One item that bothers me a little and a stumbling block for me in regards to the LDS religion currently, Pilots.

[Dash jones]

Being a pilot doesn't equal being immoral.

Neither does owning and operating a strip club or being in the film industry of pornography necessarily. However there is a stigma about doing those things and a stereotype that are based upon the reality of what goes on with those who are in those industries.

You could be a make up artist or in lighting or the financial accountant of a business in those industries...but you are still surrounded by that type of stuff and hence those who fall into it are the norm.

You point me to a pilot and I could probably say there is a high percentage chance that they have one of the following moral problems. They are either cheating explicitly without their spouses knowledge, cheating emotionally, cheating in their hearts, or have participated in watching, viewing, or supporting pornography in their piloting careers. There's also a good chance (but less of one) that they are an alcoholic but will deny it. There is that small number who are moral, but there is an overwhelming percentage that have serious chastity problems as far as I see it (which of course, the world would say many of those are not that serious comparatively).

You could say I was disillusioned with the industry by first hand experience of those inside of it. I've never run into it as prevalent or as serious as it is in that industry in any other I've ever participated in or worked in, including some where it is also stereotyped regarding loose morals and high stress. Some other careers and businesses have some pretty nasty people in it (and pretty corrupt), but in regards to the chastity specifically, it's insane with how it works in the aviation circles.

So, yes, being a pilot does not equate as immoral, especially if you are a private pilot probably, or own your own piloting business that is composed of yourself and a plane. In commercial and military, it's pretty dang hard to stay moral. It does not mean pilot = immoral, it just means that it is so prevalent among those who choose that field that if I doubt the morality of almost anyone in that field without evidence from friends (normally those you fly with is the best evidence, if they come out talking about certain things etc...bad sign for you) that one works with...well...

(military itself in certain specialties can be bad as well, but aviation thus far struck me the worst of them...I would guess (and this IS my hypothesis but is ONLY a guess as I don't know why it's so prevalent to the point of even being worse among aviation than others) probably because most of them are at least a warrant officer and hence have a LOT more leeway in what they can get away with. Plenty of immoral enlisted...but they can't get away with quite as much as an officer can...and hence can't inspire or otherwise lead into the immorality, or be able to hide it as well...but in reality, though it can be bad, I don't know why I saw it as the worst in aviation over that of other fields. Infantry at least are far more straightforward with it for those who are being immoral. In addition, I will admit my experiences lean more towards commercial aviation rather than military).

That doesn't mean they aren't moral in other areas (as I said, most are VERY stringent in air regulations and following them, and you should feel safer in a plane than on the roads), but in regards to chastity, it's like the boys club of teenagers that never grew up.


Adding that the most astonishing of this is that they turn into totally different people when they come home. It's like many of them literally are two different people that lead two different lives. At home they will seem to be the most loyal and upright person, but once they get on the plane and to a different location, it's like night and day. At home, mature adult, away it's the boys club gone crazy. Some obviously are worse then others, but it's all part of that boys being boys mentality.

[Sarah]

There is always the exception.

What I rely on is what I feel when I listen to and read their words. With the apostles, we have been able to do this for many years, multiple times each year. I feel the Holy Ghost when they speak, and know they are inspired. So even if they have made some mistakes in life, I have a testimony that the Lord is using them to establish His Kingdom here on earth.

[freedomforall]

However, this has nothing to do with the fundamental principles of those items, but of certain leaders today. Even if by some miracle I had a testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, this one issue could very strongly persuade me to not join the LDS church.

I'm not responding in an effort to get you to accept all sins that the church members commit. What I would like you to do is realize that when someone joins the church, they are not joining to merely be with other people as a social gathering on Sunday.
Each person that receives baptism and membership in the church is starting out in a partnership with our Lord and Savior, He and I, you and He, He and every other church member in a one on one partnership.
Don't worry about what other people are doing or how, rather, do the very best in that new relationship which only you can do. Each person in their specific relationship with Christ are responsible for all their sins and folly, yet for the people truly intent on living up to their covenants and to live their life pleasing to the Lord will receive the greater blessings. The Lord allows them time to repent. If He were to remove all sinners from our congregations...how many people would there be remaining?
We all sin one way or another, each responsible to call upon God for forgiveness of their trespasses against Him. We, each one of us are either respecting that partnership or backing away from it due to our own sloppy attitude and bad works. The Lord, on the other hand, never backs away, never breaks that partnership...until the other party shows Him they no longer care.
If you allow pilots or anyone else to keep you from entering into a covenant partnership with Christ...can you blame them or yourself? No one can go to heaven on somebodies shirt tail.
Now, even though some people join up with the Savior, doesn't mean they will not ever sin again, it means that they truly want righteousness and, therefore, will repent often and keep trying. God wants a willing mind and genuine effort, for we are saved by grace after all we can do. 2 Nephi 25:23

Mosiah 4:27
27 And see that all these things are done in wisdom and order; for it is not requisite that a man should run faster than he has strength. And again, it is expedient that he should be diligent, that thereby he might win the prize; therefore, all things must be done in order.

Alma 1:26
26 And when the priests left their labor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man according to his strength.

