One item that bothers me a little and a stumbling block for me in regards to the LDS religion currently, Pilots.

[Dash jones]

It was pointed out in another thread about someone being a pilot previously. Now, don't take what I'm about to say in the wrong way, it's something that I seriously try to postulate.

I've flown as an amateur pilot for some time. I have a cousin who flew in the Air Force. I have another who flies commercially. All of us will say any pilot has morality problems. Many of them are cheaters (not all by any margin, but a high percentage of them) either literally physically, or at a minimum, emotionally. Those who don't constantly will talk about woman in certain ways (when they don't think others are listening, especially woman), and most have pornography problems if they aren't into the womanizing aspect, and are trying to be more moral.

This is one reason why I didn't go further into the piloting career. I've known ONE pilot that at least appeared to be moral (in that I couldn't see that they had a womanizing or pornography problem). This was admittedly a Mormon, but not one that had gotten that far into their career yet. This type of thing is part of the culture of being a pilot it seems, and those who don't brush arms that much seem to have problems. With my cousins in the fields, they can tell me of more than that, but they can count them on their fingers (one of the moral ones was actually a Baptist preacher in their spare time and NOT a Mormon). This isn't a good sign.

ALL of them, including my cousins and those who are moral have to put up with this type of culture overall, or lose respect, promotions typically, and maybe their job (depending on how set they are at voicing their problems with the culture and those acting out on it). I am not in the military, but of those in the military that I've heard of with personal anecdote, I've only heard the highest of morality (they might not lie in government and to superiors, but in regards to womanizing and such) was a major in the military, and Aircraft Captains in commercial.

Alcohol is also a MAJOR problem (but almost all I know will NOT drink when they are supposed to be sober, and will try to get the rest they need when they are supposed to, they seem to be Sticklers when it actually comes to the rules of flying...not doing that is worse than anything else overall) and they seem to love their drinks. This is actually a bigger problem with many who are NOT religious, but I find there ARE those who are religious where this actually isn't something they do.

I bring this up because when I hear about LDS leaders that have been pilots, the first thought that comes to mind isn't exactly a good one. Sure, their public lives may seem emaculate, but from my personal experience in the pilot culture, I really have to wonder how moral they actually are.

As I said, I have known VERY few pilots that don't have morality problems, and not a single one that I've known personally or talked to personally that would actually admit the culture that did NOT view pornography or were an alcoholic or both in the upper ranks.

These guys can be VERY charismatic, but you can see my worries/concerns in regards to LDS leadership. I'm not wanting to point any fingers specifically, but I am voicing one of the concerns I have with the LDS church (though, this applies to many religions. I have serious concerns with some of the Catholic Leadership at times, much more than the LDS ones, a lot of that has to do with some of their personal politics however).

Is it that people were just ignorant of these aspects of Piloting culture? Or is there some way that they feel that those who were leaders in the Pilot career field were somehow immune to this culture? It's not impossible, obviously (as I mentioned, I have met a FEW that were moral when you get to really know them and into what they are like in their private lives away from the public view), but overall, once you are immersed in the culture, either you back away somewhat (not so good on your career aspects) and though you keep it professional, you are no longer in the boy's club of fly together die together, OR you join up and it becomes a part of your life.

Perhaps this isn't a concern to those who are LDS(or perhaps there is ignorance there on the culture)...but for me, if I do ponder the LDS religion in regards to whether it's true or not, or it's leadership, this is probably a BIG stumbling block to me in view of some of their current leadership. Some of those whom are seen as epitome's of virtue...and it could be true, it's just as me who has seen the culture they came from...have a VERY hard time seeing how that could be without endless validations from those who personally know the people (and by that, those who flew with him, those that were under him, those that were around him in cities when NO one else like family members were...).

Edit: For those who are wondering, I wouldn't consider my cousins moral either...just for the answer to that question. I know them pretty well though, and they are quite candid about the culture and experience in their own lives. As I stated, this was a HUGE reason for me not to go further into the field myself.

[rewcox]

It was pointed out in another thread about someone being a pilot previously. Now, don't take what I'm about to say in the wrong way, it's something that I seriously try to postulate.

Dash, what did Jesus's apostles do for living before becoming the apostles? What did Matthew do? What about Saul?

My first real job was a roughneck, working on drilling rigs. I heard lots of stuff there. Unfortunately I hear way to much "f" in the business office. And there sure are plenty of stories of people hooking up.

[Dash jones]

Most were fisherman. You also had a tax collector, but we don't know all of their occupations.

A Similar occupation I suppose would not be fisherman in those days, but that of a Roman Naval officer, or that of a Tribune stationed in a foreign land. I believe Cornelius (later mentioned, who I think was a Centurion) would be the closest in terms of occupation thought that would be more to the typical military officer today rather than one that is a pilot.

