"Fighting Against The Church"

[rewcox]

Nah, rewxcox says you can't be born again without a testimony of modern leaders.
This is an apostate doctrine that teaches that you must have faith in a mortal man in order to be spiritually begotten.

I love my leaders and sustain them, but My spiritual rebirth was a result of my faith in Jesus, and is not connected to my leaders.

Say it right Stahura. You said you have been born again. Good. You also said you don't have a testimony of the leaders.

So you don't know that Thomas S. Monson is God's prophet on the earth, correct? And don't give me the wishy washy I sustain them. Tim Malone said the same thing, then resigned from the church.

Be bold.

[iWriteStuff]

Can i post? Testing testing

Roger, good buddy, you are cleared for takeoff. ;)

[Robert Sinclair]

And behold, none are exempt from this law who belong to the church of the living God-----

"Nevertheless, in your temporal things you shall be equal, and this not grudgingly, otherwise the abundance of the manifestations of the Spirit shall be witheld."

"For food and raiment; for an inheritance; for houses and for lands, in whatsoever circumstances I, the Lord, shall place them, and withersoever I, the Lord shall send them."

Good to set up this tower, and ensign, and light, as a sign of the true church of the living God, and get the money back from the exchangers, before the bridegroom cometh and find this tower not set up, and set this tower up, getting oil in your lamps, wicks fully trimmed and ready, answered the wedding invitation and come, with his bride brought out of the closet, as it is written in the scriptures given unto you, O House of Ephraim.♡

[iWriteStuff]

Can i post? Testing testing

Roger, good buddy, you are cleared for takeoff. ;)

Oops, I just suggested gfnelson was a pilot....

[Zathura]

Nah, rewxcox says you can't be born again without a testimony of modern leaders.
This is an apostate doctrine that teaches that you must have faith in a mortal man in order to be spiritually begotten.

I love my leaders and sustain them, but My spiritual rebirth was a result of my faith in Jesus, and is not connected to my leaders.

Say it right Stahura. You said you have been born again. Good. You also said you don't have a testimony of the leaders.

So you don't know that Thomas S. Monson is God's prophet on the earth, correct? And don't give me the wishy washy I sustain them. Tim Malone said the same thing, then resigned from the church.

Be bold.

Will you stop attacking me and urging me to leave the church? Heed the leader's advice. Don't call me faithless and push me away.

When you preach truth, I will like it and share it with everyone.

You posted apostate doctrine, and I will correct that false doctrine

When a person is Born of God, it's a result of faith in Jesus Christ.

When a person recieves a witness that Thomas Monson is a true Prophet, that's a separate matter that a person may or may not receive on a separate occasion.

A person can be Born of God without a witness that the current President is a true prophet, because being spiritually begotten was never dependant on your belief in prophets. In saying this, am I saying that prophets aren't needed? No, but you are apparently so obsessed with them that even that small of a statement hurts your feelings and you get over defensive.

I will say this on the pulpit at Sacrament meeting, and even the Bishop, Stake President, and Thomas S Monson will sustain my words.
Being born of God and receiving a remission of sins does not come as a result of your testimony of modern leaders, it comes as a result of faith in Jesus Christ and a broken heart and contrite spirit.

Try as hard as you want to think that I'm disregarding leaders and saying we don't need them, I never said that, I sustain them , seeking a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost that they are True Messengers.

I cried unto the Lord for a great time on my knees, refusing to get up until I received a remission of sins. I confessed every.single.sin that I could remember having ever committed in my life. Even then, nothing happened. I begged, I raised my voice, I put my forehead on the ground and asked for mercy. Nothing happened up until that point.
THEN, I remember the words of Alma, who said that he did not receive a remission of Sins until he cried out to Jesus.
I said JESUS , thou Son of God. Have mercy on me.
Immediately, fire and charity filled me from head to toe, and I felt enveloped in God's love, and felt as if someone were hugging me. I immediately felt my guilt swept away ( THIS DID NOT HAPPEN TO ME THE LAST TIME I HAD SUCH AN EXPERIENCE, AS THE LAST TIME I WAS ONLY FILLED WITH CHARITY, BUT DID NOT RECEIVE A REMISSION OF SINS) and felt to sing the song of redeeming love.

