LDS Freedom Forum

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:Next general conference priesthood session, watch when the camera pans around to show 21,000 men all in white shirts.
Frankly, it looks cultish and makes me cringe.

Ordinary business attire. Not cultish at all. Other than the cult of ordinary business attire.
What are you, one of those weirdos what's got to show up in a purple shirt or something? Or worse, paisley?
dc

freedomforall wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:Next general conference priesthood session, watch when the camera pans around to show 21,000 men all in white shirts.
Frankly, it looks cultish and makes me cringe.

Then I suppose the celestial kingdom is out of the question. God the Father, Jesus Christ and all celestial people wearing white robes. How cultish.

D&C 109:76
76 That our garments may be pure, that we may be clothed upon with robes of righteousness, with palms in our hands, and crowns of glory upon our heads, and reap eternal joy for all our sufferings.

2 Ne. 9:14
14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.

Mormon 9:6
6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day.

Yup, how cultish can the Lord get?

freedomforall wrote:

djinwa wrote:Cults use force to keep members. One form is fear, or psychological coercion. Teach that punishment will ensue should one not follow the group, such as going to hell, or being separated from family for eternity.

Then there is the immediate fear of being rejected by family and friends if you choose another path.

While we preach free agency, are we really free? If you ask an 8 year old if they want to go to church, or play in the park, are they really free to choose? What happens if they choose the park? There are countless ways to inflict guilt, or fear of rejection by family and members.

If a young man doesn't really want to go on a mission, what is the reaction from family and members? Are they fine with that? Will fewer young ladies be interested in him without RM status?

Cousin of mine quit going to church and his wife left him and took their 5 kids and married a more worthy priesthood holder. He told me years later he would have stayed in the church if he knew that would happen. See how that works? Free agency, right?

Others I know who left say church friends immediately stopped talking to them. Pretty standard cult behavior.

Supposedly the church is about family, but most will take the church over family. As I've seen, too broke to visit kids, but somehow come up with the money to go on missions. Or unable to pay for needs of kids while giving big chunks to church.

Many I know, including my parents, would certainly choose the church over their children. Large reason for having kids was probably to boost status. My dad used to introduce me as "my number 4 son".

What are you trying to say? Do you not know that...

Hebrews 5:8
8 Though he (Christ) were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Doctrine and Covenants 105:6
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

So is parents teaching children the right path wrong?

Robin Hood wrote:The question is why do people do it?
Wearing a white shirt is not in the scriptures, it's not in the baptismal covenant or the temple covenants, it's not part of the oath and covenant of the priesthood; and yet like sheep everyone falls into line. And those who dare to wear a coloured shirt feel they a being a bit naughty.
That is cultish in my view.

Cookies wrote:

freedomforall wrote:

djinwa wrote:Cults use force to keep members. One form is fear, or psychological coercion. Teach that punishment will ensue should one not follow the group, such as going to hell, or being separated from family for eternity.

Then there is the immediate fear of being rejected by family and friends if you choose another path.

While we preach free agency, are we really free? If you ask an 8 year old if they want to go to church, or play in the park, are they really free to choose? What happens if they choose the park? There are countless ways to inflict guilt, or fear of rejection by family and members.

If a young man doesn't really want to go on a mission, what is the reaction from family and members? Are they fine with that? Will fewer young ladies be interested in him without RM status?

Cousin of mine quit going to church and his wife left him and took their 5 kids and married a more worthy priesthood holder. He told me years later he would have stayed in the church if he knew that would happen. See how that works? Free agency, right?

Others I know who left say church friends immediately stopped talking to them. Pretty standard cult behavior.

Supposedly the church is about family, but most will take the church over family. As I've seen, too broke to visit kids, but somehow come up with the money to go on missions. Or unable to pay for needs of kids while giving big chunks to church.

Many I know, including my parents, would certainly choose the church over their children. Large reason for having kids was probably to boost status. My dad used to introduce me as "my number 4 son".

What are you trying to say? Do you not know that...

Hebrews 5:8
8 Though he (Christ) were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

Doctrine and Covenants 105:6
6 And my people must needs be chastened until they learn obedience, if it must needs be, by the things which they suffer.

So is parents teaching children the right path wrong?

According to Larry's talk you should stop chastening your children after they "can and should be using their own agency". So what? Age 8?

I only chasten my kids when they use "their" agency for things other than what God wants. That's how I know that they have not yet learned obedience. ;)

Take Heed That Ye Be Not Deceived by Richard L Winwood

Is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints a Cult?

