Born again? Prove it!

[2ndRateMind]

There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3 1-15 KJV

Being 'born again' is often spoken about, and claimed, as if it were a commonplace experience and a status that every Christian knows, and being a believing Christian is enough to qualify. I wonder what your testimonies are?

In my experience, there are two broad and distinct routes:

1. One has always believed, and gradually grows in the spirit, as one matures. For these fortunates, faith, hope and charity are integral to their psychologies, and always have been, and they cannot conceive of themselves without them.

2. One comes to belief suddenly, after doubts, questioning, and uncertainties. For such as these, the invasion of the heart by the love of the Holy Spirit may be intense, even traumatic. The injustices of the world, once known solely insofar as they affected oneself, are compounded, because one now knows they affect many, and disadvantage many. The empathy and sympathy bestowed by the Spirit is not bounded, and one feels full force the impoverishment of the world. It is an abrupt awakening, and harrowing. But it is not all bad news; one immediately perceives the relevance and virtue of those who fight daily for human rights, the end of corruption, a solution to global absolute poverty, and the resolution of all armed conflict.

So my theme for this thread is this; can one be born again and not know this ravishment of the heart, and the accompanying emotional vulnerability that leaves one tearful whenever one hears of vital needs unmet, or the merit and quality of soul that leads good people into striving to meet those needs?

Best wishes, 2RM.

[Zathura]

Some believe that they were born again once they were baptized in the water, even if they didn't have an intense spiritual experience.

Some believe that they are born again over time, slowly being sanctified.

Some believe that they were born again by a warm feeling.

While innocent, these are not true beliefs.

When one has faith in Jesus and becomes broken hearted, the day will come that he will cry into God in mighty prayer and God will visit him with fire and the Holy Ghost. The person will feel fire from head to toe, the person will feel love that cannot be described. It will feel like you are being embraced by some invisible loving being. You will feel like your chest will burst, and will desire to praise God and tell God how glorious and perfect he is. The person can also receive a knowledge that he has received a remission of sins , and may then have the constant presence of the Spirit.
When a man or woman has this experience, he or she had been born again, spiritually begotten of God, reconciled with God etc.

Perhaps he will speak in tongues, perhaps fire will be visible in the air. Perhaps Angels will minister. Any number of the gifts of the Spirit may accompany this experience.

Yes conversion is a process, but this process is not complete with an intense spiritual experience, which results in a rebirth.

I hope my answer is relevant to your OP

[Sarah]

David O. McKay’s Vision of the “City Eternal”

As found in Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: David O. McKay, taken from Cherished Experiences from the Writings of President David O. McKay, pages 59–60.

Toward evening, the reflection of the afterglow of a beautiful sunset was most splendid!

…Pondering still upon this beautiful scene, I lay in my [bed] at ten o’clock that night. …I then fell asleep, and beheld in vision something infinitely sublime. In the distance I beheld a beautiful white city. Though it was far away, yet I seemed to realize that trees with luscious fruit, shrubbery with gorgeously tinted leaves, and flowers in perfect bloom abounded everywhere. The clear sky above seemed to reflect these beautiful shades of color. I then saw a great concourse of people approaching the city. Each one wore a white flowing robe and a white headdress. Instantly my attention seemed centered upon their leader, and though I could see only the profile of his features and his body, I recognized him at once as my Savior! The tint and radiance of his countenance were glorious to behold. There was a peace about him which seemed sublime – it was divine!

The city, I understood, was his. It was the City Eternal; and the people following him were to abide there in peace and eternal happiness.

But who were they?

As if the savior read my thoughts, he answered by pointing to a semicircle that then appeared oboe them, and on which were written in gold the words:

These Are They Who Have Overcome the World –
Who Have Truly Been Born Again!

[2ndRateMind]

I hope my answer is relevant to your OP

All answers are relevant, and considered, and valued.

Cheers, 2RM.

[Zathura]

Moses 6
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

Helaman 5:

44 And Nephi and Lehi were in the midst of them; yea, they were encircled about; yea, they were as if in the midst of a flaming fire, yet it did harm them not, neither did it take hold upon the walls of the prison; and they were filled with that joy which is unspeakable and full of glory.

45 And behold, the Holy Spirit of God did come down from heaven, and did enter into their hearts, and they were filled as if with fire, and they could speak forth marvelous words.

