sounds like follow to me.

I recall an OT story about a prophet sent on an errand by the Lord in another kingdom, maybe a prophet from Judea going to Israel after the kingdom split after Solomon's death. Anyway this prophet was told to not eat any bread in this other kingdom, but wait til he arrived home. So he delivers his message, but this other prophet he meets on his way home convinced him to stop and rest and eat before he gets home. This first prophet reasons it's OK because this other prophet was evidently known as a prophet.

He's tired and hungry, so he obeys this other prophet. Yet he failed to inquire of the LORD himself. As a prophet, it was his duty. but he left it up to this other prophet. So afterward, he leaves to complete his journey home, but a lion kills him. It is in one of the Kings or Chronicals, maybe both. I'd look it up, but I doubt it would have any more impact anyway if I quoted it

rewcox wrote:

Finrock wrote:

rewcox wrote:

Finrock wrote:
This seems obvious to me. Are you saying something besides what is obviously true? The same can be said for being a prophet, or a seer, or a revelator. All good gifts come from God, or the Lord.

What point are you using the scripture to support?

There may also be the need to define an apostle, so we aren't unintentionally equivocating.

-Finrock

You Included apostle in your list. The Lord selects a few for that calling, so I wouldn't include that in your list.

D&C 121 wrote:34 Behold, there are many called, but few are chosen. And why are they not chosen?

Because God is a respecter of persons and only loves a few of His children and reserves His choice blessings to only a special few? No, it is...

D&C 121 wrote:35 Because their hearts are set so much upon the things of this world, and aspire to the honors of men, that they do not learn this one lesson—

36 That the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven, and that the powers of heaven cannot be controlled nor handled only upon the principles of righteousness.

You seem to be saying that the chances of you being selected an apostle is very slim, so therefore you should just forget about that privilege. I suspect you are saying this because you believe that there can only be 15 apostles at a time and that being an apostle means that you lead the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Am I correct?

But, what is an apostle? What is it really? I already know what Mormon tradition believes, but what do the scriptures say? What did it mean anciently? What do you think and believe?

-Finrock

Ok Finrock, show us the stuff, no need to play around.

I'm surprised by your response.

To address your post...I'm desiring and requesting your input. I don't necessarily have all of the answers to the questions I am asking. I have some ideas but I have no prepared point and I don't have a full knowledge of these things. I could be wrong! I would like to be sure and make it clear that we are conversing/discussing and that I am not just dictating.

I reserve the right to learn things from your comments/thoughts/ideas. ;)

-Finrock

Rachael wrote:

rewcox wrote:

Amonhi wrote:Seeing that my previous post in this thread were ignored entirely and the points in them remain unaddressed, I have little hope for this post, but I will ask anyway...

For all those who support the term, "Follow the prophet" and believe that it a true doctrine of Christ, please help me to understand what you mean by "Follow the prophet".

What does that look like to you?

Let's put this down and see what you mean exactly. Which of the following statements match up to your definition/understanding of "Follow the Prophet":

1 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were God.
2 - Follow the prophet means to believe what the prophet teaches as if the prophet were God.
3 - Follow the Prophet means to worship the prophet as if the prophet were God.

4 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for obeying even when he is wrong.
5 - Follow the prophet means to believe the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for believing his teachings even when he is wrong.

6 - Follow the prophet means to give up your own thoughts, learning, study, revelation, inspiration and experience to accept whatever he says as true. It is to think what the prophet tells you to think and do what the prophet tells you to do.

7 - It means to do what the prophet does as in follow in his footsteps.

8 - It means to prayerfully consider what he teaches and requests knowing that at times you will accept and do and at other times you will not accept and not do.

9 - It means to place the prophet as the highest authority in your life, above the Holy Ghost and your personal revelation and the scriptures and every other authority from God.

10 - ???? Please Define...

Please select as many of these as you feel apply or correct them so that they do apply or write your own so that I can understand correctly what you are endorsing.

Thanks,
Amonhi

Here you go:
And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

rewcox wrote:That sure sounds like follow to me.

I recall an OT story about a prophet sent on an errand by the Lord in another kingdom, maybe a prophet from Judea going to Israel after the kingdom split after Solomon's death. Anyway this prophet was told to not eat any bread in this other kingdom, but wait til he arrived home. So he delivers his message, but this other prophet he meets on his way home convinced him to stop and rest and eat before he gets home. This first prophet reasons it's OK because this other prophet was evidently known as a prophet.