To answer this, we must first define cult. According to the World Book Encyclopedia, a cult is a “religious group devoted to a living leader, a new teaching, or an unusual practice.”59 In that sense Jesus Christ was the leader of a cult (the Christians), as far as the Jews were concerned. By the same token Martin Luther was the leader of a cult and the Methodist, Presbyterian, and Baptist movements were cultic when they began. All these groups have developed into organized churches.

Those who use the word cult to describe the organization or the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do so for the sensational effect it may have on those who read their material. It is an effort to degrade Mormon doctrine or to imply that, as members of a cult, Mormons are not to be taken seriously but are to be avoided or openly disdained.

-Interesting.
Here Richard attributes nefarious motives to all people that label the LDS church a cult. In effect, he is doing to them exactly what he accuses them of doing to Mormons. (Suggesting that they should not be taken seriously, and perhaps avoided.)

In my experience, the only people I have run across that label the LDS church as such, are people with seemingly genuine concern for the members. Who am I to tell them what their motives are? I'll leave that to Mr. Winwood.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a vital, living church where the gospel of Jesus Christ is taught in its fulness. There are no secret oaths required for membership, and members perform no unseemly practices or rituals. They are free to remove themselves from church activity at any time. Service and activity in the church are free from compulsion and coercion in any form.

-Debatable.

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:Next general conference priesthood session, watch when the camera pans around to show 21,000 men all in white shirts.
Frankly, it looks cultish and makes me cringe.

Ordinary business attire. Not cultish at all. Other than the cult of ordinary business attire.
What are you, one of those weirdos what's got to show up in a purple shirt or something? Or worse, paisley?
dc

freedomforall wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:Next general conference priesthood session, watch when the camera pans around to show 21,000 men all in white shirts.
Frankly, it looks cultish and makes me cringe.

Then I suppose the celestial kingdom is out of the question. God the Father, Jesus Christ and all celestial people wearing white robes. How cultish.

D&C 109:76
76 That our garments may be pure, that we may be clothed upon with robes of righteousness, with palms in our hands, and crowns of glory upon our heads, and reap eternal joy for all our sufferings.

2 Ne. 9:14
14 Wherefore, we shall have a perfect knowledge of all our guilt, and our uncleanness, and our nakedness; and the righteous shall have a perfect knowledge of their enjoyment, and their righteousness, being clothed with purity, yea, even with the robe of righteousness.

Mormon 9:6
6 O then ye unbelieving, turn ye unto the Lord; cry mightily unto the Father in the name of Jesus, that perhaps ye may be found spotless, pure, fair, and white, having been cleansed by the blood of the Lamb, at that great and last day.

Yup, how cultish can the Lord get?

David13 wrote:

bbsion wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:Next general conference priesthood session, watch when the camera pans around to show 21,000 men all in white shirts.
Frankly, it looks cultish and makes me cringe.

This is why I only own two white shirts and the rest are all different colors and patterns. I do not see the "white shirt and tie" as commandment or whatever. Yet the vast majority of men in the church for some reason do not own anything but white shirts. In my opinion, Heaven is full of colors. Colors we've never even dreamed of. Also, the women all wear dresses of different color. Why do most of the men only where white then?

What color do we wear in the Temple and why?
dc

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:Next general conference priesthood session, watch when the camera pans around to show 21,000 men all in white shirts.
Frankly, it looks cultish and makes me cringe.

Ordinary business attire. Not cultish at all. Other than the cult of ordinary business attire.
What are you, one of those weirdos what's got to show up in a purple shirt or something? Or worse, paisley?
dc

It isn't ordinary business attire to insist on a white shirt. I don't know any business that does that.
And even if it was, why?
Why go to church as if it's another day at the office? What has business attire got to do with going to church and renewing covenants?
It's all complete nonsense.

I have lost count of the number of investigators who have failed to continue church attendance because they don't posess a white shirt, tie, business suit, dress shoes etc and, despite assurances that it doesn't matter (which is a lie, because it clearly does) felt uncomfortable and out of place.

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:Next general conference priesthood session, watch when the camera pans around to show 21,000 men all in white shirts.
Frankly, it looks cultish and makes me cringe.

Ordinary business attire. Not cultish at all. Other than the cult of ordinary business attire.
What are you, one of those weirdos what's got to show up in a purple shirt or something? Or worse, paisley?
dc

It isn't ordinary business attire to insist on a white shirt. I don't know any business that does that.
And even if it was, why?
Why go to church as if it's another day at the office? What has business attire got to do with going to church and renewing covenants?
It's all complete nonsense.