Eccl. 9:11
11 ¶I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Amos 2:14 (14–15)
14 Therefore the flight shall perish from the swift, and the strong shall not strengthen his force, neither shall the mighty deliver himself:
15 Neither shall he stand that handleth the bow; and he that is swift of foot shall not deliver himself: neither shall he that rideth the horse deliver himself.

Moroni 10:32,33
32 Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ; and if by the grace of God ye are perfect in Christ, ye can in nowise deny the power of God.
33 And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot.

The above scripture is for members individually, not collectively.

What pilots do or anyone else does is on them. We do not have to join that crowd, what we can do is follow Christ and do our best.

[bornfree]

[freedomforall]

Wow I agree with shadow. God is great!

I agree with you and Shadow. And why?

Mosiah 26:31
31 And ye shall also forgive one another your trespasses; for verily I say unto you, he that forgiveth not his neighbor’s trespasses when he says that he repents, the same hath brought himself under condemnation.

It doesn't matter in the least what someone did or for how long, if they repent and we know what those sins are and, still, we hold his sins against him...we then receive the greater condemnation.

I love to hear President Uchtdorf speak and I could care less what his sins were or are. He, like all the rest of us should be, is in a partner relationship with Christ. And this is good enough for me. I do not want Mos 26:31 to ever be hanging over my head.

What say ye?

[freedomforall]

Jehovah went through trials, tribulations and temptations of all kinds. During the time in the Garden, He went below all things and above all things...so he would know how to succor anyone that calls upon him for help.

Right?

[freedomforall]

Being a pilot doesn't equal being immoral.

Neither does owning and operating a strip club or being in the film industry of pornography necessarily. However there is a stigma about doing those things and a stereotype that are based upon the reality of what goes on with those who are in those industries.

You could be a make up artist or in lighting or the financial accountant of a business in those industries...but you are still surrounded by that type of stuff and hence those who fall into it are the norm.

You point me to a pilot and I could probably say there is a high percentage chance that they have one of the following moral problems. They are either cheating explicitly without their spouses knowledge, cheating emotionally, cheating in their hearts, or have participated in watching, viewing, or supporting pornography in their piloting careers. There's also a good chance (but less of one) that they are an alcoholic but will deny it. There is that small number who are moral, but there is an overwhelming percentage that have serious chastity problems as far as I see it (which of course, the world would say many of those are not that serious comparatively).

You could say I was disillusioned with the industry by first hand experience of those inside of it. I've never run into it as prevalent or as serious as it is in that industry in any other I've ever participated in or worked in, including some where it is also stereotyped regarding loose morals and high stress. Some other careers and businesses have some pretty nasty people in it (and pretty corrupt), but in regards to the chastity specifically, it's insane with how it works in the aviation circles.

So, yes, being a pilot does not equate as immoral, especially if you are a private pilot probably, or own your own piloting business that is composed of yourself and a plane. In commercial and military, it's pretty dang hard to stay moral. It does not mean pilot = immoral, it just means that it is so prevalent among those who choose that field that if I doubt the morality of almost anyone in that field without evidence from friends (normally those you fly with is the best evidence, if they come out talking about certain things etc...bad sign for you) that one works with...well...

(military itself in certain specialties can be bad as well, but aviation thus far struck me the worst of them...I would guess (and this IS my hypothesis but is ONLY a guess as I don't know why it's so prevalent to the point of even being worse among aviation than others) probably because most of them are at least a warrant officer and hence have a LOT more leeway in what they can get away with. Plenty of immoral enlisted...but they can't get away with quite as much as an officer can...and hence can't inspire or otherwise lead into the immorality, or be able to hide it as well...but in reality, though it can be bad, I don't know why I saw it as the worst in aviation over that of other fields. Infantry at least are far more straightforward with it for those who are being immoral. In addition, I will admit my experiences lean more towards commercial aviation rather than military).

That doesn't mean they aren't moral in other areas (as I said, most are VERY stringent in air regulations and following them, and you should feel safer in a plane than on the roads), but in regards to chastity, it's like the boys club of teenagers that never grew up.


Adding that the most astonishing of this is that they turn into totally different people when they come home. It's like many of them literally are two different people that lead two different lives. At home they will seem to be the most loyal and upright person, but once they get on the plane and to a different location, it's like night and day. At home, mature adult, away it's the boys club gone crazy. Some obviously are worse then others, but it's all part of that boys being boys mentality.

Do you want some hard reality? Everyone sins, everyone. Does it really matter which sin is the best sin or the worst sin? God will not allow sin in the least degree into His kingdom. He doesn't give any allowance for what type of sin, whether a good sin or a bad sin, they're all sins.

Doctrine and Covenants 1:31
31 For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance;

And here is another hard reality:

James 2:10,11
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So let's be careful as to whom we judge, because God may be looking straight at one of us.

Moroni 10:32,33 offers a wonderful way to overcome our sins, so we may be looked upon as keeping the whole law intact, clean and pure before God. It's the only way.

[bornfree]

Jehovah went through trials, tribulations and temptations of all kinds. During the time in the Garden, He went below all things and above all things...so he would know how to succor anyone that calls upon him for help.

