One item that bothers me a little and a stumbling block for me in regards to the LDS religion currently, Pilots.

[capctr]

Isint every male dominated profession like this? Anymore, isint the world like this? And yes, the military is very much like this and because of the nature of commitments, the lower ranks have NO choice sometimes to be around filth. Vulgar comments and disrespectful talk is everywhere even on your child's play ground.

On a military base, I found a note on the ground in the housing playground that looked like an 8 year old wrote it asking a girl to have sex with him. Then I found a condom wrapper in the tunnel slide. So, ya...it's a very perverse culture all the way down to the children.

Seriously it feels like, being a woman, I can not do anything without creeps staring or commenting in an uncomfortable manner.

There are good people everywhere and I hope in every profession but it's becoming more casual at workplaces with regards to acting "unprofessional". And honestly women entering the workplace in every profession has not made anything better because alot of them have to play the games and join in or instigate things themselves.

The world is on edge....we have gone too far to return. A reset will be needed to fix this delusional mindset the world has. It's truly sad that people cannot have respect for even the most special and meaningfull things in life.

As I am getting older, 30s, I am noticing more and more men who have no human respect for women. Don't know what caused that but no doubt it is a reason so many men see no problem breaking their marriage vows. Lots of men view women as servants - unfortunately even in the church.

I can't argue with that, in spite of the many exceptions I have seen-it still seems to be the norm.
But let's turn it around, and look at it from the other side.
Women today are alternately trained to be "the victims" AND the aggressors. Men are either viewed in the yellow-hued light of Homer Simpson(a gluttonous, bumbling fool who frequently depends on his wife to bail him out of his screw ups), or the jaded light of being unfaithful perverts. In fact, it seems that in today's world, men are as pigeon-holed into the roles assigned to them as women(more so, actually), and the best they can hope for(as far as the world is concerned)is to obtain the status of being a spineless, hyper-emotional, feminist supporting, way-too-in-touch with their feelings metro-sexual.
To be clear-I am a stay-at-home dad, and my wife runs the ER, surrounded by doctors. My father was a surgeon/Doctor, so I know for a fact that they are as prone, if not more so, to the same issues a pilots.
Since my wife is constantly surrounded by doctors, and is, in fact, very attractive-you might wonder if I am concerned? Not at all. You see, not only is she committed to me-but even more so to our children and her covenants(she gave up much to join the church at 16).
Besides, the doctors respect and(most importantly) FEAR her(I have lost count of how many doctor's careers she has saved by not allowing them to proceed when she could tell they misunderstood the situation).
I kid you not-the doctors have even given my wife the nickname Camanda(her name is Amanda).
Sorry-I'm rambling. I get a little irate when I hear what women are frequently subjected to, without consideration of the fact that men are subjected to just as much, if not more.

[bornfree]

Isint every male dominated profession like this? Anymore, isint the world like this? And yes, the military is very much like this and because of the nature of commitments, the lower ranks have NO choice sometimes to be around filth. Vulgar comments and disrespectful talk is everywhere even on your child's play ground.

On a military base, I found a note on the ground in the housing playground that looked like an 8 year old wrote it asking a girl to have sex with him. Then I found a condom wrapper in the tunnel slide. So, ya...it's a very perverse culture all the way down to the children.

Seriously it feels like, being a woman, I can not do anything without creeps staring or commenting in an uncomfortable manner.

There are good people everywhere and I hope in every profession but it's becoming more casual at workplaces with regards to acting "unprofessional". And honestly women entering the workplace in every profession has not made anything better because alot of them have to play the games and join in or instigate things themselves.

The world is on edge....we have gone too far to return. A reset will be needed to fix this delusional mindset the world has. It's truly sad that people cannot have respect for even the most special and meaningfull things in life.

As I am getting older, 30s, I am noticing more and more men who have no human respect for women. Don't know what caused that but no doubt it is a reason so many men see no problem breaking their marriage vows. Lots of men view women as servants - unfortunately even in the church.

I can't argue with that, in spite of the many exceptions I have seen-it still seems to be the norm.
But let's turn it around, and look at it from the other side.
Women today are alternately trained to be "the victims" AND the aggressors. Men are either viewed in the yellow-hued light of Homer Simpson(a gluttonous, bumbling fool who frequently depends on his wife to bail him out of his screw ups), or the jaded light of being unfaithful perverts. In fact, it seems that in today's world, men are as pigeon-holed into the roles assigned to them as women(more so, actually), and the best they can hope for(as far as the world is concerned)is to obtain the status of being a spineless, hyper-emotional, feminist supporting, way-too-in-touch with their feelings metro-sexual.
To be clear-I am a stay-at-home dad, and my wife runs the ER, surrounded by doctors. My father was a surgeon/Doctor, so I know for a fact that they are as prone, if not more so, to the same issues a pilots.
Since my wife is constantly surrounded by doctors, and is, in fact, very attractive-you might wonder if I am concerned? Not at all. You see, not only is she committed to me-but even more so to our children and her covenants(she gave up much to join the church at 16).
Besides, the doctors respect and(most importantly) FEAR her(I have lost count of how many doctor's careers she has saved by not allowing them to proceed when she could tell they misunderstood the situation).
I kid you not-the doctors have even given my wife the nickname Camanda(her name is Amanda).
Sorry-I'm rambling. I get a little irate when I hear what women are frequently subjected to, without consideration of the fact that men are subjected to just as much, if not more.