Another, perhaps with the sort of reputation would be that of King Herod or those that were in his culture and his court being called as apostles.

However, they were not called as apostles. The apostles overall tended from more meager backgrounds, OR despised backgrounds (that of a tax collector, that of a rogue/thief possibly if one thinks that Judas's story is more than just that of his role in the apostles).

[iWriteStuff]

Funny story - my first stake president growing up was a pilot. Wife, ten kids, great father. Then he retired, got released aaaaaaand....

Became the president of the Seattle Temple.

Turns out not all pilots are bad, and not all LDS pilots follow the same morality path as their cohorts. As per other career paths, I would say the more conscientious Mormons avoid the questionable ones. But I can't really speak to that for others, only so far as to say I quit one career path and started over with my schooling to pursue a different one - one that I found made it easier to keep my covenants.

[bornfree]

It was pointed out in another thread about someone being a pilot previously. Now, don't take what I'm about to say in the wrong way, it's something that I seriously try to postulate.

I've flown as an amateur pilot for some time. I have a cousin who flew in the Air Force. I have another who flies commercially. All of us will say any pilot has morality problems. Many of them are cheaters (not all by any margin, but a high percentage of them) either literally physically, or at a minimum, emotionally. Those who don't constantly will talk about woman in certain ways (when they don't think others are listening, especially woman), and most have pornography problems if they aren't into the womanizing aspect, and are trying to be more moral.

This is one reason why I didn't go further into the piloting career. I've known ONE pilot that at least appeared to be moral (in that I couldn't see that they had a womanizing or pornography problem). This was admittedly a Mormon, but not one that had gotten that far into their career yet. This type of thing is part of the culture of being a pilot it seems, and those who don't brush arms that much seem to have problems. With my cousins in the fields, they can tell me of more than that, but they can count them on their fingers (one of the moral ones was actually a Baptist preacher in their spare time and NOT a Mormon). This isn't a good sign.

ALL of them, including my cousins and those who are moral have to put up with this type of culture overall, or lose respect, promotions typically, and maybe their job (depending on how set they are at voicing their problems with the culture and those acting out on it). I am not in the military, but of those in the military that I've heard of with personal anecdote, I've only heard the highest of morality (they might not lie in government and to superiors, but in regards to womanizing and such) was a major in the military, and Aircraft Captains in commercial.

Alcohol is also a MAJOR problem (but almost all I know will NOT drink when they are supposed to be sober, and will try to get the rest they need when they are supposed to, they seem to be Sticklers when it actually comes to the rules of flying...not doing that is worse than anything else overall) and they seem to love their drinks. This is actually a bigger problem with many who are NOT religious, but I find there ARE those who are religious where this actually isn't something they do.

I bring this up because when I hear about LDS leaders that have been pilots, the first thought that comes to mind isn't exactly a good one. Sure, their public lives may seem emaculate, but from my personal experience in the pilot culture, I really have to wonder how moral they actually are.

As I said, I have known VERY few pilots that don't have morality problems, and not a single one that I've known personally or talked to personally that would actually admit the culture that did NOT view pornography or were an alcoholic or both in the upper ranks.

These guys can be VERY charismatic, but you can see my worries/concerns in regards to LDS leadership. I'm not wanting to point any fingers specifically, but I am voicing one of the concerns I have with the LDS church (though, this applies to many religions. I have serious concerns with some of the Catholic Leadership at times, much more than the LDS ones, a lot of that has to do with some of their personal politics however).

Is it that people were just ignorant of these aspects of Piloting culture? Or is there some way that they feel that those who were leaders in the Pilot career field were somehow immune to this culture? It's not impossible, obviously (as I mentioned, I have met a FEW that were moral when you get to really know them and into what they are like in their private lives away from the public view), but overall, once you are immersed in the culture, either you back away somewhat (not so good on your career aspects) and though you keep it professional, you are no longer in the boy's club of fly together die together, OR you join up and it becomes a part of your life.

Perhaps this isn't a concern to those who are LDS(or perhaps there is ignorance there on the culture)...but for me, if I do ponder the LDS religion in regards to whether it's true or not, or it's leadership, this is probably a BIG stumbling block to me in view of some of their current leadership. Some of those whom are seen as epitome's of virtue...and it could be true, it's just as me who has seen the culture they came from...have a VERY hard time seeing how that could be without endless validations from those who personally know the people (and by that, those who flew with him, those that were under him, those that were around him in cities when NO one else like family members were...).

Edit: For those who are wondering, I wouldn't consider my cousins moral either...just for the answer to that question. I know them pretty well though, and they are quite candid about the culture and experience in their own lives. As I stated, this was a HUGE reason for me not to go further into the field myself.

