Denver Snuffer says you don't need him "if". Why do you think you do?

[BringerOfJoy]

Pretty impressive response, Endless. In the probably 15 or so emails I've sent Denver since 2010, he's answered maybe 4 of them. (Or he waited a long time and answered them in a blog post or a talk). I also realize he has a busy family and work life, and has been pretty tied up with talks and books since 2013, so I usually don't really expect one, anyway.

[endlessQuestions]

I had a good conversation with Denver tonight and will be typing up the answers he provided to my questions for him to review and expound upon if he wants to. When he returns them to me I'll post them here so everyone can see his responses.

I wanted to thank Jalden for his/her post because it helped me craft a follow up question that I couldn't seem to formulate in my own mind until I read the post. So thanks.

Everyone have a good night. Thank you all for your assistance, patience, and tolerance over the past couple of days. God bless. And forgive me if this post comes through twice. I wrote it once and my browser puked on me when I hit the "Submit" button. This is attempt number two.

[underdog]

To endless,

YOU:

"What I have written is taken from the scriptures, primarily the Book of Mormon. If you understood the scriptures you wouldn’t even need what I’ve written."

This teaching caused me to ask two questions. The first was this:

QUESTION: "Is it true that what Denver has written is taken from the scriptures, primarily the Book of Mormon?"

ME: Obviously Denver is quoting much from ALL the other standard works, esp the BOM, but he quotes heavily from the DC, and the OT and NT, and POGP, and Joseph Smith. THE POINT about the BOM is, and you won't get this unless you've read it and understand, but the BOM is a "type" of things to come. It's a prophesy for our day. If you don't "get" that, like the overwhelming vast majority of LDS do not get it, then you cannot comprehend Denver's quote above about him borrowing "primarily from the BOM." For example, Abinadi vs. the established religious hierarchy is a type for OUR day. That's just one example, but the entire book is written for our day, as a prophesy. Mormon put the very detailed story of Abinadi in his abridgment for a very good reason. What was that reason? It's obvious if you have the spirit of prophesy, or as Nephi put it in 2 Nephi 25: "...in the days that the prophecies of Isaiah (or the types in the BOM) shall be fulfilled men shall know of a surety, at the times when they shall come to pass." If you're married to tradition, or {LDS) tradition is more than important than truth, than you will not and cannot see or "know of a surety." One disastrous tradition is declared in OD1 by W. Woodruff, where a philosophy of man has been mingled with scripture but is totally unsupported by and even proven false by scripture.

You said: "The vast majority of what Denver has written is his interpretation of what he believes the scriptures are trying to communicate."

Of course, he writes his own interpretation. EVERY author, every blogger, every historian does that. We are all the SAME in this regard. The key is given, however, in 2 Peter 1:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We must understand that GOD is the one who interprets, not man. After all it's GOD'S words, and He has the sole right to interpret it. So when we read any commentary or "interpretations" by men, we must get God's approval by the Spirit or by God's own voice, as Moroni testified: "And then shall ye know that I have seen Jesus, and that he hath talked with me face to face, and that he told me in plain humility, even as a man telleth another in mine own language, concerning these things." (Ether 12:39).

QUESTION: "Do I need Denver Snuffer to understand the scriptures?"

I don't know why this question is being asked. Who here or in the LDS Church believes we need another man to understand the Scriptures?! Denver's main message is this: (from 2 Nephi 4): O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

So any attempt by critics to make Snuffer sound like he teaches that you need him is baseless, and on its face, proof that one doesn't understand what he's saying. From Isaiah 6: "Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

You said: I am, on the other hand, happy to hear why those who follow him believe that they can't understand the scriptures without Denver Snuffer as their guide, and why they've therefore decided to accept his interpretations as authoritative and follow his teachings, up to and including his teaching that you must be rebaptized."

Snuffer utterly disrespects those who would "follow" him or have him be their "leader". It's important to understand this point. He doesn't want a "following." I believe he testifies, and I certainly testify, that ALL institutions or organizations are prone to be infiltrated and taken over. The enemy immediately plants tares, and though it may take decades, sooner or later most if not all large "organizations" fall victim to the great and abominable church. Strength and purity lies in ideas, in the "fulness of the gospel", not in organizations. Zion will be redeemed at an individual level, and those who gather will be the pure in heart, not those "who are of Paul, and of Apollos, and of Cephas. These are they who say they are some of one and some of another—some of Christ and some of John, and some of Moses, and some of Elias, and some of Esaias, and some of Isaiah, and some of Enoch; But received not the gospel, neither the testimony of Jesus, neither the prophets, neither the everlasting covenant." DC 101:99-101.

[endlessQuestions]

thanks underdog, I appreciate your thoughts. Reading The Book of Mormon as a prophecy instead of a history isn't something I'd ever really considered, although I've always known there are prophecies in The Book of Mormon. It's an interesting perspective, and worth further inquiry, I think.

Your scriptural example of 2 Peter 1 was helpful as well.

Part of your message said this:

So any attempt by critics to make Snuffer sound like he teaches that you need him is baseless, and on its face, proof that one doesn't understand what he's saying.

I want to make it clear that I'm no critic of Snuffer (nor am I a sympathizer), if you're referring to me in your comment. I'm an honest seeker of truth and I had an honest question that needed to be answered in order for me to continue to move forward in my search for truth. I'm incredibly grateful that Denver took the time to answer that question (or those questions, to be more precise), and hope it will be useful to others who come here with the same or similar questions.

