LDS Freedom Forum

Arandur wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 9:08 am Some thoughts and questions:

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 6:26 am The Spirit works in a myriad of ways and manifests itself different with people according to their understanding and knowledge. Agreed. We should all realize as baptized and confirmed members that everyone of us has the companionship of the spirit to lead and guide us in "every" decision as long as we are living righteously. I agree, but it depends on what you mean by “living righteously”. The particular conditions are laid out in the sacrament prayers, among other places. Still, there are questions we can ask. What does it mean to be willing to take upon us Christ’s name? What does it mean to always remember Him? What commandments are we to keep? If none of us are perfect, how do we know we’re actually doing this in a way that we can receive the promised blessing? Also, how is the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost distinct from the Light of Christ, which is given to all? Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there. It’s true, sometimes we do. There are other purposes for these manifestations too though, right? They provide greater clarity, certainty, and peace, help us better understand and align with God’s will, increase faith, grant us great knowledge, purify our hearts, and so much more. The quieter, continual presence of the Holy Ghost does most or all of these things too, of course, though in different degrees for different things. I would only add that it’s important for our eternal progression that we (1) ensure that we are actually living according to our covenants and become certain, by a witness from God, that we are actually receiving the Holy Ghost with all of these blessings, and not holding something back from God and ignoring it, and (2) not be content with the bare minimum or with the light we already have, and be willing to ask the right questions, make the right changes, and pay a greater price to receive more. This doesn’t discount the quieter blessings any more than the Book of Mormon discounts the Bible; it’s simply an expression of the desire to be even closer to the Lord and thereby become a more effective instrument in His hands to serve others. What we should be striving to acknowledge though is that the HG teaches and leads us in "all things" and brings "all things" to our remembrance. This is correct. Do you think it means that we should assume the Holy Ghost is guiding our every decision, or that the Holy Ghost’s role is to do so, and therefore we should earnestly invite and seek His presence in all things? Or both, or something else?

Stahura wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 10:40 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 6:26 am The Spirit works in a myriad of ways and manifests itself different with people according to their understanding and knowledge. We should all realize as baptized and confirmed members that everyone of us has the companionship of the spirit to lead and guide us in "every" decision as long as we are living righteously. Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there. What we should be striving to acknowledge though is that the HG teaches and leads us in "all things" and brings "all things" to our remembrance.

"Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there".

"I don't need great manifestations"

"That's sign seeking"

. It's such a shame that the Gospel has been watered down, that the Power of the Holy Ghost has been replaced with small warm happy fuzzies, feelings that are felt in literally every other Christian congregation.

The prophets of old fasted for days and days and sacrificed ALL THINGS to obtain the knowledge of the things that we think we also know.

Do you really suppose Alma and Nephi and Moroni suffered all kinds of afflictions and fasted for days and denied themselves of all the things the world offers just to go and feel warm fuzzies?
Do you really suppose that you come to know the same things as the prophets old of without doing the same things that Alma and Nephi and Moroni had to do? Such foolishness.

The prophets of old fasted and prayed and suffered afflictions of all kinds, always staying faithful UNTIL they obtained powerful manifestations of the Holy Ghost, or the visitation of Angels, or visitations of God himself and somehow we, in 2019, assume that we obtain the same knowledge through a completely different experience doing a 100th of what they had to do to obtain their knowledge.

Alma said :

46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

He is not referring to warm fuzzies, or "peace" or what you suppose is "joy". That does not give you a knowledge of things. They fast and prayed many days in order to receive a great and miraculous manifestation of the Holy Ghost, to have the Holy Ghost come upon with them power.

If you think that someone suggests you need this is sign seeking or faithless, then you do not understand what you condemn. With these experiences come pure intelligence and knowledge by the Holy Ghost, and until such a person shed's their unbelief and experiences it for themselves, they'll continue receiving the fruits of unbelief.

