LDS Freedom Forum

Finrock wrote:

Gorman wrote:

Finrock wrote:Let me state my point more clearly: The direction that the Spirit/Christ gives to each individual trumps the direction given to them by ANY mortal.

I hope and pray that I always have the courage to follow the Spirit regardless of what others or those around me (no matter who they are) are saying or doing.

I don't put my faith in titles or mortals. I just don't. I have in the past, but not anymore. I've found a sure foundation that CANNOT fail, and that is Jesus Christ.

-Finrock

Let me explain why this point is fine in principle, but absolutely disastrous in practice, and a horrible, hellish mess when preached or advocated to others.

In principle: Yes, God speaks to us through the spirit. If we receive the spirit correctly, then all are edified. God speaks to his prophet. If the prophet receives the spirit correctly, then all are edified. If both I and the prophet are doing things right, there is not problem. There is no conflict.

In practice: God speaks to us through the spirit, and we flub it up. Common flubs: The spirit tells us something, and we immediately assume it is valid for everyone; the spirit tells us something is going to happen in the future, and we immediately assume it will happen tomorrow, or for sure by next week; the spirit tells us we should pursue a plan we have been muddling over in our mind for some time, and we immediately assume the spirit said our plan will go exactly as written on paper; the spirit testifies of a particular truth in a book we are reading, and we immediately assume every last word in the book is doctrine. This happens all the time. If it never happens to you, then congratulations. Either you are on a higher plane than the rest of us, or you are wonderfully innocent. Recognize the rest of the world is struggling to separate what the spirit is actually saying from our own hopes, dreams, ideas, wants, and misconceptions.

Humans hear what they want to hear. It is a simple fact. It takes great effort to hear what we don't want to hear. When my kids ask if they can play video games, a "maybe later" is happily interpreted as an immediate "yes". Humans also tend to question themselves very last. When I catch my kids playing video games, what is their defense? "But you said we could." They think I am in error, not them.

When preached: When you preach to one and all that they shouldn't listen to anyone but that little voice in their head, which may or may not be under the influence of the spirit all the time, can't you see the horrible consequences? Its like if you went to the community pool, took a 3-year-old and threw him in the deep end. When the life-guard saves the kid and then starts yelling at you, you say, "Well, I'm a great swimmer. I don't need a lifeguard anymore, so they don't need one either." Super reckless, apart from the fact that we all need lifeguards. Even the best swimmer in the world can drown if they eat one too many chili-dogs before jumping in.

Anyway, I'm not saying your own spiritual path is way off track. Frankly, I don't know. But what you are preaching is poison. The swimming lessons are already here and functioning. We have our lifeguards. Yes, eventually people will become less dependent on the lifeguards. But please, don't fire the lifeguards and start tossing kids, old ladies, and chili-dog-eating gluttons in the deep end.

Gorman, I intend to respond later, but before we get started in this I'd like to set some ground rules and make some promises to you. First, lets not contend/fight/argue. Lets make this a discussion with the purpose of coming together in unity of understanding and faith, not as two competitors trying to prove their points and/or win a contest.

I promise you that I am sincere. I promise you that I will treat you and your posts fairly. I promise you that I am teachable. I promise you that I will only teach you things that I know by experience and if I don't know it and only think it/believe it/etc., that I will make that clear. I promise you that I will be as objective as I possibly can be. I promise you that I have no other objective in this conversation other than to bring about The Good. I promise to give you the benefit of the doubt.

I don't care about what others think of me. I'm not here to be popular or to get a bunch of thanks or to have someone stroke my ego (I'm not implying anything about you, just making my own intentions/feelings/desires clear). I have no following or group that I am trying to impress. I have no motives outside of being a good man.

I am a fallible man. I will and do make mistakes. I ask that you be sincere. I ask that you be teachable. I ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt and be charitable towards my weakness. I ask that you treat me fairly. I ask that you remain as objective as you can. I ask that you don't make assumptions about me. I ask that you deal with my words and/or my texts as written.

Do you accept this invitation and can we proceed forward in this spirit?

-Finrock

Sure. We can move forward. Although, I can't promise much free time to respond on my end.

If I ever say anything that looks like I'm trying to pick a fight, know that I'm not. I never intend to be contentious. I'm a PhD physicist though, so I can't say I have the greatest social aptitude score. Sometimes I just say stuff and only realize it might be considered offensive about the time the other person gets mad.

Also, text or words as written are horribly inadequate. Sure, I try to give the benefit of the doubt, but we all misread each other all the time. That is the nature of language in general and written language more especially.

Here are my premises.

"Follow the Prophet" is not scriptural. "Follow the Prophet" for many, many Mormons implies doing whatever the priesthood leaders tell you to do, without question; questioning/disagreeing with a priesthood leader is wrong and ought not to be done or is apostasy; whatever The Prophet says is true. Prophet veneration/adoration is a real phenomenon. "Follow the Prophet" implies that some mortal has superior ability to be connected with God over other mortals.

Out of time for now. I might revise this later or add to it. But, this is a starting point and things for others to consider in the meantime for those who are interested in an actual discussion and not mere assertions/assumptions/contentions or the like.

-Finrock

Contemplator wrote:

freedomforall wrote:Why are some people so against following a true prophet of the Lord? Haven't they read the Book of Mormon and learned for themselves that this is a part of coming unto Christ?