I agree things concerning women being treated with respect have gotten better, but not much. I'm not trying to be a feminist, I love my role in life, but IMO we have to be assertive, stand our ground and believe in ourselves. As far as men becoming spineless, hyper-emotional beings because of being pigeon-holed into the roles assigned to them, I disagree. The best men I know have assertive wives. :p

[marc]

Hello, Dash. I enjoy your posts and I have observed that you possess an objective mind and a soft heart. You seem to possess a great deal of knowledge and understanding of more than the basics of LDS doctrine. You are more read than most LDS that I know. A stumbling block is an obstacle which prevents someone's progress along his path. My question to you is how is this subject a stumbling block for you? Have you or are you considering being baptized a member of the LDS church and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost? I would be happy to help you resolve this if I am able.

[cynikal]

i am not going to read all this, but have read enough. My Brother in Law was in the Blue Angels (whoooo), and will tell you they have strict rule within their own group about womanizing and cheating. I know of an incident of a pilot cheating on his wife was discharged - just for that - it did not effect his performance, but the reason was it effected the trust within the team.

I do have a problem with many of these "Utah" Mormons yapping about the "vile" talk in the Army. Guess what? You just joined an organization with people from all different walks of life with all kinds of questionable motives designed to kill people in the fastest imaginable way, and you want to complain about the language use? HAHAHAHA cry to your DI, man up and join the Marines!

and to the OP ... it is not the job descriptions you have issues with it might be the type of people you hang with.

[Dash jones]

Hello, Dash. I enjoy your posts and I have observed that you possess an objective mind and a soft heart. You seem to possess a great deal of knowledge and understanding of more than the basics of LDS doctrine. You are more read than most LDS that I know. A stumbling block is an obstacle which prevents someone's progress along his path. My question to you is how is this subject a stumbling block for you? Have you or are you considering being baptized a member of the LDS church and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost? I would be happy to help you resolve this if I am able.

As I said previously, Knowing the culture of pilots, and knowing the background of such, seeing General Authorities who are pilots makes it very hard to think that someone hasnt' been tainted by it.

I've seen countless pilots claim innocence when in reality, they are deeply involved with things which are absolutely terrible. The LDS and Catholic members that are into it might not realize it, but when they deny pornography problems or instead of addressing the issue try to redirect it towards how hard it is to be a pilot and how exacting...I see it as only furthering their own involvement and normally leads to a deepening difficulties with it. It's unfortunately something that I have seen specifically with religions people who may be considered religious by everyone else, they tend to have problems with pornography (as I said, this is the moral ones) and their language in the cockpit (what it centers around, the content), as I said, would make most embarrassed to be there.

I have never seen a cockpit (been in over 200) for an extended flight (longer than 4-5 hours) which I was in where inappropriate topics were not mentioned or brought up in an attempt to discuss it, that the pilot afterwards didn't have inappropriate material either that they carried in the travel bags, or utilized on their computer afterwards, or did FAR worse when we landed outside of their home city. That tends to tarnish one's opinion of the community and culture. This includes Mormons in that. Many of those also drank alcohol (which WAS a surprise to me in regards to LDS pilots...I had assumed that none of them would do this) upon landing (not necessarily heavily, but at least one beer or other drink). I've seen countless wives who HAVE discovered their husbands infidelities (and this was not actually due to me, though, because I was not contracted into one specific airline or route I have been privy to many different airline pilots and pilots themselves, I was not one to report them to their wives) and if you talk to them, I imagine they would have FAR worse to say (probably where the myth where all pilots cheat come from). They don't, but immoral, yep...Knowing the cockpit conversations of many, a pilot would probably be the LAST one I'd want looking at my GF or significant other. Could you trust your life to them in a flight, absolutely. But that's different than what the problems I've seen in regards to chastity.

So, with that background there, it IS possible for a moral pilot. However, most I've met are covering it up when they come home, and the odds are that there are things in ones background that would not be things they'd want to get out at home or in public. Furthermore, as I know that the community specifically tries to hide these actions from those at home and who they are closest too, what are the chances a background check or any other thing that the church is having would turn up what many of these are hiding unless it finally actually became public?

It's like asking about drinking. About 86% of americans say they have drank alcohol, 70% say in the past year. What are the chances that a Mormon has been drinking? Unfortunately, the rates Mormons participate in the world correlate closer to the world than many would like to hear. So, no, not all Mormons drink by far, and I'd say the active ones are less likely to drink than others. However, we also know that even in the overwhelmingly Mormon parts of Utah, there are still significant enough alcohol sales to include them in the stores there. There are pretty good chances that if I chose 10 Mormons at random I could probably find at least one that drank.

With my views of the Pilot community and culture, and the high percentages I've seen, without that spiritual prompting that Mormons supposedly have, make me wonder what are the chances of the LDS church getting lucky every single time in regards to pilots and their leaders?

Someone brought up the Catholics. We supposedly believe selection is also divine in church leadership. There have been multiple problems there. Why, knowing what I know, would I think the Mormons are immune to this?

So, yes, it is a stumbling block in regards to becoming a member if I ever considered it. If I were to change to being an LDS, I would have to see that there is a significant difference between Catholic leadership and LDS leadership and members in regards to divine selection and choice.

I try to respect all religions (believe it or not), and I do try to defend most religions that are not my own from those who try to tear it down. That does not mean I don't have significant problems in regards to them. This is why I don't join them (and this isn't just LDS, it's any religion outside my own typically).

I mentioned the spirit because I've come to realize during this thread that this item that may be troublesome to me would be a distinctly NON-Member difficulty most likely.