This post baffles me somewhat. I like your posts and spirit, they are really amazing and it seems Mormons and Catholics have a lot in common,
that being they are good people. What I don't understand is, what aspect of life will you find the purity of culture you are looking for? I haven't found it, these kind of actions are common in every profession, workplace, among Mormon's, Catholics and whatever church you want to mention.
When one puts his focus on one profession or religion, a thousand comments could come back about an instance where they were disappointed in someone who belonged to a certain church and acted in a certain manner. I hope you get what I'm saying, and in a nice way. Mentioning someone who in a previous post was a former pilot, and then posting this, and then asking us not to take it the wrong way? Really?

[skmo]

One of my best friends growing up is a pilot. He's a straight and clean as can be. My nephew is a pilot for SkyWest, and although he's inactive, he doesn't drink at all and he's in a committed relationship. His sister, my niece is also a commercial pilot and she's very proper and straight as an arrow. I - the school teacher in the family - am the one who got excommunicated.

[Melissa]

Isint every male dominated profession like this? Anymore, isint the world like this? And yes, the military is very much like this and because of the nature of commitments, the lower ranks have NO choice sometimes to be around filth. Vulgar comments and disrespectful talk is everywhere even on your child's play ground.

On a military base, I found a note on the ground in the housing playground that looked like an 8 year old wrote it asking a girl to have sex with him. Then I found a condom wrapper in the tunnel slide. So, ya...it's a very perverse culture all the way down to the children.

Seriously it feels like, being a woman, I can not do anything without creeps staring or commenting in an uncomfortable manner.

There are good people everywhere and I hope in every profession but it's becoming more casual at workplaces with regards to acting "unprofessional". And honestly women entering the workplace in every profession has not made anything better because alot of them have to play the games and join in or instigate things themselves.

The world is on edge....we have gone too far to return. A reset will be needed to fix this delusional mindset the world has. It's truly sad that people cannot have respect for even the most special and meaningfull things in life.

As I am getting older, 30s, I am noticing more and more men who have no human respect for women. Don't know what caused that but no doubt it is a reason so many men see no problem breaking their marriage vows. Lots of men view women as servants - unfortunately even in the church.

[Lizzy60]

Not to worry -- the LDS Church has a very comprehensive vetting procedure for all men called to upper level positions. That's one advantage of only calling men of a certain age to be a General Authority. There has been a relatively long period of time and service in the Church before these men are trusted with a high-level position.

[Dash jones]

This culture is NOT something wives and family typically know about. You find out about it when you are flying regularly as a pilot. They call it having to be in the culture, something that only the cockpit shares. It is down and out vulgur. Just because someone outwardly appears as nice and good...all those stories about pilots being womanizers and immoral...I can confirm...it is ALL TRUE.

It's not that I'm expecting perfection...but of all the professions I have looked into or participated in, the most vile of cultures was piloting. When not at home, it was not unusual for them to go to the local strip joint (and to this day I have never been in one), that includes the religious ones as well.

I understand he higher one goes, the more pervasive this gets. It would be as if you suddenly got someone from the Porn industry called to be a church leader. No, pilots are NOT in the Porn industry, but I have never seen a profession that supports it like they do. Not everyone in that industry is evil either, and some try to be moral...but it's going to be dang hard to find one that is as clean as elsewhere. The difference is that the piloting club hides it far better than others, and to many seems very respectable (and as I said, when it comes to the rules of the sky, most are VERY strict and stringent, but in their personal lives...it really is pretty bad. People have NO idea what goes on when the pilots are not at their home city, or the types of conversations that occur in the cockpit).

Ironically in piloting it gets worse the higher one gets from what I've seen. It's probably easier for the local pilot to be moral than the higher level ones and the bigger commercial ones. I can be pretty tolerant in what I can stand (ever see how some medical students or CEOs act at times...that can be pretty blatantly bad as well...but that's NOTHING compared to what I've seen in the aviation world).

I guess you could say, the reason it is a stumbing block and why I bring it up, is if you knew someone was into some rather serious sins as regarding what LDS believe...and you KNEW that those people were becoming that religions leaders, how would you deal with it? This is why it is such a hard stumbling block for me...I know the community (or what it was a few years ago) and the type of person that typically is in it and how they act, how the culture is. I was immersed in it for a while and luckily got out of it.

Knowing the leaders of these communities (who as I said, are very strictly adherent to the rules of flying, typically the higher you are, the more obedient you are to the rules of the sky at least from what I've seen in that light), it can be very hard to not wonder how in the world someone got to be a church leader from it...other than that the profession is respected (a lot because in worldly terms, making a lot of money and dealing with a lot of stress is what garners respect, not what your morals otherwise are).