In my experience, there are at least two possibilities when somebody disagrees with what I am saying. One is that I am wrong. If I am thoroughly convinced that what I am trying to communicate is correct, then I need to acknowledge that I may not be saying a correct idea in a correct manner.

For example, the idea of hearkening to prophets in order to come to Christ is likely acceptable to everyone on this thread. But, the literal words, "follow the prophet" are not in the scriptures. So, it may be that while "follow the prophet" could be used as shorthand for a correct idea, it may also be used to express a blind dependance on man to the exclusion of Christ.

I learn a lot when I try to listen to others as if they are thoughtful and have good intentions. Often what I learn is that I am not communicating my thoughts as well as I think I am. And usually my understanding is improved when I listen to others as if they are trying to communicate ideas that are worth listening to.

Follw the prophet is not in scripture, true. But, "they rejected the prophets" is. So what does this say about what happens when we snub the prophets?

1 Nephi 19:13
13 And as for those who are at Jerusalem, saith the prophet, they shall be scourged by all people, because they crucify the God of Israel, and turn their hearts aside, rejecting signs and wonders, and the power and glory of the God of Israel.

Moroni 8:29
29 And after rejecting so great a knowledge, my son, they must perish soon, unto the fulfilling of the prophecies which were spoken by the prophets, as well as the words of our Savior himself.

Ether 11:2
2 And it came to pass that the prophets were rejected by the people, and they fled unto Com for protection, for the people sought to destroy them.

JST, Mark 7:10
10 Full well is it written of you, by the prophets whom ye have rejected.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:21
21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

Doctrine and Covenants 138:32
32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

2 Nephi 27:5
5 For behold, the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep. For behold, ye have closed your eyes, and ye have rejected the prophets; and your rulers, and the seers hath he covered because of your iniquity.

1 Nephi 3:18
18 For behold, they have rejected the words of the prophets. Wherefore, if my father should dwell in the land after he hath been commanded to flee out of the land, behold, he would also perish. Wherefore, it must needs be that he flee out of the land.

2 Nephi 25:18
18 Wherefore, he shall bring forth his words unto them, which words shall judge them at the last day, for they shall be given them for the purpose of convincing them of the true Messiah, who was rejected by them; and unto the convincing of them that they need not look forward any more for a Messiah to come, for there should not any come, save it should be a false Messiah which should deceive the people; for there is save one Messiah spoken of by the prophets, and that Messiah is he who should be rejected of the Jews.

1 Nephi 7:14
14 For behold, the Spirit of the Lord ceaseth soon to strive with them; for behold, they have rejected the prophets, and Jeremiah have they cast into prison. And they have sought to take away the life of my father, insomuch that they have driven him out of the land.

Jacob 6:8
8 Behold, will ye reject these words? Will ye reject the words of the prophets; and will ye reject all the words which have been spoken concerning Christ, after so many have spoken concerning him; and deny the good word of Christ, and the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost, and quench the Holy Spirit, and make a mock of the great plan of redemption, which hath been laid for you?

So does the idea of following a prophet really need to be spelled out? Sheesh!

I'm sorry, but for those trying to split hairs and say just the opposite of what scriptures either outright teaches or implies is mere foolishness. This I know by the Holy Ghost.

No one can be justified in rejecting, scoffing, mocking or pushing aside the prophets of God and still think they will be exalted.

Kitkat wrote:Interestingly enough we belong to a religion which actively seeks to convert persons of all faiths and we ask people to listen to the little voice in their heads when they decide to accept baptism. This could be and most likely is seen as reckless to outsiders. We ask converts to throw out the experienced voice of their pastor, their parent, or anyone else and follow their personal promptings. The church does actively encourage this vein of thought for converts. Just something to consider.

I'm pretty sure I disagree here. We should not encourage investigators to listen exclusively to the little voice in their heads. I don't think the church does this either. The church encourages people to read the scriptures to test whether their inspiration is correct. The church encourages people to talk to other members. They require parental permission for minors and spousal permission from married investigators. And I would suspect a reprimand would be in order if a missionary tries to get an adult investigator to stop talking to parents or even their pastor out of fear of what they might say. The scriptures back this up.

1 John 4:1 wrote: 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

If we tell investigators to not test the spirit, then we are setting them up for future heartache. If they can figure out the balance between spirit, scripture, prophet, pastor, missionary, parents, spouse, and friends before they are baptized, they have a healthy start.

Kitkat wrote:You make some good points about life guards. They most definitely have their place, but I have never seen a life guard ask people to follow them into the water and do everything they do. Instead people who feel confident they can swim enter the water of their own free will and begin to swim as they please and the life guards are there watching to help swimmers who begin to struggle. Granted eating too many chile dogs changes everything

Life guards absolutely go out into the water and ask people to do everything they do . . . during a swimming lesson. Sure life guards just sit and observe during free swim, but even then, they still require people to do things, often after a loud whistle: no horseplay, no running, don't swim next to the diving board, children must be accompanied by an adult, or you sir, have had too many chili-dogs. Most of the time, the reasoning behind these rules and interjections are obvious, but sometimes they aren't. "Everyone out of the pool," is one example. Are the lifeguards just taking a break? Is it adult-only swim? Did someone vomit in the pool somewhere? Or are they testing the water for that swimming pool disease we heard rumors about? Most of the time we don't find out. Is it in our best interest to still get out of the pool? Yes.

Sure, experienced members of the church should not be as dependent on general authorities or local leaders as the new convert. That doesn't mean we can ignore their whistle when it blows.