Afterwards, as I pondered on this, my chest burned within me and my mind reverted to the scripture in alma 38:8 that says :never, until I did cry out unto the Lord Jesus Christ for mercy, did I receive a remission of my sins.
When I thought of this, these words, accompanied with a more intense burning came: "You were born of God this day, and received the baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost"

This happened to me on my mission, when i went door to door every day preaching the Gospel of Christ, teaching them primarily the Gospel of Jesus and his Atonement, and then the Restoration and urging them to read the words of modern prophets and pray about them.

It's sad to me that you would suggest that I have not been born of God, as the Spirit has born witness to me. It's offensive to me that you would teach others that you cannot be born of God without a testimony of leaders.

Every single thing that you disagree with that I have said has been presented to my Bishop, and we talked about it, and he finds no fault in me as most of the things that I have said were already previously said by Modern Prophets.

Thomas S Monson will not agree with you when you say that you cannot be Born of God without a testimony of modern leaders.

[rewcox]

Answer the question, do you have a testimony that Thomas S. Monson is God's prophet on the earth?

Nah, rewxcox says you can't be born again without a testimony of modern leaders.
This is an apostate doctrine that teaches that you must have faith in a mortal man in order to be spiritually begotten.

I love my leaders and sustain them, but My spiritual rebirth was a result of my faith in Jesus, and is not connected to my leaders.

Say it right Stahura. You said you have been born again. Good. You also said you don't have a testimony of the leaders.

So you don't know that Thomas S. Monson is God's prophet on the earth, correct? And don't give me the wishy washy I sustain them. Tim Malone said the same thing, then resigned from the church.

Be bold.

Will you stop attacking me and urging me to leave the church? Heed the leader's advice. Don't call me faithless and push me away.

When you preach truth, I will like it and share it with everyone.

You posted apostate doctrine, and I will correct that false doctrine

When a person is Born of God, it's a result of faith in Jesus Christ.

When a person recieves a witness that Thomas Monson is a true Prophet, that's a separate matter that a person may or may not receive on a separate occasion.

A person can be Born of God without a witness that the current President is a true prophet, because being spiritually begotten was never dependant on your belief in prophets. In saying this, am I saying that prophets aren't needed? No, but you are apparently so obsessed with them that even that small of a statement hurts your feelings and you get over defensive.

I will say this on the pulpit at Sacrament meeting, and even the Bishop, Stake President, and Thomas S Monson will sustain my words.
Being born of God and receiving a remission of sins does not come as a result of your testimony of modern leaders, it comes as a result of faith in Jesus Christ and a broken heart and contrite spirit.

Try as hard as you want to think that I'm disregarding leaders and saying we don't need them, I never said that, I sustain them , seeking a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost that they are True Messengers.

I cried unto the Lord for a great time on my knees, refusing to get up until I received a remission of sins. I confessed every.single.sin that I could remember having ever committed in my life. Even then, nothing happened. I begged, I raised my voice, I put my forehead on the ground and asked for mercy. Nothing happened up until that point.
THEN, I remember the words of Alma, who said that he did not receive a remission of Sins until he cried out to Jesus.
I said JESUS , thou Son of God. Have mercy on me.
Immediately, fire and charity filled me from head to toe, and I felt enveloped in God's love, and felt as if someone were hugging me. I immediately felt my guilt swept away ( THIS DID NOT HAPPEN TO ME THE LAST TIME I HAD SUCH AN EXPERIENCE, AS THE LAST TIME I WAS ONLY FILLED WITH CHARITY, BUT DID NOT RECEIVE A REMISSION OF SINS) and felt to sing the song of redeeming love.