I don't know if there is anything specifically that you could do that Missionaries have not done already.

The ONLY think I could stress, is if people have problems with this is that the entire things about being examples to others is absolutely true. IF I had met Mormons that were significantly different than the other pilots in the culture, that were uncontestably Moral, and I saw lived by the standards that I have seen, it WOULD be a HUGE impression upon me. In regards to piloting, I haven't seen a HUGE difference between them and others, but I would say it probably could leave a DEEP impression on me if I saw it.

So, I'd say the best thing that Mormons could do would to actually LIVE their religion. Seriously. That would be the one thing that could separate them out from everyone else (of course that would apply to most Christian religions). I can't say one person will make a difference by themselves (but they could, who knows, I'm NOT Baptist, but the Baptist I saw that was moral and a Pilot made a HUGE impression on me in that regards), but if Utah was a place where alcohol wasn't sold in stores because they didn't have the sales, where the people appeared to not be in the thrall of consumerism and commercialism, and there were no poor among them (people think it's just a saying, but seriously...this would be impressive), at least in the areas which are excessively high in a LDS percentage...that could be something that would make me take it far more seriously in regards to an actual religion change.

I'm currently on vacation in the US, and in the LDS corridor. If I could see significant differences than say in the Southern Baptist Corridor and Bible Belt, or different than Ireland in the deeply religious areas, than YES, that probably would make a huge hit on me to take into consideration. There Are differences between those places and areas like California and the North East (Language usage for starters), but something would need to set the LDS members far apart from those of other religions. Ironically, it probably would deal with them living their religion as a whole that would do that, but I have yet to see it (in regards to any religion, anywhere, for that matter).

The most religious areas I've been too actually are outside the US and in the Middle East (Saudi for example). I can leave my wallet on a bench there and have it returned to me within 24 hours if they know where I'm at. That doesn't even happen in Provo Utah. I don't agree with Islam (as I'm a Christian), but I will say if we are talking about a people who have impressed me in regards to their religion, I would say those in the Middle East have been the most impressive (of course, their laws also punish them very harshly for disobedience, so there is that). It has added the idea that if I were ever to look at another religion seriously, seeing that they also claim authority from on High, they could be one that I would consider, however.

[bornfree]

Money is never returned in Provo Utah and pilots are all immoral. These are outrageous statements. We are being played. I'm cancelling my divorce because my husband sat in the cockpit once and these posts convinced me he must have been a bad boy. Sure glad I figured this out. ;)

[bornfree]

My husband ( now that I let him back home.) Just reminded me of the time we took our son to the mtc in Provo, and a young man returned money that had been dropped when husband pulled some out of his money clip. Bless his heart if he's the only honest person in Provo.

[Dash jones]

Money is never returned in Provo Utah and pilots are all immoral. These are outrageous statements. We are being played. I'm cancelling my divorce because my husband sat in the cockpit once and these posts convinced me he must have been a bad boy. Sure glad I figured this out. ;)

I'm not saying that money is never returned in Provo, I'm saying that there is a distinct difference between how the people act in regards to their religion in Saudi Arabia as opposed to Provo (and I utilized Provo for two reasons...first because it's one of the most LDS prevalent areas, and secondly I actually lost my wallet while visiting there once. It was returned to me in truth, minus my credit cards and cash. I had the same situation in Saudi, and it was returned by the police (it was turned in to them within 60 seconds of my having left the store apparently from their time tables of when they got it) with everything in it.

Of course, you have to realize how harsh the punishments are in Saudi. You have more to fear from foreign visitors than from the natives there in regards to crime, simply because of how harsh the law and punishments are in regards to it. In Provo, members are not required to live morally, while in Saudi it is.

If you want an LDS parallel, it would be as if Provo was living the Lord plan of free agency, and Saudi was living the Adversary's plan where you are compelled to do right or bad things will happen. However, people DO live in accordance to the morals at a much higher percentage, whether it is from fear, or from religious obligation in Saudi from what I've seen.

They have that example of their religion in the very public eye there (and of course in the world's eye are the very BAD examples of their religion which give Muslims a bad name...but overall, I have been VERY impressed in regards to many Muslim's morality).

Another LDS parallel could be if you see the Nephites and the Lamanites. While the Nephites were growing more and more prideful and evil, the Lamanites were not. Even when the Lamanites were wicked, the evils of the Nephites exceeded that of the Lamanites when the Nephites became wicked. You could say a parallel in that would be if the Muslims would be related to the Lamanites in a metaphorical sense, than why should we expect condemnation on the Muslims when they honor their wives and their commandments while we discard them right and left in the West? Just as the Nephites felt superior to the Lamanites even in wickedness, while the Lamanites were not quite as wicked as they were, could be an apt parallel to the differences today between Muslim nations that are not at war currently and our own Western nations.

[bornfree]

Of course I am compelled to relay examples of the wonderful people of my religion, I'm sure you agree in many ways. I have a propensity for loyalty in all aspects of my life, but especially for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I shared a hospital room with a woman who was an executive with Exxon. She had a home in Telluride Colorado and has some heart pain while in that high altitude. We were also visiting Telluride and I was having the same symptoms. Neither one of us could sleep that night so we spent it talking. At one point I told her I was lds, she wasn't, but praised the young men of our church that worked at Exxon. She said the Return Missionaries got hired over most because of the reputation they had built with the company. Then one time I was having some enhancement surgery and.....Hahaha I'm kidding now, but the Exxon credibility is true.