Finrock wrote:

freedomforall wrote:

Finrock wrote:

freedomforall wrote: See: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/robinson ... atonement/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And this 1992 Ensign article: Believing Christ

Also get Stephen's book under the same title.

No one has to read this, however, if there are any readers out there that want to know about the partnership I inferred prior to this post, please check this out:

Becoming One
"Perfection comes through the Atonement of Christ. We become one with him, with a perfect being. And as we become one, there is a merger. Some of my students are studying business, and they understand it better if I talk in business terms. You take a small bankrupt firm that’s about ready to go under and merge it with a corporate giant. What happens? Their assets and liabilities flow together, and the new entity that is created is solvent.

It’s like when Janet and I got married. I was overdrawn; Janet had money in the bank. By virtue of making that commitment, of entering into that covenant relationship of marriage with my wife, we became a joint account. No longer was there an I, and no longer a she—now it was we. My liabilities and her assets flowed into each other, and for the first time in months I was in the black.

Spiritually, this is what happens when we enter into the covenant relationship with our Savior. We have liabilities, he has assets. He proposes to us a covenant relationship. I use the word “propose” on purpose because it is a marriage of a spiritual sort that is being proposed. That is why he is called the Bridegroom. This covenant relationship is so intimate that it can be described as a marriage. I become one with Christ, and as partners we work together for my salvation and my exaltation. My liabilities and his assets flow into each other. I do all that I can do, and he does what I cannot yet do. The two of us together are perfect."
.............................................................................................................................................
Now, if any one of us break that partnership or merger, Christ is then under no obligation to save them. Otherwise, the quitter lets the Savior do all the work and becomes a slave, not the head partner.

Do you get a greater understanding, Finrock?

freedomforall,

The scriptures you've quoted are great. The article was pretty good, although I think the author has some ideas that are off. However, at the end of the day, in my opinion you aren't justified in judging Robert Sinclair the way that you did and neither are you justified in mocking and belittling him. All of these posts just seem like smoke and mirrors.

I believe Robert Sinclair is a good man and is trying his best to love and worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience. I think you have a problem with him, got frustrated at him, and are trying to use the gospel of Jesus Christ to justify treating him poorly. Again, kinda lame in my opinion.

If you want to have a sincere conversation in the future about the United Order, tithing, the atonement, etc. that's not tainted with prejudices or assumptions about Robert Sinclair or anyone for that matter, I'm happy to engage. You often have some really good insights and from what I can gather you have experiences in life that can really help others. Right now, this seems fruitless. I'm not offended and I still respect you, I just don't want to perpetuate anything negative any further.

-Finrock

You're entitled to your opinion, Finrock. And you are correct...engaging with you is fruitless, especially when you make rash statements about my knowledge and how it is acquired. You can charge me with belittling Robert, all the while doing the same to me.
You also had the gall to belittle Stephen Robinson, even though he has written books and had articles in the Ensign, a magazine published by the church and only articles that have value and high standards are allowed to be in it. Apparently the brethren agree with Stephen on his analogy of our relationship with the Savior and how it works, whereas you don't...so this says volumes. I know how the relationship/partnership works and have witnessed the results.

Nuff said!

Definition of belittle - to speak slightingly of : disparage

Definition of gall - brazen boldness coupled with impudent assurance and insolence

finrock wrote:The article was pretty good, although I think the author has some ideas that are off.

Disagreeing with someone's ideas or saying that their ideas are wrong, is not disparaging or belittling the person.

FYI.

-Finrock

It was done in pure love and compassion...I get it, Finrock. The difference here is that I need not find excuses for bad behavior. I am a sinner trying to live each day the best I can with the God bestowed knowledge I possess in high hopes that Christ will one day seal me his.

2 Nephi 31:20
20 Wherefore, ye must press forward with a steadfastness in Christ, having a perfect brightness of hope, and a love of God and of all men. Wherefore, if ye shall press forward, feasting upon the word of Christ, and endure to the end, behold, thus saith the Father: Ye shall have eternal life.

Finrock wrote:Here are my premises.

"Follow the Prophet" is not scriptural. "Follow the Prophet" for many, many Mormons implies doing whatever the priesthood leaders tell you to do, without question; questioning/disagreeing with a priesthood leader is wrong and ought not to be done or is apostasy; whatever The Prophet says is true. Prophet veneration/adoration is a real phenomenon. "Follow the Prophet" implies that some mortal has superior ability to be connected with God over other mortals.

Out of time for now. I might revise this later or add to it. But, this is a starting point and things for others to consider in the meantime for those who are interested in an actual discussion and not mere assertions/assumptions/contentions or the like.

-Finrock

Streets for the most part run two directions, right? Two sides of the same road get along just great, but the drivers aiming their cars at each other above the pavement may not be so mutual a friendship.

Finrock wrote:"Follow the Prophet" is not scriptural.

Contemplator wrote:But, the literal words, "follow the prophet" are not in the scriptures.

Yes, the exact words "Follow the Prophet" do not appear in the scriptures. That doesn't mean it isn't one of the main themes over and over and over again.

The words "Jesus Christ" do not appear in the Old Testament. That doesn't mean He isn't one of the main themes over and over and over again.

And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

That sure sounds like follow to me.

rewcox wrote:

And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

That sure sounds like follow to me.

:ymparty: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymapplause: :ymparty:

rewcox wrote:

And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

That sure sounds like follow to me.

