"Fighting Against The Church"

[Zathura]

You used 7 to prove that it was through their faith in King Benjamin that they were born of God.
Verse 7 says nothing of King Benjamin, it says they had faith In Jesus.
Read verse 4 slowly. It wasn't thr King that brought them great knowledge, it was their faith that brought them great knowledge.

I know that leaders are necessary, God calls them. I never disputed that.

Being born of God is very clear. You must have faith in Jesus and become broken hearted and contrite. Period.

If you want a testimony of leaders, that can come before, after, or never.

To say that you must have faith in leaders in order to be born again is to believe that you need more than Jesus to be saved, which is not true

[rewcox]

If you want a testimony of leaders, that can come before, after, or never.

To say that you must have faith in leaders in order to be born again is to believe that you need more than Jesus to be saved, which is not true

Jesus save, but he uses servants. Joseph Smith, on down to Thomas S. Monson. Why you want to ignore them is beyond me. You only have the priesthood because of leaders. You said your mission president told you about being born again. He received that calling from the leaders.

[bornfree]

You used 7 to prove that it was through their faith in King Benjamin that they were born of God.
Verse 7 says nothing of King Benjamin, it says they had faith In Jesus.
Read verse 4 slowly. It wasn't thr King that brought them great knowledge, it was their faith that brought them great knowledge.

I know that leaders are necessary, God calls them. I never disputed that.

Being born of God is very clear. You must have faith in Jesus and become broken hearted and contrite. Period.

If you want a testimony of leaders, that can come before, after, or never.

To say that you must have faith in leaders in order to be born again is to believe that you need more than Jesus to be saved, which is not true

All through the ages the Lord has given His people Prophets. He speaks His will through them. How is that relying on more than Jesus to be saved?
That is relying on Jesus to be saved. Faith in His Prophet IS faith in Jesus Christ.

King Benjamin asked if they believed his words, their faith in a living Prophet to know the will of God, brought them great knowledge.
THAT IS THE TRUTH!

[Zathura]

You used 7 to prove that it was through their faith in King Benjamin that they were born of God.
Verse 7 says nothing of King Benjamin, it says they had faith In Jesus.
Read verse 4 slowly. It wasn't thr King that brought them great knowledge, it was their faith that brought them great knowledge.

I know that leaders are necessary, God calls them. I never disputed that.

Being born of God is very clear. You must have faith in Jesus and become broken hearted and contrite. Period.

If you want a testimony of leaders, that can come before, after, or never.

To say that you must have faith in leaders in order to be born again is to believe that you need more than Jesus to be saved, which is not true

All through the ages the Lord has given His people Prophets. He speaks His will through them. How is that relying on more than Jesus to be saved?
That is relying on Jesus to be saved. Faith in His Prophet IS faith in Jesus Christ.

King Benjamin asked if they believed his words, their faith in a living Prophet to know the will of God, brought them great knowledge.
THAT IS THE TRUTH!

I agree completely with everything in this post except one part

Faith in a prophet is not faith in Jesus.
Faith in Jesus is faith in Jesus.

I invite you to ask your local leader if faith in a prophet = faith in Jesus.

[bornfree]

You used 7 to prove that it was through their faith in King Benjamin that they were born of God.
Verse 7 says nothing of King Benjamin, it says they had faith In Jesus.
Read verse 4 slowly. It wasn't thr King that brought them great knowledge, it was their faith that brought them great knowledge.

I know that leaders are necessary, God calls them. I never disputed that.

Being born of God is very clear. You must have faith in Jesus and become broken hearted and contrite. Period.

If you want a testimony of leaders, that can come before, after, or never.

To say that you must have faith in leaders in order to be born again is to believe that you need more than Jesus to be saved, which is not true

All through the ages the Lord has given His people Prophets. He speaks His will through them. How is that relying on more than Jesus to be saved?
That is relying on Jesus to be saved. Faith in His Prophet IS faith in Jesus Christ.

King Benjamin asked if they believed his words, their faith in a living Prophet to know the will of God, brought them great knowledge.
THAT IS THE TRUTH!

I agree completely with everything in this post except one part

Faith in a prophet is not faith in Jesus.
Faith in Jesus is faith in Jesus.