I'm not trying to persecute or bad mouth the LDS church, but bringing up a very real concern of mine. It's like as Missionaries ask...what my concerns are...this is one I'm always hesitant to bring up with them as they don't need to have their young minds troubled in this aspect. However, I also know normally they'll go back to the basics of praying and reading the Book of Mormon.

However, this has nothing to do with the fundamental principles of those items, but of certain leaders today. Even if by some miracle I had a testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith, this one issue could very strongly persuade me to not join the LDS church.

The best parallel is if you knew the owner of a strip club or something to that effect, or knew a bunch of people or a club that frequently went to such places, supported it fully and wholly, and a few of those were called to be church leaders (of any church). Maybe you wouldn't struggle with that as a concept, but it is something that I struggle with in understanding such. Surely the church is not wholly ignorant of this culture, it's prominent enough (though hidden) that it's become almost a stereotype (actually it IS a stereotype, but I can attest, there really IS a reason for that stereotype).

So, as I said, a personal stumbling block for me. One that I struggle to understand, but can't. I probably would NOT have a problem if they brought out numerous (and I mean numerous) testimonials from close workers of that leader (not family members, as I said, if they've stayed married or have not had problems or counseling, it normally means that member has been either extremely charismatic in convincing them of certain things, OR kept it hidden VERY well) that state that this person never did any of the things that is typical of the culture. It IS possible, but in every instance, I either have seen it for myself, OR had those who are close workers of that person tell me of their moral fiber and character.

For those who in the culture, typically I see that their wives and family have the highest regard and have NO idea what happens outside of the home with regards to their pilot companions. It isn't only specific to the LDS church, I've known some that look at the dirty magazines, talk the talk, and do everything but physically cheat who are deacons (not like LDS deacons, these are positions in other churches normally held by those respectable in those religions) and Elders in their own churches.

It's just in the LDS church I've seen them elevated to the highest positions and if I were a member, it would bother me unless I had something else to go on beyond simply that they are a member. I know the community too well to merely trust that these were good guys who were untouched by the immorality inherent with the culture.

So, yes, perhaps a major stumbling block on my part.

[Dash jones]

Not to worry -- the LDS Church has a very comprehensive vetting procedure for all men called to upper level positions. That's one advantage of only calling men of a certain age to be a General Authority. There has been a relatively long period of time and service in the Church before these men are trusted with a high-level position.

What is the vetting process and what does it entail?

I've known a few of these people personally...I'm wondering if the vetting process would go hand in hand with my own experience?

(There IS one man I met only circumstantially a few times, but who I WILL vouch for that was LDS and a leader. One of the BEST men I ever knew was in the military a LONG time ago, and later did other things in life, eventually becoming an LDS leader. He was down and out one of the most compassionate people I have EVER met and associated occasionally with. That was L. Tom Perry. I will say he has my respect in all sorts of ways. Personally speaking, he was of excellent character).

Also, sorry if the questions seem on the rougher side. As I said awhile ago, one reason for joining the forums was to hopefully ask questions which are things that missionaries and others avoid answering directly when I ask, but which I have in regards to the LDS religion and in many cases probably are much tougher than what some others may bring up. It's not to offend at all, but to try to get clarifications and clear up things in regards to what I am learning about Mormonism. Many of the questions I have are things that I have not been able to get clear answers to from others.

[Melissa]

Didn't the church come out recently and say that we need to be careful about doing jobs that require lots of out of town time. They advised against it

[Dash jones]

Didn't the church come out recently and say that we need to be careful about doing jobs that require lots of out of town time. They advised against it

I didn't catch that one. That would make sense for many, though. It definitely helps one avoid temptation (regardless of what profession one is in).

[Rachael]

Is this about D. F. Uchdorft?

[Melissa]

Didn't the church come out recently and say that we need to be careful about doing jobs that require lots of out of town time. They advised against it

I didn't catch that one. That would make sense for many, though. It definitely helps one avoid temptation (regardless of what profession one is in).

Definately. The world is very enticing and luring and puts it's stuff out everywhere to capture as many as possible. Remember the story/short video of the rock climber who faced the cliff alone and with no gear and fell? Found on mormon channel.

We need support in life and no one will make it alone. If you spend most of your time away and alone from the church, your spouse, parents, family, whatever....then you will not have that support and will ultimately fall.

There are few things my husband suggests or tells me about that I outright say NO to and one was a job he saw as a good opportunity but required much travel with overnight stays. He was excited about the job but having just heard about the advice to not take those kind of jobs I just said no, that job won't work for us. Of course I explained myself and he agreed that it would be best not to cause any extra stress on the family.

[Rachael]

There are a lot more stumbling blocks than him. He's probably not into marrying other men's wives or blood atonement..

[shadow]

To insinuate that Uchtdorf, the LDS church leader who was a pilot, was immoral because he was a pilot is off base. Waaay off base.