He's tired and hungry, so he obeys this other prophet. Yet he failed to inquire of the LORD himself. As a prophet, it was his duty. but he left it up to this other prophet. So afterward, he leaves to complete his journey home, but a lion kills him. It is in one of the Kings or Chronicals, maybe both. I'd look it up, but I doubt it would have any more impact anyway if I quoted it

Amonhi addressed this in a post above. It is in 1 Kings 13.

-Finrock

Thanks, I guess I skimmed over his post. I'll go back, and thank him for it

It's not a blessing (at least temporally) to get killed by a lion. But following a prophet even if he is in err can bring one blessings?

No, it brings destruction.

There is one prophet, for absolute certain, all, at this time, as Moroni stated to Joseph Smith, soon after him all, yes all, must hearken unto or be destroyed, and that prophet is Jesus Christ. That is doctrinal and written and testified to over and over again. (See Joseph Smith History 1:40)

As far as how to judge perfectly of prophets, in the latter days, (See Jeremiah 23:20), the LORD gave instructions, on exactly what his will was that you were to do--- (See Jeremiah 23:37)

"Thus shalt thou say unto the prophet, What hath the LORD answered thee? and, What hath the LORD spoken?"

Why would any fight against the instructions of the LORD?

Simply ask those two questions, and get your answer to them.

Enoch, Moses, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, Nephi, Mormon, Moroni, and Joseph Smith, all would be happy to answer those two questions.

Ask of any of the heads of Ephraim today, those same two questions, and therein will be your answer the LORD commanded you to seek.

I post this with true intent, and with a sincere heart, that when you follow and hearken unto the counsel of the LORD, he will guide you to the truth.

These two questions he commanded you ask, after saying and having recorded as doctrine and scripture---
(See Jeremiah 23:16)

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD."

There is cousel given, on this exact subject, of the posted topic, I have shown you what I have seen written, and it is there for all to read and judge righteous judgement, following the instructions given of the LORD.

You are all free agents unto yourselves, to seek for those answers, to those two questions or not.

Consider perfectly, it is known as widom and understanding and intelligence, to hearken unto the LORD; it would be good "if" all would.

♡ ♡

rewcox wrote:

Stahura wrote:

Serragon wrote:Everyone should heed the Lord, whether he speaks to you via prophets, the Spirit, or face to face.

It seems that many are having issues with the term "following the prophet" as they consider it to be hero-worship or being ruled by the arm of the flesh. To avoid this, they have adopted a philosophy that prophets are not needed and they you only need to the Spirit or Christ directly.

I agree that many worship the man instead of giving heed to the words Christ is giving us through him and that this is something that should be done away with, but that has nothing to do with whether prophets are used by the Lord and should be followed. Teaching that prophets are not needed and that following them is not doctrinal is simply wrong and sinful. When God speaks through his prophet, they must be followed.

The Lord uses prophets. He always has. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear...

Serragon, tell me something.

Have you seen those Christians who swear by the Bible, so much so that they reject any and all prophets and revelation based solely on their belief that the Bible is the final word of God and that no more revelation will ever be given?

Is the Bible false? No it is not. Is it an Idol? No it is not.

Has the Bible BECOME an idol for some of them because of their overemphasis on it to the point that they block out other sources of truth? Yes, it has.

Apply the same thing to prophets.

Does God call prophets? Yes.

Are prophets Idols? No

Can these prophets BECOME Idols to specific individuals in the same manner as the bible? Of course, everything and anything can.

It is NOT depending on flesh to heed the words of God's prophets. It is possible to fall into that however, without knowing it until it is too late, and when you're at that point you are blinded by unbelief until the light of God opens your mind, at which point you are able to heed God's prophets in the manner we are supposed to.

I'm not sure who you are talking about Stahura. I doubt casual members frequent LDSFF.

Do you not agree that when Nephi said it was time to leave, that it was "smart" for those who believed Nephi to leave with him? Do you not agree that it was "smart" for those who believed Brigham Young to leave with him?

I don't know anyone who worships our apostles and prophets. I know a lot who pay attention to what they say and try to do that. What is said, brings us closer to Christ.

On the other hand, I know some, like Isaiah, who promote the Church is in apostasy, so in effect, they have rejected our current Prophet and the apostles.

Rewcox, I love ya man, but come back and talk to me when you want to address the scriptures and quotes from Joseph Smith that I give you.

Ouch, huge contradiction in Brother Snuffer's teachings here. I guess he used to believe that we needed the Apostles and Prophet who were called and ordained to lead the Church and that we wouldn't outgrow that need. Yikes, come a long way since then, just 8 years ago.

Jr. Snuffer, Denver C. (2011-01-08). The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil (pp. 395-396). Mill Creek Press. Kindle Edition.