I have lost count of the number of investigators who have failed to continue church attendance because they don't posess a white shirt, tie, business suit, dress shoes etc and, despite assurances that it doesn't matter (which is a lie, because it clearly does) felt uncomfortable and out of place.

When you go to worship God you put on your best clothes. Not some "hippie" costume, nor some dress for some rock n roll concert.
Nor the 'drinking, go to the bar' clothes, or 'going to the race track' clothes that some investigators have invested in.
dc

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

Ordinary business attire. Not cultish at all. Other than the cult of ordinary business attire.
What are you, one of those weirdos what's got to show up in a purple shirt or something? Or worse, paisley?
dc

It isn't ordinary business attire to insist on a white shirt. I don't know any business that does that.
And even if it was, why?
Why go to church as if it's another day at the office? What has business attire got to do with going to church and renewing covenants?
It's all complete nonsense.

I have lost count of the number of investigators who have failed to continue church attendance because they don't posess a white shirt, tie, business suit, dress shoes etc and, despite assurances that it doesn't matter (which is a lie, because it clearly does) felt uncomfortable and out of place.

When you go to worship God you put on your best clothes. Not some "hippie" costume, nor some dress for some rock n roll concert.
Nor the 'drinking, go to the bar' clothes, or 'going to the race track' clothes that some investigators have invested in.
dc

So what qualifies a white shirt as "best clothes"?
Oh and by the way, the investigators I refer to are not dressed like they're going out on the town. They're dressed in the only clothes they have.
In other words, they're poor.

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:
It isn't ordinary business attire to insist on a white shirt. I don't know any business that does that.
And even if it was, why?
Why go to church as if it's another day at the office? What has business attire got to do with going to church and renewing covenants?
It's all complete nonsense.

I have lost count of the number of investigators who have failed to continue church attendance because they don't posess a white shirt, tie, business suit, dress shoes etc and, despite assurances that it doesn't matter (which is a lie, because it clearly does) felt uncomfortable and out of place.

When you go to worship God you put on your best clothes. Not some "hippie" costume, nor some dress for some rock n roll concert.
Nor the 'drinking, go to the bar' clothes, or 'going to the race track' clothes that some investigators have invested in.
dc

So what qualifies a white shirt as "best clothes"?
Oh and by the way, the investigators I refer to are not dressed like they're going out on the town. They're dressed in the only clothes they have.
In other words, they're poor.

Oh, well, I guess I'm supposed to be impressed by that remark.
Let me tell you what poor means in this country: They have money to gamble, for cigarettes, for booze, for drugs, for going to some "sport (spectator) event, to the latest movie, and a boat load of other garbage including some fancy text, telephone internet device. Then, they plead poverty.
I'm not impressed.
You do know they will be asked to pay tithe, don't you?
Where do garments come from?
One of the things that is supposed to happen when you join the church is that you are SUPPOSED to have a change come about.
All that is just part of the change.
dc

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

When you go to worship God you put on your best clothes. Not some "hippie" costume, nor some dress for some rock n roll concert.
Nor the 'drinking, go to the bar' clothes, or 'going to the race track' clothes that some investigators have invested in.
dc

So what qualifies a white shirt as "best clothes"?
Oh and by the way, the investigators I refer to are not dressed like they're going out on the town. They're dressed in the only clothes they have.
In other words, they're poor.

Oh, well, I guess I'm supposed to be impressed by that remark.
Let me tell you what poor means in this country: They have money to gamble, for cigarettes, for booze, for drugs, for going to some "sport (spectator) event, to the latest movie, and a boat load of other garbage including some fancy text, telephone internet device. Then, they plead poverty.
I'm not impressed.
You do know they will be asked to pay tithe, don't you?
Where do garments come from?
One of the things that is supposed to happen when you join the church is that you are SUPPOSED to have a change come about.
All that is just part of the change.
dc

Sorry David, my fault.
Mistook you for a Christian.

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:
It isn't ordinary business attire to insist on a white shirt. I don't know any business that does that.
And even if it was, why?
Why go to church as if it's another day at the office? What has business attire got to do with going to church and renewing covenants?
It's all complete nonsense.

I have lost count of the number of investigators who have failed to continue church attendance because they don't posess a white shirt, tie, business suit, dress shoes etc and, despite assurances that it doesn't matter (which is a lie, because it clearly does) felt uncomfortable and out of place.

When you go to worship God you put on your best clothes. Not some "hippie" costume, nor some dress for some rock n roll concert.
Nor the 'drinking, go to the bar' clothes, or 'going to the race track' clothes that some investigators have invested in.
dc

So what qualifies a white shirt as "best clothes"?
Oh and by the way, the investigators I refer to are not dressed like they're going out on the town. They're dressed in the only clothes they have.
In other words, they're poor.