[Rachael]

Wow I agree with shadow. God is great!

[zionminded]

I don't think you'll see that pilots have moral problems anymore than another profession. You might have some visibility that changes your objectivity, but you'll see pornography, sex and alcohol abuse in attorneys, doctors, teachers, coaches, secretaries and more.

I'm a therapist.. trust me, pilots don't have anything special here.

[Todd]

It was pointed out in another thread about someone being a pilot previously. Now, don't take what I'm about to say in the wrong way, it's something that I seriously try to postulate.

I've flown as an amateur pilot for some time. I have a cousin who flew in the Air Force. I have another who flies commercially. All of us will say any pilot has morality problems. Many of them are cheaters (not all by any margin, but a high percentage of them) either literally physically, or at a minimum, emotionally. Those who don't constantly will talk about woman in certain ways (when they don't think others are listening, especially woman), and most have pornography problems if they aren't into the womanizing aspect, and are trying to be more moral.

This is one reason why I didn't go further into the piloting career. I've known ONE pilot that at least appeared to be moral (in that I couldn't see that they had a womanizing or pornography problem). This was admittedly a Mormon, but not one that had gotten that far into their career yet. This type of thing is part of the culture of being a pilot it seems, and those who don't brush arms that much seem to have problems. With my cousins in the fields, they can tell me of more than that, but they can count them on their fingers (one of the moral ones was actually a Baptist preacher in their spare time and NOT a Mormon). This isn't a good sign.

ALL of them, including my cousins and those who are moral have to put up with this type of culture overall, or lose respect, promotions typically, and maybe their job (depending on how set they are at voicing their problems with the culture and those acting out on it). I am not in the military, but of those in the military that I've heard of with personal anecdote, I've only heard the highest of morality (they might not lie in government and to superiors, but in regards to womanizing and such) was a major in the military, and Aircraft Captains in commercial.

Alcohol is also a MAJOR problem (but almost all I know will NOT drink when they are supposed to be sober, and will try to get the rest they need when they are supposed to, they seem to be Sticklers when it actually comes to the rules of flying...not doing that is worse than anything else overall) and they seem to love their drinks. This is actually a bigger problem with many who are NOT religious, but I find there ARE those who are religious where this actually isn't something they do.

I bring this up because when I hear about LDS leaders that have been pilots, the first thought that comes to mind isn't exactly a good one. Sure, their public lives may seem emaculate, but from my personal experience in the pilot culture, I really have to wonder how moral they actually are.

As I said, I have known VERY few pilots that don't have morality problems, and not a single one that I've known personally or talked to personally that would actually admit the culture that did NOT view pornography or were an alcoholic or both in the upper ranks.

These guys can be VERY charismatic, but you can see my worries/concerns in regards to LDS leadership. I'm not wanting to point any fingers specifically, but I am voicing one of the concerns I have with the LDS church (though, this applies to many religions. I have serious concerns with some of the Catholic Leadership at times, much more than the LDS ones, a lot of that has to do with some of their personal politics however).

Is it that people were just ignorant of these aspects of Piloting culture? Or is there some way that they feel that those who were leaders in the Pilot career field were somehow immune to this culture? It's not impossible, obviously (as I mentioned, I have met a FEW that were moral when you get to really know them and into what they are like in their private lives away from the public view), but overall, once you are immersed in the culture, either you back away somewhat (not so good on your career aspects) and though you keep it professional, you are no longer in the boy's club of fly together die together, OR you join up and it becomes a part of your life.

Perhaps this isn't a concern to those who are LDS(or perhaps there is ignorance there on the culture)...but for me, if I do ponder the LDS religion in regards to whether it's true or not, or it's leadership, this is probably a BIG stumbling block to me in view of some of their current leadership. Some of those whom are seen as epitome's of virtue...and it could be true, it's just as me who has seen the culture they came from...have a VERY hard time seeing how that could be without endless validations from those who personally know the people (and by that, those who flew with him, those that were under him, those that were around him in cities when NO one else like family members were...).

Edit: For those who are wondering, I wouldn't consider my cousins moral either...just for the answer to that question. I know them pretty well though, and they are quite candid about the culture and experience in their own lives. As I stated, this was a HUGE reason for me not to go further into the field myself.

Welp. Guess I'm going straight to hell.

[Dash jones]

To insinuate that Uchtdorf, the LDS church leader who was a pilot, was immoral because he was a pilot is off base. Waaay off base.

I made it intentionally NOT pointing towards a specific GA. My item is NOT to bad mouth specific leaders of the LDS church, but to point out a problem I have. My goal isn't to make LDS members bad mouth their leaders (which I think is forbidden for LDS members to do) at all. It is to find a resolution to a difficulty I have in regards to understanding the LDS church.