[marc]

Dash, I have observed in my lifetime and it has also been evident on this forum how people's testimonies or at least faithfulness hinge upon those called to lead/serve in prominent positions, whether at the local level or at the world level. More often than not, I have observed that people leave the LDS church because they have either been offended by a church leader/member or because a church leader erred. The rest fall away because they misunderstand doctrine. I have never seen anyone actually leave the church because they preferred darkness over light. In other words, even after knowing, or at least professing to know something is true, they reject it for the world. In the Book of Mormon, Moroni exhorts the reader to ask God if "these things are not true." In other words, we are to judge teachings, principles and doctrines and NOT men, regardless of their standing before the Lord.

David, though an elect an anointed of God, fell because he sent Uriah to his death after having committed adultery with Bathsheba. Judas, a chosen apostle by Jesus Christ Himself, betrayed his Savior, choosing darkness over light. But we remain firm in our Christian beliefs, men notwithstanding. I have known of promiscuous leaders at the local level as well as read about leaders at the world level (general authorities) who have been excommunicated. Lee and Lyman come to mind. It doesn't matter if they were kings, apostles or pilots, though. Men, no matter how noble their calling, are men. They are mortal flesh. Still, if God waited for us to be sinless as Christ before being called to the work, nothing would ever be done.

I love and sustain my leaders from my bishop all the way to our presiding high priest, President Monson. I do not envy them or their callings. They have big shoes to fill. And maybe there are those along those lines of authority who, like King David or George P. Lee, sin grievously, but it does not render Christ's doctrine false, whether the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Neither does it render doctrines or His promises invalid. He has promised us gifts, which He alone gives. So, if for example, President Uchtdorf, who I love to listen to, by the way because I served a mission in Germany, was found facing excommunication, it would not in the slightest affect my testimony because my testimony about him or any other leader is not relevant to my knowledge of my standing before the Lord, which only the Lord can and does give.

Anyway, this stumbling block is not uncommon even among LDS. The rock, which the Lord declared that the wise man must build upon has never been King David, Judas, Peter, Paul, Joseph Smith or Thomas S. Monson. They may be authorized messengers and authorized servants, but only Christ is the keeper of the gate. Only Christ is the stone upon which if one builds, one cannot fall. Only Christ forgives sins. Only Christ declares you a son/daughter. Only Christ parts the veil and makes His abode with you. Only Christ saves us from sin and death. But to the hard hearted, He can become a rock of offense that makes people stumble. That, however, is another matter. Despite all the dark history in the LDS church, the doctrine of salvation is true. Authority to perform ordinances is found herein. And the Holy Ghost does ratify those ordinances to those who are faithful in coming to Christ.

[Dash jones]

Dash, I have observed in my lifetime and it has also been evident on this forum how people's testimonies or at least faithfulness hinge upon those called to lead/serve in prominent positions, whether at the local level or at the world level. More often than not, I have observed that people leave the LDS church because they have either been offended by a church leader/member or because a church leader erred. The rest fall away because they misunderstand doctrine. I have never seen anyone actually leave the church because they preferred darkness over light. In other words, even after knowing, or at least professing to know something is true, they reject it for the world. In the Book of Mormon, Moroni exhorts the reader to ask God if "these things are not true." In other words, we are to judge teachings, principles and doctrines and NOT men, regardless of their standing before the Lord.

David, though an elect an anointed of God, fell because he sent Uriah to his death after having committed adultery with Bathsheba. Judas, a chosen apostle by Jesus Christ Himself, betrayed his Savior, choosing darkness over light. But we remain firm in our Christian beliefs, men notwithstanding. I have known of promiscuous leaders at the local level as well as read about leaders at the world level (general authorities) who have been excommunicated. Lee and Lyman come to mind. It doesn't matter if they were kings, apostles or pilots, though. Men, no matter how noble their calling, are men. They are mortal flesh. Still, if God waited for us to be sinless as Christ before being called to the work, nothing would ever be done.

I love and sustain my leaders from my bishop all the way to our presiding high priest, President Monson. I do not envy them or their callings. They have big shoes to fill. And maybe there are those along those lines of authority who, like King David or George P. Lee, sin grievously, but it does not render Christ's doctrine false, whether the Bible or the Book of Mormon. Neither does it render doctrines or His promises invalid. He has promised us gifts, which He alone gives. So, if for example, President Uchtdorf, who I love to listen to, by the way because I served a mission in Germany, was found facing excommunication, it would not in the slightest affect my testimony because my testimony about him or any other leader is not relevant to my knowledge of my standing before the Lord, which only the Lord can and does give.

Anyway, this stumbling block is not uncommon even among LDS. The rock, which the Lord declared that the wise man must build upon has never been King David, Judas, Peter, Paul, Joseph Smith or Thomas S. Monson. They may be authorized messengers and authorized servants, but only Christ is the keeper of the gate. Only Christ is the stone upon which if one builds, one cannot fall. Only Christ forgives sins. Only Christ declares you a son/daughter. Only Christ parts the veil and makes His abode with you. Only Christ saves us from sin and death. But to the hard hearted, He can become a rock of offense that makes people stumble. That, however, is another matter. Despite all the dark history in the LDS church, the doctrine of salvation is true. Authority to perform ordinances is found herein. And the Holy Ghost does ratify those ordinances to those who are faithful in coming to Christ.

That's a very powerful and good post. It is possible if I had a testimony I wouldn't have the problems. After reading your post I could see how that might be a possibility. It isn't specific leaders, but the church as a whole.