And why did they follow?
2 Nephi 5:6
6 ...And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

How and why did Nephi do what he did?
2 Nephi 5:5
5 And it came to pass that the Lord did warn me, that I, Nephi, should depart from them and flee into the wilderness, and all those who would go with me.

Why didn't the Lord just come down and talk to all of them instead of merely warning Nephi and having him encourage others to go with him?

Do people that push aside the prophets think the Lord is going to come down and speak to them directly?

Which example do we as members of the church find ourselves in?

1) Mosiah 3:19
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

2) Alma 35:15
15 Now Alma, being grieved for the iniquity of his people, yea for the wars, and the bloodsheds, and the contentions which were among them; and having been to declare the word, or sent to declare the word, among all the people in every city; and seeing that the hearts of the people began to wax hard, and that they began to be offended because of the strictness of the word, his heart was exceedingly sorrowful.

Now compare Nephi's day to ours. Nephi was rejected and people's hearts became hardened against the word. People of today reject Thomas Monson who only seeks to declare the word of God and lead us to Christ.

Finrock wrote:"Follow the Prophet" for many, many Mormons implies doing whatever the priesthood leaders tell you to do, without question; questioning/disagreeing with a priesthood leader is wrong and ought not to be done or is apostasy; whatever The Prophet says is true. Prophet veneration/adoration is a real phenomenon.

Two things:

1) Following the prophet or your priesthood leader blindly is sometimes absolutely valid, when we are blind to the facts. At that point, we can either follow blindly, or stumble blindly. How often does an investigator or new convert, with almost no context, just have to blindly follow what they are being told? Quite often. How many times does a Bishop have to ask a member to do something for another member without telling them facts behind the situation? Quite often. Can a prophet alter a policy in a way that doesn't make sense? Sure. He is the one with access to every ward in the world. Maybe the policy addresses a problem your particular ward hasn't even begun to encounter yet.

2) If people are beginning to worship the prophet, then address that, and don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Let's say you are invited to a dinner with the prophet, and he says, "Pass the salt." One person passes the salt and the other 9 out of 10 people feel like they have sinned because they weren't able to follow the prophet by passing him the salt. Those people have a problem. But is the right answer to tell everyone to stop following the prophet? Absolutely not.

Let's say you and your mother are saved from a burning building by a firefighter. You mother hugs and kisses him. Every time he comes over to the house, she stands in his honor. She cries when she sees him. When he talks at a dinner party, she always turns and listens to him. Let's say you finally get sick of it. You tell her, "Mother, it was actually the taxpayer's dollar that paid for that firefighter. You shouldn't treat him with that much respect, the government is the one that deserves your respect." Isn't that just plain crazy? Sure, there is a line somewhere when extreme gratitude crosses over into worship. Can we perfectly tell where that line lies? No. Is that line in a different location for different people? Probably. Should we be the judge as to whether someone has crossed that line? Probably not.

Finrock wrote:"Follow the Prophet" implies that some mortal has superior ability to be connected with God over other mortals.

Yes and no. I wouldn't say that the Prophet is automatically the most righteous or most moral person on Earth. What sets the prophet apart from everyone else on the Earth is not his superior ability, but God's choice. So yes, the prophet has some special connection to God above that of all other mortals, but that is because God chooses it to be that way. Does that mean God never talks to anyone else? Of course not. Does that mean there are some things God will only tell his prophet and no one else? Scripture says yes.

Even Joseph Smith was told to repent on various occasions by the Lord. Prophets are sinners too, it all depends on where their heart is, seeking righteousness or evil.

Nephi of old lamented over his own sins, yet he put full trust in the Lord to save him anyway. Why? Because Nephi knew he was a sinner and didn't try to make excuses for them or sweep them under a rock. His heart was in the right place...as should all of ours.

Mosiah 26:30
30 Yea, and as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me.

The Lord knows we are all sinners, so does the prophet. The prophet strives to get people to repent and stay on the straight and narrow. He tries to get people to retain soft hearts and to be humble, etc.

To reject prophets is to reject Christ as well. People are trying to save themselves, and this will not work. Just one sin will keep any of us out of God's presence, this is why we have the Savior, but we have to do things his way or grace will have no effect.

Everyone should heed the Lord, whether he speaks to you via prophets, the Spirit, or face to face.

It seems that many are having issues with the term "following the prophet" as they consider it to be hero-worship or being ruled by the arm of the flesh. To avoid this, they have adopted a philosophy that prophets are not needed and they you only need to the Spirit or Christ directly.

I agree that many worship the man instead of giving heed to the words Christ is giving us through him and that this is something that should be done away with, but that has nothing to do with whether prophets are used by the Lord and should be followed. Teaching that prophets are not needed and that following them is not doctrinal is simply wrong and sinful. When God speaks through his prophet, they must be followed.

The Lord uses prophets. He always has. Those with eyes to see and ears to hear...

Seeing that my previous post in this thread were ignored entirely and the points in them remain unaddressed, I have little hope for this post, but I will ask anyway...

For all those who support the term, "Follow the prophet" and believe that it a true doctrine of Christ, please help me to understand what you mean by "Follow the prophet".

What does that look like to you?

Let's put this down and see what you mean exactly. Which of the following statements match up to your definition/understanding of "Follow the Prophet":

1 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were God.
2 - Follow the prophet means to believe what the prophet teaches as if the prophet were God.
3 - Follow the Prophet means to worship the prophet as if the prophet were God.

4 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for obeying even when he is wrong.
5 - Follow the prophet means to believe the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for believing his teachings even when he is wrong.