Right?

Right;

When Jesus took upon Himself the heavy, atoning yoke in order to redeem all mankind by paying the agonizing price for our sins, He thereby experienced what He Himself termed the "fierceness of the wrath of Almighty God" (D&C 76:107). The phrase itself makes the soul tremble. Jesus also volunteered to take upon Himself additional agony in order that He might experience and thus know certain things "according to the flesh," namely human sicknesses and infirmities and human griefs, including those not associated with sin (see Alma 7:11-12). Therefore, as a result of His great Atonement, Jesus was filled with unique empathy and with perfect mercy. ("Becoming a Disciple," Ensign, June 1996, p. 12)

[Dash jones]

It could be that my question has no answer that LDS members can give that would actually satisfy my difficulties in regards to what I have seen. I can accept that, though it would have been nice to get a resolution to this issue. Some things are not to be answered in this life.

I will say, for Mormons, it is necessary to believe in the apostolic authority of the twelve, and those that they choose to be General Authorities. These are men chosen by the Lord (as per LDS doctrine), regardless of the process that is chosen. I am not here to shake that. I fully feel that you, as good LDS members SHOULD support your leaders and should NOT speak evil of them at all. If they are the Lord's servants, it is requisite to support them and to ensure that you are with them instead of against them.

Mine is from a viewpoint different than that of a member, so forgive me if it felt intrusive. Some of my questions arise when given situations which seem to conflict with each other and trying to figure how these can work together in such a way. How does one resolve what appears to be a visible conflict of what is stated how it is done, with how it appears it was done. How does one resolve that as a Non-Member in regards to the LDS church?

That said, I would that your faith in your leaders be unshaken, and your resolve to follow them firm. My stumbling blocks should NOT be yours. You (as per LDS doctrine) who are members have the Holy Ghost to guide and confirm things to you. You have this to tell you the truth of all things and to confirm the standings of these Leaders in your hearts. Please have a little mercy and understanding on those of us who do not possess this gift, and forgive us of our doubts when faced with questions we do not have the answers to due to our lack of understanding.

[Melissa]

Being a pilot doesn't equal being immoral.

Neither does owning and operating a strip club or being in the film industry of pornography necessarily. However there is a stigma about doing those things and a stereotype that are based upon the reality of what goes on with those who are in those industries.

You could be a make up artist or in lighting or the financial accountant of a business in those industries...but you are still surrounded by that type of stuff and hence those who fall into it are the norm.

You point me to a pilot and I could probably say there is a high percentage chance that they have one of the following moral problems. They are either cheating explicitly without their spouses knowledge, cheating emotionally, cheating in their hearts, or have participated in watching, viewing, or supporting pornography in their piloting careers. There's also a good chance (but less of one) that they are an alcoholic but will deny it. There is that small number who are moral, but there is an overwhelming percentage that have serious chastity problems as far as I see it (which of course, the world would say many of those are not that serious comparatively).

You could say I was disillusioned with the industry by first hand experience of those inside of it. I've never run into it as prevalent or as serious as it is in that industry in any other I've ever participated in or worked in, including some where it is also stereotyped regarding loose morals and high stress. Some other careers and businesses have some pretty nasty people in it (and pretty corrupt), but in regards to the chastity specifically, it's insane with how it works in the aviation circles.

So, yes, being a pilot does not equate as immoral, especially if you are a private pilot probably, or own your own piloting business that is composed of yourself and a plane. In commercial and military, it's pretty dang hard to stay moral. It does not mean pilot = immoral, it just means that it is so prevalent among those who choose that field that if I doubt the morality of almost anyone in that field without evidence from friends (normally those you fly with is the best evidence, if they come out talking about certain things etc...bad sign for you) that one works with...well...

(military itself in certain specialties can be bad as well, but aviation thus far struck me the worst of them...I would guess (and this IS my hypothesis but is ONLY a guess as I don't know why it's so prevalent to the point of even being worse among aviation than others) probably because most of them are at least a warrant officer and hence have a LOT more leeway in what they can get away with. Plenty of immoral enlisted...but they can't get away with quite as much as an officer can...and hence can't inspire or otherwise lead into the immorality, or be able to hide it as well...but in reality, though it can be bad, I don't know why I saw it as the worst in aviation over that of other fields. Infantry at least are far more straightforward with it for those who are being immoral. In addition, I will admit my experiences lean more towards commercial aviation rather than military).

That doesn't mean they aren't moral in other areas (as I said, most are VERY stringent in air regulations and following them, and you should feel safer in a plane than on the roads), but in regards to chastity, it's like the boys club of teenagers that never grew up.


Adding that the most astonishing of this is that they turn into totally different people when they come home. It's like many of them literally are two different people that lead two different lives. At home they will seem to be the most loyal and upright person, but once they get on the plane and to a different location, it's like night and day. At home, mature adult, away it's the boys club gone crazy. Some obviously are worse then others, but it's all part of that boys being boys mentality.

I think owning and operating a strip club is immoral. So is being the camera man for a porn industry. The whole thing is immoral all the way down to selling the garbage to others. That's my view.