I can see how that is relevant with the past which you also bring up. There have been General Authorities in the past in the LDS church (especially in the early days of the LDS church) that fell into transgression or sin and were excommunicated or disfellowshipped. If one based their testimony off of those, then when those people fell away, so would that one who based their testimony off of it.

That does not mean you should not have a testimony of the LDS leaders being divinely selected as long as they are serving in righteousness, one should, and the Holy Ghost should confirm that to people about their leaders. However, everyone is mortal and so one's faithfulness to the LDS church should not be based upon their leaders, but rather on the principles of the LDS church.

I suppose that's why if I bring things up to the missionaries they always stress and go back to Read the Book of Mormon and pray about it in regards to that type of testimony.

I think that's what you are saying?

That's a good point that I'll think about.

[Dash jones]

Of course I am compelled to relay examples of the wonderful people of my religion, I'm sure you agree in many ways. I have a propensity for loyalty in all aspects of my life, but especially for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I shared a hospital room with a woman who was an executive with Exxon. She had a hone in Telluride Colorado and has some heart pain while in that high altitude. We were also visiting Telluride and I was having the same symptoms. Neither one of us could sleep that night so we spent it talking. At one point I told her I was lds, she wasn't but praised the young men of our church that worked at Exxon. She said the Return Missionaries got hired over most because of the reputation they had built with the company. Then one time I was having some enhancement surgery and.....Hahaha I'm kidding now, but the Exxon credibility is true.

Back where I come from there is almost no exposure to the LDS church. It may exist, but it seems almost non-existent (to the point that the only Mormons one normally hears about is via the News). I only meet them in travel and when I visit people here in the states (as I am currently). There have been times that people have been particularly vocal against the LDS church though, even though there are practically none of them where I live (irony). I have studied a great deal about Mormons (but that's far different than being around them) and so I have a lot of book knowledge, but not as much practical (experience with them) knowledge.


I have done a great deal of studying, but with the exception of extended family here in the US, much of my associations with the LDS are through volunteer efforts I do. I do meet with missionaries when I can, and I'm certain they are constantly hoping that I'll be baptized. They seem like very clean cut and devoted young people. They seem to have a fervent belief in the LDS church and an exuberance. I don't think I'm that devoted to my church (or that I could be to any religion) that they are to the LDS church and the sacrifices they seem to make to go on and during their missions. (Like no movies, only Mondays to do shopping and washing, no real social media of their own, etc...etc...etc).

It shows strength of character for those missionaries who are making the sacrifices to serve their missions.

[marc]

I suppose that's why if I bring things up to the missionaries they always stress and go back to Read the Book of Mormon and pray about it in regards to that type of testimony.

I think that's what you are saying?

Yes. I remember being a young missionary and not having all the answers. Today the church has published a giant manual called Preach My Gospel, which is a good tool, but the Book of Mormon is all you need. Joseph Smith didn't need a giant manual when he sent early elders out to preach the gospel. The Book of Mormon was so important to the Lord that the work of translation was to be complete before Joseph's task to restore the gospel was given.

I do have a testimony, of course, that Christ's church is and has always been built upon the foundation of prophets, Himself being the chief cornerstone. We read about this in the New Testament. Back then a chief cornerstone was placed on the ground from which all other foundation stones would be set in relation to that chief cornerstone. Otherwise, you have a structure, which rises out of square with crooked walls and all kinds of other problems.

After all, the Bible and the Book of Mormon were written by those prophets, or at least by scribes chronicling the messages and authority of the prophets. But again, my testimony of Thomas S. Monson's calling in an organization outlined by God does not affect my testimony from Christ about my standing before Him, nor is my testimony given to me by the Holy Ghost of my standing affected by Thomas S. Monson's position in the church. I rely on the Holy Ghost to reveal to me whether authorized messengers speak the truth. I do not, however, rely on authorized messengers to tell me whether or not the Holy Ghost is revealing truth to me. There is a HUGE difference.

[bornfree]

Of course I am compelled to relay examples of the wonderful people of my religion, I'm sure you agree in many ways. I have a propensity for loyalty in all aspects of my life, but especially for the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I shared a hospital room with a woman who was an executive with Exxon. She had a hone in Telluride Colorado and has some heart pain while in that high altitude. We were also visiting Telluride and I was having the same symptoms. Neither one of us could sleep that night so we spent it talking. At one point I told her I was lds, she wasn't but praised the young men of our church that worked at Exxon. She said the Return Missionaries got hired over most because of the reputation they had built with the company. Then one time I was having some enhancement surgery and.....Hahaha I'm kidding now, but the Exxon credibility is true.

Back where I come from there is almost no exposure to the LDS church. It may exist, but it seems almost non-existent (to the point that the only Mormons one normally hears about is via the News). I only meet them in travel and when I visit people here in the states (as I am currently). There have been times that people have been particularly vocal against the LDS church though, even though there are practically none of them where I live (irony). I have studied a great deal about Mormons (but that's far different than being around them) and so I have a lot of book knowledge, but not as much practical (experience with them) knowledge.


I have done a great deal of studying, but with the exception of extended family here in the US, much of my associations with the LDS are through volunteer efforts I do. I do meet with missionaries when I can, and I'm certain they are constantly hoping that I'll be baptized. They seem like very clean cut and devoted young people. They seem to have a fervent belief in the LDS church and an exuberance. I don't think I'm that devoted to my church (or that I could be to any religion) that they are to the LDS church and the sacrifices they seem to make to go on and during their missions. (Like no movies, only Mondays to do shopping and washing, no real social media of their own, etc...etc...etc).