3 Nephi 19

13 And it came to pass when they were all baptized and had come up out of the water, the Holy Ghost did fall upon them, and they were filled with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

14 And behold, they were encircled about as if it were by fire; and it came down from heaven, and the multitude did witness it, and did bear record; and angels did come down out of heaven and did minister unto them.

Acts 2

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

[Zathura]

Elder David Bednar
"Purifying and sealing by the Holy Spirit of Promise constitute the culminating steps in the process of being born again."

"Through faith in Christ, we can be spiritually prepared and cleansed from sin, immersed in and saturated with His gospel, and purified and sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise—even born again. "

[Sarah]

I would hesitate in suggesting we as mortals can judge whether someone has been born again or not - TRULY born again. Have you or I overcome the world? Only God knows that. The only things we DO know is that you cannot truly be born again without the ordinances. That does not mean that the ordinances and covenants are the ticket either. Only God can judge the heart. Only the Holy Ghost can justify and sanctify and determine if you are truly living your covenants.

Is my 9 year old not born again just because she has not had a marvelous spiritual experience? The experience is only one sign. She has had other experiences with the Holy Ghost. The greater sign is the effects the spirit has on you and in how you live your life. If you have truly been born again you will shun all evil and seek to do the Lord's will in everything. None of us are perfect, and I think the point in the OP about feeling compassion towards all the poor and oppressed again is ONE sign of the spirit working upon you. We are all in the process of being born again once we decide to take the spirit as our guide.

[Zathura]

I would hesitate in suggesting we as mortals can judge whether someone has been born again or not - TRULY born again. Have you or I overcome the world? Only God knows that. The only things we DO know is that you cannot truly be born again without the ordinances. That does not mean that the ordinances and covenants are the ticket either. Only God can judge the heart. Only the Holy Ghost can justify and sanctify and determine if you are truly living your covenants.

Is my 9 year old not born again just because she has not had a marvelous spiritual experience? The experience is only one sign. She has had other experiences with the Holy Ghost. The greater sign is the effects the spirit has on you and in how you live your life. If you have truly been born again you will shun all evil and seek to do the Lord's will in everything. None of us are perfect, and I think the point in the OP about feeling compassion towards all the poor and oppressed again is ONE sign of the spirit working upon you. We are all in the process of being born again once we decide to take the spirit as our guide.

Each individual can know that he has been born of God.
Clearly Alma knew it when he declared that he was born of God.
I know the moment I was, and I testify that there is a moment that each individual can be born of God.

[2ndRateMind]

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 3:8 KJV

I have to say, out of the passage quoted, I particularly identify with this verse. I tend to do as I please and what seems to me to be good, irrespective of any personal or corporate advantage or disadvantage. That may be why I have no job at present, or any money. But then, I have always considered myself a goat, rather than a sheep! And, I would not cite this as evidence that I am 'born again'

Cheers, 2RM

[Sarah]

I would hesitate in suggesting we as mortals can judge whether someone has been born again or not - TRULY born again. Have you or I overcome the world? Only God knows that. The only things we DO know is that you cannot truly be born again without the ordinances. That does not mean that the ordinances and covenants are the ticket either. Only God can judge the heart. Only the Holy Ghost can justify and sanctify and determine if you are truly living your covenants.

Is my 9 year old not born again just because she has not had a marvelous spiritual experience? The experience is only one sign. She has had other experiences with the Holy Ghost. The greater sign is the effects the spirit has on you and in how you live your life. If you have truly been born again you will shun all evil and seek to do the Lord's will in everything. None of us are perfect, and I think the point in the OP about feeling compassion towards all the poor and oppressed again is ONE sign of the spirit working upon you. We are all in the process of being born again once we decide to take the spirit as our guide.

Each individual can know that he has been born of God.
Clearly Alma knew it when he declared that he was born of God.
I know the moment I was, and I testify that there is a moment that each individual can be born of God.

I believe we each can know by the Holy Ghost that Jesus has saved and redeemed us and we are forgiven when we repent. Alma had this experience and now had this knowledge and change of heart. That is also how many begin the process of being born again. They are born again once, but they must continue to walk in the straight and narrow path having the Holy Ghost as their constant companion.

[Kitkat]

Perhaps the danger of being taught you were automatically born again when you were baptized is you will never seek for it knowingly.