Oh, well, I guess I'm supposed to be impressed by that remark.
Let me tell you what poor means in this country: They have money to gamble, for cigarettes, for booze, for drugs, for going to some "sport (spectator) event, to the latest movie, and a boat load of other garbage including some fancy text, telephone internet device. Then, they plead poverty.
I'm not impressed.
You do know they will be asked to pay tithe, don't you?
Where do garments come from?
One of the things that is supposed to happen when you join the church is that you are SUPPOSED to have a change come about.
All that is just part of the change.
dc

bbsion wrote:

David13 wrote:

Robin Hood wrote:

David13 wrote:

When you go to worship God you put on your best clothes. Not some "hippie" costume, nor some dress for some rock n roll concert.
Nor the 'drinking, go to the bar' clothes, or 'going to the race track' clothes that some investigators have invested in.
dc

So what qualifies a white shirt as "best clothes"?
Oh and by the way, the investigators I refer to are not dressed like they're going out on the town. They're dressed in the only clothes they have.
In other words, they're poor.

Oh, well, I guess I'm supposed to be impressed by that remark.
Let me tell you what poor means in this country: They have money to gamble, for cigarettes, for booze, for drugs, for going to some "sport (spectator) event, to the latest movie, and a boat load of other garbage including some fancy text, telephone internet device. Then, they plead poverty.
I'm not impressed.
You do know they will be asked to pay tithe, don't you?
Where do garments come from?
One of the things that is supposed to happen when you join the church is that you are SUPPOSED to have a change come about.
All that is just part of the change.
dc

Good grief man. You can't be serious. That comes across as extremely judgmental and assumptive. I'm so glad Jesus did not have the same attitude about the poor that you do.

kennyhs wrote:And yes, a person with the change of heart necessary does not kick against the pricks.

ajax wrote:Hanging a picture of your leader in your house has got to be a red flag.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

jbalm wrote:

kennyhs wrote:And yes, a person with the change of heart necessary does not kick against the pricks.

So, they need to obey the pricks? Be subservient to the pricks? Eventually become pricks themselves?

Why do the pricks always get a pass in these discussions?

Alma 31:27 Behold, O God, they cry unto thee, and yet their hearts are swallowed up in their pride. Behold, O God, they cry unto thee with their mouths, while they are puffed up, even to greatness, with the vain things of the world.

28 Behold, O my God, their costly apparel, and their ringlets, and their bracelets, and their ornaments of gold, and all their precious things which they are ornamented with; and behold, their hearts are set upon them, and yet they cry unto thee and say—We thank thee, O God, for we are a chosen people unto thee, while others shall perish.

Alma 31: 19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

kennyhs wrote:

jbalm wrote:

kennyhs wrote:And yes, a person with the change of heart necessary does not kick against the pricks.

So, they need to obey the pricks? Be subservient to the pricks? Eventually become pricks themselves?

Why do the pricks always get a pass in these discussions?

I'm not sure you understand the anology.

sandman45 wrote:I believe this applies to the topic of cultish and the white shirts and ties etc..

Alma 31:27 Behold, O God, they cry unto thee, and yet their hearts are swallowed up in their pride. Behold, O God, they cry unto thee with their mouths, while they are puffed up, even to greatness, with the vain things of the world.

28 Behold, O my God, their costly apparel, and their ringlets, and their bracelets, and their ornaments of gold, and all their precious things which they are ornamented with; and behold, their hearts are set upon them, and yet they cry unto thee and say—We thank thee, O God, for we are a chosen people unto thee, while others shall perish.

this in my opinion is what is happening today. We as a LDS/Mormon culture are the modern day Zoramites... notice what the reaction of Alma and his brethren and his sons were..

Alma 31: 19 Now it came to pass that after Alma and his brethren and his sons had heard these prayers, they were astonished beyond all measure.

now we do not deny Christ like they did but we do all these other things that they were doing..

kennyhs wrote:

jbalm wrote:

kennyhs wrote:And yes, a person with the change of heart necessary does not kick against the pricks.

So, they need to obey the pricks? Be subservient to the pricks? Eventually become pricks themselves?

Why do the pricks always get a pass in these discussions?

I'm not sure you understand the anology.

sandman45 wrote:

ajax wrote:Hanging a picture of your leader in your house has got to be a red flag.

I couldn't find a picture of my leader... but i did find one of his son.. so I hung that up..

I guess I could go by this?

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

christ.jpg