I will just point out as well that I never inferred that Denver teaches that we need him. I found a quote in which he said that "if we understood the scriptures, we wouldn't even need his writings. And I never claimed to understand what he's saying, either. I was only very recently introduced to the work of Mr. Snuffer, and therefore make no claim to have any kind of understanding, or even familiarity, with what he's teaching as a whole.

If your comment was not directed towards me, but made as a more general statement, please accept my apology for taking it personally. No harm, no foul, I hope.

Finally, you say that 'Snuffer utterly disrespects those who would "follow" him or have him be their "leader"'. I will only say what Mr. Snuffer says at his blog, which is that he has no spokesman. I'd hate for people to read those words and get the wrong idea from them. If people want to know if Mr. Snuffer disrespects anybody else, they can approach him with the question. I don't know that he'll answer it, but it would be wrong to just suppose it, or take the word of somebody else on the issue.

One of the things I admire very much about Denver is his love for the scriptures. From your comment it seems you share that attribute with him and I'm grateful you shared what you did. I too love the scriptures, and pray that the Lord will unfold the meaning of them to my eyes as I earnestly study them and try to discern their message.

Thanks again for your post. I enjoyed reading it, and it gives me much to think about and act upon.

[endlessQuestions]

All,

Denver recently sent me his cleaned up answers from last night and has authorized me to post them here at the forum. Just to let you know how this worked, before we spoke on the phone I sent Mr. Snuffer an email containing an agenda that included two specific questions I was requesting he provide an answer for. At the end of the conversation he asked me to read the questions aloud to him because he wasn't able to see them any longer, which I did. As he spoke I took notes, which were slightly messy. At the end of the conversation I took those notes, put them in a Word document, and sent them to Mr. Snuffer to review, correct, and/or expound upon if he wanted to. Looking at what he sent back, it doesn't appear he added anything, but just made the notes I had taken readable, and in his own voice. Below are the questions, along with the answers he provided.

------------------------ START QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ---------------------------------------

Question 1: You’ve taught in the past that “What I have written is taken from the scriptures, primarily the Book of Mormon. If you understood the scriptures you wouldn’t even need what I’ve written”. Would it be true to say, then, that if I understand the scriptures, or am able to come to understand them through diligent study and sincere prayer without referencing your work, I don’t need to know anything about what you’ve said, taught, or are currently doing and can just continue my journey as though I’d never heard your name?”

ANSWER: What I write and how I write is intended to help others in their study of scripture. The more information you can bring with you to study scripture the more you will see within them. The Spirit can use the information I provide to help flesh out a person’s understanding. Joseph expounded the scriptures often, as did the angels who ministered to Joseph. Christ did likewise. We can all benefit from having our minds opened to
the understanding of the scriptures in a deeper, more living sense. I’ve always said to look at scriptures, that the fullness of the gospel is contained in them, particularly in the Book of Mormon. I feel my work will enormously increase the understanding of how the fullness is contained in the Book of Mormon, and that my experiences with the Lord can help us like the eunuch reading Isaiah in confusion. But Philip, who understood the passage related to Christ explained it to him because of his (Philip’s) greater understanding. (See Acts 8:27-38.)

I’ve always told people that they don't “feast on me”—that is reserved for Christ alone. But I believe I provide significant insight from my experiences. I believe that as people grow in their knowledge they won’t need me at all and that they’ll be able to stand independent of everything under heaven, for they will know the Lord.

I would like to see many witnesses (meaning eye witnesses of the resurrected Lord) and I feel I’m leading people down the same path that has worked for me and all others who have encountered Him. I believe those teachings will create those witnesses, who are so needed in this dark world.

Question 2: Is there communication God is attempting to give disciples of Jesus Christ that I can’t learn in any other source than your writings?

ANSWER: There are some things that the Lord has specifically instructed and wants us to do in the beginning of this process or returning to Him. Because the restoration won’t be finished until a people are prepared and the Lord can resume the restoration to complete it. Those instructions are being given to me and the voice I am raising is a petition from the Lord asking us to get ready for what’s to come. In Zion there will be no need for
any man to tell another “know ye the Lord, for they shall all know Him, from the least to the greatest.” That will not happen without men responding to God. It is God’s work, but it requires us to respond to His invitation. I am authorized to extend the invitation and it will be God who responds if you seek Him.

-------------------------------------------- END QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS ---------------------------------

-------------------------------------------- START EMAIL THREAD BETWEEN DENVER AND ENDLESS ---------

An Email (LDSFF)

January 6, 2016 Denver 0 Comment Thoughts
I got an email from an anonymous individual at the ldsfreedom forum which inquired:

Mr. Snuffer,

I’ve created a post over at ldsfreedomforum asking you to clarify a teaching you put forth some time ago. The link to that posting is viewtopic.php?f=14&t=41084" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

All the relevant information regarding my question can be found on the posting, so I won’t repeat it here.

Thank you for considering my invitation to have a dialogue about this particular teaching. I’m sending this request from an anonymous email address out of a desire to remain entirely unknown, as I’d rather have people focused on the facts rather than the personalities insofar as it is possible. My handle on ldsfreedomforum is endlessismyname. Any reply you make to this email will only be available to me for one hour from when it is sent, so I will monitor this inbox for the next 12 hours and then try again tomorrow if I haven’t heard back. Another option is for you to send me a private message on the forum.

