Long Hair and you be damned!

[isaacs2066]

That sounds good, except that it is not an opinion it is a fact. The church has always been open about why it pushes people to conform to certain standards, both the members and the leaders.

I was hoping you'd see my point and try to sound less asinine, not more.

You shouldn't have long hair and a beard because it looks like you are rebellious, or at least it did in the sixties...

You think maybe there was a reason that happened? Perhaps, maybe, because over 90% of the time it was correct? The US was leading the world into a new era of discovery and advancement. If you wanted to be a part of the growth that changed the world into a better place, you had to grow up and learn to be an adult, not a rebellious kid. How you present yourself matters. It matters today (but with different standards) and it happened even more 50 years ago. Yes, there was a group advocating change, to rebel against "the man" and all kinds of other idiot ideas that came from the drug addled heart and sold-to-satan soul of cretinous and evil people like John Lennon. The world we have today, with prisoners getting sex change operations paid by for the government and condoms given freely to all children at schools got its beginning from the beatniks and those of similar ilk.

That is what they always told me growing up, that it symbolized rebellion and that the president had asked us to cut our hair and shave.

emphasis added

Exactly. You were A-S-K-E-D not required. Not commanded. It was like when President Hinckley told us males shouldn't have earrings. I never wore mine to church, and as I was a BYU student then I didn't wear it at school, but I do occasionally now.

Stereotypes exist for a reason: They're normally more accurate than not. As long as you're not betting the whole farm on them, it makes sense to pay attention to stereotypes. You still have the ability to make up your own mind, but watching for clues is usually smart.

Yes the president asked but everyone else took it on themselves and still do to command it.

[skmo]

Yes the president asked but everyone else took it on themselves and still do to command it.

Yes, but so what? I don't give power to the beliefs of others. Like me or don't, call me or don't. If you do, I'm at least fairly entertaining, moderately useful, and excellent at singing and trivia contests. If you don't, I've already discovered I can live on my own without anyone but my wife and my dogs.

I pointed out that it makes sense to pay attention to these things, not be a slave to them. As for my dress, I wear nice khakis and a colored polo shirt to church. I was told I was not setting a good example by the EQP. In the middle of the meeting he got rebuked for trying (and failing) to exercise unrighteous dominion over me. I'm an excuse to a lot of rules, but I still understand why they exist. For most people it makes sense. For those who stray, there shouldn't be a punishment from the church (and even if there is, they won't excommunicate you for it) but you should be aware of how it may impact other parts of your life.

[isaacs2066]

Yes the president asked but everyone else took it on themselves and still do to command it.

Yes, but so what? I don't give power to the beliefs of others. Like me or don't, call me or don't. If you do, I'm at least fairly entertaining, moderately useful, and excellent at singing and trivia contests. If you don't, I've already discovered I can live on my own without anyone but my wife and my dogs.

I pointed out that it makes sense to pay attention to these things, not be a slave to them. As for my dress, I wear nice khakis and a colored polo shirt to church. I was told I was not setting a good example by the EQP. In the middle of the meeting he got rebuked for trying (and failing) to exercise unrighteous dominion over me. I'm an excuse to a lot of rules, but I still understand why they exist. For most people it makes sense. For those who stray, there shouldn't be a punishment from the church (and even if there is, they won't excommunicate you for it) but you should be aware of how it may impact other parts of your life.

I agree with you that there shouldn't be a punishment for not obeying things like that.

The rub ya see is that there always was and is, at least in central Illinois where I live.

Not exactly a bastion of mormonism, I shudder to think what kind of flack people out in Utah catch for such stupid reasons.

Really the thing is that the members however well meaning need to stop building hedges around the fence that the Lord built; the Lord drew the line where he did for a reason, and when we either members or leaders go building hedges around that fence and act like anyone crossing the hedge is guilty of crossing the fence, it just perverts the ways of the Lord.

This is very easy to see in a lot of the members reactions to stupid little things like dying hair a not normal color or to many holes in your ears, ect.

Often members and a lot of times local leaders react as if you just hopped on the express lane to rejecting Jesus himself.

It is a sad state of stupidity when supposedly educated western people forgo objective reasoning in such a manner.

It is made even worse when Joseph himself went on record in a newspaper and explicitly said that that kind of behavior was "slavish in the extreme"...

p.s. If anybody wants a source for the quote let me know and I will find it for you, it is really interesting.

[zionminded]

The church has evolved into a uniform wearing church. It requires a certain hair style, shirt color and suit and tie.