6 - Follow the prophet means to give up your own thoughts, learning, study, revelation, inspiration and experience to accept whatever he says as true. It is to think what the prophet tells you to think and do what the prophet tells you to do.

7 - It means to do what the prophet does as in follow in his footsteps.

8 - It means to prayerfully consider what he teaches and requests knowing that at times you will accept and do and at other times you will not accept and not do.

9 - It means to place the prophet as the highest authority in your life, above the Holy Ghost and your personal revelation and the scriptures and every other authority from God.

10 - ???? Please Define...

Please select as many of these as you feel apply or correct them so that they do apply or write your own so that I can understand correctly what you are endorsing.

Thanks,
Amonhi

Amonhi wrote:Seeing that my previous post in this thread were ignored entirely and the points in them remain unaddressed, I have little hope for this post, but I will ask anyway...

For all those who support the term, "Follow the prophet" and believe that it a true doctrine of Christ, please help me to understand what you mean by "Follow the prophet".

What does that look like to you?

Let's put this down and see what you mean exactly. Which of the following statements match up to your definition/understanding of "Follow the Prophet":

1 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were God.
2 - Follow the prophet means to believe what the prophet teaches as if the prophet were God.
3 - Follow the Prophet means to worship the prophet as if the prophet were God.

4 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for obeying even when he is wrong.
5 - Follow the prophet means to believe the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for believing his teachings even when he is wrong.

6 - Follow the prophet means to give up your own thoughts, learning, study, revelation, inspiration and experience to accept whatever he says as true. It is to think what the prophet tells you to think and do what the prophet tells you to do.

7 - It means to do what the prophet does as in follow in his footsteps.

8 - It means to prayerfully consider what he teaches and requests knowing that at times you will accept and do and at other times you will not accept and not do.

9 - It means to place the prophet as the highest authority in your life, above the Holy Ghost and your personal revelation and the scriptures and every other authority from God.

10 - ???? Please Define...

Please select as many of these as you feel apply or correct them so that they do apply or write your own so that I can understand correctly what you are endorsing.

Thanks,
Amonhi

Here you go:
And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.[/quote]

That sure sounds like follow to me.

rewcox wrote:

Amonhi wrote:Seeing that my previous post in this thread were ignored entirely and the points in them remain unaddressed, I have little hope for this post, but I will ask anyway...

For all those who support the term, "Follow the prophet" and believe that it a true doctrine of Christ, please help me to understand what you mean by "Follow the prophet".

What does that look like to you?

Let's put this down and see what you mean exactly. Which of the following statements match up to your definition/understanding of "Follow the Prophet":

1 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were God.
2 - Follow the prophet means to believe what the prophet teaches as if the prophet were God.
3 - Follow the Prophet means to worship the prophet as if the prophet were God.

4 - Follow the prophet means to obey the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for obeying even when he is wrong.
5 - Follow the prophet means to believe the prophet as if the prophet were man knowing that he might make mistakes but you will be blessed for believing his teachings even when he is wrong.

6 - Follow the prophet means to give up your own thoughts, learning, study, revelation, inspiration and experience to accept whatever he says as true. It is to think what the prophet tells you to think and do what the prophet tells you to do.

7 - It means to do what the prophet does as in follow in his footsteps.

8 - It means to prayerfully consider what he teaches and requests knowing that at times you will accept and do and at other times you will not accept and not do.

9 - It means to place the prophet as the highest authority in your life, above the Holy Ghost and your personal revelation and the scriptures and every other authority from God.

10 - ???? Please Define...

Please select as many of these as you feel apply or correct them so that they do apply or write your own so that I can understand correctly what you are endorsing.

Thanks,
Amonhi

Here you go:

And all those who would go with me were those who believed in the warnings and the revelations of God; wherefore, they did hearken unto my words.

That sure sounds like follow to me.

Are you saying that if we believe the warnings and the revelations of God then we should listen to the words of the prophet and then we should "go with or follow the prophet" and move to Utah and be in his ward? (Seems that is what the people did in your quote above. But that doesn't really tell us what you mean by "Follow the Prophet" unless you are saying to physically go with him like the people did with Nephi...

Do you believe that everyone who went with Nephi obeyed Nephi as if he were there God? Did they believe whatever he told them to believe? Did they make him their king and ruler?

I don't feel like you answered the question. If you did, I didn't understand your answer. Do you believe we obey the prophet as if he were God? Is there room in your belief for the prophet to ever be wrong or in error? Even if he is, should we follow him as if he weren't?

What does "follow the prophet" really mean? Do you believe that those who went with Nephi gave up their ability to think for themselves or question their leaders? What are you recommending our relationship with the prophet should be? Equals, friends, servants, slaves, what?

If we learned something for ourselves and the prophet tells us something that contradicts what we learned for ourselves, are you recommending that we accept what the prophet says without question and immediately assume that the prophet is right and we are wrong?

If the prophet tells us to do something that we think is wrong or immoral or unwise, are you saying that we should do it anyway without first resolving our views or reconciling our beliefs?

Does Follow the prophet have any limits or consideration to what the prophet is asking us to believe or do? Are you encouraging people to follow the prophet without regard to what they might teach, or ask?

To what extent do you endorse giving others the power to think for you and make decisions for you and dictate your actions without regard to your personal circumstances, situations, experience, ability, revelation and communication with God?