Thanks,

endless

_____________________

I responded

Is it possible to talk by phone? It would require a lot of typing and I’d rather save the time and talk. I have a day-long trial preparation meeting with co-counsel tomorrow, an oral argument hearing on Friday, and I am preparing for a Federal jury trial in a couple of weeks. So spending a lot of time typing an email is problematic for my schedule.

If you’d like, I can give you my office phone (provided in my email)
Or my cell phone if you will keep it confidential.

-Denver Snuffer
I sent another follow-up email to the same anonymous inquirer explaining:
I followed your link and tried to put my email response up there. It requires me to register and choose a password and then puts me into the middle of that forum. I do not want to get tangled up in that setting and have my inability to continue to monitor and respond there to be interpreted as something other than I am busy. So I’m not inclined to join their forum and become a fixture there (as would undoubtedly become required if I want to be understood).

I never post anonymously on any site.
__________________________________
He has responded:
Denver,

Thank you very much for your prompt reply, especially considering the limited time you have available due to your work obligations. I’m happy to talk on the phone but I worry that I may not represent your answer accurately if I try to report back to the forum regarding our conversation, especially if the answer is involved (which it sounds like it might be). Would it be okay with you if I take notes while we talk, create a summary that I think accurately reflects your response to my question, and then pass that summary back to you for your approval before posting it back to the forum?

I don’t know how late you work but I won’t be available to talk until this evening. If you’d like me to call your cell, just send it over in a separate email. I’m happy to keep it confidential.

Thanks again. I look forward to talking to you and getting a clear understanding of what your thoughts are regarding my question.

endless

I just replied:
That would be fine. I like the approach.

I have a suggestion, however: Your email deletes and you are nameless, and unidentified. I don’t really care who you are, and I respect your desire to remain unidentified, but it would be better if you use a real contact source so these emails do not disappear (as the first already have). I have no reason to reveal your identity to anyone.

My cell is:———— (provided in the email)
-Denver Snuffer
_______________________
He wrote again:
Understood. I’ve noticed that you sometimes respond to questions on your personal blog. Would providing clarification to this question be something worth doing over there? That way you wouldn’t have to join a forum (which I don’t blame you for not wanting to do. I joined it yesterday simply because I was trying to find a way to contact you, and was told those at the forum might be able to help with that).
I hope you don’t mind my posting anonymously. It stems from nothing more than a desire to not be seen as either a friend or an enemy of Denver Snuffer. In reality I am neither. I’m somebody who has been approached by a dear friend with an invitation to examine your teachings who now needs some clarification regarding a teaching that is causing me some confusion.I’ll post your response on the forum so that you don’t have to join. Thanks for trying to do it yourself.

endless

I replied:
I have been updating our emails on my website because I was not really certain when your email first arrived how to regard it. I thought it might be nothing more than spam, or someone baiting me and wanting to accuse me of hiding. So I put it up to make my willingness to respond public.

I’ve updated them on my website and they are available there- so feel free to do the same at the other location if you choose.
-Denver Snuffer
_______________________________
He replied:
Duplicating everything won’t be necessary. If they conversation is documented on your site I don’t feel it necessary to duplicate the effort on the forum. I’ll just point people towards your blog and they can monitor the conversation from there if they want to.

I’m happy to provide you with an email address that allows us to retain the emails moving forward. I appreciate your respect for my desire to remain anonymous. I have several reasons for doing this, not the least of which is that I don’t want to influence anyone that knows me with my questions. I’d like everyone to be able to come with their own questions, without preconceived notions or prejudices based on my identity.

I’ll send you an email from my normal address momentarily.

_______________________

In his last response he provided information about contact I will keep confidential as I agreed. But I also sent him this brief summary about myself:



No problem. And now I will not update the website with anything further from you:

How about after 6:30 pm? I’m pretty open from then for an hour or so.
It would still involve a good deal of typing:
For example by way of introduction:
I spent two decades teaching Gospel Doctrine Class in Pleasant Grove, then Alpine, then in two different stakes in Sandy, and in the last stake in two different wards. I taught by lecture, not by soliciting input from the class. Someone would have to raise their hand if they wanted to participate. I assumed the burden was on me to make the material useful. I spent between 10 and 20 hours each week to prepare a 50 minute presentation. I did not want to ever say the same thing twice. Therefore each time through the scriptures (and in two decades each of the standard works were taught 5 times) the exposition revisited the material from a more expansive study than the one four years earlier.
I wanted the class to expand my own understanding. Therefore whatever had been taught before was kept in memory while I studied to find what else might contribute to the material.
I’ve kept those study habits. I still work about 10 to 20 hours a week over the scriptures and church history.
As I did the math recently, I estimated that I have logged about 35,000 hours of scripture study since being converted to Mormonism. As a result of that I think in terms of the scriptures. Passages run through my mind continually. They are my companion in life. When I was 13 I would have told you apart from my own thoughts, the strongest voice in my mind came from Mark Twain (I had read practically everything he had written by then). Today I would say the strongest voice in my mind apart from my own thoughts, comes through the language of scripture and are continually the source I ponder, reflect upon, weigh, and seek to understand.
Although I have had many remarkable experiences with God, I have found the scriptures contain everything necessary to discuss every topic. Even things I thought were original and revealed for the first time to me upon returning to study I have found are already there in scripture. I just could not see it until it had been shown to me. Then through the light of a new revelation I learned that Isaiah, or Daniel, or Christ already addressed the matter but it was hidden from my view until I saw it as well.
This is the sort of thing that requires a great deal of typing to set out, and even this is cryptic and summary. I would ask if you’ve read Malcom Gladwell’s book, Outliers at this point in a conversation. In there he mentions that it takes about 10,000 hours of preparation before someone becomes accomplished in any skill. It is Gladwell’s observation, and it may or may not be accurate. But when I read his book I was reminded of what the scriptures have done to influence my own life and how I’ve logged more hours by three times than he suggests produces competence.
Well, I look forward to your call.
-Denver Snuffer
________________________________
FINAL NOTE:
He called and we spoke last evening (January 6th) from 7:02 pm to 8:26 pm according to the clock in my room. He has provided a summary of the answers to his two questions and I have edited it to make it more complete and he will put it up on the LDSFF.