[Chip]

Dash, Dieter Uchtdorf is from Germany. Do you think there could be a difference in the mentality of European pilots vs. American pilots? I think that at the end of his career with Lufthansa, he was training other pilots. I imagine he was chosen for that job because of his competence and leadership. Lufthansa would probably want someone with their act together for that job. Just my thoughts. He seems like a good guy who's perhaps seen the kinds of things you have.

[Dash jones]

I think owning and operating a strip club is immoral. So is being the camera man for a porn industry. The whole thing is immoral all the way down to selling the garbage to others. That's my view.

That's why I listed the makeup, lights, and accountants. The accountants most of the time may see nothing more than the people who direct and lead and all the money ledgers. It's the associations which go with the business that normally can bring them down...

Owners on the other hand, are not necessarily any more immoral than others. I suppose it depends on what you consider Strip clubs, but there are Mormons in good standing that have pushed similar things in their hotels, and owned franchises in that arena (at least I think they are in good standing). Some have pulled up stakes in that regards, others have not.

Dash, Dieter Uchtdorf is from Germany. Do you think there could be a difference in the mentality of European pilots vs. American pilots? I think that at the end of his career with Lufthansa, he was training other pilots. I imagine he was chosen for that job because of his competence and leadership. Lufthansa would probably want someone with their act together for that job. Just my thoughts. He seems like a good guy who's perhaps seen the kinds of things you have.

I haven't pointed out any specific General authorities in regards to my comments. Presupposing it is one or another is probably reading more into it than one should.

I may have difficulties in regards to some selection principles of General Authorities, but I respect the LDS idea of not bad mouthing their leaders, especially on a forum of LDS members. If I did specify any, it was a mistake on my part (I don't recall specifying that this was a specific leader).

This is specific to a career field, but not specific to an individual, nor do I intend on making it so. It could also be read as in general, when one knows of a background that is not quite as stellar as one would expect for leaders of the LDS church...how should one react?

What happens if it appears to actually contradict the life style one would have expected of an LDS leader? What are non-Mormons supposed to think without further evidence?

That said, as I stated previously, LDS Mormons, as per the doctrine, should have the Holy Ghost to guide them. It can confirm to them whether the leader is chosen or not, and have that confirmation to rely on. They should not speak ill of their leaders (Local or General authorities) and support them in their righteous actions in the church. During his calling and time as an Apostle, I am unaware of anything Uchtdorf has done that is not righteous as in regards to LDS standards. In that, a member should not regard him as guilty.

My topic therefore, is far more general than focusing on an individual and I would not want to try to point out any specific individual General Authority in this fashion in regards to what I have stated. If one thinks that I am pointing to a specific individual, perhaps they should ask themselves why they feel that way. I am not intending on insulting any specific LDS leader, I apologize if you see it that way.

Unfortunately, I, as a Non-member do not have this confirmation ability that an LDS member should. AS such, I cannot rely on the feeling, but go on facts, personal experience, and other things which I have seen and do. In that regards, when one sees backgrounds in general that may not be consistent with how we have read leaders of the LDS church should be, it raises questions like the ones I have in this thread. However, this is specifically more from a non-member viewpoint I suppose, than an LDS one.

LDS members, I think, as per their teachings, should be able to pray about their leaders and receive confirmation by the Holy Spirit of their divine fore ordination and choice as righteous priesthood authorities here on this Earth.

[Chip]

Dash, you seem to be dancing around the matter of Pres. Uchtdorf having been a pilot and you having trust issues with pilots, all in contemplation of church leaders' integrity. I don't know that he hasn't done bad things, like pilots apparently tend to do. It doesn't seem like he's doing anything bad now, anyway. It doesn't bother me, in the least, that you wonder about such things. I'm quite sure nobody around here takes offense to your musings. I enjoy reading them, myself. I also imagine that Pres. Uchtdorf would speak frankly to you about his experience, but probably not confess to any specifics, as it's the Mormon way to always look forward and not dwell on past mistakes.

I was feeling really bad about something I had done once a couple of times after joining the church and I sorrowfully told a Mormon family I was close to about it, and it really changed things for the worse, surprisingly. I would have thought they'd at least find it instructive for their own lives. Mormon culture is see-no-evil/hear-no-evil, and if there's something you need to confess to, people expect you to go talk to your bishop. They don't want to hear about it, themselves. This is a rather peculiar way for Christians to be, as the original apostles said that church was for confessing your sins, among other things. We've outsourced that to the bishop. Personally, I think this antiseptic dopiness is why we can't save the Constitution, among other failures.

[Dash jones]

Dash, you seem to be dancing around the matter of Pres. Uchtdorf having been a pilot and you having trust issues with pilots, all in contemplation of church leaders' integrity. I don't know that he hasn't done bad things, like pilots apparently tend to do. It doesn't seem like he's doing anything bad now, anyway. It doesn't bother me, in the least, that you wonder about such things. I'm quite sure nobody around here takes offense to your musings. I enjoy reading them, myself. I also imagine that Pres. Uchtdorf would speak frankly to you about his experience, but probably not confess to any specifics, as it's the Mormon way to always look forward and not dwell on past mistakes.