I invite you to ask your local leader if faith in a prophet = faith in Jesus.

I think we are in agreement on many things. Its ok to disagree, I can tell you have a lot of knowledge, I respect that. I don't need to ask a local leader, I already know. Thanks for the kind response! :ymhug:

[Zathura]

Ok then I appreciate the kindness

[BrotherOfMahonri]

I guess deep down, if I'm honest with myself, maybe I'm afraid that the men I truly sustain (and take pride in sustaining) as the Lord's modern apostles, are not quite as qualified to teach about Christ as the ancient apostles we read about in scripture because the modern prophets aren't as open with their spiritual experiences as Jacob and Nephi.

I guess this is a plea to help me be more confident in the brethren.

I'm in this same place brother. I'm currently seeking a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost that they are Prophets as Nephi and Jaco were.

It's not a bad thing to have your faith shaken, it causes you to reach out to God for help, he will grab your hand and give you the object of your desires

It seems you are not alone - just an FYI - my honesty as you have courageously stated yours - caused me to be unworthy (according to the manuals of man) of worshipping God in his temple for having faith they are called and who they claim to be but no witness as of yet. Seek the Lord, ignore broken records like rewcox, as his answers lack the spirit in my view but can definitely quote you to death

Yes, BofM's spirit will take you out of the church. Is that what you want?

rewcoxs spirit calls Joseph Smith a liar - is that what you want?
the spirit I follow will cause you to love the brethren, but seek Christ's face personally... isn't that what the Savior wants?

[rewcox]

rewcoxs spirit calls Joseph Smith a liar - is that what you want?
the spirit I follow will cause you to love the brethren, but seek Christ's face personally... isn't that what the Savior wants?

Joseph Smith started the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, he was the first President and Prophet. Today President Monson is Christ's prophet. The church is Christ's kingdom on the earth. It is a good place to serve.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

rewcoxs spirit calls Joseph Smith a liar - is that what you want?
the spirit I follow will cause you to love the brethren, but seek Christ's face personally... isn't that what the Savior wants?

Joseph Smith started the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, he was the first President and Prophet.

And he is the only one who holds the keys for this dispensation as such... correct rewcox
Today President Monson is Christ's prophet.
This is in error, Brigham started the tradition of PRESIDENT of the church, never prophet. Prophet was introduced later in the sequence of prophet by eletion - He is definitely a Prophet in his own home, sure, but prophet of God, the fruits have yet to be manifested - help us find the fruits of a prophet of God and your beating of a quoted to death horse will start to have a little sway (ie. persuasion, love unfeigned). I hunger for the fruits of prophets, seers, and revelators, and none has provided, not even the Ensign...
The church is Christ's kingdom on the earth.
Error. Joseph attempted to establish the KINGDOM, but what we have now is the lesser CHURCH (same pattern in the scriptures, esp. with the comparable Moses/Joseph, in that Moses as Joseph attempted to get his people ready to behold Jehovah, but the people were darkened in their minds and wanted something lesser, and got what they wanted most - we are no different today as latter Day Saints, and as long as I'm living, I will do all I can to heard my Savior's voice and repent to one day build up the New Jerusalem, defending the constitution, a new city of enoch until that city comes back to amalgamate with the new one for the millenium. God is moving to make this a possability, but I feel it won't come until he puts his house (church) in order through a cleansing of the willful hypocrites whoever they be - God knows.
It is a good place to serve.
It was and still can be for sure, however correlation mixed with controlling policies (FEAR BASED POLICIES) kills the spontaneity of the spirit, which spirit leads us to pray, to sing, to worship, to dance, to help a neighbor, etc.., I say killed, but nothing can kill the power of the spirit, but woah unto those who call good evil and evil good, where leaders allow policy to guide them rather than the spirit of the Lord, esp. in behalf of the souls of the sons and daughters of God - calling good evil and evil good.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

It seems to me, reading the comments on this thread, that it isn't about fighting the church to many like myself, but it is the oft repeated irony of people quoting say, Lehi, or Nephi, or Alma Sr. and such seem to forget the irony of those particular examples leaving the accepted traditional narrative of the authority of the church and establishing it anew via the voice and authority of God. Not to even mention Jesus Christ himself, the renegade of the Jews, who re-established his own truths, leadership (the 12), and doctrines outside what was supposed to be the church of Moses...