Our church is lead by ex-WW II mentality, and conformity is ruling the culture now.

BYU is a church school, modesty is the bar they set, whats wrong with that? If you want to attend a church school, measure up.
I have been on the campus many times, how refreshing it is to see students dressed appropriately. Its called respect for oneself and
for the church, a big difference from WW11 mentality.

Its a cultural perception that short hair = modesty. Very judgemental.

[h_p]

There is no excuse for not having one, you can buy nice white shirts at any thrift store. A reactivated member needs to be told nicely, no Pharisiam involved. I don't mind anyone coming to church dressed as they want, especially if they are visiting and just felt the need to attend church. The members would welcome them with open arms, not with judgemental stares. Passing the sacrament is a different thing.

People will impose the standards they want, I suppose, but a white shirt is not a requirement per church standards, at least. I think think of several reasons why I would not have a problem with a person administering the sacrament while not wearing a white shirt. We've had as many in our own ward, in fact.

[kennyhs]

The church has evolved into a uniform wearing church. It requires a certain hair style, shirt color and suit and tie.

Our church is lead by ex-WW II mentality, and conformity is ruling the culture now.

BYU is a church school, modesty is the bar they set, whats wrong with that? If you want to attend a church school, measure up.
I have been on the campus many times, how refreshing it is to see students dressed appropriately. Its called respect for oneself and
for the church, a big difference from WW11 mentality.

Its a cultural perception that short hair = modesty. Very judgemental.

Respect = obedience.

[Rose Garden]

Yes the president asked but everyone else took it on themselves and still do to command it.

Yes, but so what? I don't give power to the beliefs of others. Like me or don't, call me or don't. If you do, I'm at least fairly entertaining, moderately useful, and excellent at singing and trivia contests. If you don't, I've already discovered I can live on my own without anyone but my wife and my dogs.

I pointed out that it makes sense to pay attention to these things, not be a slave to them. As for my dress, I wear nice khakis and a colored polo shirt to church. I was told I was not setting a good example by the EQP. In the middle of the meeting he got rebuked for trying (and failing) to exercise unrighteous dominion over me. I'm an excuse to a lot of rules, but I still understand why they exist. For most people it makes sense. For those who stray, there shouldn't be a punishment from the church (and even if there is, they won't excommunicate you for it) but you should be aware of how it may impact other parts of your life.

I agree with you that there shouldn't be a punishment for not obeying things like that.

The rub ya see is that there always was and is, at least in central Illinois where I live.

Not exactly a bastion of mormonism, I shudder to think what kind of flack people out in Utah catch for such stupid reasons.

Really the thing is that the members however well meaning need to stop building hedges around the fence that the Lord built; the Lord drew the line where he did for a reason, and when we either members or leaders go building hedges around that fence and act like anyone crossing the hedge is guilty of crossing the fence, it just perverts the ways of the Lord.

This is very easy to see in a lot of the members reactions to stupid little things like dying hair a not normal color or to many holes in your ears, ect.

Often members and a lot of times local leaders react as if you just hopped on the express lane to rejecting Jesus himself.

It is a sad state of stupidity when supposedly educated western people forgo objective reasoning in such a manner.

It is made even worse when Joseph himself went on record in a newspaper and explicitly said that that kind of behavior was "slavish in the extreme"...

p.s. If anybody wants a source for the quote let me know and I will find it for you, it is really interesting.

Nice analogy. I'd like the source, if you don't mind.

[zionminded]

The church has evolved into a uniform wearing church. It requires a certain hair style, shirt color and suit and tie.

Our church is lead by ex-WW II mentality, and conformity is ruling the culture now.

BYU is a church school, modesty is the bar they set, whats wrong with that? If you want to attend a church school, measure up.
I have been on the campus many times, how refreshing it is to see students dressed appropriately. Its called respect for oneself and
for the church, a big difference from WW11 mentality.

Its a cultural perception that short hair = modesty. Very judgemental.

Respect = obedience.

subjective "rules" = judgement.

[karend77]

The church has evolved into a uniform wearing church. It requires a certain hair style, shirt color and suit and tie.

Our church is lead by ex-WW II mentality, and conformity is ruling the culture now.

Not true, as our bishop wears baby blue suits, nehru collar jackets and a red jacket the whole month of December because he loves the Christmas season. We love our "non-conforming" bishop and hope he never gets released

[zionminded]

The church has evolved into a uniform wearing church. It requires a certain hair style, shirt color and suit and tie.