No, but you do seem to be fixated on the idea that Uchtdorf is the only LDS leader that was a pilot. This is not so. I have not singled him out and in fact stated that while he's served as an apostle I've seen nothing during that time that has broken the regulations of the church.

Is there a reason you are specifically using this to point to him? I have not, nor do I wish to see this thread construed as a slam on a specific LDS leader.

It COULD be useful however, to have him talk on such an issue directly as he probably has direct experiences in dealing with the LDS culture conflicting with aviation culture. His viewpoint in regards to LDS general authorities in that position (of which there have been several) as well as those in that position in our culture in general (as I think this situation is one that is becoming more and more prevalent, where there is growing hostility towards Mormons and all Christians to where, in the future it may be that you cannot get a promotion if you adhere to Christian or Mormon principles, or perhaps even get fired from your job for doing so) could be very enlightening in light of the current problems coming against those who are believers of Christ.

As he had a position in Aviation as you have so pointedly stated, he probably has a thing or two that could aid Members that face these problems on a day to day basis, as well as resolve the question that non-members may have in regards to members (and in this instance, not just in aviation, but any from what could be questionable backgrounds in many areas) who have to deal with very worldly things and yet are chosen as LDS leaders (both on a local and higher levels).

[Chip]

Dash, as a Mormon, if I hear "pilot" and "church leader", there is only one connection to be made. Pres. Uchtdorf and his piloting have become nearly a cliche, at this point, with all his General Conference talks incorporating aviation. He even jokes about this theme. That's why I couldn't figure that YOU would be making any other connection. Sorry about that. By the way, I wrote another paragraph in that last post where I explained an aspect of Mormon thinking regarding sin.

[Dash jones]

I was feeling really bad about something I had done once a couple of times after joining the church and I sorrowfully told a Mormon family I was close to about it, and it really changed things for the worse, surprisingly. I would have thought they'd at least find it instructive for their own lives. Mormon culture is see-no-evil/hear-no-evil, and if there's something you need to confess to, people expect you to go talk to your bishop. They don't want to hear about it, themselves. This is a rather peculiar way for Christians to be, as the original apostles said that church was for confessing your sins, among other things. We've outsourced that to the bishop. Personally, I think this antiseptic dopiness is why we can't save the Constitution, among other failures.

It's similar and yet very different in my view Catholic Culture (other Catholics around the world may see it differently though, I don't speak for ALL Catholics by any margin). Perhaps this is why I want to have explanations of people's past. We go to confession and it is normally in private. HOWEVER, sometimes part of the confession is not just to the priest, but whatever he mandates that you do to make up for it. Many times if the sin is mortal (greivious, or more heavy sin, such as murder or adultery) this involves doing public items. In that, it is a public admission of what one has done, and also showing that they have made recompense with the Lord. This isn't always so, but occasionally a very public showing of repentance (as per the LDS idea) is given, especially for more public positions. I'd rather see it and see that it's all good than having it hidden from view.

I suppose Mormon culture could be very different in that aspect and it could be an area that I'm not really familiar with.

[Chip]

I was feeling really bad about something I had done once a couple of times after joining the church and I sorrowfully told a Mormon family I was close to about it, and it really changed things for the worse, surprisingly. I would have thought they'd at least find it instructive for their own lives. Mormon culture is see-no-evil/hear-no-evil, and if there's something you need to confess to, people expect you to go talk to your bishop. They don't want to hear about it, themselves. This is a rather peculiar way for Christians to be, as the original apostles said that church was for confessing your sins, among other things. We've outsourced that to the bishop. Personally, I think this antiseptic dopiness is why we can't save the Constitution, among other failures.

It's similar and yet very different in my view Catholic Culture (other Catholics around the world may see it differently though, I don't speak for ALL Catholics by any margin). Perhaps this is why I want to have explanations of people's past. We go to confession and it is normally in private. HOWEVER, sometimes part of the confession is not just to the priest, but whatever he mandates that you do to make up for it. Many times if the sin is mortal (greivious, or more heavy sin, such as murder or adultery) this involves doing public items. In that, it is a public admission of what one has done, and also showing that they have made recompense with the Lord. This isn't always so, but occasionally a very public showing of repentance (as per the LDS idea) is given, especially for more public positions. I'd rather see it and see that it's all good than having it hidden from view.

I suppose Mormon culture could be very different in that aspect and it could be an area that I'm not really familiar with.

What you've described seems very sensible to me. In our church, only rumors might inform you of serious sins others may have committed. I think it's most healthy in cases of public trust, as you point out, that things are aired and apologies are made, so there's less occasion for ongoing mistrust.

In my old stake, there was a young dentist who had a wife and four kids and he dressed impecably. He had a real problem, though, flirting with other men's wives, to the point where he would rub their legs and say inappropriate things to them. He seemed to me very smug and self-absorbed. Anyway, he was called to be a bishop. No less than five women contested and met with the stake president to lodge their concerns. Guess what happened. They went ahead and made him bishop without any explanation. As a Mormon, you are impressed to believe that this was Heavenly Father's will. Stuff like that really twists my sensibilities.