If you are seeking knowledge in any point of the Gospel, any point or feeling or emotion or "nudge" is just that. It's a nudge, an approval that you are on the correct course. Do not suppose that is the answer. Move on, continue, march forward until you obtain a true knowledge in that point. It's not about the experience, it's not about having "cool stories" , it's not about feeling "better" than others. It's that the Lord provides instant knowledge and understanding through those experiences. Just like the Mighty Change happens in an instant, just like immediately after the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost you simply have an instant knowledge that Jesus is your Savior, a knowledge you realize you did not have 10 seconds prior, you too will have instant understanding of other things when you do what Alma did.

When you plant a seed, is all done when you see the plant sprout? Of course not, yet this is what many do when they suppose they have received revelation. "OH! Warm fuzzie! All done!. No, you feed it, you water it and take care of it. When the tree is fully grown, is it done? NO! It must still bring forth fruit!

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 1:04 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 10:40 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 6:26 am The Spirit works in a myriad of ways and manifests itself different with people according to their understanding and knowledge. We should all realize as baptized and confirmed members that everyone of us has the companionship of the spirit to lead and guide us in "every" decision as long as we are living righteously. Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there. What we should be striving to acknowledge though is that the HG teaches and leads us in "all things" and brings "all things" to our remembrance.

"Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there".

"I don't need great manifestations"

"That's sign seeking"

. It's such a shame that the Gospel has been watered down, that the Power of the Holy Ghost has been replaced with small warm happy fuzzies, feelings that are felt in literally every other Christian congregation.

The prophets of old fasted for days and days and sacrificed ALL THINGS to obtain the knowledge of the things that we think we also know.

Do you really suppose Alma and Nephi and Moroni suffered all kinds of afflictions and fasted for days and denied themselves of all the things the world offers just to go and feel warm fuzzies?
Do you really suppose that you come to know the same things as the prophets old of without doing the same things that Alma and Nephi and Moroni had to do? Such foolishness.

The prophets of old fasted and prayed and suffered afflictions of all kinds, always staying faithful UNTIL they obtained powerful manifestations of the Holy Ghost, or the visitation of Angels, or visitations of God himself and somehow we, in 2019, assume that we obtain the same knowledge through a completely different experience doing a 100th of what they had to do to obtain their knowledge.

Alma said :

46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

He is not referring to warm fuzzies, or "peace" or what you suppose is "joy". That does not give you a knowledge of things. They fast and prayed many days in order to receive a great and miraculous manifestation of the Holy Ghost, to have the Holy Ghost come upon with them power.

If you think that someone suggests you need this is sign seeking or faithless, then you do not understand what you condemn. With these experiences come pure intelligence and knowledge by the Holy Ghost, and until such a person shed's their unbelief and experiences it for themselves, they'll continue receiving the fruits of unbelief.

If you are seeking knowledge in any point of the Gospel, any point or feeling or emotion or "nudge" is just that. It's a nudge, an approval that you are on the correct course. Do not suppose that is the answer. Move on, continue, march forward until you obtain a true knowledge in that point. It's not about the experience, it's not about having "cool stories" , it's not about feeling "better" than others. It's that the Lord provides instant knowledge and understanding through those experiences. Just like the Mighty Change happens in an instant, just like immediately after the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost you simply have an instant knowledge that Jesus is your Savior, a knowledge you realize you did not have 10 seconds prior, you too will have instant understanding of other things when you do what Alma did.

When you plant a seed, is all done when you see the plant sprout? Of course not, yet this is what many do when they suppose they have received revelation. "OH! Warm fuzzie! All done!. No, you feed it, you water it and take care of it. When the tree is fully grown, is it done? NO! It must still bring forth fruit!

I think we are largely speaking about different things. I was clarifying a bit on how the spirit communicates. You are still on the whole born again thing accompanied by great spiritual manifestations bit.

It is possible to go through life and arrive at decisions on a lot of things by the power of the HG without having to go to great lengths and procedures spiritually. Not saying on "all things" just most things. Some things do take lots of fasting and prayer.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 2:05 pm

Slow steady influence by the spirit? Sure, it happens and is essential. Promptings? Of course, we must follow them. Fruits of the Spirit? They are wonderful. Over a long period of time you can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost guide your studies, subtly showing you what to read, which talks to listen to etc. This is not the same thing as what President Kimball sought out and obtained. In order to truly know by the Power of the Holy Ghost, you must seek and obtain the same thing in the same way that the Prophets of old did.

thestock wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 2:08 pm

Having a specific question, fasting for 1-3 days, and praying fervently on the evening of the last day of fast expecting to receive the answer has worked wonders for me. There's something special about having clear expectations. We can persuade the Lord, we really can.