It shows strength of character for those missionaries who are making the sacrifices to serve their missions.

You have an amazing ability to express yourself while remaining objective, kind and complementary. :ymhug:

I have always recognized that when pure testimony is borne, the spirit cannot be restrained. The spirit of truth is what I feel when Marc posts.
My countenance changes, my heart softens, and I hear truth. ( I just wanted to share that with you.)

[djinwa]

I'm going to share a secret here.

Most men like women and sex. Believe it or not, they even like looking at women other than their wives! Let that sink in.

Even if they are GA's, they will still enjoy looking at women and thinking about sex. That is how God designed men.

In feminist societies and organizations such as the church, the interests of men are suppressed, but men still have the same desires. We just learn to keep them quiet.

I'm not saying we should act on those urges, but they still exist. Somehow people think we should not be what we are.

That would be like telling women they shouldn't lust after material things. How would that work? Just pretend like you don't want a nice home and fine furniture and guys with the money to buy all that? Yeah, right. Why do we allow sales flyers to come in the home and entice us to buy more? Pornography!!!!!

I keep seeing more and more examples of women who have torn up their families over lust for material things - getting divorced and tearing kids away from dad because he didn't make enough money. But hey, that's nothing compared to a dad occasionally looking at porn, right? Most divorces are initiated by women, and most are over money issues. Like my nephew who now gets to drive hours to pick up his kids every other weekend after his wife bailed on him because he didn't make enough money. No shame or disciplinary action or shame whatsoever for his wife. I continue to be baffled at the complete and utter lack of interest in this serious issue. Criminal if you ask me. Ok for mom to tear up the family as long as dad never looks at porn! Certainly it is much better for the kids to live apart from him, than potentially learn about his porn habit!

In the last month, I've seen 3 new guys at work who report they are trying to support their kids after the moms ditched them. I thought it was only men who were bad. I mean, guys look at porn and talk dirty and look at other women, right? Women are all sweet and innocent victims and never gossip or cheat in other ways, right?

Yep, guys are bad, bad, bad. Just don't understand why God made us this way. Some kind of cruel joke or what?

[bornfree]

I'm going to share a secret here.

Most men like women and sex. Believe it or not, they even like looking at women other than their wives! Let that sink in.

Even if they are GA's, they will still enjoy looking at women and thinking about sex. That is how God designed men.

In feminist societies and organizations such as the church, the interests of men are suppressed, but men still have the same desires. We just learn to keep them quiet.

I'm not saying we should act on those urges, but they still exist. Somehow people think we should not be what we are.

That would be like telling women they shouldn't lust after material things. How would that work? Just pretend like you don't want a nice home and fine furniture and guys with the money to buy all that? Yeah, right. Why do we allow sales flyers to come in the home and entice us to buy more? Pornography!!!!!

I keep seeing more and more examples of women who have torn up their families over lust for material things - getting divorced and tearing kids away from dad because he didn't make enough money. But hey, that's nothing compared to a dad occasionally looking at porn, right? Most divorces are initiated by women, and most are over money issues. Like my nephew who now gets to drive hours to pick up his kids every other weekend after his wife bailed on him because he didn't make enough money. No shame or disciplinary action or shame whatsoever for his wife. I continue to be baffled at the complete and utter lack of interest in this serious issue. Criminal if you ask me. Ok for mom to tear up the family as long as dad never looks at porn! Certainly it is much better for the kids to live apart from him, than potentially learn about his porn habit!

In the last month, I've seen 3 new guys at work who report they are trying to support their kids after the moms ditched them. I thought it was only men who were bad. I mean, guys look at porn and talk dirty and look at other women, right? Women are all sweet and innocent victims and never gossip or cheat in other ways, right?

Yep, guys are bad, bad, bad. Just don't understand why God made us this way. Some kind of cruel joke or what?

We all fight the natural man in one way or another. Coveting is something we are warned about, and yes I have seen women like that, but its not my call, I just try to live the best I can. I'm not their judge.

I don't claim to believe the GA's are looking at women and thinking about sex, I can't read their minds. But I believe they desire and labor to draw near to the Lord, in all their ways, and that includes their thoughts. We've seen some fall, they are mortals, its part of the plan, right? The Atonement is for them too.

As far as men looking at other women than their wives, news flash! haha I will tell you that if my husband does that in front of me, he is in trouble!
I find it disrespectful and crude. I can't control what he does when I'm not around. I have learned that I only have control over myself.

Men shouldn't look at pornography and women shouldn't tear up their family over money. If only we could all live the gospel perfectly, wouldn't life be amazing. There's a right way to live and be happy. I'm sorry you've had these challenges with women etc. Have faith, things will get better! :ymhug:

[freedomforall]

i am not going to read all this, but have read enough. My Brother in Law was in the Blue Angels (whoooo), and will tell you they have strict rule within their own group about womanizing and cheating. I know of an incident of a pilot cheating on his wife was discharged - just for that - it did not effect his performance, but the reason was it effected the trust within the team.

I do have a problem with many of these "Utah" Mormons yapping about the "vile" talk in the Army. Guess what? You just joined an organization with people from all different walks of life with all kinds of questionable motives designed to kill people in the fastest imaginable way, and you want to complain about the language use? HAHAHAHA cry to your DI, man up and join the Marines!

and to the OP ... it is not the job descriptions you have issues with it might be the type of people you hang with.