[shadow]

I'm still confused at your conundrum that a LDS general authority (the only one is Uchtdorf) was a pilot. It strikes me as odd that you believe all pilots are immoral. Obviously you've had or have seen some bad behavior by pilots. Certainly you don't know the majority of pilots. You paint with a very broad brush and as you judge others, so shall you be judged.

I've heard about bad behavior performed by many catholic priests on innocent little boys. So many it seemed rampant. All catholic priests must therefor be pedophiles except maybe a few. See what I did there?

[Dash jones]

I'm still confused at your conundrum that a LDS general authority (the only one is Uchtdorf) was a pilot. It strikes me as odd that you believe all pilots are immoral. Obviously you've had or have seen some bad behavior by pilots. Certainly you don't know the majority of pilots. You paint with a very broad brush and as you judge others, so shall you be judged.

I've heard about bad behavior performed by many catholic priests on innocent little boys. So many it seemed rampant. All catholic priests must therefor be pedophiles except maybe a few. See what I did there?

Actually that is incorrect. Just in the 12 there are 3 (well, I think 2 now) pilots. I'm not certain on the backgrounds of the new apostles, it is possible one of them also has a pilot background. You expand it out to other General Authorities and there are more. The pilot background in some part is actually part of many General Authorities...and more than the 70s if you include others (such as Area presidencies and such) into the mix as General Authorities.

I've mentioned the scandals in the Catholic church previously. I don't condone that either. However, if one wants to convert me to their church and say their leaders are chosen by the Lord, the onus is on them to prove such thing, and equalize how perceived sinful ways could correlate with church leadership. What does the LDS church leadership have that is more Holy and chosen then that of the Catholic? Onto the actual difficulty I have with the background, is a different element then the purely Catholic scandals.

However, the attitudes and actions of the aviation community may be hidden from many, but it's not a HUGE secret. In fact, if anything, all I'm doing is confirming that it actually is true (and mine is only one of many. Perhaps the testimonies of the many wives who also have seen it first hand would convince you more than a Catholic on a forum?). I doubt I'm the only one who has this as a stumbling block.

I've stopped short of some of the more serious accusations (there are those out there that will swear there is not a single commercial pilot out there that hasn't been involved in cheating) as I am relating more what I've seen rather than what others state. In my experience, all of them have chastity problems...every one. However, unlike the adage that many of the spouses, retirees, and others state, I haven't seen them all involved with cheating, but the moral ones are involved with what I'd consider pornography as something they've participated in at the very least.

There are many people that try to defend them and say it isn't true...especially newly wed spouses (then they seem to change their minds about 5 years later)...but I can't stress just how big this chastity problem is in the aviation community. Out of hundreds to thousands of pilots I have interacted with, I can only attest that I have met one that I really truly felt was Moral in every way. I have HEARD about others via second hand information and included them in prior posts. Personally though, ONLY ONE.

Would this offend some pilots...perhaps...until they realize that even if they consider themselves moral those magazines they pick up at the Airport to pass the time, the things they talk about in regards to the internet and TV all center around a form of pornography. And the conversations they have in the cockpit would either embarrass or enrage their wives/girlfriends. Well, the ones that are defending them of being all moral and such at least.

After that analysis, those same pilots would be offended that I would open up about the personal culture of the aviation community so openly, perhaps even consider me a traitor to the flyboy club. Currently it's a bad culture. You don't have to believe me or accept what I'm stating on it, but it's enough for me to say, those of us who have this type of exposure to the aviation culture and community are going to have this type of background as somewhat of a stumbling block.

PS: I should add, Uchtdorf only flew for around 10 years commercially, maybe 16 total for the AF times from what I hear. That still qualifies him as a pilot, but probably not the General Authority with the most hours...at least that would be my guess (I'm not privy to all the flight time or PIC time that each has).

[Melissa]

I think owning and operating a strip club is immoral. So is being the camera man for a porn industry. The whole thing is immoral all the way down to selling the garbage to others. That's my view.

That's why I listed the makeup, lights, and accountants. The accountants most of the time may see nothing more than the people who direct and lead and all the money ledgers. It's the associations which go with the business that normally can bring them down...

Owners on the other hand, are not necessarily any more immoral than others. I suppose it depends on what you consider Strip clubs, but there are Mormons in good standing that have pushed similar things in their hotels, and owned franchises in that arena (at least I think they are in good standing). Some have pulled up stakes in that regards, others have not.

Dash, Dieter Uchtdorf is from Germany. Do you think there could be a difference in the mentality of European pilots vs. American pilots? I think that at the end of his career with Lufthansa, he was training other pilots. I imagine he was chosen for that job because of his competence and leadership. Lufthansa would probably want someone with their act together for that job. Just my thoughts. He seems like a good guy who's perhaps seen the kinds of things you have.

I haven't pointed out any specific General authorities in regards to my comments. Presupposing it is one or another is probably reading more into it than one should.

I may have difficulties in regards to some selection principles of General Authorities, but I respect the LDS idea of not bad mouthing their leaders, especially on a forum of LDS members. If I did specify any, it was a mistake on my part (I don't recall specifying that this was a specific leader).