Afterwards, as I pondered on this, my chest burned within me and my mind reverted to the scripture in alma 38:8 that says :never, until I did cry out unto the Lord Jesus Christ for mercy, did I receive a remission of my sins.
When I thought of this, these words, accompanied with a more intense burning came: "You were born of God this day, and received the baptism of Fire and Holy Ghost"

This happened to me on my mission, when i went door to door every day preaching the Gospel of Christ, teaching them primarily the Gospel of Jesus and his Atonement, and then the Restoration and urging them to read the words of modern prophets and pray about them.

It's sad to me that you would suggest that I have not been born of God, as the Spirit has born witness to me. It's offensive to me that you would teach others that you cannot be born of God without a testimony of leaders.

Every single thing that you disagree with that I have said has been presented to my Bishop, and we talked about it, and he finds no fault in me as most of the things that I have said were already previously said by Modern Prophets.

Thomas S Monson will not agree with you when you say that you cannot be Born of God without a testimony of modern leaders.

[bornfree]

Can i post? Testing testing

Roger, good buddy, you are cleared for takeoff. ;)

LOL! the things you come up with kill me, thanks for the chuckle. Over and out, Roger?

[bornfree]

Can i post? Testing testing

You did it, I see words! I never tested well, it comes from a childhood experience.

[Sarah]

You either believe in a government of God or you don't. You either believe that the Father and Son delegate authority or you do not. The mainstream Christian thought these days is that you don't need organized religion or "anyone coming between you and Christ." I have these same conversations with my evangelical family members, and apparently this thought has crept into the hearts of the members.

While no one will deny the importance of having a personal relationship with God and your Savior, and being "born again" by the spirit, you also can't deny what the doctrine of Christ is as explained by Nephi - repentance, baptism, THEN baptism by fire, THEN endure to the end. So if you have a problem with current leadership like Vision does, then you have to deny the existence of any authority to baptize at this moment in time, and that means we are waiting for another "restoration of all things" so we can have worthy priesthood authority to perform the ordinances. This is not the case. We have it now.

There is no doubt that someone can have a spirit-filled experience before they are baptized by authority, but they can only go so far with that. If someone outside of the Church (or in the Church) has that type of converting spiritual experience he or she is now officially justified (forgiven of sin) and is naturally "in love" with the Savior. But they need to not just be in love, and experience a one-time encounter. They need to be "married" in a legal sense according to the laws administered in the government of God. Without legal standing you are only "in love" "born again" one time, but that is not enough. You still need to have the Gift of the Holy Ghost conferred by authority so that it may always be with you so you will be lead on the right path. This leads to Sanctification, or not only being forgiven of sin but being made as if it never occurred. You need the ordinance of the sacrament to consummate your covenants with God, which lead to having the Holy Ghost ALWAYS with you, which will lead to sanctification and being able to be in the presence of Christ. If you don't think you need the Church, you are wrong, because The One you love so much wants you to be a part of his bride, the Church.

So Vision, if you feel our current leaders have strayed from the path, who has the authority to baptize?

[Sarah]

So essentially what we see on this forum, and in the fight between Mormons and Christians, is one side saying "You have to be in love!" And on the other side, "You have to be married!" The truth is that you really need BOTH. The problem some Christians and some well-meaning members of the Church have is when they see members who are supposed to be married to the Lord not in love. They see hypocrisy in that. They simply need to realize that members who have not "fallen in love" or have been born again, again and again, are like they are in an arranged marriage. They haven't figured out yet their relationship yet. They've made the vow, or covenant, but haven't felt the gravity yet of their covenants. It's up to all of us members to really fall in love with the Savior, have the Holy Ghost as a constant companion, and receive personal revelation so we can make our Marriage to the Lord a marriage made in Heaven. Christians need to realize that our God is a God of order, and that just because you love him and he loves you, you need to GET MARRIED. Make it legal/binding/recognized in the Kingdom of God.

[h_p]

Answer the question, do you have a testimony that Thomas S. Monson is God's prophet on the earth?

And now we've come to the Spanish Inquisition portion of the great LDSFF war. Cool your jets, dude. This is getting out of hand.