I was a jarhead from 1966-70. I learned how to be a real Marine, bad language, bad attitude, moral decay and careless living. It took years before I could talk without spewing something foul. The measure of a man is not based on how corrupt they can become. Recently, I heard, on Youtube I think, a platoon marching and the attitude and disgusting language used associated with the cadence made my platoon seem innocent. Young Mormons joining the Marines will find it very difficult to refrain from this blend of evil. And the immoral acts by so many humans is beyond reasonable explanation. It would take a very strong, faithful and committed young man to abstain from being sucked into such a disgusting lifestyle, beginning with boot camp. I'm sure somebody could do it and should get a good conduct medal. Pilots? Ya, right!
Why do people get their underwear in a bunch over what every person around them may or may not be doing. Who has ever witnessed someone get a college diploma with high honors without having put their heart into what it took to earn it? Likewise, who has the right to go to God's kingdom without having participated in the requirements to get there? Who has seen someone get an award having worked real hard and doing all they could to qualify for it, and a guy standing next to him also gets one because he has a nice smile, having done nothing to earn the award?
Why does a person judge everyone around them as if they have anything to do with their own spiritual growth? Can any man repent for the sins of another? The gospel is a "one size fits all" once each seeker of truth come together as "one" then becoming "one" with Christ, each member having to make the grade on their own by good works and real intent...with the help of Christ...that is, He being perfect, without spot.

[freedomforall]

Speaking of pilots, this is the way they should talk:

[Todd]

I'm going to share a secret here.

I'm not saying we should act on those urges [lust], but they still exist. Somehow people think we should not be what we are.

Satan and his minions will use the "Big Three" : LUST, VANITY and PRIDE to tempt us. Whoever you are, man, woman or GA, you can be swayed by these temptations. Only through the protection of the light of Christ do we have a fighting chance to repel these deadly desires.

I say you are correct. The natural man will always have lustful thoughts when he looks at the opposite sex. He will look at women as an object rather than a daughter of God. This behavior is a direct reflection of the lack of light in his soul.

A man born of the spirit who cultivates the light of Christ in his life (through constant prayer, immersing himself in the scriptures, bearing testimony, worshiping with others, serving others at every opportunity (especially those who can do nothing for him), learning how to listen to the still small voice), will never look at a woman with lustful eyes -- which is the same as committing adultery according to Jesus.

It is a humbling thing to know that at any time we can fall to lust, vanity or pride if the light of Christ dims in us. It doesn't matter if we are a pilot or a plumber -- satan doesn't care. The prophets never changing guidance has always been: Read, Pray and go to church. Simple, yet powerful antidotes to the wicked world around us.

I appreciate Marcs' words in a previous post, "the Book of Mormon is all you need." And why is this? Because, in my experience, reading the Book of Mormon with sincerity and a pure heart grows the light of Christ inside you. And as the light of Christ burns inside you, you will no longer have those "urges."

[Elizabeth]

:-BD

A man born of the spirit who cultivates the light of Christ in his life (through constant prayer, immersing himself in the scriptures, bearing testimony, worshiping with others, serving others at every opportunity (especially those who can do nothing for him), learning how to listen to the still small voice), will never look at a woman with lustful eyes -- which is the same as committing adultery according to Jesus.

It is a humbling thing to know that at any time we can fall to lust, vanity or pride if the light of Christ dims in us. It doesn't matter if we are a pilot or a plumber -- satan doesn't care. The prophets never changing guidance has always been: Read, Pray and go to church. Simple, yet powerful anecdotes to the wicked world around us.

I appreciate Marcs' words in a previous post, "the Book of Mormon is all you need." And why is this? Because, in my experience, reading the Book of Mormon with sincerity and a pure heart grows the light of Christ inside you. And as the light of Christ burns inside you, you will no longer have those "urges."

[bornfree]

i am not going to read all this, but have read enough. My Brother in Law was in the Blue Angels (whoooo), and will tell you they have strict rule within their own group about womanizing and cheating. I know of an incident of a pilot cheating on his wife was discharged - just for that - it did not effect his performance, but the reason was it effected the trust within the team.

I do have a problem with many of these "Utah" Mormons yapping about the "vile" talk in the Army. Guess what? You just joined an organization with people from all different walks of life with all kinds of questionable motives designed to kill people in the fastest imaginable way, and you want to complain about the language use? HAHAHAHA cry to your DI, man up and join the Marines!

and to the OP ... it is not the job descriptions you have issues with it might be the type of people you hang with.

I was a jarhead from 1966-70. I learned how to be a real Marine, bad language, bad attitude, moral decay and careless living. It took years before I could talk without spewing something foul. The measure of a man is not based on how corrupt they can become. Recently, I heard, on Youtube I think, a platoon marching and the attitude and disgusting language used associated with the cadence made my platoon seem innocent. Young Mormons joining the Marines will find it very difficult to refrain from this blend of evil. And the immoral acts by so many humans is beyond reasonable explanation. It would take a very strong, faithful and committed young man to abstain from being sucked into such a disgusting lifestyle, beginning with boot camp. I'm sure somebody could do it and should get a good conduct medal. Pilots? Ya, right!
Why do people get their underwear in a bunch over what every person around them may or may not be doing. Who has ever witnessed someone get a college diploma with high honors without having put their heart into what it took to earn it? Likewise, who has the right to go to God's kingdom without having participated in the requirements to get there? Who has seen someone get an award having worked real hard and doing all they could to qualify for it, and a guy standing next to him also gets one because he has a nice smile, having done nothing to earn the award?
Why does a person judge everyone around them as if they have anything to do with their own spiritual growth? Can any man repent for the sins of another? The gospel is a "one size fits all" once each seeker of truth come together as "one" then becoming "one" with Christ, each member having to make the grade on their own by good works and real intent...with the help of Christ...that is, He being perfect, without spot.