Our church is lead by ex-WW II mentality, and conformity is ruling the culture now.

Not true, as our bishop wears baby blue suits, nehru collar jackets and a red jacket the whole month of December because he loves the Christmas season. We love our "non-conforming" bishop and hope he never gets released

That's a wonderful exception. Thank you for sharing.

[skmo]

Both this comment:

I agree with you that there shouldn't be a punishment for not obeying things like that.

The rub ya see is that there always was and is, at least in central Illinois where I live.

Not exactly a bastion of mormonism, I shudder to think what kind of flack people out in Utah catch for such stupid reasons.

Really the thing is that the members however well meaning need to stop building hedges around the fence that the Lord built; the Lord drew the line where he did for a reason, and when we either members or leaders go building hedges around that fence and act like anyone crossing the hedge is guilty of crossing the fence, it just perverts the ways of the Lord.

This is very easy to see in a lot of the members reactions to stupid little things like dying hair a not normal color or to many holes in your ears, ect.

Often members and a lot of times local leaders react as if you just hopped on the express lane to rejecting Jesus himself.

It is a sad state of stupidity when supposedly educated western people forgo objective reasoning in such a manner.

It is made even worse when Joseph himself went on record in a newspaper and explicitly said that that kind of behavior was "slavish in the extreme"...

p.s. If anybody wants a source for the quote let me know and I will find it for you, it is really interesting.

and this one:

Its a cultural perception that short hair = modesty. Very judgemental.

Sound to me like you are only noticing the judgmental attitude coming from an LDS perspective. I do understand that it's taken very firmly and rigidly here, but it's not just Mormons. It's not a symbol of Mormonism, it's a standard of Western Civilization. Go to Hawaii and you'll see lots of colors in the traditional dress, same as with a lot of Polynesian places. It's not Mormonism you're rebelling from, it's our society. That's fine as long as you're willing to accept that there may be consequences from some in that rebellion.

Two people apply for a professional IT job at a large corporation. One has a BS in Computer Science and two years as a missionary. He's clean shaven, short hair, white shirt & tie and dress pants. The other has clean, nice pants, a new T-shirt with a Star Trek design or the joke about 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't. He's got spiked hair, a nose and eyebrow ring, and one of those idiot hoops in his ear you can hang a hand towel in. Like the first guy, he has a BS in CompSci, but also a Masters in programming or IT. Who's going to get the job? Probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 it'll be white shirt dude. You can scream all day about how it's judgmental, but that's the way it is.

That's what civilization is, civilized behavior. For 500 years, that has meant Western Civilization. Those rebelling against it sometimes have a legitimate complaint, but sometimes it's just juvenile rebellion. Some grow out of it and some don't. If you're talented enough and lucky enough, you can carve out a niche for yourself where you can be your own person and be successful. However, if you buck the system and get thrown off, you can either blame the system for your bruise or you can try again.

The brethren know this. They want you to succeed. I know someone's going to complain and say "Yeah, they want you rich so they can take more tithing from you." I'd venture to say they don't care if they're getting $1,000 or $100,000 in tithing from you. As long as you're being responsible enough that you're meeting your needs and making tithing and offerings, you're not taking from the Bishop's Storehouse so it can be given to people who have needs because of infirmity, not irresponsibility.

[skmo]

It may seem like I'm contradicting myself on this topic. I'm not. I said I understand the expectations and that I even generally accept them, not that I follow them. Like I said, if you're talented enough and lucky enough, you can carve out a niche for yourself. I'm in a position that I need to dress respectably, but not business professionally. I'm content to be a teacher. If I wanted to get into administration, I'd have to do the suit and tie thing, but I have no intention. If I was a teacher in a place like Alpine or Holladay I'd probably be expected to at least a shirt and tie, but I am in a nice, rural setting. Heck, when I was in a Bering Sea village in Alaska there were days I'd wear a T-shirt and sweat pants.

I'll never be in leadership in the church, not with my history. I really couldn't care less. I'm a better follower than a leader. However, I'm a follower, not a slave. I'll do my best to climb and improve myself, but I'll do it at my own rate. Lead me responsibly and I'll follow as best I can. Try to force me and both of us will wind up hurt. You, more than me, though.

[zionminded]

Both this comment:

I agree with you that there shouldn't be a punishment for not obeying things like that.

The rub ya see is that there always was and is, at least in central Illinois where I live.

Not exactly a bastion of mormonism, I shudder to think what kind of flack people out in Utah catch for such stupid reasons.