-------------------------------------- END EMAIL THREAD BETWEEN DENVER AND ENDLESS -----------------

I hope this helps anybody who might have the same or similar questions. I have one last thought, one that I shared on an earlier posting and with Denver, that I'd like to repeat. I'm going to do it in another comment though, because it's a bit long-ish.

Thanks again for everybody's assistance. It's been a real pleasure getting to know some of you and sharing thoughts and ideas back and forth.

[endlessQuestions]

This is what I wrote to Denver when I sent him my notes from our conversation last night:

It seems to me that much of the controversy that's taken place throughout the history of the restoration revolves around where the power and authority of God lies. During my scripture studies last night I was led to this scripture which enlightened my mind and made me feel a tremendous amount of peace and joy. It's from Mosiah 27, when the angel of the Lord appears to Alma the Younger. The angel tells Alma the Younger:

"for he (Alma) has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith."

My most sincere desire is to be brought to a knowledge of the truth, and to return to live with my Father and Heaven again someday. All those involved in the restoration, whether it be LDS, Community of Christ, (me), or Denver Snuffer all believe in prayer, we all believe in faith, and we all talk openly about the existence of the power and authority of God. Unfortunately, we seem to be struggling to come to a consensus as to where the power and authority of God resides. If I could stand up in front of all of us I think (the message I would want to share) would be this: for those of (us) who believe (we) are Alma from this story, the (scriptures) (teach) that (our) duty is to pray in faith that (our) brothers and sisters will come to know where the power and authority of God resides. If each (us supposed) Alma's offers those faithful prayers, the scriptures testify that God will, in time, send his angels to reveal the truth to those of (us) who (will be surprised to find that we) are actually Alma the Youngers(!) Then we can get on with doing the work we've been asked to!

I know that in time it will be made manifest to each of us where the power and authority of God resides. While I am still seeking an answer to my questions I have a profound sense of gratitude for those who take the time to pray for me, work with me, and engage in civil dialogue so I can come to know the truth for myself...." (my parantheses that change a few small things and reflect my feelings at this moment)

-------------------------------------------

The same sense of gratitude I feel for Mr. Snuffer, I feel for you. I don't spend much time on forums so you probably won't see me hanging around all that much, but I'll check in over the next week or so to answer any questions I can and follow the thread through the end of its life.

Regards,

endless

[deep water]

Well if Log is a robot I suppose I might be Denver Snuffer... but I'm not. :))

I don't know why Denver chose to respond to me. I will say that I've had great luck in getting people to respond to my inquiries when others have had no such luck. If anyone wants to discuss my thoughts on why that might be, feel free to PM me and I'd be happy to have the conversation. Or we can start a thread; there's nothing secret about how I approach issues like this, and I'm happy to share with everybody what I've learned.

I'm not sure how to respond to some of the other comments. My aim is simple, and my desires pure.

I aim to get an answer to a question that sincerely puzzles me. At this point I have as good a shot as I can hope for to accomplish that.

My desire is to learn the truth regarding if and/or how Denver Snuffer is related to my discipleship. Getting an answer to this question is a piece of information that will help me fulfill my desire.

I understand that many of you feel you have already learned for yourself how to relate to this man who claims to have been commissioned by Christ to perform a work in His name. I have not - but I'm one step closer today than I was yesterday. I appreciate your patience as I work through the issue in the way I feel comfortable doing it.

endless

God is in control of everything. You might ask God why Denver responded to Your request, when so many have gone unanswered. You might try an experment. After searching Denver's teaching, do you hear the voice of the good sheppard, the one found in scripture? You claim to have studied the good Sheppard's words enough that you will not follow another. Is Denver's words an extension of Christs words? Or is conference talks an extension of Christs words? Those who are under condemnation pronounced through the mouth of God? Will you rail against God in declaring the words spoken at conference, by man under condemnation, as His? Do those who speak at Conference live as a Saints = All things common? Do they live as Equals, every member of the Body of Christ just as important as the other? Not dressing in expensive dress (coat and ties), not setting in the high seats, not accepting honor or praise, for there is only one worthy of honor or praise? Christ has told us that a man dressed in white will lead us into the mists of darkness. Christ has told us that those who are delivered will actually believe in Him and will call upon Him for deliverance. Christ has told us that the pure words of Christ , make up the Iron Rod, Who is suggesting that you follow them and their words, and who is suggesting you search out Christs words, and call upon Christ for deliverance?