Doing all of the above and also smoking a good amount of ganja works, as well.
Oh yeah? I have a buddy who attributes more spiritual experiences to weed than to his time praying. (I don't believe his experiences were of God simply because they never resulted in any change of heart, he lived a worldy life before and after, not a care in the world)

Stahura wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 2:05 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 1:04 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 10:40 am

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 6:26 am The Spirit works in a myriad of ways and manifests itself different with people according to their understanding and knowledge. We should all realize as baptized and confirmed members that everyone of us has the companionship of the spirit to lead and guide us in "every" decision as long as we are living righteously. Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there. What we should be striving to acknowledge though is that the HG teaches and leads us in "all things" and brings "all things" to our remembrance.

"Sometimes we need great spiritual manifestations to help us realize the HG is there".

"I don't need great manifestations"

"That's sign seeking"

. It's such a shame that the Gospel has been watered down, that the Power of the Holy Ghost has been replaced with small warm happy fuzzies, feelings that are felt in literally every other Christian congregation.

The prophets of old fasted for days and days and sacrificed ALL THINGS to obtain the knowledge of the things that we think we also know.

Do you really suppose Alma and Nephi and Moroni suffered all kinds of afflictions and fasted for days and denied themselves of all the things the world offers just to go and feel warm fuzzies?
Do you really suppose that you come to know the same things as the prophets old of without doing the same things that Alma and Nephi and Moroni had to do? Such foolishness.

The prophets of old fasted and prayed and suffered afflictions of all kinds, always staying faithful UNTIL they obtained powerful manifestations of the Holy Ghost, or the visitation of Angels, or visitations of God himself and somehow we, in 2019, assume that we obtain the same knowledge through a completely different experience doing a 100th of what they had to do to obtain their knowledge.

Alma said :

46 Behold, I say unto you they are made known unto me by the Holy Spirit of God. Behold, I have fasted and prayed many days that I might know these things of myself. And now I do know of myself that they are true; for the Lord God hath made them manifest unto me by his Holy Spirit; and this is the spirit of revelation which is in me.

He is not referring to warm fuzzies, or "peace" or what you suppose is "joy". That does not give you a knowledge of things. They fast and prayed many days in order to receive a great and miraculous manifestation of the Holy Ghost, to have the Holy Ghost come upon with them power.

If you think that someone suggests you need this is sign seeking or faithless, then you do not understand what you condemn. With these experiences come pure intelligence and knowledge by the Holy Ghost, and until such a person shed's their unbelief and experiences it for themselves, they'll continue receiving the fruits of unbelief.

If you are seeking knowledge in any point of the Gospel, any point or feeling or emotion or "nudge" is just that. It's a nudge, an approval that you are on the correct course. Do not suppose that is the answer. Move on, continue, march forward until you obtain a true knowledge in that point. It's not about the experience, it's not about having "cool stories" , it's not about feeling "better" than others. It's that the Lord provides instant knowledge and understanding through those experiences. Just like the Mighty Change happens in an instant, just like immediately after the Baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost you simply have an instant knowledge that Jesus is your Savior, a knowledge you realize you did not have 10 seconds prior, you too will have instant understanding of other things when you do what Alma did.

When you plant a seed, is all done when you see the plant sprout? Of course not, yet this is what many do when they suppose they have received revelation. "OH! Warm fuzzie! All done!. No, you feed it, you water it and take care of it. When the tree is fully grown, is it done? NO! It must still bring forth fruit!

I think we are largely speaking about different things. I was clarifying a bit on how the spirit communicates. You are still on the whole born again thing accompanied by great spiritual manifestations bit.

It is possible to go through life and arrive at decisions on a lot of things by the power of the HG without having to go to great lengths and procedures spiritually. Not saying on "all things" just most things. Some things do take lots of fasting and prayer.