I sustain the brethren as much as I sustain anyone, in love, hope, faith, and support. Where it gets out of hand (meaning away from the doctrine Christ defines as his doctrine, where anything more or less is of evil) is when man takes it upon themselves to force their fellow mankind to take oaths to them (what happened to long suffering and persuasion) in order to be found WORTHY of worshiping God in his temples.

This is the church of Jesus Christ rewcox, what it feels like to me is you often are stating it is the church of Monson, which we are warned about enough in the scriptures.

I get the thinking that so many here are adamant about - if you love Christ you will take an oath (sustaining as prophet seers and revelator) to the brethren and know they are chosen of God.

This is the error and has NOWHERE been shown by anyone quoting others to death with scripture or whatever. The doctrine of Christ is to come unto him and that indeed includes baptism, however, many here say that such baptism is impossible outside the holy church (hence the inquisition fits just fine in my mind), when again the ironies are plentiful in the Book of Mormon where the "holy" establishment is bypassed by a few humble followers of Christ and authority gained directly from God - not to forget John the Baptist and Christ himself vs. the then established holy order and D&C 121 inquisition that ultimately killed Christ for not following the then brethren.

I don't want to bypass the church I grew up in. I don't want to seek another route, but that is what the voice of Christ has lead me to do so far as PROPHET of my family with my PROPHETESS wife (which is DOCTRINAL!!!). For whatever reasons in God, the spirit gives me powerful witness against such man-doctrines as these here, stating that one must follow a man to follow God, and the spirit invites me often to cry against such for the sake of the broken hearts of my fellow mankind who are innocent before God and are caused to err by the precepts of men, or the fear of men damning them for not taking oaths unto man.

I honor man inasmuch as they honor Christ first, for he first loved us. Amen to the authority of any man who puts himself in a position to be honored in order for one to honor Christ and come unto him.

[rewcox]

It seems to me,

It's your choice to be outside the church, you are not sustaining the leaders by doing so. You also left the ordinances and covenants. You and others who think the church is in apostasy will have to learn the hard way.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

Those who are disaffected or at odds with the church have a tendency to want to express their disaffection publicly. When a person does this, they are moving in the wrong direction.

Careful rewcox, you just ^^^ described Lehi, publicly expressing his disaffection... Samuel the lamanite? Alma Sr? Jesus Christ the very Lord and Savior of mankind (we still is seen as the disaffected Jew to the majority of the Jews). Were they all moving in the wrong direction to you (please don't come back and quote the brethren or say the church is true, discuss please).

Laman and Lemuel followed this pattern. After a period of time, they were beyond feeling. Complaining and murmuring aren't helpful. Dredging up talks over 30 years old, discussing polygamy, kneeling during the sacrament prayers, etc are only used to promote disaffection. I know a couple of young women who resigned after reading the CES letter.

There is plenty of anti mormon stuff around. There is one true church, complete with authority, priesthood and ordinances.

Don't you see the irony in this rewcox? Laman and Lemuel followed their disaffected dad (Lehi) from the church-leadership - from the church of Jerusalem and all their rules, regulations, correlations, etc... Was Lehi moving in the wrong direction or was he following the SAME voice of the spirit out of the TRADITIONAL accepted norm??!?

You did not say the word Jesus once in your above statements, nor do you very often at all, it is mostly church, the church, the brethren, and pres. monson. Check yourself. Are you of the Church of Jesus Christ, or the Church of Monson? If of Jesus Christ, then why put Monson in the way? He is an oft inspired, great man, who liked to tell warm fuzzy stories that get put on plaques and are sold throughout the "kingdom" or mormondom... Let not thy right hand know what they left hand is doing, the reward is manifested plainly in all the good deeds of the "church" and President Monsons, his Golden years celebrations and all.

God indeed rewcox gives each of us what we want most... indeed, and it is up to each of us to take the Holy Spirit as our guide (nowhere does it say to take the president of the church as our guide) or be deceived to whatever degree of deception and error.