Having a witness of Christ as resurrected Lord gives you an apostolic witness. However, it does not make you an Apostle. There have been many who received the Second Comforter who have never held the office of Apostle. Recall that Paul recounts a list which includes “above five hundred” who saw Christ between His resurrection and ascension. (327) And in Paul’s list he omits mention of Mary, who saw Him first in the Garden outside His tomb. From the lengthy list of these witnesses, only twelve were Apostles at any given time, and only fourteen of them were ever Apostles. Similarly, in the visit among the Nephites discussed in this work, over two-thousand five-hundred saw Him the first day. Many more, perhaps thousands, saw Him the next day. Yet from among all these witnesses there were only twelve chosen as Apostles. The witness is one thing, and the priesthood office is another. For ordination to the Apostleship, the requirement has always been the same: “And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” (Heb. 5: 4.) So it remains today. No one can assume any right, office, or entitlement no matter what their testimony or experiences. Unless they are called, an apostolic witness is simply a matter of individual testimony and not a point of public privilege. It remains a private matter. (328) Although you may be asked by the Spirit to bear testimony from time to time in selective settings and before selective audiences, you are not suddenly called to do more.

Nor does possession of such a testimony make you greater than the Lord’s Apostles. Christ’s instruction on the status of His called, ordained and sustained Apostles is clear: “Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants;” (3 Ne. 12: 1.) And in our own day the instruction has been repeated: “And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;” (D&C 1: 14.) It is a perilous thing to attempt to put yourself between the Lord’s Apostles and the Lord. He called them and He expects our sustaining faith and confidence in them. None of us will ever progress to the point that we do not need Apostles and Prophets to guide us. So, if you assume you can acquire independence and superiority from obtaining such a witness you should disabuse yourself of that notion. Our salvation is related to the heed and diligence we give to the Lord’s anointed ministers. And evil speaking of them, assuming superiority to them, and trying to bring others away from them will inevitably lead to your condemnation.

Footnotes:
327 1 Cor. 15: 4–8: “And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.”
328 If the author had not been asked to write this work, the author’s own experience would have remained a private matter, as it was for years before the writing of this book.

Jesef wrote:Ouch, huge contradiction in Brother Snuffer's teachings here. I guess he used to believe that we needed the Apostles and Prophet who were called and ordained to lead the Church and that we wouldn't outgrow that need. Yikes, come a long way since then, just 8 years ago.

Jr. Snuffer, Denver C. (2011-01-08). The Second Comforter: Conversing With the Lord Through the Veil (pp. 395-396). Mill Creek Press. Kindle Edition.

Having a witness of Christ as resurrected Lord gives you an apostolic witness. However, it does not make you an Apostle. There have been many who received the Second Comforter who have never held the office of Apostle. Recall that Paul recounts a list which includes “above five hundred” who saw Christ between His resurrection and ascension. (327) And in Paul’s list he omits mention of Mary, who saw Him first in the Garden outside His tomb. From the lengthy list of these witnesses, only twelve were Apostles at any given time, and only fourteen of them were ever Apostles. Similarly, in the visit among the Nephites discussed in this work, over two-thousand five-hundred saw Him the first day. Many more, perhaps thousands, saw Him the next day. Yet from among all these witnesses there were only twelve chosen as Apostles. The witness is one thing, and the priesthood office is another. For ordination to the Apostleship, the requirement has always been the same: “And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.” (Heb. 5: 4.) So it remains today. No one can assume any right, office, or entitlement no matter what their testimony or experiences. Unless they are called, an apostolic witness is simply a matter of individual testimony and not a point of public privilege. It remains a private matter. (328) Although you may be asked by the Spirit to bear testimony from time to time in selective settings and before selective audiences, you are not suddenly called to do more.

Nor does possession of such a testimony make you greater than the Lord’s Apostles. Christ’s instruction on the status of His called, ordained and sustained Apostles is clear: “Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants;” (3 Ne. 12: 1.) And in our own day the instruction has been repeated: “And the arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people;” (D&C 1: 14.) It is a perilous thing to attempt to put yourself between the Lord’s Apostles and the Lord. He called them and He expects our sustaining faith and confidence in them. None of us will ever progress to the point that we do not need Apostles and Prophets to guide us. So, if you assume you can acquire independence and superiority from obtaining such a witness you should disabuse yourself of that notion. Our salvation is related to the heed and diligence we give to the Lord’s anointed ministers. And evil speaking of them, assuming superiority to them, and trying to bring others away from them will inevitably lead to your condemnation.

Footnotes:
327 1 Cor. 15: 4–8: “And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.”
328 If the author had not been asked to write this work, the author’s own experience would have remained a private matter, as it was for years before the writing of this book.