I'm not talking about spiritual rebirth here in this thread, but the experience of having the power of the Holy Ghost wrought upon you can be similar or even identical to when you received the baptism of fire and Holy Ghost.
The Power of the Holy Ghost is not something that comes upon you gradually. I'm saying that we "Know" at lot less than we think we know. I went my whole life thinking I "Knew" that Jesus is the Savior. Boy oh boy, when I finally came to "Know", I realized that I knew nothing all along.

Slow steady influence by the spirit? Sure, it happens and is essential. Promptings? Of course, we must follow them. Fruits of the Spirit? They are wonderful. Over a long period of time you can feel the influence of the Holy Ghost guide your studies, subtly showing you what to read, which talks to listen to etc. This is not the same thing as what President Kimball sought out and obtained. In order to truly know by the Power of the Holy Ghost, you must seek and obtain the same thing in the same way that the Prophets of old did.

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 3:08 pm
Well, I disagree to some extent. I have had great spiritual confirmations that come almost instantly when I pray or at certain times. Its not a requirement. Now, given that someone wants to put forth a great effort spiritually on a certain thing they most likely will receive a great spiritual manifestation if its done so and approached in the right manner.

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 2:35 pm Right after I joined the Church in 1974 I found out that blacks could not hold the priesthood. I did not like it and I prayed often that this would change, I could not see why it should not. But, I never heard one person in the Church or out of the Church complain about it. I heard people in the Church try to explain it and for the most part they did not sound like they knew what they were talking about, except a few GAs, but I never heard anyone on the outside talk about it until afterwards, it was like they did not even know until it hit the news and then almost everything they said was negative. I did not see the Church being pressured by anyone on this issue.

Stahura wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 3:08 pm
Well, I disagree to some extent. I have had great spiritual confirmations that come almost instantly when I pray or at certain times. Its not a requirement. Now, given that someone wants to put forth a great effort spiritually on a certain thing they most likely will receive a great spiritual manifestation if its done so and approached in the right manner.

I'm with you here.
I have as well, my emphasis is on the end result more than the path there. There are always exceptions, and I don't even think the exceptions are that rare.

As long as someone is equating their answers with the same answers the prophets received in the scriptures without receiving precisely what the prophets received, I'm going to disagree.Many members of the church, especially youth, merely go through the motions. They don't spend a particularly large amount of time contemplating the things of God or truly repenting and praying to God with all the energy of their heart. They check boxes off, "Feel the spirit"(Meaning warm fuzzies, some of the fruits of the influence of the spirit) and they take these feelings and testify that "They KNOW".

They don't know anything, but they think they know, and they won't actually know until they humble themselves or are compelled to be humble and truly come to know their Savior by the Power of the Holy Ghost. This NEEDS TO HAPPEN to them, otherwise SOMETHING WILL SHAKE THEIR FAITH and they will abandon their God because of their faulty foundation. By the same power of the Holy Ghost that comes upon them, giving them a knowledge of their Savior, they will know all other things, but this knowledge will not come in the way the used to think that "They Know".

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 12:40 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 3:08 pm
Well, I disagree to some extent. I have had great spiritual confirmations that come almost instantly when I pray or at certain times. Its not a requirement. Now, given that someone wants to put forth a great effort spiritually on a certain thing they most likely will receive a great spiritual manifestation if its done so and approached in the right manner.

I'm with you here.
I have as well, my emphasis is on the end result more than the path there. There are always exceptions, and I don't even think the exceptions are that rare.

As long as someone is equating their answers with the same answers the prophets received in the scriptures without receiving precisely what the prophets received, I'm going to disagree.Many members of the church, especially youth, merely go through the motions. They don't spend a particularly large amount of time contemplating the things of God or truly repenting and praying to God with all the energy of their heart. They check boxes off, "Feel the spirit"(Meaning warm fuzzies, some of the fruits of the influence of the spirit) and they take these feelings and testify that "They KNOW".