I am not stating I will make it, you won't, never have, I am however crying as Lehi did, against this false doctrine of follow the man or be damned, as that is what I have been told by leaders who have taken the Holy Manual as their guide to determine my worthiness to worship my God in His temples. A D&C 121 Amen to authority in such. May the Lord God come and cleanse his house and set it in order so one of the most beautiful families on earth can come back to His church to help establish his Kingdom, just as Jopseh attempted to do, before all this bull _ _ _ _ lies about him began with Brigham and continues from men who are supposed to know Christ and supposed to prophesy and SEE(r) the truth and defend it.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

It seems to me,

It's your choice to be outside the church, you are not sustaining the leaders by doing so. You also left the ordinances and covenants. You and others who think the church is in apostasy will have to learn the hard way.

Thanks brother D&C 121. This response you gave now is of the same spirit way too many leaders follow, which is now glaringly obvious - and that is telling your fellow mankind their standing before God, and your holy opinion of their personal standing before God, of ordinances and covenants sacredly personal and between the Father and His son or daughter. Amen to such authority, Amen and Amen and Amen!

I will take the road less travelled that brother Hinkley spoke of (what an irony, a lesser road travelled within the lesser road traveled), the road the voice of Christ asks me to walk on to Him.

[Robert Sinclair]

Hosea 14:8 is to help the church of the House of Ephraim, and not to harm it.♡

[rewcox]

It seems to me,

It's your choice to be outside the church, you are not sustaining the leaders by doing so. You also left the ordinances and covenants. You and others who think the church is in apostasy will have to learn the hard way.

Thanks brother D&C 121. This response you gave now is of the same spirit way too many leaders follow, which is now glaringly obvious - and that is telling your fellow mankind their standing before God, and your holy opinion of their personal standing before God, of ordinances and covenants sacredly personal and between the Father and His son or daughter. Amen to such authority, Amen and Amen and Amen!

I will take the road less travelled that brother Hinkley spoke of (what an irony, a lesser road travelled within the lesser road traveled), the road the voice of Christ asks me to walk on to Him.

i know you are firmly committed to your path, you consider yourself a Lehi. You have in reality just gone down a strange path. Try to say something good without complaining about the leader that offended you.

[BrotherOfMahonri]

It seems to me,

It's your choice to be outside the church, you are not sustaining the leaders by doing so. You also left the ordinances and covenants. You and others who think the church is in apostasy will have to learn the hard way.

Thanks brother D&C 121. This response you gave now is of the same spirit way too many leaders follow, which is now glaringly obvious - and that is telling your fellow mankind their standing before God, and your holy opinion of their personal standing before God, of ordinances and covenants sacredly personal and between the Father and His son or daughter. Amen to such authority, Amen and Amen and Amen!

I will take the road less travelled that brother Hinkley spoke of (what an irony, a lesser road travelled within the lesser road traveled), the road the voice of Christ asks me to walk on to Him.

i know you are firmly committed to your path, you consider yourself a Lehi. You have in reality just gone down a strange path. Try to say something good without complaining about the leader that offended you.

Offened me? no.... offended the spirit of God, or grieved the spirit of God, yes... So by offended - if you mean, I am offended when the spirit is offended by the D&C 121 authority of man, you are correct indeed. Now wasn't that positively doctrine?

And as to my path being strange??? what a compliment rewcox, thank you...

D&C 101:95

That I may proceed to bring to pass my act, my strange act, and perform my work, my strange work, that men may discern between the righteous and the wicked, saith your God.

I hope my pathway is strange to those who don't feel what I am sharing - I trust the humble followers of Christ will feel the "strangeness" of my current-God-lead pathway through and through.

[Sarah]

You either believe in a government of God or you don't.

So if you have a problem with current leadership like Vision does, then you have to deny the existence of any authority to baptize at this moment in time,


So Vision, if you feel our current leaders have strayed from the path, who has the authority to baptize?

Sarah your sincere post deserves a response. I'm not great at articulating my feelings in text so I will do my best.