[endlessQuestions]

deep water,

Those are wonderful questions, and ones I hope each of us ask ourselves and find answers to. Part of why I engaged in this exercise was to continue pressing forward in my quest to learn the answers to those questions for myself, and I consider the exercise a great success.

May I ask where I claimed to have "studied the good Sheppard's words enough that you will not follow another"? That's not a claim I would feel comfortable making and if I said it, I need to retract those words immediately and change the language to something I can stand by.

endless

[underdog]

Endless,

Thanks for sharing this post.

Let me quote Snuffer about his feelings toward anybody who follows him:
"I have no respect for anyone who calls him/herself a “Snufferite.” They have no support or encouragement from me. When have I asked anyone to follow me? When have I asked anyone to believe in me? I point only to belief in Christ and following Him. If you are following me, stop it. Follow Him alone who can save you. (John 14: 6.)"

You could Google that quote and it would take you to his blog probably.

I'm new too at hearing of Snuffer. I just finished his 10 talks a few days ago. Enlightening and inspiring. I see nothing out of harmony with the Scriptures. I tend to believe he has experienced what he says he's experienced in which case that has major, life changing implications for LDS.

[Jesef]

underdog, I invite you to read this post and this whole thread if you haven't already. I'm not traditional per se in many of my LDS views, btw:
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39941&p=676996#p676902

[zionminded]

endless, I liked your question to DS. I'd be curious if he replies, and what he has to say.

For me, as I think about how Id answer that question, I find myself looking at human agency in all this. I think the Lord gave a great deal of latitude and authority to men (and women) to act in the name of God. Furthermore, I think we will find that his kingdom is broad, and he is laying the groundwork for many to be involved in the end times situation and also in the salvation of mankind.

I think the LDS church has a bit of pride in this way, that they hold ALL the truth, keys, authority etc. Then when somebody doesn't get covered by that, they fall into the temple work program for the dead. While I think the church does have much of the keys, truth and authority, the exclusive club doesn't quite fit with me very well. I think we will find the authority of God aspect resided in him, and he gave us small parts for our respective and collective growth over time when needed.

[endlessQuestions]

zionminded,

The answers from Denver come earlier in this thread. If anybody knows of a way to link directly to that answer, please let me know, and I'll do that here.

[Sariel]

Endlessismyname,

Who are you? It appears to me that the only reason Denver posted the details of your exchange on his blog is because of who you are. From what he said, it seems he is just preventing criticism, which he already has from many people. The difference here has to be your identity.

"I thought it might be nothing more than spam, or someone baiting me and wanting to accuse me of hiding. So I put it up to make my willingness to respond public." -from Denver's blog post

[endlessQuestions]

Sariel,

I am trying very hard to keep this thread focused on the factual content that is contained herein. I have made a very conscious choice not to allow my appearance, personality, or anything else that might distract you from paying attention to the content of the discourse become a part of the process.

I hope it's clear that I did not "criticize" Mr. Snuffer. I asked a set of questions based on Mr. Snuffer's own words that caused me confusion. Mr. Snuffer felt compelled to address those questions for reasons only he knows. The question, the answer, and the way both were formulated are now a matter of public record and are available to review by any who desire to see them.

You ask who I am. I am a seeker of truth. A believer in the ability of man to discern the truth. And an advocate for the careful examination of any and all information that comes before us claiming to be truth or represent the mind and will of he who refers to himself as "the way, and the truth, and the life" because, as he says, "no one comes to the Father but through me".

Thanks for the question. I hope the information in the thread is helpful to you and others.

[North_Star]

1 Nephi 21 (see Isaiah 49)

3 And said unto me: Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

4 Then I said, I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for naught and in vain; surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.


6 And he said: It is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel. I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the ends of the earth.

10 They shall not hunger nor thirst, neither shall the heat nor the sun smite them; for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.

14 But, behold, Zion hath said: The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me—but he will show that he hath not.

16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.

[zionminded]

zionminded,

The answers from Denver come earlier in this thread. If anybody knows of a way to link directly to that answer, please let me know, and I'll do that here.

Here
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=41084#p676833" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thank you

[Sariel]

You're very polite, endlessismyname.

Denver has answered many questions on his blog without revealing who asked the question and I never wondered who asked the question. But when someone announces they will stay anonymous to not distract from the question, I do wonder who the person is and why they think their identity would be distracting.

So I guess for me the plan backfired, because I'm more interested in why your identity is a secret than what Denver's answer is. I'm sorry though, I don't mean to give you too much grief.

[zionsremnant]

I am new to this board so I come in and say hi to everyone.

I have been an active member of the LDS church, born and raised, and an active studying and researcher of Scripture, God's Word, books, history, and all I could get my hands on for as long as I remember.

It takes such long and ponderous thought to get to conclusions without the common carnal body, with can include the mind or heart depending on how set on Christ and truth or pure it is and not just emotional, or other knee jerk reactions to anything, as each one of us, by the mere reality of having a body, like the Brother of Jared is prone to do.

I prefer to have a believing heart, believing all things as it is shown whether to be true, partially true and a need to search more, or just not a truth whatsoever, but an honest or dishonest opinion. There are many options to respond to the Spirit, or the lack thereof.