My baptism at the age of 8 was mostly my celebrating my new dress and I was really sad that I was no longer perfect by default. I assumed I had been born again because that is what I was taught, but now I feel this happened years later.

Just food for thought to ask God if you have been born again. Just like we pray to know if other things are true, it can be a faith building experience to ask God to show you if/when you were born again.

[marc]

Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things

[gclayjr]

2ndRateMind,

You are also bumping into the edge of a significant difference between LDS belief and mainstream Protestantism.

Martin Luther was disgusted by the Catholic Church's sales of indulgences to help save deceased relatives, and their insistence upon teaching creeds instead of directly out of the Bible. He then made a cornerstone of his protest around Ephesians 2 where it says

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Coupling that with the idea that only by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Master, and the need to be Born again. Many protestants believe that being Born again simply means being accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior and that is both necessary and sufficient for salvations/

Our 4rth Article of faith says:

We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

That means that while we agree with our protestant brethren that being "Born again" is necessary, we disagree with them that it is sufficient.

We believe that we must have faith, be baptized receive the gift of the Holy spirit conferred upon us, and then endure to the end repenting often of our sins when they are recognized.

Regards,

George Clay

[gclayjr]

2ndRateMind

I have to say, out of the passage quoted, I particularly identify with this verse. I tend to do as I please and what seems to me to be good, irrespective of any personal or corporate advantage or disadvantage. That may be why I have no job at present, or any money. But then, I have always considered myself a goat, rather than a sheep! And, I would not cite this as evidence that I am 'born again

I would say that this isn't evidence for or against you being born again. The real question is do you believe in Jesus Christ and Have you accepted him as your Lord and Savior? (and from a Latter Day Saint perspective have you been baptized and received the gift of the holy spirit?)

There is more of interest here. Doing what you please is not Christlike, nor what he taught. And what seems good to you may or may not actually BE good. It is a worldly and Satanic idea that we are gods unto ourselves and can determine for ourselves what is good. That is the reason that GOd gave us commandments, sent us prophets, and Christ himself to teach us.

One of the great labors that true believers labor under is to determine HIS will rather than our own will. Christ himself didn't want to die on the cross, but he submitted to the will of the father, because that was the right thing. And because of that we are not all damned to hell!

Regards,

George CLay

[2ndRateMind]

You are also bumping into the edge of a significant difference between LDS belief and mainstream Protestantism...

Hi George,

I think that's a solid response.

I wonder, though, if being 'born again' may involve a realistic appraisal of one's nature, the good and the bad, and repentance for the bad, automatically?

Certainly, when the Holy Spirit shook me, it shook me to the very core of my being, and repentance was a significant part of my recovery from the experience.

Cheers, 2RM.

[gclayjr]

2ndRateMind,

A single word subtlety here is very significant

repentance was a significant part of my recovery

WAS.....

Repentance isn't an event. It is a life long process. Again a key concept is that one must endure to the end. Judas had a good enough testimony of Jesus to become one of his selected apostles, but somewhere along the way he let worldly things take priority, and he lost everything while acting in a way that might have destroyed everything, if man and Satan could have prevailed against God.

Regards,

George Clay

[2ndRateMind]

There is more of interest here. Doing what you please is not Christlike, nor what he taught. And what seems good to you may or may not actually BE good. It is a worldly and Satanic idea that we are gods unto ourselves and can determine for ourselves what is good. That is the reason that GOd gave us commandments, sent us prophets, and Christ himself to teach us.

Indeed there is. If time permits tomorrow, I may expand on this. Meanwhile, I just want to say I have a lot of sympathy for the venerable and respectable line of thought that runs: 'Love God, and do what you will'. The obvious justification being that if one does love God, and is aligned with God's goodness, then what one wills will inevitably be good.

Cheers, 2RM.

[gclayjr]

2ndRateMind,

If you read scripture you will learn that Loving God is not enough to know his will. Whether it be Moses climbing Mt. Sinai, or Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, The will of God was only found after much prayer and searching!

Regards,

George Clay

[kennyhs]

And it came to pass they were baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost and a fire?

This explains baptism by fire, Can someone explain the fire? What is the feeling of this kind of fire? I accept Christ as my Savior, am I born again?