[Zathura]

Answer the question, do you have a testimony that Thomas S. Monson is God's prophet on the earth?

And now we've come to the Spanish Inquisition portion of the great LDSFF war. Cool your jets, dude. This is getting out of hand.

Which is why I've ceased responding to him.

[Zathura]

Not only are there apostates within our midst, but there are also apostate doctrines that are sometimes taught in our classes and from our pulpits and that appear in our publications. And these apostate precepts of men cause our people to stumble. As the Book of Mormon, speaking of our day, states: “They have all gone astray save it be a few, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men” (2 Nephi 28:14). (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, Pg.89 90)

Thank God for this Prophet, who warned us.

[rewcox]

And now we've come to the Spanish Inquisition portion of the great LDSFF war. Cool your jets, dude. This is getting out of hand.

Actually, Stahura has said that I preach damning false doctrine. He has also said he has been born again, but does not have a testimony of the leaders.

If you have been born again, can you not get a testimony of the leaders, h_p?

I really don't care what people believe, but sowing seeds of doubt about the church and leaders is not healthy for the person sowing, or those who come here to check it out.

Edit: I just saw you are saying damning false doctrine also. Interesting.

[h_p]

If you have been born again, can you not get a testimony of the leaders, h_p?

I don't know Stahura. Where he is on his spiritual journey is not for me to judge.

Edit: I just saw you are saying damning false doctrine also. Interesting.

Does that implicate me in something? Not sure what you're implying here...

Look, all I'm saying is you seem to be developing an unhealthy antagonism towards the guy. Just...chill out. All you're doing is making yourself look small and petty.

[rewcox]

Those who are disaffected or at odds with the church have a tendency to want to express their disaffection publicly. When a person does this, they are moving in the wrong direction.

Laman and Lemuel followed this pattern. After a period of time, they were beyond feeling. Complaining and murmuring aren't helpful. Dredging up talks over 30 years old, discussing polygamy, kneeling during the sacrament prayers, etc are only used to promote disaffection. I know a couple of young women who resigned after reading the CES letter.

There is plenty of anti mormon stuff around. There is one true church, complete with authority, priesthood and ordinances.

[bornfree]

If you have been born again, can you not get a testimony of the leaders, h_p?

I don't know Stahura. Where he is on his spiritual journey is not for me to judge.

Edit: I just saw you are saying damning false doctrine also. Interesting.

Does that implicate me in something? Not sure what you're implying here...

Look, all I'm saying is you seem to be developing an unhealthy antagonism towards the guy. Just...chill out. All you're doing is making yourself look small and petty.

Not in my eyes. What I see is truth backed up with scripture, nothing small or petty about that! Thanks rewcox, you are appreciated by many.

[Robert Sinclair]

"If", the House of Ephraim returns to keep the written text of the fullness of God's law, they can be his true church, but "If" not, it is written they are as salt without savor, good for nothing but to be cast out, as they were in Shiloh, save the few among them who are the humble followers of Christ.

For none are exempt, from being equal in their temporal things, from the church of the living God, "All things common among them" as witnessed in the Book of Acts, of the first Twelve of Judah chosen of Jesus Christ, and as witnessed by the Twelve chosen of Manasseh, in 3rd and 4th Nephi, and none who know the truth of these things, can deny them before the judgement bar of Christ.

Good to acknowledge the truth of the true church of the living God, and fight not against it.♡

[h_p]

Not in my eyes. What I see is truth backed up with scripture, nothing small or petty about that! Thanks rewcox, you are appreciated by many.

Fair enough. I've said my piece, and don't want to argue it.

[Zathura]

If you have been born again, can you not get a testimony of the leaders, h_p?

I don't know Stahura. Where he is on his spiritual journey is not for me to judge.

Edit: I just saw you are saying damning false doctrine also. Interesting.

Does that implicate me in something? Not sure what you're implying here...

Look, all I'm saying is you seem to be developing an unhealthy antagonism towards the guy. Just...chill out. All you're doing is making yourself look small and petty.