With enough pondering and studying, then you can see the Truth, if I discount anything, then I don't get the bonified 2nd witness from the Spirit, or from the Word that I missed something. It feels right, therefore it must be right?

I have found that if I doubt someone, or am wary instead of wise, I miss their point and the Spirit simply because I have already cut myself off of the Spirit which can only receive truth if I have the Spirit of Truth. I miss many things, I am afraid because I have not looked at the way in which I am perceiving or receiving, two polar opposites.

I was given information about 7 years ago, before Denver Snuffer ever wrote "Passing the Heavenly Gift", and had just finished the Second Comforter. It was at that time that I knew that those words were true to see, Christ, I did not take it as seriously as I should have at the time, but put it in the same category as John Pontius's Following the LIght of Christ into His Presence, Nibley, Skousen, and other great books.

Without going down a rabbit hole, or inciting any ill response, I will simply state what I found, as there is no intent on my trying to convince anyone of anything. We simply can not convince, we have to receive, we can only share truth by the Spirit, or we can not teach. And if we are influenced with any spirit, which D&C 50 speak about that could be influencing our receiving, like pride, envy, anger, irritation, fear, lust, carnality, distraction, or disbelief, we won't even have the soil to receive.

We go on emotion, and physical response in our mind and not know differently. It is apparent to others who do have the Spirit of Truth, or Wisdom, or Understanding, that another may be lacking but without charity they would not be able to be a seer.

We have lived so far beneath any real revelation, and are under such condemnation and iniquity that we truly have stumbled and will see the great fall of any institution, person, or system that does not recognize Nephi's plea, Moroni's, Isaiah's, and Christ's to get out of pride, and Come unto the Messiah.

How do we purposed to do that without seeing our wicked state as Nephi so clearly stated. I do not want in any way to disparage anyone, or contend, but to bring to light any hidden thing of darkness or enlighten with any bit of Truth, if I have any light in me to share. We must be a light unto the world, especially now.

I was given the information by God, by years of study, and by common sense that after reading Joseph Smith's own words, and being led to understand why contradictions are so vital to our growth, I came to the odd idea that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, and never lied.

It was astonishing. I thought to write Denver this, but I never did. I read "Passing the Heavenly Gift", still being a very active member of the church, which according to all records I still hold.

I was not surprised with any content, except that Denver still did not have all the nefarious information that D&C 123 speaks about. This is only had by studying both the light and the dark, as we are commanded to be able to judge between.

So there was no influence at the time for me of Denver Snuffer in any way. I believe that gives me some merit to speak and join into this discussion fairly and squarely, with no agenda, and no intent to convince anyone of what I have to say.

I have been studying this, because of God's word, not Denver's, because I recognized when the charge to come out from under the condemnation occurred because I had so diligently studied God's word, and knew His voice, not in my head, that is so hard for me to do, but in my heart and understanding.

It is not that Denver just has a gift of expounding the scriptures, or any other gift for that matter. It is that God promised us that He would destroy this land and our church if we joined the world, and to study Isaiah's words to see what that looked like.

And yes, this is a treasured gift, that without ample years of studying God's word or having Understanding poured out from heaven, it simply would be lost.

Christ has promised some specific things in 3 Nephi, that I, my spouse, my brothers, and all my friends have been waiting for - a sign. For there will come a sign that Christ promised when certain things are about to take place and He is to establish His Zion, that there will be those of the Gentiles that will be brought out of hidden darkness (2 Nephi 3), and are given the words of Christ through a man.

There is a man coming, he has power to declare unto the Gentiles certain things that Christ says to him. This is a servant, and it is a man, and he has certain power, only to affect those who hear the words given by a messenger and have faith in those words to come unto Christ, and into His church he establishes prior to a new covenant.

Christ Himself says that this will ONLY happen, after we as the gentile church reject the Fullness of the Gospel, which is Him, and seeing HIm face to face, and He takes the Fullness away from these people who built themselves up in pride that their church and brethren are who they listen to now.

Please, I am not being offensive. I only want to join the discussion as a fellow Saint and if I have any insight, gift, words, experience that could expound anything given, then I would like to do so. Because I was in the same position as many that thought that there was no way my church, although centered on materialism now, and selling outrageously expensive items in an outrageous mall such as City Creek could ever be the church that Christ condemns.

I will not mock, I will not put down anyone's sincere and honest responses, views, opinions, they matter greatly, my words do not matter Christ's word do. This is not about Denver, this is about the promise in Jacob 5 that the Lord is about to burn His vineyard because there is so much fruit, and none of it is good. That is us, by the way. We are not the Church of the Lamb of God unless we know our Savior.

The promises of Isaiah are enlightening! Christ told us 3 times to study them, yet we laugh and sort of get through it in Sunday School after we pontificate that we have already established Zion and it is very pleasant and desirous to the taste, as we are so infiltrated in the world that we have completely lost Christ's gospel that He already prophesied we would.

Only a few that come into His gospel will survive what is coming. It was Christ that gave a particular servant, which I came to believe, not on Denver's words, for his words could be course, and I could not abide that, but in Christ's words that I recognized just as the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus recognized Christ, only after He revealed Himself to them and said most of the world would not even know what He had just done, just as most of the church and world do not recognize and know that the Lord promises to "set His hand a second time, again".