Thanks,
Amonhi

[deleted]

Amonhi wrote:

rewcox wrote: What does "follow the prophet" really mean? Do you believe that those who went with Nephi gave up their ability to think for themselves or question their leaders? What are you recommending our relationship with the prophet should be? Equals, friends, servants, slaves, what?

If we learned something for ourselves and the prophet tells us something that contradicts what we learned for ourselves, are you recommending that we accept what the prophet says without question and immediately assume that the prophet is right and we are wrong?

If the prophet tells us to do something that we think is wrong or immoral or unwise, are you saying that we should do it anyway without first resolving our views or reconciling our beliefs?

We live by faith as all is not revealed so yes we follow the prophet even if we think he is wrong or don't fully understand what he is telling us to do.
It does not mean we loose our free agency or ability to reason, as we learn through doing and obedience as things come to us line upon line precept upon precept. We are all infants and babes in our progression and need to accept correction and guidance.

"If the prophet tells us to do something that we think is wrong or immoral or unwise, are you saying that we should do it anyway without first resolving our views or reconciling our beliefs?" What we need to do in such a circumstance is repent and follow the direction given as we are not in line with the will of G_d.

I know of no prophet either ancient or modern that has told some one to do something and it has not worked out for their benefit. In fact I would say the same to the local church leaders including Bishops and Stake presidents.

I have once been a Bishop and twice a branch president in three different stakes and different countries for that matter. I move around a lot for my work so I ended up in a very small branch with only 3 active Melchizedek PH holders. A very young and inexperience person was currently serving as the Branch President, He did a lot of things I thought was crazy - but I did everything he asked and supported every decision he made with no attempt to undermine him in any way and never had a problem. It takes more courage and faith to be a sheep than a goat.

People that second guess every time the prophet commands have little faith and testimony of the great latter day work, and poor understanding of the principles of the Gospel. If one lives close to the spirit you will know what is your duty.

Again the Prophet is the mouth piece of the Lord - if you can't follow him you can'f follow the Lord. Unity is a higher principle.

Doctrine and Covenants 38:27
27 Behold, this I have given unto you as a parable, and it is even as I am. I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one ye are not mine.

Mark 3:25
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Matthew 12:25
25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:

rewcox wrote: What does "follow the prophet" really mean? Do you believe that those who went with Nephi gave up their ability to think for themselves or question their leaders? What are you recommending our relationship with the prophet should be? Equals, friends, servants, slaves, what?

If we learned something for ourselves and the prophet tells us something that contradicts what we learned for ourselves, are you recommending that we accept what the prophet says without question and immediately assume that the prophet is right and we are wrong?

If the prophet tells us to do something that we think is wrong or immoral or unwise, are you saying that we should do it anyway without first resolving our views or reconciling our beliefs?

We live by faith as all is not revealed so yes we follow the prophet even if we think he is wrong or don't fully understand what he is telling us to do.

Do you believe that the prophet is no longer living by faith? At what point did the prophet stop living by faith such that he became greater than every other member of the church and the least likely of all the members to make mistakes or error in doctrine? Do you believe that he was called to be the prophet because he was the most righteous, most spiritually advanced member of the entire church? Did it happen when he was called and set apart to be the prophet or maybe shortly after?

Do you believe that God has done something to cause and prevent every member of the church from progressing beyond faith to knowledge? Has God stopped, slowed or halted the progression of every member of the church so that no one can be as spiritually advanced as the prophet or president of the church?

It sounds like you are saying that the Prophet if the church is greater than all of us and that he should have power and influence over us based soley on his priesthood and position in the priesthood. Is that what you are saying?

It does not mean we loose our free agency or ability to reason, as we learn through doing and obedience as things come to us line upon line precept upon precept.

Above you said, "yes we follow the prophet even if we think he is wrong or don't fully understand what he is telling us to do." Does this mean that you would give up without hesitation any learning and revelation they you had previously received by the spirit as soon as that revelation was contradicted by the prophet?

Do you believe the Prophet Brigham Young was acting as the prophet when he said,

"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312)

How do you reconcile this quote with your beliefs?

Thanks and peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote:

Amonhi wrote:

rewcox wrote: What does "follow the prophet" really mean? Do you believe that those who went with Nephi gave up their ability to think for themselves or question their leaders? What are you recommending our relationship with the prophet should be? Equals, friends, servants, slaves, what?

If we learned something for ourselves and the prophet tells us something that contradicts what we learned for ourselves, are you recommending that we accept what the prophet says without question and immediately assume that the prophet is right and we are wrong?

If the prophet tells us to do something that we think is wrong or immoral or unwise, are you saying that we should do it anyway without first resolving our views or reconciling our beliefs?

We live by faith as all is not revealed so yes we follow the prophet even if we think he is wrong or don't fully understand what he is telling us to do.

Do you believe that the prophet is no longer living by faith? At what point did the prophet stop living by faith such that he became greater than every other member of the church and the least likely of all the members to make mistakes or error in doctrine? Do you believe that he was called to be the prophet because he was the most righteous, most spiritually advanced member of the entire church? Did it happen when he was called and set apart to be the prophet or maybe shortly after?

Do you believe that God has done something to cause and prevent every member of the church from progressing beyond faith to knowledge? Has God stopped, slowed or halted the progression of every member of the church so that no one can be as spiritually advanced as the prophet or president of the church?

It sounds like you are saying that the Prophet if the church is greater than all of us and that he should have power and influence over us based soley on his priesthood and position in the priesthood. Is that what you are saying?