Not in my eyes. What I see is truth backed up with scripture, nothing small or petty about that! Thanks rewcox, you are appreciated by many.

Please explain which scriptures back rewcox up.

He is teaching you that you have to first have a testimony of church leaders before you can be born of the Spirit and be spiritually begotten, receiving a remission of sins.

I welcome you to show me any scripture that teaches such an apostate doctrine.

[rewcox]

If you have been born again, can you not get a testimony of the leaders, h_p?

I don't know Stahura. Where he is on his spiritual journey is not for me to judge.

Edit: I just saw you are saying damning false doctrine also. Interesting.

Does that implicate me in something? Not sure what you're implying here...

Look, all I'm saying is you seem to be developing an unhealthy antagonism towards the guy. Just...chill out. All you're doing is making yourself look small and petty.

Not in my eyes. What I see is truth backed up with scripture, nothing small or petty about that! Thanks rewcox, you are appreciated by many.

Please explain which scriptures back rewcox up.

He is teaching you that you have to first have a testimony of church leaders before you can be born of the Spirit and be spiritually begotten, receiving a remission of sins.

I welcome you to show me any scripture that teaches such an apostate doctrine.

Thank you Book of Mormon!

3 And as many as would hear his word he did teach. And he taught them privately, that it might not come to the knowledge of the king. And many did believe his words.

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

[Zathura]

Thank you Book of Mormon!

3 And as many as would hear his word he did teach. And he taught them privately, that it might not come to the knowledge of the king. And many did believe his words.

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

In what world does this teach that you must first have a testimony of leaders in order to receive a remission of your sins and be spiritually begotten?

Are there invisible words there that I'm not seeing?

You lose credibility with each passing moment. smh.

[rewcox]

Thank you Book of Mormon!

3 And as many as would hear his word he did teach. And he taught them privately, that it might not come to the knowledge of the king. And many did believe his words.

4 And it came to pass that as many as did believe him did go forth to a place which was called Mormon, having received its name from the king, being in the borders of the land having been infested, by times or at seasons, by wild beasts.

In what world does this teach that you must first have a testimony of leaders in order to receive a remission of your sins and be spiritually begotten?

Are there invisible words there that I'm not seeing?

You lose credibility with each passing moment. smh.

Plenty of examples, like King Benjamin. The truth always wins.

We have taken care of
- Polygamy
- Kneeling during the Sacrament
- 31 year old talk
- and the Born Again paradox.

Be the best member you can be. Have a testimony of Christ, Joseph Smith, The Book of Mormon, The Church, and our leaders!

You can't beat the endorphins!!!

[bornfree]

If you have been born again, can you not get a testimony of the leaders, h_p?

I don't know Stahura. Where he is on his spiritual journey is not for me to judge.

Edit: I just saw you are saying damning false doctrine also. Interesting.

Does that implicate me in something? Not sure what you're implying here...

Look, all I'm saying is you seem to be developing an unhealthy antagonism towards the guy. Just...chill out. All you're doing is making yourself look small and petty.

Not in my eyes. What I see is truth backed up with scripture, nothing small or petty about that! Thanks rewcox, you are appreciated by many.

Please explain which scriptures back rewcox up.

He is teaching you that you have to first have a testimony of church leaders before you can be born of the Spirit and be spiritually begotten, receiving a remission of sins.

I welcome you to show me any scripture that teaches such an apostate doctrine.

King Benjamin's Speech

Chapter 5


The Saints become the sons and daughters of Christ through faith—They are then called by the name of Christ—King Benjamin exhorts them to be steadfast and immovable in good works. About 124 B.C.


1 And now, it came to pass that when king Benjamin had thus spoken to his people, he sent among them, desiring to know of his people if they believed the words which he had spoken unto them. Follow the Prophet, believe and have a testimony of your leaders.