Interesting and it shows what appears to be purposeful deception on Snuffers part.

But, what does this information and Snuffer have to do with the topic at hand? What is it with Snuffer being mentioned so much? Am I missing something? I'm not saying it's purposeful or malicious, but bringing him up is a distraction because it seems that what Snuffer teaches or believes is irrelevant to what is being discussed. Im not trying to be rude, but who cares what Snuffer believes? Again, unless I'm missing something?

-Finrock

Again, referring to rewcox (who started this thread) and it's been a repeated issue (FTP) with those who follow Snuffer:

rewcox wrote:
On the other hand, I know some, like Isaiah, who promote the Church is in apostasy, so in effect, they have rejected our current Prophet and the apostles.

So, in effect, by starting this thread rewcox was addressing the audience that opposes this idea, or doctrine as he put it, and that most notably includes the "Snufferites" or Remnant/Preserve-the-Restoration movement.

Hopefully that clarifies.

Jesef wrote:Again, referring to rewcox (who started this thread) and it's been a repeated issue (FTP) with those who follow Snuffer:

rewcox wrote:
On the other hand, I know some, like Isaiah, who promote the Church is in apostasy, so in effect, they have rejected our current Prophet and the apostles.

So, in effect, by starting this thread rewcox was addressing the audience that opposes this idea, or doctrine as he put it, and that most notably includes the "Snufferites" or Remnant/Preserve-the-Restoration movement.

Hopefully that clarifies.

So this was in effect a passive aggressive thread against Snuffer and those that follow him? And a sincere discussion on this topic was never on the agenda?

-Finrock

There are two ways we can discuss progression: personal progression and helping others progress. With that in mind:

Finrock wrote:When I say equal, I mean I am neither superior or inferior to any mortal in value, in potential, and in access to God and all of His greatest gifts.

Yes. I agree wholeheartedly here. When discussing our personal progression, we are all equal in value, potential, and access to God.

Finrock wrote:I too once believed that those we recognized as prophets had some sort of special access to God which I did not.

The thing about prophets is not that they have some special, exclusive access to God, but they have a special job from God. This is where other's progression comes into play. God has put His prophet in charge of other's progression. Normally, we worry about our own progression and the progression of our family. Sure, we preach the gospel when we can, but that is just an invitation. We don't have authority over a random stranger's progression. The prophet does. This isn't necessarily because he is special (although, prophets often are special in many ways) or because he has exclusive access to God (although, prophets often do have close access).

Prophets have authority over other men and women because God has given them that authority. The prophet as an individual is not special, per se, but it is their calling that is special.

Finrock wrote:Now, if I take God at His word, without adding to or taking away from it, then it must be absolutely true that I, Finrock, can be a prophet, an apostle, a revelator, a seer, a God. If by exercising faith there was some rung on the ladder that I did not have access to, then God is a liar and I can't have confidence in a liar.

I think you are simply mixing up personal progression with authority over other's progression. Yes, you, Finrock, can receive any personal blessings or spiritual gifts that a prophet, apostle, revelator, seer, or a god could have. No, Finrock, you are not entitled to the same authority over others that a prophet or apostle has.

If you stick to saying that we are all entitled to the same spiritual blessings or gifts that prophets and apostles are entitled to, I don't think anyone would have any trouble with what you say. I think the trouble occurs when your words seem to advocate that prophets and apostles do not have any authority over you or me. This is the fallacy.

It's not a fallacy. They are not keepers of the gate of Heaven. Jesus is.

Rachael wrote:It's not a fallacy. They are not keepers of the gate of Heaven. Jesus is.

I didn't say prophets are the keepers of the gate of Heaven. God is still the ultimate authority, but that doesn't mean he can't delegate. God delegates to Jesus, who delegates to others.

Prophets are given authority over the salvation of other men and women. That is a simple fact of scripture. Here is the first one that popped up. There are hundreds of others.

1 Nephi 12:9 wrote: 9 And he said unto me: Thou rememberest the twelve apostles of the Lamb? Behold they are they who shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel; wherefore, the twelve ministers of thy seed shall be judged of them; for ye are of the house of Israel.

Stahura wrote: If you are shown that Joseph Smith himself said that something happens that you say DOESN'T happen, are you actually going to adjust your beliefs?


“President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel – said the Lord had declared by the Prophet [Ezekiel], that the people should each stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish Church – that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls – applied it to the present state [1842] of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints – said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...”

- The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 237-238

Yes, the people's minds were DARKENED because they "Followed the prophet too much/Depended on the prophet". So, are you going to tell me that this was only possible in 1842 and to the Jews but not in 2016?