Really the thing is that the members however well meaning need to stop building hedges around the fence that the Lord built; the Lord drew the line where he did for a reason, and when we either members or leaders go building hedges around that fence and act like anyone crossing the hedge is guilty of crossing the fence, it just perverts the ways of the Lord.

This is very easy to see in a lot of the members reactions to stupid little things like dying hair a not normal color or to many holes in your ears, ect.

Often members and a lot of times local leaders react as if you just hopped on the express lane to rejecting Jesus himself.

It is a sad state of stupidity when supposedly educated western people forgo objective reasoning in such a manner.

It is made even worse when Joseph himself went on record in a newspaper and explicitly said that that kind of behavior was "slavish in the extreme"...

p.s. If anybody wants a source for the quote let me know and I will find it for you, it is really interesting.

and this one:

Its a cultural perception that short hair = modesty. Very judgemental.

Sound to me like you are only noticing the judgmental attitude coming from an LDS perspective. I do understand that it's taken very firmly and rigidly here, but it's not just Mormons. It's not a symbol of Mormonism, it's a standard of Western Civilization. Go to Hawaii and you'll see lots of colors in the traditional dress, same as with a lot of Polynesian places. It's not Mormonism you're rebelling from, it's our society. That's fine as long as you're willing to accept that there may be consequences from some in that rebellion.

Two people apply for a professional IT job at a large corporation. One has a BS in Computer Science and two years as a missionary. He's clean shaven, short hair, white shirt & tie and dress pants. The other has clean, nice pants, a new T-shirt with a Star Trek design or the joke about 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't. He's got spiked hair, a nose and eyebrow ring, and one of those idiot hoops in his ear you can hang a hand towel in. Like the first guy, he has a BS in CompSci, but also a Masters in programming or IT. Who's going to get the job? Probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 it'll be white shirt dude. You can scream all day about how it's judgmental, but that's the way it is.

That's what civilization is, civilized behavior. For 500 years, that has meant Western Civilization. Those rebelling against it sometimes have a legitimate complaint, but sometimes it's just juvenile rebellion. Some grow out of it and some don't. If you're talented enough and lucky enough, you can carve out a niche for yourself where you can be your own person and be successful. However, if you buck the system and get thrown off, you can either blame the system for your bruise or you can try again.

The brethren know this. They want you to succeed. I know someone's going to complain and say "Yeah, they want you rich so they can take more tithing from you." I'd venture to say they don't care if they're getting $1,000 or $100,000 in tithing from you. As long as you're being responsible enough that you're meeting your needs and making tithing and offerings, you're not taking from the Bishop's Storehouse so it can be given to people who have needs because of infirmity, not irresponsibility.

There are rules if you want to belong to the "tribe". Remember I'm a psychologist, I get this stuff. I also travel a great deal internationally, so I see it all. My hair is cut short, I shave (most of the time), and I wear a white shirt to church (most of the time). My comments are simply a reflection of the world we live in, where people want to belong, because society makes rules about what is culturally acceptable and what isn't. Remember too, that there are those who try to rebel, and look different, just to make a statement. The proper way is to "be yourself", and don't do things to comply or to rebel. That's where I stand.

[skmo]

There are rules if you want to belong to the "tribe".

Even if you don't want to BE part of the tribe, sometimes you want to do business with the tribe, so you wear the headband they gave you while you sit around the fire. In the Gulf War, the Saudis were PISSED that U.S. forces included women, but for the most part they bent their cultural rules because they wanted us there to fight. From what I've heard, if LDS people live in Saudi Arabia, they are only allowed to worship in their homes, and they're not allowed to have any Saudi people in their homes while they do.

The proper way is to "be yourself", and don't do things to comply or to rebel. That's where I stand.

And like I said, that's fine as long as you're willing to accept that there may be consequences from some in that rebellion. Compliance and rebellion both have consequences that are good and bad. With each there is a cost to most individuals, but there are rewards from both, too. As long as you're making an informed decision, the rest is up to the individual to decide.

[isaacs2066]

Both this comment:

I agree with you that there shouldn't be a punishment for not obeying things like that.

The rub ya see is that there always was and is, at least in central Illinois where I live.

Not exactly a bastion of mormonism, I shudder to think what kind of flack people out in Utah catch for such stupid reasons.

Really the thing is that the members however well meaning need to stop building hedges around the fence that the Lord built; the Lord drew the line where he did for a reason, and when we either members or leaders go building hedges around that fence and act like anyone crossing the hedge is guilty of crossing the fence, it just perverts the ways of the Lord.