Thank you for this, you have amazing wisdom.

[freedomforall]

i am not going to read all this, but have read enough. My Brother in Law was in the Blue Angels (whoooo), and will tell you they have strict rule within their own group about womanizing and cheating. I know of an incident of a pilot cheating on his wife was discharged - just for that - it did not effect his performance, but the reason was it effected the trust within the team.

I do have a problem with many of these "Utah" Mormons yapping about the "vile" talk in the Army. Guess what? You just joined an organization with people from all different walks of life with all kinds of questionable motives designed to kill people in the fastest imaginable way, and you want to complain about the language use? HAHAHAHA cry to your DI, man up and join the Marines!

and to the OP ... it is not the job descriptions you have issues with it might be the type of people you hang with.

I was a jarhead from 1966-70. I learned how to be a real Marine, bad language, bad attitude, moral decay and careless living. It took years before I could talk without spewing something foul. The measure of a man is not based on how corrupt they can become. Recently, I heard, on Youtube I think, a platoon marching and the attitude and disgusting language used associated with the cadence made my platoon seem innocent. Young Mormons joining the Marines will find it very difficult to refrain from this blend of evil. And the immoral acts by so many humans is beyond reasonable explanation. It would take a very strong, faithful and committed young man to abstain from being sucked into such a disgusting lifestyle, beginning with boot camp. I'm sure somebody could do it and should get a good conduct medal. Pilots? Ya, right!
Why do people get their underwear in a bunch over what every person around them may or may not be doing. Who has ever witnessed someone get a college diploma with high honors without having put their heart into what it took to earn it? Likewise, who has the right to go to God's kingdom without having participated in the requirements to get there? Who has seen someone get an award having worked real hard and doing all they could to qualify for it, and a guy standing next to him also gets one because he has a nice smile, having done nothing to earn the award?
Why does a person judge everyone around them as if they have anything to do with their own spiritual growth? Can any man repent for the sins of another? The gospel is a "one size fits all" once each seeker of truth come together as "one" then becoming "one" with Christ, each member having to make the grade on their own by good works and real intent...with the help of Christ...that is, He being perfect, without spot.

Thank you for this, you have amazing wisdom.

Thank you.

[Sandinista]

I spent 21 years as as an Air Force pilot flying both bomber and fighter type aircraft so I can probably speak to this topic with a little bit of credibility. I never flew with the airlines, figured that would be too boring after flying high performance aircraft for so long but the culture is probably the same, especially as many airline pilots are former military pilots. In short the answer to your question is no, there is no more a culture of immorality and drinking in the military flying squadrons than in any other mostly male dominated high pressure job.

Is there pressure to conform to a perceived "Top Gun" lifestyle, especially when away from home/deployed? Yes, but there are the same pressures when businessmen go to conventions in Las Vegas, or when groupies hang around professional athletes, or in many other jobs. To fly in combat takes a certain type of personality, a taste for adventure, a desire to push the edges of life a little. You have to like the adrenaline rush that 500 knots at 50 feet gives you. Unlike civilian airliners or commercial pilots, military aviators live on the very boundaries of the performance "envelopes" of their aircraft. A mistake is often fatal; I stopped counting the number of friends I lost to accidents or combat. Every day when you left home you might not have come back. There are a lot of other professions with similar dynamics, and these professions tend to attract the same kind of people, often people with the ability to handle high risk situations. That risk comes with the potential of huge rewards whether it be in climbing the corporate ladder with the large salaries inherent with jobs that require decisions that often mean huge profits or losses for a company, or in successfully being able to rescue someone from a burning building or sinking fishing boat, or successfully putting the right ordinance on a target while someone else is trying to kill you. But the risk also has the potential for huge mistakes. The truly successful person is the one who recognizes how to control and focus their personality or their skills into achieving "mission" success. Those who cannot not do that tend to allow their professional lives to spill over into their personal lives, often with disastrous results. And believe it or not this is where the Gospel comes in. The Gospel teaches us how to control the "natural man", to submit our will to the Father's will, to focus our energies on righteous endeavors. Life is inherently risky, but men, or women, who have learned to focus their personality, skills, or abilities on the "mission" of a successful life avoid the mistakes bad decisions can lead to and achieve what our Father wants us to achieve.

Sure I've seen men who have taken the "low road" in my professional life, both in the Air Force and for the past 20 years as a business executive. But the number is no different than the number of men who have taken similar paths in other demanding professions. Unfortunately Hollywood makes movies such as Top Gun and suddenly we think that is what every pilot does. Not so, at least if you want to live long. Remember I said pilots live at the edge of their envelopes? They live at the edge of their "envelopes" in their personal lives as well, but like their professional lives those that know and respect the boundaries live and those that do not die. Make sense?

[sandman45]

I spent 21 years as as an Air Force pilot flying both bomber and fighter type aircraft

/salute Sandinista

I have 3 very close relatives who flew fighters for the Air Force in combat ranging from WW2 to Vietnam. They all turned out to be great men and ended up being great leaders in life and in the church. It is what got me to join the military and serve a mission. They were my heroes and I am glad they didn't let the pilot lifestyle stick with them... I don't know details but i am sure they stumbled throughout life because of the situations they were in (pilot lifestyle or not).. but in the end they turned out to be great men.