I don't have a problem with the current leadership when the Holy Ghost confirms what they are saying is true. I have had many leadership callings some with keys some without. In my experience I can firmly state many decisions are made out of a get er done methodology. I have sat in many training meetings on a ward level, stake level, and regional level and have heard things that made the neck on my hair stand up, and I have had strong spiritual confirmations of truth. Over the course of the last 15 years I came to the conclusion that not everything done in the church is inspired because of my time spent in meetings and observing. I had lunch today with a friend who is a first counselor in his ward Bishopric and he shared an interesting observation. His ward just changed the RS, YW, and Primary leadership. What he observed and lamented is all they did was change the titles but the people did not change. They all just shuffled to a new calling but still in leadership. My friend expressed regret in not speaking up more about having other people get leadership callings. His words were it is so cliquish. I served in 2 bishoprics and witnessed the same thing. I call it the STP syndrome. Same Ten People shuffle through the leadership. My exposure has left me with questions, not answers.

Now to Authority. In the Priesthood there is authority and power. They should be mutually exclusive but they are not. The perfect example is the sealing ordinance. We are sealed for time and all eternity by the authority but the sealing does not take effect until we qualify through the power. Another example is this. One of my relatives was Peregrine Sessions. He was a journal writer. He was the 26th member of the church and came across the plains with the first wagon train. There are several journal entries of his where he mentioned people being raised from the dead on the trip. That is the Priesthood Authority and Power in action. How often today do we hear of people being raised from the dead? I have given countless blessing to the sick and most of them the person recovers but after they receive medical help as well. Did the person recover from the blessing or the antibiotics? I feel we have become so dependent on technology that we have forgotten the power, but that does not mean we have lost the authority.

A friend asked me why I stay in the church. My answer was this. I believe the BOM to be the word of good. I received that testimony of it's power in a critical time of my life and it changed me forever. I cannot deny it's power. I also know we need the ordinances to qualify for exaltation. The priesthood administers the ordinances and I can only partake of what is available to me today in my time. Have they changed, yes indeed. Does that mean that I did not receive them? I don't think so. I received what what was available to me and if something was taken out, well then that is the best I can do for myself. I also enjoy interacting with the members of my ward. I truly love them and care about most of them. I enjoy serving whenever, wherever, and whatever I can. It is in my dna to serve, I would do it no matter what church I belong to. I think that all we can offer each other is service. And finally Christ is my Redeemer and Savior. He lives.

Sarah please accept my humble response.

I do accept your response, and I feel you are sincere, but I don't understand why you would admit that this is the best we have, yet make comments that would lead people away from the Church which is the only church that has the saving ordinances.

I'm also sorry to hear about your experience with local leadership. In my experience in the Church, if it appears that there are only a handful of people serving in leadership callings, it is because they are the only ones who are able to fulfill those callings. But my experience has been different. I've seen a variety of people called from all backgrounds, and some are better than others in serving with the Holy Ghost as their guide. The impression I feel is that the members as a whole are much more prone to not put the Spirit or Priesthood to work in their lives and in their callings, as would our leading brethren if they were in the same position. I remember my husband telling me he was teaching seminary one morning when a visiting seventy came to the class. He and the students FELT something different as soon as he walked into the room. The students all commented about it when he left. I feel it too when they speak. I felt such humility from the three new apostles called. There is real power with these men that only comes through righteousness and being worthy to stand before the Lord. I wish I was there, but I think I'm like a lot of members, still hanging on to a few sinful behaviors that I'm not willing to completely let go of yet. I recently have made the firm determination to give away all my sin in order to know God. That's what he wants from all of us, and I truly believe our leading brethren that stand at the head of our Church are there.

So why are they not healing the sick in the streets like Peter? I was pondering this question and realized that both Christ and Peter and the early apostles were hated because of the miracles. Their lives were at stake after those events. Now, of course if God wanted to preserve their lives he could have, but men's agency trumps keeping every righteous person alive. So my thinking goes, that we are in a time when the the Lord is letting the Wheat and Tares grow together, and a time when the gospel must go forth to every nation, kindred, and tongue. That could not happen if the true power of the priesthood was broadcast over television because healings were taking place in the streets of down-town Salt Lake. I KNOW that the priesthood power is producing miracles in people's lives, and occasionally you'll read about these in the Ensign. I've had healing come from the Priesthood. I just don't broadcast it for all to see. Would it be a great missionary tool? I don't think so. When I've mentioned miracles and other signs to my non-member friends and family, they shrug and think it must not have been from God, or even if it was, it doesn't mean the Church is true.