Your progression can be hindered by your dependence on prophets, Joseph Smith said so. The Israelites were hindered because of their dependance on Moses, your own scriptures teach this.

Your progression can, and will be slowed or halted by your over-dependance on another man, and your progression will not resume until you learn the purpose of prophets and how to properly apply their words in your lives.
Your progression is halted because of a subconcience mindest that comes over the person that starts to depend on flesh. They end up with this belief that they will go to the Celestial Kingdom because of this special ordinance that they did, and they forget what God's grace is, and how they are saved by his Grace.

Of course, you, and everybody else will reject everything that is said that doesn't align with your set beliefs.

Using logic, you can determine that you do NOT know everything, and it would be unwise to continually reject all things that contradict your opinion, and you should take these things up with the Lord and ask the Lord how you can grow closer to him and how you can know if you are properly heeding the prophet's words without depending on flesh and having your mind darkened, just as your scriptures and your modern prophets have said can and has happened.

Good luck my friend.

Taking one quote and misinterpreting it does not change the fundamental doctrine that G_d calls prophets and we need to obey them. Trusting in your own flesh and leaning unto your own understanding is what constitutes depending on the arm of flesh, harkening to the prophet is not relying on the arm of the flesh again making a straw man argument and then beating it up to prove yourself correct.

Your understanding of the quote below is a prefect example of only seeing what you want to see.
said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall – that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves...”

Their minds were darkened because they neglected their duty and relied on the Prophet to do all the work for them and make all the decisions for them. Depending on the prophet is different to obeying him - JS is talking about a different precept.
Prophets never make all the decisions for you it is not in their nature i.e Joseph Smith "teach people correct principles and let them govern themselves". But when the Prophet gives counsel and commands one must obey or be punished by the G_d that called the Prophet. One also has to follow the principles taught by the prophet and receive correction from him when we stray.

To say those that follow the prophet are brain dead as the prophet makes all the decisions for them is crazy the membership of the church is in the millions - in person I have never even met the current prophet or heard him speak. Counsel and commandments given in GC and ensign as well as what is filtered down from the Area Presidency to Stake and ward level is not been darkened in you mind or relying on the prophet and neglecting to do your duty.
Yes the quote is not quiet applicable today as the church is too big, might be applicable to some people who rely to heavily on the Bishop to make all the decisions for them, my years in the church I have encountered very few such people, but thousands who obey the Prophet and their lives are blessed.

Rely on your own flesh and disobey the prophet at your own peril as for me an my house - follow the prophet.

Finrock wrote: If I were to condense what I am saying in to one word, it would be "equality".
-Finrock

Your understanding is wrong.
First it is true that we all have equal ability/right to progress and return to Heavenly Father and be exalted.
But we are not equal in this life. Yes G_d loves us equally...

We do not come to earth with equal talents and abilities, or gifts of the spirit or callings. Yes let the head not say it has no need of the feet. But those that say we have no need to follow the prophet are saying the feet have no need of the head. As some have all the gifts given to them. and not everyone is called as a prophet.

To say we have equal ability to prophecy is not true not everyone has the gift of prophecy - yes male and female can have the gift but it is not given to all, the same with gift of knowledge - we do not all have the same capacity of understanding knowledge and widsom, we all have different ability that we might work together.

Abrah 3:22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

Jeremiah 1:5
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, I would that ye should always remember, and always retain in your minds what those gifts are, that are given unto the church.
11 For all have not every gift given unto them; for there are many gifts, and to every man is given a gift by the Spirit of God.
12 To some is given one, and to some is given another, that all may be profited thereby.
13 To some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.
14 To others it is given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.
15 And again, to some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know the differences of administration, as it will be pleasing unto the same Lord, according as the Lord will, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men.
16 And again, it is given by the Holy Ghost to some to know the diversities of operations, whether they be of God, that the manifestations of the Spirit may be given to every man to profit withal.
17 And again, verily I say unto you, to some is given, by the Spirit of God, the word of wisdom.
18 To another is given the word of knowledge, that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge.
19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;
20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.
21 And again, to some is given the working of miracles;
22 And to others it is given to prophesy;
23 And to others the discerning of spirits.
24 And again, it is given to some to speak with tongues;
25 And to another is given the interpretation of tongues.
26 And all these gifts come from God, for the benefit of the children of God.
27 And unto the bishop of the church, and unto such as God shall appoint and ordain to watch over the church and to be elders unto the church, are to have it given unto them to discern all those gifts lest there shall be any among you professing and yet be not of God.
28 And it shall come to pass that he that asketh in Spirit shall receive in Spirit;
29 That unto some it may be given to have all those gifts, that there may be a head, in order that every member may be profited thereby.