I did not get that from Denver, I got that from years of studying the scriptures believing that God would change the direction of the church, not start His own unto Him.

Christ has had it with where we are at, and the time came that He, God, now said He will graft in a branch, a shoot (Isaiah) for the last time as the cleanse is about to happen, and those that will stick, and become Sons and Daughters of God, will get through the cleanse, and become His servants and help Him get fruit out of His vineyard that He has wept over, as He describes our church in every point.

Nephi prophesied that we, the Gentiles would almost utterly be destroyed mainly because we have built up our churches to get gain, and we don't even know so, we would like to let a Moses, or a Prophet see and speak to the Lord, and not ourselves. This was prophesied, this has happened.

Nothing, and no one, short of God Himself could ever incite, offend, or make me leave my church. We must have understanding of what time it is and the movement happening before we can discount it, or join it. Christ has spoken, do we know His words. Do we draw near unto Him with our lips, and our hearts are on the Super Bowl, or on our careers or shopping when Christ may be among us, or sent servants to cry repentance and prepare a Zion for a very few that are humble and see there is something obviously wrong.

It is about the Lord's timing, not Denver's. Now may we have a honest scriptural discussion, as we should know them as we know Him.

I look forward to being friends and joining in on whatever I may have to offer, as time is short and if we miss Him, we miss the Mark, and the timing right before He lets us be over run by the King of Assyria, the King of the North, and the army in Revelations. How could we miss that we have lost His Hand. It is prophesied by Jacob and every prophet who saw our day, and gave us the bare minimum because the Gentiles are so prideful, and we don't even have the next scriptures yet because we have fallen asleep. (2 Nephi 27)

Please let us speak about the scriptures and the Word we hold so dear, and not our own words, emotions, and lack of knowledge, for we will perish without even knowing we are under the curse.

Does anyone here know of Joseph Smith's last vision of the state of the church or the barn, or D&C 101 where we forget to build the tower and we are over run. There is no time to banter, only to appreciate each other's gifts and knowledge and missions foreordained for such a time as this.

Thank you.

[endlessQuestions]

Sariel,

You make a very good point, and one that can't be argued because it was your experience! I'm very sorry that my insistence on anonymity has distracted you from what is key here: the information contained in the questions and the answers.

I hope you can just trust that I am no one of any consequence and focus your attention on what was asked, how it was answered, and what it might mean for you as you strive to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

And don't worry, I didn't feel like you were giving me grief... not in the least.

EDIT: I forgot to thank you for the nice compliment. Thank you!

[Lizzy60]

Welcome!!

You will find some like-minded people here, and some who will call you an apostate. I hope to call you a friend!


.

I am new to this board so I come in and say hi to everyone.

I have been an active member of the LDS church, born and raised, and an active studying and researcher of Scripture, God's Word, books, history, and all I could get my hands on for as long as I remember.

It takes such long and ponderous thought to get to conclusions without the common carnal body, with can include the mind or heart depending on how set on Christ and truth or pure it is and not just emotional, or other knee jerk reactions to anything, as each one of us, by the mere reality of having a body, like the Brother of Jared is prone to do.

I prefer to have a believing heart, believing all things as it is shown whether to be true, partially true and a need to search more, or just not a truth whatsoever, but an honest or dishonest opinion. There are many options to respond to the Spirit, or the lack thereof.

With enough pondering and studying, then you can see the Truth, if I discount anything, then I don't get the bonified 2nd witness from the Spirit, or from the Word that I missed something. It feels right, therefore it must be right?

I have found that if I doubt someone, or am wary instead of wise, I miss their point and the Spirit simply because I have already cut myself off of the Spirit which can only receive truth if I have the Spirit of Truth. I miss many things, I am afraid because I have not looked at the way in which I am perceiving or receiving, two polar opposites.

I was given information about 7 years ago, before Denver Snuffer ever wrote "Passing the Heavenly Gift", and had just finished the Second Comforter. It was at that time that I knew that those words were true to see, Christ, I did not take it as seriously as I should have at the time, but put it in the same category as John Pontius's Following the LIght of Christ into His Presence, Nibley, Skousen, and other great books.

Without going down a rabbit hole, or inciting any ill response, I will simply state what I found, as there is no intent on my trying to convince anyone of anything. We simply can not convince, we have to receive, we can only share truth by the Spirit, or we can not teach. And if we are influenced with any spirit, which D&C 50 speak about that could be influencing our receiving, like pride, envy, anger, irritation, fear, lust, carnality, distraction, or disbelief, we won't even have the soil to receive.

We go on emotion, and physical response in our mind and not know differently. It is apparent to others who do have the Spirit of Truth, or Wisdom, or Understanding, that another may be lacking but without charity they would not be able to be a seer.

We have lived so far beneath any real revelation, and are under such condemnation and iniquity that we truly have stumbled and will see the great fall of any institution, person, or system that does not recognize Nephi's plea, Moroni's, Isaiah's, and Christ's to get out of pride, and Come unto the Messiah.

How do we purposed to do that without seeing our wicked state as Nephi so clearly stated. I do not want in any way to disparage anyone, or contend, but to bring to light any hidden thing of darkness or enlighten with any bit of Truth, if I have any light in me to share. We must be a light unto the world, especially now.