[rewcox]

I didn't know about being born again. Then I moved to Texas. I was invited to eat some Bluebell Ice Cream.

Now I know I've been born again!

[gclayjr]

newcox,

I went to Utah State, try some Aggie ice cream

Regards
George Clay

[rewcox]

newcox,

I went to Utah State, try some Aggie ice cream

Regards
George Clay

That is good!

[freedomforall]

Here are some hints that help us to determine if we're born again? Read carefully and see what the fine points revealed here are. By making a check list of these requirements, one can prove for themselves if they spiritually born again. However, the proof is between each of us and the Savior. It is no one else's business.

Alma 5:14-19,27-33,49,55,56
14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?
15 Do ye exercise faith in the redemption of him who created you? Do you look forward with an eye of faith, and view this mortal body raised in immortality, and this corruption braised in incorruption, to stand before God to be judged according to the deeds which have been done in the mortal body?
16 I say unto you, can you imagine to yourselves that ye hear the voice of the Lord, saying unto you, in that day: Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness upon the face of the earth?
17 Or do ye imagine to yourselves that ye can lie unto the Lord in that day, and say—Lord, our works have been righteous works upon the face of the earth—and that he will save you?
18 Or otherwise, can ye imagine yourselves brought before the tribunal of God with your souls filled with guilt and remorse, having a remembrance of all your guilt, yea, a perfect remembrance of all your wickedness, yea, a remembrance that ye have set at defiance the commandments of God?
19 I say unto you, can ye look up to God at that day with a pure heart and clean hands? I say unto you, can you look up, having the image of God engraven upon your countenances?
27 Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? That your garments have been cleansed and made white through the blood of Christ, who will come to redeem his people from their sins?
28 Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.
29 Behold, I say, is there one among you who is not stripped of envy? I say unto you that such an one is not prepared; and I would that he should prepare quickly, for the hour is close at hand, and he knoweth not when the time shall come; for such an one is not found guiltless.
30 And again I say unto you, is there one among you that doth make a mock of his brother, or that heapeth upon him persecutions?
31 Wo unto such an one, for he is not prepared, and the time is at hand that he must repent or he cannot be saved!
32 Yea, even wo unto all ye workers of iniquity; repent, repent, for the Lord God hath spoken it!
33 Behold, he sendeth an invitation unto all men, for the arms of mercy are extended towards them, and he saith: Repent, and I will receive you.
49 And now I say unto you that this is the order after which I am called, yea, to preach unto my beloved brethren, yea, and every one that dwelleth in the land; yea, to preach unto all, both old and young, both bond and free; yea, I say unto you the aged, and also the middle aged, and the rising generation; yea, to cry unto them that they must repent and be born again.
55 Yea, and will you persist in turning your backs upon the poor, and the needy, and in withholding your substance from them?
56 And finally, all ye that will persist in your wickedness, I say unto you that these are they who shall be hewn down and cast into the fire except they speedily repent.
All of Alma 5 is very good concerning being born again.

Mosiah 27:25 (24–27)
24 For, said he, I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit.
25 And the Lord said unto me: Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters;
26 And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.
27 I say unto you, unless this be the case, they must be cast off; and this I know, because I was like to be cast off.

Alma 22:15
15 And it came to pass that after Aaron had expounded these things unto him, the king said: What shall I do that I may have this eternal life of which thou hast spoken? Yea, what shall I do that I may be born of God, having this wicked spirit rooted out of my breast, and receive his Spirit, that I may be filled with joy, that I may not be cast off at the last day? Behold, said he, I will give up all that I possess, yea, I will forsake my kingdom, that I may receive this great joy.

Rom. 6:3 (3–11)
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord

Romans 8:11 (11–17)
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Mosiah 5:2
2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually.

Moses 6:65
65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

1 Jn. 3:2 (1–3)
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Or simply skip over these things. Whose to know, Right?

[freedomforall]

I didn't know about being born again. Then I moved to Texas. I was invited to eat some Bluebell Ice Cream.

Now I know I've been born again!

I love Blue Bell ice cream. Had lots of it while working in the Houston area. Outback serves it in vanilla flavor as one of their offered desserts.

[ilovetherain]

When you have received your Baptism by Fire you know it without a doubt. There is absolutely no question nor doubt in your mind that you have been purified and cleansed, your sins have been forgiven, and you have received your calling & election as well.