It does not mean we loose our free agency or ability to reason, as we learn through doing and obedience as things come to us line upon line precept upon precept.

Above you said, "yes we follow the prophet even if we think he is wrong or don't fully understand what he is telling us to do." Does this mean that you would give up without hesitation any learning and revelation they you had previously received by the spirit as soon as that revelation was contradicted by the prophet?

Do you believe the Prophet Brigham Young was acting as the prophet when he said,

"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312)

How do you reconcile this quote with your beliefs?

Thanks and peace,
Amonhi

Easy! Salvation is in Christ. Prophets confirm this and testify of Christ. Prophets also give direction and warnings that Christ wants them to. Exactly how we see it in 1st and 2nd Nephi.

Spaced_Out wrote:I know of no prophet either ancient or modern that has told some one to do something and it has not worked out for their benefit. In fact I would say the same to the local church leaders including Bishops and Stake presidents.

Hmmm, not to be disrespectful or in any way, it seem appropriate to me to point out a few documented instances in which the church or church leaders or even scriptures themselves have told us that following leaders has at times "worked out against the peoples benefit. Here are a few examples recognized by the church or leaders in the church so that you can't claim ignorance on this point anymore...

1 - Bishops & Stake Presidents and even members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir are discovered by the church to be using their positions and authority to commit ritual and sexual abuse.

I tried to attach the entire internal church report by Bishop Glen L. Pace (Not a local Bishop, but the Presiding Bishop over the entire church out of the church headquarters building), but it wouldn't let me, so you can read about it HERE. Here are a few quotes from that report:

Ritualistic child abuse is the most hideous of all child abuse. The basic
objective is premeditated--to systematically and methodically torture and
terrorize children until they are forced to dissociate. The torture is not a
consequence of the loss of temper, but the execution of well-planned, well thought
out rituals often performed by close relatives.
...
Among others, there are Young Women leaders, Young Men leaders, bishops, a patriarch, a stake
president, temple workers, and members of the Tabernacle Choir. These
accusations are not coming from individuals who think they recognized
someone, but from those who have been abused by people they know, in many
cases their own family members.
...
I'm sorry to say that many of the victims have had their first flashbacks while
attending the temple for the first time. The occult along the Wasatch Front
uses the doctrine of the Church to their advantage.

When I first read this many years ago, I couldn't believe it, so I called Church Headquarters and spoke to Elder Pace's secretary who confirmed the report was accurate and true and was surprised I had obtained a copy of it.

In addition, every year there are unfortunately many instances in which Bishops or stake presidents use their position to seduce women, girls and even boys. I knew a lawyer out of Reno NV. who had personally taken the church to court for various issues some not as serious as these.

Local leaders don't always do things so terrible, and thankfully they are far and few in the big picture. It is common that they teach false doctrine and even do not know the church stance on particular issues. I have even taken a bishop to task after a particular sermon he gave in sacrament meeting. He was shocked when I finally got him to read the Bishop's handbook of instruction which flatly contradicted what he had just taught the entire ward. He opted to not retract or correct his statements.

But rather than focusing time or attention on local leaders I will show a few examples of the Big man himself as he is the focal point of this discussion.


2 - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie taught that if a person believed the damning heresies that were taught by President Brigham Young acting as the prophet of the church, that person would be damned. I think that being damned would be considered not working out for their benefit.

I think you can give me credit for having a knowledge of the quotations from Brigham Young relative to Adam, and of knowing what he taught under the subject that has become known as the Adam God Theory. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that Brigham Young will have to make his own explanations on the points there involved. I think you can also give me credit for knowing what Brigham Young said about God progressing. And again, that is something he will have to account for. As for me and my house, we will have the good sense to choose between the divergent teachings of the same man and come up with those that accord with what God has set forth in his eternal plan of salvation.

This puts me in mind of Paul's statement: "There must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:19.) I do not know all of the providences of the Lord, but I do know that he permits false doctrine to be taught in and out of the Church and that such teaching is part of the sifting process of mortality. We will be judged by what we believe among other things. If we believe false doctrine, we will be condemned. If that belief is on basic and fundamental things, it will lead us astray and we will lose our souls. This is why Nephi said: "And all those who preach false doctrines, . . . wo, wo, wo be unto them, saith the Lord God Almighty, for they shall be thrust down to hell!: (2 Ne. 28:15.) This clearly means that people who teach false doctrine in the fundamental and basic things will lose their souls. The nature and kind of being that God is, is one of these fundamentals. I repeat: Brigham Young erred in some of his statements on the nature and kind of being that God is and as to the position of Adam in the plan of salvation, but Brigham Young also taught the truth in these fields on other occasions. And I repeat, that in his instance, he was a great prophet and has gone on to eternal reward. What he did is not a pattern for any of us. If we choose to believe and teach the false portions of his doctrines, we are making an election that will damn us. - Mr. Eugene England, February 19, 1981

If Elder McConkie is right, then not only can Prophets lead us astray, but they do and have. If Elder McConkie is right, and Presidents or Prophets of the church can, do and have taught heresies as doctrine, then the belief that a prophet can't lead us astray is proven to be wrong and by its very error and the fact that it has been taught by prophets like President Woodruff, it is an example of a prophet leading us astray by falsely teaching that they won't so that we will put undo faith in men and the arm of flesh.


3 - The Man of God listened to the Old Prophet of God and died for doing so. (1 Kings 13)


4 - Joseph Smith taught that the church members losing their ability to think for themselves because they were depending on the prophet too much.