I was given the information by God, by years of study, and by common sense that after reading Joseph Smith's own words, and being led to understand why contradictions are so vital to our growth, I came to the odd idea that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy, and never lied.

It was astonishing. I thought to write Denver this, but I never did. I read "Passing the Heavenly Gift", still being a very active member of the church, which according to all records I still hold.

I was not surprised with any content, except that Denver still did not have all the nefarious information that D&C 123 speaks about. This is only had by studying both the light and the dark, as we are commanded to be able to judge between.

So there was no influence at the time for me of Denver Snuffer in any way. I believe that gives me some merit to speak and join into this discussion fairly and squarely, with no agenda, and no intent to convince anyone of what I have to say.

I have been studying this, because of God's word, not Denver's, because I recognized when the charge to come out from under the condemnation occurred because I had so diligently studied God's word, and knew His voice, not in my head, that is so hard for me to do, but in my heart and understanding.

It is not that Denver just has a gift of expounding the scriptures, or any other gift for that matter. It is that God promised us that He would destroy this land and our church if we joined the world, and to study Isaiah's words to see what that looked like.

And yes, this is a treasured gift, that without ample years of studying God's word or having Understanding poured out from heaven, it simply would be lost.

Christ has promised some specific things in 3 Nephi, that I, my spouse, my brothers, and all my friends have been waiting for - a sign. For there will come a sign that Christ promised when certain things are about to take place and He is to establish His Zion, that there will be those of the Gentiles that will be brought out of hidden darkness (2 Nephi 3), and are given the words of Christ through a man.

There is a man coming, he has power to declare unto the Gentiles certain things that Christ says to him. This is a servant, and it is a man, and he has certain power, only to affect those who hear the words given by a messenger and have faith in those words to come unto Christ, and into His church he establishes prior to a new covenant.

Christ Himself says that this will ONLY happen, after we as the gentile church reject the Fullness of the Gospel, which is Him, and seeing HIm face to face, and He takes the Fullness away from these people who built themselves up in pride that their church and brethren are who they listen to now.

Please, I am not being offensive. I only want to join the discussion as a fellow Saint and if I have any insight, gift, words, experience that could expound anything given, then I would like to do so. Because I was in the same position as many that thought that there was no way my church, although centered on materialism now, and selling outrageously expensive items in an outrageous mall such as City Creek could ever be the church that Christ condemns.

I will not mock, I will not put down anyone's sincere and honest responses, views, opinions, they matter greatly, my words do not matter Christ's word do. This is not about Denver, this is about the promise in Jacob 5 that the Lord is about to burn His vineyard because there is so much fruit, and none of it is good. That is us, by the way. We are not the Church of the Lamb of God unless we know our Savior.

The promises of Isaiah are enlightening! Christ told us 3 times to study them, yet we laugh and sort of get through it in Sunday School after we pontificate that we have already established Zion and it is very pleasant and desirous to the taste, as we are so infiltrated in the world that we have completely lost Christ's gospel that He already prophesied we would.

Only a few that come into His gospel will survive what is coming. It was Christ that gave a particular servant, which I came to believe, not on Denver's words, for his words could be course, and I could not abide that, but in Christ's words that I recognized just as the two disciples on the Road to Emmaus recognized Christ, only after He revealed Himself to them and said most of the world would not even know what He had just done, just as most of the church and world do not recognize and know that the Lord promises to "set His hand a second time, again".

I did not get that from Denver, I got that from years of studying the scriptures believing that God would change the direction of the church, not start His own unto Him.

Christ has had it with where we are at, and the time came that He, God, now said He will graft in a branch, a shoot (Isaiah) for the last time as the cleanse is about to happen, and those that will stick, and become Sons and Daughters of God, will get through the cleanse, and become His servants and help Him get fruit out of His vineyard that He has wept over, as He describes our church in every point.

Nephi prophesied that we, the Gentiles would almost utterly be destroyed mainly because we have built up our churches to get gain, and we don't even know so, we would like to let a Moses, or a Prophet see and speak to the Lord, and not ourselves. This was prophesied, this has happened.

Nothing, and no one, short of God Himself could ever incite, offend, or make me leave my church. We must have understanding of what time it is and the movement happening before we can discount it, or join it. Christ has spoken, do we know His words. Do we draw near unto Him with our lips, and our hearts are on the Super Bowl, or on our careers or shopping when Christ may be among us, or sent servants to cry repentance and prepare a Zion for a very few that are humble and see there is something obviously wrong.

It is about the Lord's timing, not Denver's. Now may we have a honest scriptural discussion, as we should know them as we know Him.

I look forward to being friends and joining in on whatever I may have to offer, as time is short and if we miss Him, we miss the Mark, and the timing right before He lets us be over run by the King of Assyria, the King of the North, and the army in Revelations. How could we miss that we have lost His Hand. It is prophesied by Jacob and every prophet who saw our day, and gave us the bare minimum because the Gentiles are so prideful, and we don't even have the next scriptures yet because we have fallen asleep. (2 Nephi 27)

Please let us speak about the scriptures and the Word we hold so dear, and not our own words, emotions, and lack of knowledge, for we will perish without even knowing we are under the curse.

Does anyone here know of Joseph Smith's last vision of the state of the church or the barn, or D&C 101 where we forget to build the tower and we are over run. There is no time to banter, only to appreciate each other's gifts and knowledge and missions foreordained for such a time as this.

Thank you.