I DO know some personally, but even with those, the only ones I'll name personally are those that I can say good things about (for example, the L. Tom Perry example I have above).

However, when you know of sins that others have done, and they are called as a Leader of a church...it can be something that is rather hard to figure out.

For example, with some of the other pilots I have known, they have been involved with some pretty immoral actions but become deacons and elders in their churches (non-LDS protestant). I can only figure this happens because their churches are not familiar with aviation culture nor with what those pilots are doing when not at home or when flying.

I suppose this could be a reason when they call a leader, they ask if anyone is opposed and then will ask for specific items if someone says they are. It can help avoid this entire mess where one knows of the leader having been involved with such things later, at least if anyone is in the know of such things. When leaders have such things in their backgrounds, it can be a HUGE stumbling block for those who do know about it.

This is a specific one that I have problems with. I suppose it could be viewed as the forgiveness of the Lord (but then, why not chose another that is far more worthy or has a background that is far less questionable with those in the know). In that instance, I would suppose that could be a good thing for their associates and those I know of a similar background and problems. If such a one could be forgiven of such things and then elevated to a high ranking leader, perhaps those others who also have such things could also have the same forgiveness?

I would be reminded of the woman caught in adultery...but the problem is that she wasn't then promoted to church leader. Or another would be Judas, but his story didn't turn out all that great either. Then there is the story of Judah, which I suppose could be representative.

It's not that I'm pointing to a specific GA's sins, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get through why the LDS church would ever have someone with a questionable background without clearing it up first. They could publically have testimonials that would vouch that someone was NOT a participant in such a culture. Someone mentioned a vetting service, if that is truly a good vetting service, than what am I missing with all this?

I was teased for being such a moral person when I was looking into aviation, and not only was I a Catholic (who have slightly looser standards than Mormons do in some areas such as alcohol) I hadn't even gotten that high. Looking at what it was like from the inside, I would say it is nigh impossible to be of good moral character in that society...not impossible, but NIGH impossible (and as I have said, I have known of a few that were moral). This is from an insider perspective though...before that I probably would have been as ignorant as anyone else. It is VERY hidden in many ways from those who are not in the cockpit or in the travel. AT times with some, it was very difficult to try avoiding what I would view as very personal discussions.

And yes, as I said, it is a stumbling block for me in this regards...I really don't have the answer and haven't really found any who have been able to answer it for me.

[rewcox]

You wouldn't have been able to handle either Alma the Elder, or his son Alma. Both were wicked before repenting and changing.

To insinuate that Uchtdorf, the LDS church leader who was a pilot, was immoral because he was a pilot is off base. Waaay off base.

I made it intentionally NOT pointing towards a specific GA. My item is NOT to bad mouth specific leaders of the LDS church, but to point out a problem I have. My goal isn't to make LDS members bad mouth their leaders (which I think is forbidden for LDS members to do) at all. It is to find a resolution to a difficulty I have in regards to understanding the LDS church.

I DO know some personally, but even with those, the only ones I'll name personally are those that I can say good things about (for example, the L. Tom Perry example I have above).

However, when you know of sins that others have done, and they are called as a Leader of a church...it can be something that is rather hard to figure out.

For example, with some of the other pilots I have known, they have been involved with some pretty immoral actions but become deacons and elders in their churches (non-LDS protestant). I can only figure this happens because their churches are not familiar with aviation culture nor with what those pilots are doing when not at home or when flying.

I suppose this could be a reason when they call a leader, they ask if anyone is opposed and then will ask for specific items if someone says they are. It can help avoid this entire mess where one knows of the leader having been involved with such things later, at least if anyone is in the know of such things. When leaders have such things in their backgrounds, it can be a HUGE stumbling block for those who do know about it.

This is a specific one that I have problems with. I suppose it could be viewed as the forgiveness of the Lord (but then, why not chose another that is far more worthy or has a background that is far less questionable with those in the know). In that instance, I would suppose that could be a good thing for their associates and those I know of a similar background and problems. If such a one could be forgiven of such things and then elevated to a high ranking leader, perhaps those others who also have such things could also have the same forgiveness?

I would be reminded of the woman caught in adultery...but the problem is that she wasn't then promoted to church leader. Or another would be Judas, but his story didn't turn out all that great either. Then there is the story of Judah, which I suppose could be representative.

It's not that I'm pointing to a specific GA's sins, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get through why the LDS church would ever have someone with a questionable background without clearing it up first. They could publically have testimonials that would vouch that someone was NOT a participant in such a culture. Someone mentioned a vetting service, if that is truly a good vetting service, than what am I missing with all this?