2 And they all cried with one voice, saying: Yea, we believe all the words which thou hast spoken unto us; and also, we know of their surety and truth, because of the Spirit of the Lord Omnipotent, which has wrought a mighty change in us, or in our hearts, that we have no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. A testimony of his words

3 And we, ourselves, also, through the infinite goodness of God, and the manifestations of his Spirit, have great views of that which is to come; and were it expedient, we could prophesy of all things.

4 And it is the faith which we have had on the things which our king has spoken unto us that has brought us to this great knowledge, whereby we do rejoice with such exceedingly great joy. King Benjamin was their Prophet and King, and brought them great knowledge.

5 And we are willing to enter into a covenant with our God to do his will, and to be obedient to his commandments in all things that he shall command us, all the remainder of our days, that we may not bring upon ourselves a never-ending torment, as has been spoken by the angel, that we may not drink out of the cup of the wrath of God.

6 And now, these are the words which king Benjamin desired of them; and therefore he said unto them: Ye have spoken the words that I desired; and the covenant which ye have made is a righteous covenant. They believed in the Prophet and followed Him, would they have been born of the spirit if they hadn't followed their Prophet? This scripture answers your question, yes we need a testimony of our leaders to be born of Him and become His sons and daughters.

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters. They were born again because of faith and a testimony of their Prophet, King Benjamin.

[Vision]

You either believe in a government of God or you don't.

So if you have a problem with current leadership like Vision does, then you have to deny the existence of any authority to baptize at this moment in time,


So Vision, if you feel our current leaders have strayed from the path, who has the authority to baptize?

Sarah your sincere post deserves a response. I'm not great at articulating my feelings in text so I will do my best.

I don't have a problem with the current leadership when the Holy Ghost confirms what they are saying is true. I have had many leadership callings some with keys some without. In my experience I can firmly state many decisions are made out of a get er done methodology. I have sat in many training meetings on a ward level, stake level, and regional level and have heard things that made the neck on my hair stand up, and I have had strong spiritual confirmations of truth. Over the course of the last 15 years I came to the conclusion that not everything done in the church is inspired because of my time spent in meetings and observing. I had lunch today with a friend who is a first counselor in his ward Bishopric and he shared an interesting observation. His ward just changed the RS, YW, and Primary leadership. What he observed and lamented is all they did was change the titles but the people did not change. They all just shuffled to a new calling but still in leadership. My friend expressed regret in not speaking up more about having other people get leadership callings. His words were it is so cliquish. I served in 2 bishoprics and witnessed the same thing. I call it the STP syndrome. Same Ten People shuffle through the leadership. My exposure has left me with questions, not answers.

Now to Authority. In the Priesthood there is authority and power. They should be mutually exclusive but they are not. The perfect example is the sealing ordinance. We are sealed for time and all eternity by the authority but the sealing does not take effect until we qualify through the power. Another example is this. One of my relatives was Peregrine Sessions. He was a journal writer. He was the 26th member of the church and came across the plains with the first wagon train. There are several journal entries of his where he mentioned people being raised from the dead on the trip. That is the Priesthood Authority and Power in action. How often today do we hear of people being raised from the dead? I have given countless blessing to the sick and most of them the person recovers but after they receive medical help as well. Did the person recover from the blessing or the antibiotics? I feel we have become so dependent on technology that we have forgotten the power, but that does not mean we have lost the authority.

A friend asked me why I stay in the church. My answer was this. I believe the BOM to be the word of good. I received that testimony of it's power in a critical time of my life and it changed me forever. I cannot deny it's power. I also know we need the ordinances to qualify for exaltation. The priesthood administers the ordinances and I can only partake of what is available to me today in my time. Have they changed, yes indeed. Does that mean that I did not receive them? I don't think so. I received what what was available to me and if something was taken out, well then that is the best I can do for myself. I also enjoy interacting with the members of my ward. I truly love them and care about most of them. I enjoy serving whenever, wherever, and whatever I can. It is in my dna to serve, I would do it no matter what church I belong to. I think that all we can offer each other is service. And finally Christ is my Redeemer and Savior. He lives.

Sarah please accept my humble response.