[rewcox]

If you're looking for miracles, you don't need to look further than yourself.

If you're an elder, you have as much priesthood as President Monson. Read and learn from the BOM.

[bornfree]

VISION WROTE;

How often today do we hear of people being raised from the dead? I have given countless blessing to the sick and most of them the person recovers but after they receive medical help as well. Did the person recover from the blessing or the antibiotics? I feel we have become so dependent on technology that we have forgotten the power, but that does not mean we have lost the authority.

When the gospel was restored men's minds were enlightened. Is that the Lord's hand in healing people via the many new inovations discovered in the medical field? Yep

[Zathura]

If miracles have ceased its because faith has ceased.
The healing of sick, curing of blind, raising of dead by faith in Jesus was not replaced by modern technology, never will be.

[bornfree]

If miracles have ceased its because faith has ceased.
The healing of sick, curing of blind, raising of dead by faith in Jesus was not replaced by modern technology, never will be.

Okie dokie.

[Vision]

I do accept your response, and I feel you are sincere, but I don't understand why you would admit that this is the best we have, yet make comments that would lead people away from the Church which is the only church that has the saving ordinances.

Sarah Thank You. I believe that the Priesthood functions by itself and the church needs the Priesthood, but the Priesthood does not need the church. It's the best we have but who altered the ordinances?

If we read scripture that states God is an unchangeable being and he is the same yesterday, today and forever then why so many changes to the ordinances?

If God directs the Prophets but then God directed the Prophet that recorded those scriptures how do you reconcile that?

My answer is to take the warnings from the scriptures and heed them, to anchor myself in Christ and none else. I have more peace in my life now than I did when I was firmly in the Brethren are infallible camp. I am more patient with others, I feel a more unconditional love for others now, my marriage is much better, there are so many things in my life that are in harmony that I must be doing something right. Don't get me wrong I am still active, I serve when called and do my best to help those in need. Christ wouldn't need to return to set his in order if it wasn't out of order.

[marc]

Personally speaking, with regard to the OP, I define the "church" as the body. In the context of this post, fighting against the church, to me, is criticizing any member of the church. When I say member, the hand is not greater than the foot or the head. That said, because of what the Lord has taught me about what it means to possess charity, I resolved this year not to criticize, label or draw lines. Doing so does not add to my stature. These are not activities, which further my personal progress. They are activities, which only serve to divide and stir contention. Furthermore, what the Lord also taught me is to be without guile. So I do speak my mind. Therefore, it has been an important lesson for me to distinguish between criticizing on the one hand and on the other making observations when sharing something objectively (without such observations being critical). The honest in heart are not offended by such observations, though, nor are they offended by truth. In any case, I have simply stopped posting in almost all discussions, which either do not or are not helpful on my journey or else do nothing but stir contention.

[Zathura]

Personally speaking, with regard to the OP, I define the "church" as the body. In the context of this post, fighting against the church, to me, is criticizing any member of the church. When I say member, the hand is not greater than the foot or the head. That said, because of what the Lord has taught me about what it means to possess charity, I resolved this year not to criticize, label or draw lines. Doing so does not add to my stature. These are not activities, which further my personal progress. They are activities, which only serve to divide and stir contention. Furthermore, what the Lord also taught me is to be without guile. So I do speak my mind. Therefore, it has been an important lesson for me to distinguish between criticizing on the one hand and on the other making observations when sharing something objectively (without such observations being critical). The honest in heart are not offended by such observations, though, nor are they offended by truth. In any case, I have simply stopped posting in almost all discussions, which either do not or are not helpful on my journey or else do nothing but stir contention.

I would do well to follow your example.
I appreciate your input here.

[rewcox]

I have simply stopped posting in almost all discussions, which either do not or are not helpful on my journey or else do nothing but stir contention.

You lost the spirit?

If everyone did as you are, this site would dry up and Brian would have to close it down.