I was teased for being such a moral person when I was looking into aviation, and not only was I a Catholic (who have slightly looser standards than Mormons do in some areas such as alcohol) I hadn't even gotten that high. Looking at what it was like from the inside, I would say it is nigh impossible to be of good moral character in that society...not impossible, but NIGH impossible (and as I have said, I have known of a few that were moral). This is from an insider perspective though...before that I probably would have been as ignorant as anyone else. It is VERY hidden in many ways from those who are not in the cockpit or in the travel. AT times with some, it was very difficult to try avoiding what I would view as very personal discussions.

And yes, as I said, it is a stumbling block for me in this regards...I really don't have the answer and haven't really found any who have been able to answer it for me.

[bornfree]

You wouldn't have been able to handle either Alma the Elder, or his son Alma. Both were wicked before repenting and changing.

And what about Saul/Paul. The Lord went to him and asked why he persecuted the Christians? Paul went on to be a great man and Christian. What we're saying Dash, is that that the Lord said He will judge who He will, but we are to forgive. I feel bad that these people were such bad examples to you, they will answer for it, the gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, the people aren't, but most are striving to be the best they can be.
Born Free wrote;
DASH, this is one of my favorite experiences.We had a man in our neighborhood who openly hated Mormons. The things he would say were so hurtful, we didn't let it affect us, we just tried to be good neighbors. I always teased him out of it, he liked to laugh. One Sunday, there he was at church, I went over and gave him a big hug! He said his Mother, in another city was very sick, and that not one member of her church ( not the LDS church) came to help her, but the Mormon's brought in meals, shoveled snow off her sidewalk, took her to her Dr. appts, and cared for her until she was better. He was so grateful and apologized for the things he had said. He had tattoos all over him and a earring in one ear, but a white shirt and tie. Everybody accepted him. Slowly the earring was gone, and his countenance changed. I will never forget the first time he prayed in sacrament meeting, it wasn't the usual prayer, he cried and expressed his love for all of us. God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.

To insinuate that Uchtdorf, the LDS church leader who was a pilot, was immoral because he was a pilot is off base. Waaay off base.

I made it intentionally NOT pointing towards a specific GA. My item is NOT to bad mouth specific leaders of the LDS church, but to point out a problem I have. My goal isn't to make LDS members bad mouth their leaders (which I think is forbidden for LDS members to do) at all. It is to find a resolution to a difficulty I have in regards to understanding the LDS church.

I DO know some personally, but even with those, the only ones I'll name personally are those that I can say good things about (for example, the L. Tom Perry example I have above).

However, when you know of sins that others have done, and they are called as a Leader of a church...it can be something that is rather hard to figure out.

For example, with some of the other pilots I have known, they have been involved with some pretty immoral actions but become deacons and elders in their churches (non-LDS protestant). I can only figure this happens because their churches are not familiar with aviation culture nor with what those pilots are doing when not at home or when flying.

I suppose this could be a reason when they call a leader, they ask if anyone is opposed and then will ask for specific items if someone says they are. It can help avoid this entire mess where one knows of the leader having been involved with such things later, at least if anyone is in the know of such things. When leaders have such things in their backgrounds, it can be a HUGE stumbling block for those who do know about it.

This is a specific one that I have problems with. I suppose it could be viewed as the forgiveness of the Lord (but then, why not chose another that is far more worthy or has a background that is far less questionable with those in the know). In that instance, I would suppose that could be a good thing for their associates and those I know of a similar background and problems. If such a one could be forgiven of such things and then elevated to a high ranking leader, perhaps those others who also have such things could also have the same forgiveness?

I would be reminded of the woman caught in adultery...but the problem is that she wasn't then promoted to church leader. Or another would be Judas, but his story didn't turn out all that great either. Then there is the story of Judah, which I suppose could be representative.

It's not that I'm pointing to a specific GA's sins, that's not what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to get through why the LDS church would ever have someone with a questionable background without clearing it up first. They could publically have testimonials that would vouch that someone was NOT a participant in such a culture. Someone mentioned a vetting service, if that is truly a good vetting service, than what am I missing with all this?

I was teased for being such a moral person when I was looking into aviation, and not only was I a Catholic (who have slightly looser standards than Mormons do in some areas such as alcohol) I hadn't even gotten that high. Looking at what it was like from the inside, I would say it is nigh impossible to be of good moral character in that society...not impossible, but NIGH impossible (and as I have said, I have known of a few that were moral). This is from an insider perspective though...before that I probably would have been as ignorant as anyone else. It is VERY hidden in many ways from those who are not in the cockpit or in the travel. AT times with some, it was very difficult to try avoiding what I would view as very personal discussions.

And yes, as I said, it is a stumbling block for me in this regards...I really don't have the answer and haven't really found any who have been able to answer it for me.