They don't know anything, but they think they know, and they won't actually know until they humble themselves or are compelled to be humble and truly come to know their Savior by the Power of the Holy Ghost. This NEEDS TO HAPPEN to them, otherwise SOMETHING WILL SHAKE THEIR FAITH and they will abandon their God because of their faulty foundation. By the same power of the Holy Ghost that comes upon them, giving them a knowledge of their Savior, they will know all other things, but this knowledge will not come in the way the used to think that "They Know".

I generally agree. I do remember when I was a little child and having a mountain of faith and testimony. Reading back through my mom's journal she kept of the family it's really interesting that a lot of the times prayers were answered through the children. I remember praying once when I was really young that the wind would stop. Almost immediately it stopped. We had incredible amounts of faith when me and my siblings were young. I remember vaguely now how bright and strong my testimony of Jesus was back then. But then, like happens to us, sin enters our lives and before long we forget those feelings and manifestations and so, when we get them again we think it's for the first time. So, when I, as a child, testified of the Savior, I really did know. Now I'm just in the process of regaining what I once knew and felt so we'll.

I do agree that because of the veil of unbelief that covers our eyes as we begin to sin that it's hard to really "know".

Stahura wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 12:44 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 12:40 pm

Stahura wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 12:13 pm

Cheetos wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 3:08 pm
Well, I disagree to some extent. I have had great spiritual confirmations that come almost instantly when I pray or at certain times. Its not a requirement. Now, given that someone wants to put forth a great effort spiritually on a certain thing they most likely will receive a great spiritual manifestation if its done so and approached in the right manner.

I'm with you here.
I have as well, my emphasis is on the end result more than the path there. There are always exceptions, and I don't even think the exceptions are that rare.

As long as someone is equating their answers with the same answers the prophets received in the scriptures without receiving precisely what the prophets received, I'm going to disagree.Many members of the church, especially youth, merely go through the motions. They don't spend a particularly large amount of time contemplating the things of God or truly repenting and praying to God with all the energy of their heart. They check boxes off, "Feel the spirit"(Meaning warm fuzzies, some of the fruits of the influence of the spirit) and they take these feelings and testify that "They KNOW".

They don't know anything, but they think they know, and they won't actually know until they humble themselves or are compelled to be humble and truly come to know their Savior by the Power of the Holy Ghost. This NEEDS TO HAPPEN to them, otherwise SOMETHING WILL SHAKE THEIR FAITH and they will abandon their God because of their faulty foundation. By the same power of the Holy Ghost that comes upon them, giving them a knowledge of their Savior, they will know all other things, but this knowledge will not come in the way the used to think that "They Know".

I generally agree. I do remember when I was a little child and having a mountain of faith and testimony. Reading back through my mom's journal she kept of the family it's really interesting that a lot of the times prayers were answered through the children. I remember praying once when I was really young that the wind would stop. Almost immediately it stopped. We had incredible amounts of faith when me and my siblings were young. I remember vaguely now how bright and strong my testimony of Jesus was back then. But then, like happens to us, sin enters our lives and before long we forget those feelings and manifestations and so, when we get them again we think it's for the first time. So, when I, as a child, testified of the Savior, I really did know. Now I'm just in the process of regaining what I once knew and felt so we'll.

I do agree that because of the veil of unbelief that covers our eyes as we begin to sin that it's hard to really "know".

That's amazing, it really is. I personally don't think most Mormon children experience what you did as a child. I sure didn't. Whether that's a result of your parents, or you, or your surroundings I don't know, but I'm not sure a lot of us experience what you did as a little child.

Anyways, I'm glad we came to a "general agreement"

Stahura wrote: ↑May 8th, 2019, 12:20 pm

Craig Johnson wrote: ↑May 7th, 2019, 2:35 pm Right after I joined the Church in 1974 I found out that blacks could not hold the priesthood. I did not like it and I prayed often that this would change, I could not see why it should not. But, I never heard one person in the Church or out of the Church complain about it. I heard people in the Church try to explain it and for the most part they did not sound like they knew what they were talking about, except a few GAs, but I never heard anyone on the outside talk about it until afterwards, it was like they did not even know until it hit the news and then almost everything they said was negative. I did not see the Church being pressured by anyone on this issue.

The source I listed includes information on outside pressure, but that link no longer goes where it used to.. I'll have to find it again sometime.