This is very easy to see in a lot of the members reactions to stupid little things like dying hair a not normal color or to many holes in your ears, ect.

Often members and a lot of times local leaders react as if you just hopped on the express lane to rejecting Jesus himself.

It is a sad state of stupidity when supposedly educated western people forgo objective reasoning in such a manner.

It is made even worse when Joseph himself went on record in a newspaper and explicitly said that that kind of behavior was "slavish in the extreme"...

p.s. If anybody wants a source for the quote let me know and I will find it for you, it is really interesting.

and this one:

Its a cultural perception that short hair = modesty. Very judgemental.

Sound to me like you are only noticing the judgmental attitude coming from an LDS perspective. I do understand that it's taken very firmly and rigidly here, but it's not just Mormons. It's not a symbol of Mormonism, it's a standard of Western Civilization. Go to Hawaii and you'll see lots of colors in the traditional dress, same as with a lot of Polynesian places. It's not Mormonism you're rebelling from, it's our society. That's fine as long as you're willing to accept that there may be consequences from some in that rebellion.

Two people apply for a professional IT job at a large corporation. One has a BS in Computer Science and two years as a missionary. He's clean shaven, short hair, white shirt & tie and dress pants. The other has clean, nice pants, a new T-shirt with a Star Trek design or the joke about 10 types of people: those who understand binary and those who don't. He's got spiked hair, a nose and eyebrow ring, and one of those idiot hoops in his ear you can hang a hand towel in. Like the first guy, he has a BS in CompSci, but also a Masters in programming or IT. Who's going to get the job? Probably 8 or 9 times out of 10 it'll be white shirt dude. You can scream all day about how it's judgmental, but that's the way it is.

That's what civilization is, civilized behavior. For 500 years, that has meant Western Civilization. Those rebelling against it sometimes have a legitimate complaint, but sometimes it's just juvenile rebellion. Some grow out of it and some don't. If you're talented enough and lucky enough, you can carve out a niche for yourself where you can be your own person and be successful. However, if you buck the system and get thrown off, you can either blame the system for your bruise or you can try again.

The brethren know this. They want you to succeed. I know someone's going to complain and say "Yeah, they want you rich so they can take more tithing from you." I'd venture to say they don't care if they're getting $1,000 or $100,000 in tithing from you. As long as you're being responsible enough that you're meeting your needs and making tithing and offerings, you're not taking from the Bishop's Storehouse so it can be given to people who have needs because of infirmity, not irresponsibility.

Mabye that is the way it was ten years ago, but a lot has changed, you should see who Google and Apple, and the others recruit. Quite a few are those stupid hipsters, secondly they often go out of their way to recruit these people, they do not wait around for them to apply.

[Rachael]

As long as a person is well groomed/brushed, it doesn't matter what their hairstyle is or how long it is. The church and its members really seem to be obsessed with super short hair for men as a sign that they are properly groomed. This stems from the missionary haircut style: https://missionary.lds.org/clothing/eld ... r?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I think the idea of "requiring" short hair for men in the church comes from the military having required crew-cuts and since many of the church leaders were in the military that ideal has transferred over unfortunately.

The whole, you can't have a beard or have longer hair and be a righteous priesthood holder REALLY needs to leave the church's ethos.

It really stems from the fact that the church as an organization forces the styles and opinions and practices and customs of mammon onto its members to make itself look better.

The picture and remarks are offensive.

Why? The painting of Jesus was supposedly done by an artist that kept asking a GA if that was what JC looked like. Like the old game of looking for something as a kid playing the hot-cold game. If you got close, you were "warm." If real, real close, you were red hot. I was always told this portrait was red hot. But I've been told a lot stuff over the years. Can't remember the story exactly, but if unfounded it just another faith promoting story that used to be perpetuated.

[Rachael]

I can see the offense... The clean shaven Jesus looks like the guy off the "Supernatural" show (Dean). Not faith promoting...

[isaacs2066]

I can see the offense... The clean shaven Jesus looks like the guy off the "Supernatural" show (Dean). Not faith promoting...

One has to wonder, why shouldn't those who preach of, and teach of, and worship the Christ look like he does?

After all we will recognize him when he comes because we will be (look?) like him.

I think that many of us might call him a dirty hobo and tell him to shove off...

[Sirocco]

I can see the offense... The clean shaven Jesus looks like the guy off the "Supernatural" show (Dean). Not faith promoting...

It looks like my dad...

and the long haired version looks like me...
hmm