[Dash jones]

You wouldn't have been able to handle either Alma the Elder, or his son Alma. Both were wicked before repenting and changing.

And what about Saul/Paul. The Lord went to him and asked why he persecuted the Christians? Paul went on to be a great man and Christian. What we're saying Dash, is that that the Lord said He will judge who He will, but we are to forgive. I feel bad that these people were such bad examples to you, they will answer for it, the gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect, the people aren't, but most are striving to be the best they can be.
Born Free wrote;
DASH, this is one of my favorite experiences.We had a man in our neighborhood who openly hated Mormons. The things he would say were so hurtful, we didn't let it affect us, we just tried to be good neighbors. I always teased him out of it, he liked to laugh. One Sunday, there he was at church, I went over and gave him a big hug! He said his Mother, in another city was very sick, and that not one member of her church ( not the LDS church) came to help her, but the Mormon's brought in meals, shoveled snow off her sidewalk, took her to her Dr. appts, and cared for her until she was better. He was so grateful and apologized for the things he had said. He had tattoos all over him and a earring in one ear, but a white shirt and tie. Everybody accepted him. Slowly the earring was gone, and his countenance changed. I will never forget the first time he prayed in sacrament meeting, it wasn't the usual prayer, he cried and expressed his love for all of us. God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to perform.

This is a true point.

Alma the Elder changed, and because he changed he faced a trial much more severe than most of the rich men that are called as General Authorities and much more than any I might have problems with. He was cast out from the people, lived in what was probably abject poverty while preaching the gospel, and had to hide from the patrols of a wicked king. He then converted some people and had the still remain in hiding until finally they had to flee for their lives. Then, after having fled they were captured by yet another enemy who put terrible burdens on them, used them as basically slaves, and tried to forbid them to worship and punished them if they did. Finally, after all that he escaped and when he came to Zarahemla, was made a leader in the church by the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator at that time who was Mosiah.

I'd say he had a huge trial after what he had done.

Alma the Younger probably also had grievous sin. He then saw an angel and was cast down into the abject depths of terror of what he had done for days. I would say the Book of Mormon indicates that his conversion was well known and not kept a secret.

I have not heard of this happening to any of the General Authorities that I have difficulties with their backgrounds, and it probably has not been broadcast like Alma the Younger and the Sons of Mosiah...but if such a thing happened and we knew about it (and remember, Alma bore his testimony of it as well, so we should know about it via a testimony being borne) yes, that would be far more than enough.

either of those cases would not really be a problem for me, one having their testimony proven and their true faith shown by fire, and the other bearing their testimony of the remarkable change (from explaining how depraved he was prior to it, to how it changed him and how he is now trying to repair that).

Even a King Lamoni situation would be something I could accept. Adding in regards to Paul, it is similar to Alma the Younger, that too would be acceptable. Paul bore his testimony of the experience, and personally spoke about it.

A sons of Samuel and their friends and associates situation...it is a LOT harder to accept. However, they were probably more open in their sins and difficulties overall rather than those today in Leadership positions that have sins they are covering up.

Part of it is the sin, but part of it isn't showing that either they somehow avoided it OR that they repented of it, changed, and have been converted (ala, your Alma the Younger or Paul examples). I think if you get down to it, that's what is REALLY the big part in regards to all of it.

[Melissa]

I think that if we knew the personal life histories (behind the scenes stuff like your aviation examples) of almost everyone, we would have a hard time sorting it out in our heads.

Interesting, we don't have such a problem when an investigator joins the church with past sins but when a member commits sins it seems we label them with a label that won't ever be removed. If someone lived a life of sin and immorality or partook of a culture where it was rampant but changed their ways and most importantly changed their heart, then they literally are a new creature from what they used to be and don't even see things the same anymore.

A changed heart is a new man. Memories remain for a season then they fade to feelings and then to lessons learned. Memories do fade and people do change. If it weren't so, God would accept none of us because we all have done offensive things that he is very well aware of.

If LDS pilots have been exposed or even partook to any degree in that mentality (even if just accepting it by not objecting) then that is on them and God knows, and hopefully they see the truth and steer clear and become good influences.

Some people who have conquered their flesh (usually by struggle and pain) can be around trash and garbage and have it not affect them to a degree that it causes immoral thoughts within them. As a person matures spiritually and even physically, the tantalizing nature of pornography and other selfish indulgences loose their appeal and literally are not viewed the same as a person who is still struggling to conquer their personal interest and weaknesses in that area.

For a comparison think of a season doctor treating the human body vs. A teenager or young adult full of immaturity and curiosity. One can see the body as something that is amazing and see its functions and it's operations and the other is focused on this or that detail wondering but never actually going past the surface.

The difference can be that great between people and we often can see that in others personalities.

[shadow]

Being a pilot doesn't equal being immoral.