"6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself:" - (Ezekiel 14:6-7)

"President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel --- said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church --- that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls ---applied it to the present state of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ---said if the people departed from the Lord, they must fall --- that they were depending on the Prophet, hence were darkened in their minds." (Description of Joseph Smiths teachings to the Relief Society, found in the Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 237-238)

5 - Here is an example when people blindly followed the prophet without having their own knowledge and acted "

Location of Zion

After having ascertained the very spot, and having the happiness of seeing quite a number of the families of my brethren comfortably situated upon the land, I took leave of them and journeyed back to Ohio, and used every influence and argument that lay in my power to get those who believed in the everlasting covenant, whose circumstances would admit, and whose families were willing to remove to the place which I had designated to be the land of Zion; and thus the sound of the gathering, and of the doctrine, went abroad into the world; and many, having a zeal not according to knowledge, and not understanding the pure principles of the doctrine of the Church, have, no doubt, in the heat of enthusiasm, taught and said many things which are derogatory to the genuine character and principles of the Church; and for these things we are heartily sorry, and would apologize, if apology would do any good.

Principles of the Gospel

But we pause here, and offer a remark upon the saying which we learn has gone abroad, and has been handled in a manner detrimental to the cause of truth, by saying, "that in preaching the doctrine of gathering, we break up families, and give license for men to leave their families, women their husbands, children their parents and slaves their masters, thereby deranging the order and breaking up the harmony and peace of society." We shall here show our faith, and thereby, misrepresentations, which have caused, we have every reason to believe, thousands to think they were doing God's service, when they were persecuting the children of God; whereas, if they could have enjoyed the true light, and had a just understanding of our principles, they would have embraced them with all their hearts, and been rejoicing in the love of the truth. And now to show our doctrine on this subject, we shall commence with the first principles of the Gospel, which are faith, repentance, and baptism for the remission of sins, and the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the hands. This we believe to be our duty--to teach to all mankind the doctrine of repentance, which we shall endeavor to show from the following quotations: ... - Teaching of the Prophet Joseph Smith,Section Two 1834-37, p.80

These few examples of the leaders and even the Prophets of the church instructed people contrary to their own benefit, or following blindly without knowledge has been "detrimental to the cause of truth".

Peace,
Amonhi


(EDIT: the forum software won't let me attach a PDF. )

rewcox wrote:

Amonhi wrote: Do you believe the Prophet Brigham Young was acting as the prophet when he said,

"There are those among this people who are influenced, controlled, and biased in their thoughts, actions, and feelings by some other individual or family, on whom they place their dependence for spiritual and temporal instruction, and for salvation in the end. These persons do not depend upon themselves for salvation, but upon another of their poor, weak, fellow mortals. I do not depend upon any inherent goodness of my own, say they, to introduce me into the kingdom of glory, but I depend upon you, brother Joseph, upon you, brother Brigham, upon you, brother Heber, or upon you, brother James; I believe your judgment is superior to mine, and consequently I let you judge for me; your spirit is better than mine, therefore you can do good for me; I will submit myself wholly to you, and place in you all my confidence for life and salvation; where you go I will go, and where you tarry there I will stay; expecting that you will introduce me through the gates into the heavenly Jerusalem....Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influences of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their faith upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves, to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them, They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course." (Brigham Young, presented in the Salt Lake Tabernacle on February 20, 1853, found in Journal of Discourses, 1:312)

How do you reconcile this quote with your beliefs?

Thanks and peace,
Amonhi

Easy! Salvation is in Christ. Prophets confirm this and testify of Christ. Prophets also give direction and warnings that Christ wants them to. Exactly how we see it in 1st and 2nd Nephi.

I still don't even know what you believe because you have as of yet to respond to my previous post requesting that you clarify what "Follow the Prophet" really means in an everyday practice and application.

Could you please go back and explain what you mean and are endorsing by telling people to "follow the prophet"? Here is the Post you didn't respond to: HERE

Peace,
Amonhi

Amonhi wrote:I still don't even know what you believe because you have as of yet to respond to my previous post requesting that you clarify what "Follow the Prophet" really means in an everyday practice and application.

Could you please go back and explain what you mean and are endorsing by telling people to "follow the prophet"? Here is the Post you didn't respond to: HERE

Peace,
Amonhi

Maybe this will help: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/ ... e?lang=eng

For his word ye shall receive, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith” (D&C 21:4–5).

Then the Lord gave a magnificent promise to those who are obedient: “For by doing these things the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your good, and his name’s glory” (D&C 21:6).

A year and a half later, the Lord added to that significant promise this stern warning: “The arm of the Lord shall be revealed; and the day cometh that they who will not hear the voice of the Lord, neither the voice of his servants, neither give heed to the words of the prophets and apostles, shall be cut off from among the people” (D&C 1:14).

Amonhi wrote:

Spaced_Out wrote: Above you said, "yes we follow the prophet even if we think he is wrong or don't fully understand what he is telling us to do." Does this mean that you would give up without hesitation any learning and revelation they you had previously received by the spirit as soon as that revelation was contradicted by the prophet?

A house divide cannot stand - one would never receive revelation or knowledge contrary to that what the prophet is teaching.
If you receive something different to what the prophet is telling you to do - you are not listening to the right spirit.

The most intelligent of them all calls the prophet and commanded them and tells them what to say to us - not a good idea to lean unto your own wisdom and understanding.

Abr 3:19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.