This is specific to a career field, but not specific to an individual, nor do I intend on making it so. It could also be read as in general, when one knows of a background that is not quite as stellar as one would expect for leaders of the LDS church...how should one react?

What happens if it appears to actually contradict the life style one would have expected of an LDS leader? What are non-Mormons supposed to think without further evidence?

That said, as I stated previously, LDS Mormons, as per the doctrine, should have the Holy Ghost to guide them. It can confirm to them whether the leader is chosen or not, and have that confirmation to rely on. They should not speak ill of their leaders (Local or General authorities) and support them in their righteous actions in the church. During his calling and time as an Apostle, I am unaware of anything Uchtdorf has done that is not righteous as in regards to LDS standards. In that, a member should not regard him as guilty.

My topic therefore, is far more general than focusing on an individual and I would not want to try to point out any specific individual General Authority in this fashion in regards to what I have stated. If one thinks that I am pointing to a specific individual, perhaps they should ask themselves why they feel that way. I am not intending on insulting any specific LDS leader, I apologize if you see it that way.

Unfortunately, I, as a Non-member do not have this confirmation ability that an LDS member should. AS such, I cannot rely on the feeling, but go on facts, personal experience, and other things which I have seen and do. In that regards, when one sees backgrounds in general that may not be consistent with how we have read leaders of the LDS church should be, it raises questions like the ones I have in this thread. However, this is specifically more from a non-member viewpoint I suppose, than an LDS one.

LDS members, I think, as per their teachings, should be able to pray about their leaders and receive confirmation by the Holy Spirit of their divine fore ordination and choice as righteous priesthood authorities here on this Earth.

I whole heartily believe that a non-member can receive a witness from the spirit regarding his chosen prophet and apostles. If an LDS child before age 8 (where they receive the spirit as a constant guide) can feel the spirit, any human is capable. When receiving a witness of truth you absolutely do not need to be a member of the LDS church. Therefore, facts are not all you have to rely on.

Just go to mormon channel and watch a rerun of a conference talk. Listen, watch, open your mind and clear distractions. See what happens.
The spirit is carried on the words and actions of TRUTH, if a man speaks truth the spirit is there. If you wish, pray to feel - so that you don't have to tear your mind judging actions of man (which render us all unworthly).

[Rachael]

Dash, you seem to be dancing around the matter of Pres. Uchtdorf having been a pilot and you having trust issues with pilots, all in contemplation of church leaders' integrity. I don't know that he hasn't done bad things, like pilots apparently tend to do. It doesn't seem like he's doing anything bad now, anyway. It doesn't bother me, in the least, that you wonder about such things. I'm quite sure nobody around here takes offense to your musings. I enjoy reading them, myself. I also imagine that Pres. Uchtdorf would speak frankly to you about his experience, but probably not confess to any specifics, as it's the Mormon way to always look forward and not dwell on past mistakes.

No, but you do seem to be fixated on the idea that Uchtdorf is the only LDS leader that was a pilot. This is not so. I have not singled him out and in fact stated that while he's served as an apostle I've seen nothing during that time that has broken the regulations of the church.

Is there a reason you are specifically using this to point to him? I have not, nor do I wish to see this thread construed as a slam on a specific LDS leader.

It COULD be useful however, to have him talk on such an issue directly as he probably has direct experiences in dealing with the LDS culture conflicting with aviation culture. His viewpoint in regards to LDS general authorities in that position (of which there have been several) as well as those in that position in our culture in general (as I think this situation is one that is becoming more and more prevalent, where there is growing hostility towards Mormons and all Christians to where, in the future it may be that you cannot get a promotion if you adhere to Christian or Mormon principles, or perhaps even get fired from your job for doing so) could be very enlightening in light of the current problems coming against those who are believers of Christ.

As he had a position in Aviation as you have so pointedly stated, he probably has a thing or two that could aid Members that face these problems on a day to day basis, as well as resolve the question that non-members may have in regards to members (and in this instance, not just in aviation, but any from what could be questionable backgrounds in many areas) who have to deal with very worldly things and yet are chosen as LDS leaders (both on a local and higher levels).

I apologize Dash. I'm the one who ASSumed it was about Uchdorft.

[Rachael]

I'm still confused at your conundrum that a LDS general authority (the only one is Uchtdorf) was a pilot. It strikes me as odd that you believe all pilots are immoral. Obviously you've had or have seen some bad behavior by pilots. Certainly you don't know the majority of pilots. You paint with a very broad brush and as you judge others, so shall you be judged.

I've heard about bad behavior performed by many catholic priests on innocent little boys. So many it seemed rampant. All catholic priests must therefor be pedophiles except maybe a few. See what I did there?

Actually that is incorrect. Just in the 12 there are 3 (well, I think 2 now) pilots. I'm not certain on the backgrounds of the new apostles, it is possible one of them also has a pilot background. You expand it out to other General Authorities and there are more. The pilot background in some part is actually part of many General Authorities...and more than the 70s if you include others (such as Area presidencies and such) into the mix as General Authorities.

I've mentioned the scandals in the Catholic church previously. I don't condone that either. However, if one wants to convert me to their church and say their leaders are chosen by the Lord, the onus is on them to prove such thing, and equalize how perceived sinful ways could correlate with church leadership. What does the LDS church leadership have that is more Holy and chosen then that of the Catholic? Onto the actual difficulty I have with the background, is a different element then the purely Catholic scandals.

However, the attitudes and actions of the aviation community may be hidden from many, but it's not a HUGE secret. In fact, if anything, all I'm doing is confirming that it actually is true (and mine is only one of many. Perhaps the testimonies of the many wives who also have seen it first hand would convince you more than a Catholic on a forum?). I doubt I'm the only one who has this as a stumbling block.

I've stopped short of some of the more serious accusations (there are those out there that will swear there is not a single commercial pilot out there that hasn't been involved in cheating) as I am relating more what I've seen rather than what others state. In my experience, all of them have chastity problems...every one. However, unlike the adage that many of the spouses, retirees, and others state, I haven't seen them all involved with cheating, but the moral ones are involved with what I'd consider pornography as something they've participated in at the very least.

There are many people that try to defend them and say it isn't true...especially newly wed spouses (then they seem to change their minds about 5 years later)...but I can't stress just how big this chastity problem is in the aviation community. Out of hundreds to thousands of pilots I have interacted with, I can only attest that I have met one that I really truly felt was Moral in every way. I have HEARD about others via second hand information and included them in prior posts. Personally though, ONLY ONE.

Would this offend some pilots...perhaps...until they realize that even if they consider themselves moral those magazines they pick up at the Airport to pass the time, the things they talk about in regards to the internet and TV all center around a form of pornography. And the conversations they have in the cockpit would either embarrass or enrage their wives/girlfriends. Well, the ones that are defending them of being all moral and such at least.

After that analysis, those same pilots would be offended that I would open up about the personal culture of the aviation community so openly, perhaps even consider me a traitor to the flyboy club. Currently it's a bad culture. You don't have to believe me or accept what I'm stating on it, but it's enough for me to say, those of us who have this type of exposure to the aviation culture and community are going to have this type of background as somewhat of a stumbling block.

PS: I should add, Uchtdorf only flew for around 10 years commercially, maybe 16 total for the AF times from what I hear. That still qualifies him as a pilot, but probably not the General Authority with the most hours...at least that would be my guess (I'm not privy to all the flight time or PIC time that each has).

He comes to mind because of making analogies with the gospel/ piloting in his GC talks almost every time

[Todd]

In my experience, all of them have chastity problems...every one.

Ok, that's enough Dash. You are out of line. I have been in the commercial/military aviation community as a pilot for the past 25 years. Yes, there are pilots out there who have committed, as you say, "immoral" acts, but so have a lot of other people in other professions.

I have flown with many righteous men and women over the decades who are honorable and avoid pornography like the plague. As a pilot I've witnessed countless miracles as a result of being close to the Holy Spirit -- as have they. I've seen how living a clean, pure life as a disciple of Christ has saved me multiple times in dangerous situations. Seen how being in tune with the Holy Spirit has given me direction in split second situations that has saved lives. For us, living a clean life isn't a luxury -- it's a necessity.

Aviation, by nature is inherently hazardous. Even small mistakes will kill you. You should know that. And as a commercial airline Captain, I'm responsible for millions of dollars and the lives of hundreds of souls -- every time I go up. Before I go to work each day I pray to God for protection and for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I rely on the Lord for protection. Why on earth would I disqualify that protection by polluting my soul with trash like pornography. Or fooling around? Or any of the many ridiculous things you have said. I, like many of my colleagues, live my life in such a way so we qualify for the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Yes... I know you explained how pilots were slack when it comes to God's laws, but very obedient to the laws of aviation. Well, pal. let me tell you that there are a zillion things that can go wrong and conspire against you when you are in the sky-- no matter how much you adhere to the books. That's one of the reasons why I live a life that qualifies me for the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost. It's the reason why my friends, in the profession, stay close to the spirit. Why they live chased lives. Why they are spiritually clean. And Dash -- there are MANY pilots who live this way.

I would trust the moral integrity of Elder Uchtdorf, Robert Oaks or any other GA who's been a career pilot over any other profession.

If you have any integrity you will stop this nonsense, since you have no real experience in the aviation world. Please PM me and I will be glad to continue this conversation in private.

[shadow]

Uchtdorf was a pilot by profession. There are a few other apostles who were pilots in the military 50+ yrs ago, but that wasn't their profession. I'm unaware of any GA's who were pilots by profession. Not that it matters. I disagree that all pilots are immoral womanizers who at a minimum are into porn. That's just silly. And yes, I personally know a few pilots.

[natasha]

Uchtdorf was a pilot by profession. There are a few other apostles who were pilots in the military 50+ yrs ago, but that wasn't their profession. I'm unaware of any GA's who were pilots by profession. Not that it matters. I disagree that all pilots are immoral womanizers who at a minimum are into porn. That's just silly. And yes, I personally know a few pilots.

I know a few, too, Shadow...the accusations are not well founded. Certainly in any profession there are scrupulous people...but to label them ALL is misrepresentation at it's best.